The Johan Santana rumor mill (1 Viewer)

[Domination]

Wow, still only talks about the Sox and Yankees. I think both team's worst nightmare came to be today, with the Angels getting involved. The only thing worse might be the Dodgers.

That being said, the Angels deal supposedly based on Weaver and Wood is a much stronger starting point than that of the Sox or Yanks. All the players being talked about are none of the same ones as were being talked about for Cabrerra, so they could supposedly do both. Yanks and Sox better watch out, or the Angels will pass them by.

Doesn't anyone think that the Angels could get this done? Also it would be funny if the D-backs finish deal for Haren and Yanks and Sox miss out on both.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

This thread is actually pretty good for separating the casual homer fans from the more analytical baseball fans.Looking strictly at peripherals last year, Santana had a very strong case for the Cy. His last few years have been the most dominant of any pitcher since Pedro's peak years. There is no reason to downplay his worth.As for the poster who suggested that Santana is trying to get a contract this year because he is predicting a personal down year in 08, get real. People get injured, so you balance that risk with signing long term contracts. As I said, Santana just had one of the most dominating 4 year stretches ever by a pitcher. What would suggest that his value has much more room to improve? He is not required to sign a lowball deal if he is traded...he will become the highest paid pitcher ever, bet your ### on that. $150 Million bucks. Think about that. That comment about him wanting to sign now due to him predicting a down year for himself might be the most ridiculous thing in this entire thread, and there is no shortage of that to start with.

He is the best pitcher in baseball. He is worth a lot. There is no denying that. The question is how much.The problem the Yankees have is the Red Sox and history. Reegarding the Red Sox, they are already the better team coming off two titles in four years and have a young nucleus that could be good for a long time. If they get Santana they will be even better. A lot better. The Yankees, if they can, can't let that happen or for the first time in awhile they don't start the season on top of the hill.Regarding history, they have spent and spent and spent on the "best" pitcher in the game and it hasn't worked. Further, they usually (not always) buy their talent instead of grow it. But now there is home grown talent on the team akin to 95/96 that could be poised to lead the team, as a group, for another decade. Yankee fans, and I'm guessing the front office is catching on to this, want to have home grown talent. For all the good or great players that have been on the team lately, look who gets love - Mattingly, Jeter, Pettite, Posada, Williams - heck even "kids" like Shane Spencer and Shelly Duncan catch our eye and we want them to succeed and cheer louder then they probably deserve. Now we see Hughes, Joba and Kennedy joining the team as our version of the A's three headed monster, and it's engrossing. I have watched the Yankees since 2002 reload and reload and reload with big name big money players and neglect the growth of young players, save Cano and to some extent Melky although he is given more due then he deserves and they seem ready to trade him the second they can. They need to build a team, not a group of superstars. Hasn't that been the attack on the Yankees lately, especially from Red Sox fans? You can't have 25 $20 million players on the team and expect to win.The Red Sox are becomming victims of the success that they have taken from the Yankees. Keep reloading and reloading and push rebuilding to the side. It catches up to you. It caught up to the Yankees. Now, the Sox are probably - if they get Santana - going to win the title again at least one more time while he is on the team, while the Yankees couldn't do it since 2000, but it seems like history repeating itself.I don't want to see Santana on the Red Sox. But I don't want to give up everything that I've been wanting the Yankees to have for the past 5 years either. I understand how we say you can't let Kennedy stand in the way, and in the abstract you are right. (As an aside, this kid is going to be under so much pressure now if the Sox get him. Every time he pitches he will be called the guy that stood in the way of Johan becoming a Yankee. God help him.) But do you give up two of the three young pitchers that you built to lead your team for one guy, also including a pretty decent but not spectacular player that does breathe life into the dugout? I understand why the Yankees are hesitant and I'm not upset by it.It might completely off the wall, but to me, for the past couple of years, the Yankees didn't have the fire or drive to win. They didn't have the Paul O'Neil attitude to kill all the way to the title. There is no fun there. It's all some kind of corporate business void of the game aspect. Does trading away two kids for yet another high priced veteran stop that or elongate it? They won a few titles with the Scott Brocius's of the world, and haven't gotten close with the Alex Rodriguez's. Who knows?I won't be mad at the Yankees either way, but I'm still in the camp that says don't give up all three of those players. I hate losing Hughes alone, but you have to give to get. But I just don't know if I can pull the Hughes, Melky, Kennedy trigger. And I also don't know if I can stop someone from making me pull it either.

 

[Kraft...]

Angels offer is a smoke screen, I'm not concerned. The Yankees crawling back and including Kennedy at the last minute is the potential monkey wrench.

 

[doomsdaydoc]

i would be glad to see him go to the Angels. It would just be crushing to see him in Boston and have to deal with the rivalry with no hope of beating them.

 

[Domination]

Angels offer is a smoke screen, I'm not concerned. The Yankees crawling back and including Kennedy at the last minute is the potential monkey wrench.

As far as the Yankees, if they don't want to include Kennedy, then there was a supposed trade of 4 for 1. Why not deal Hughes, Cabrerra, Horne, and Tabata or other prospect. if the Sox can include other prospects, then why don't the Yanks.

 

[Funkley]

Angels offer is a smoke screen, I'm not concerned. The Yankees crawling back and including Kennedy at the last minute is the potential monkey wrench.

Maybe, maybe not. I think they have been holding back and focusing on Cabrera. If they are out of it then they have an awful lot to give for Santana. No doubt they've seen the offers and think "we can beat that and not gut ourselves."

 

[Alias]

Angels offer is a smoke screen, I'm not concerned. The Yankees crawling back and including Kennedy at the last minute is the potential monkey wrench.

Maybe, maybe not. I think they have been holding back and focusing on Cabrera. If they are out of it then they have an awful lot to give for Santana. No doubt they've seen the offers and think "we can beat that and not gut ourselves."

Can they afford the contract? They have some pretty big contracts already.

 

[shadyridr]

Angels offer is a smoke screen, I'm not concerned. The Yankees crawling back and including Kennedy at the last minute is the potential monkey wrench.

As far as the Yankees, if they don't want to include Kennedy, then there was a supposed trade of 4 for 1. Why not deal Hughes, Cabrerra, Horne, and Tabata or other prospect. if the Sox can include other prospects, then why don't the Yanks.

Cuz none of the prospects being offered by Bos (unless Ellsbury is involved) match Hughes

 

[Domination]

Angels offer is a smoke screen, I'm not concerned. The Yankees crawling back and including Kennedy at the last minute is the potential monkey wrench.

Maybe, maybe not. I think they have been holding back and focusing on Cabrera. If they are out of it then they have an awful lot to give for Santana. No doubt they've seen the offers and think "we can beat that and not gut ourselves."

I think you are 100% correct. I think they weren't planning on getting involved until they saw how low the going rate is for the best pitcher in baseball. Now they could go add them and still keep most of their farm system intact. This also might be the stepping stone for also getting Cabrerra and going for it all.

1 offseason...Hunter, Santana, Cabrerra WOW

 

[Kraft...]

Angels offer is a smoke screen, I'm not concerned. The Yankees crawling back and including Kennedy at the last minute is the potential monkey wrench.

Maybe, maybe not. I think they have been holding back and focusing on Cabrera. If they are out of it then they have an awful lot to give for Santana. No doubt they've seen the offers and think "we can beat that and not gut ourselves."

Word is the Cabrera talks have reignited. The rumor was probably a shill for both the Twins (To get the 5th player from the Sox) and the Angels (To get The Marlins to come back to the table on Cabrera).

 

[Michael Brown]

This thread is actually pretty good for separating the casual homer fans from the more analytical baseball fans.Looking strictly at peripherals last year, Santana had a very strong case for the Cy. His last few years have been the most dominant of any pitcher since Pedro's peak years. There is no reason to downplay his worth.As for the poster who suggested that Santana is trying to get a contract this year because he is predicting a personal down year in 08, get real. People get injured, so you balance that risk with signing long term contracts. As I said, Santana just had one of the most dominating 4 year stretches ever by a pitcher. What would suggest that his value has much more room to improve? He is not required to sign a lowball deal if he is traded...he will become the highest paid pitcher ever, bet your ### on that. $150 Million bucks. Think about that. That comment about him wanting to sign now due to him predicting a down year for himself might be the most ridiculous thing in this entire thread, and there is no shortage of that to start with.

He is the best pitcher in baseball. He is worth a lot. There is no denying that. The question is how much.The problem the Yankees have is the Red Sox and history. Reegarding the Red Sox, they are already the better team coming off two titles in four years and have a young nucleus that could be good for a long time. If they get Santana they will be even better. A lot better. The Yankees, if they can, can't let that happen or for the first time in awhile they don't start the season on top of the hill.Regarding history, they have spent and spent and spent on the "best" pitcher in the game and it hasn't worked. Further, they usually (not always) buy their talent instead of grow it. But now there is home grown talent on the team akin to 95/96 that could be poised to lead the team, as a group, for another decade. Yankee fans, and I'm guessing the front office is catching on to this, want to have home grown talent. For all the good or great players that have been on the team lately, look who gets love - Mattingly, Jeter, Pettite, Posada, Williams - heck even "kids" like Shane Spencer and Shelly Duncan catch our eye and we want them to succeed and cheer louder then they probably deserve. Now we see Hughes, Joba and Kennedy joining the team as our version of the A's three headed monster, and it's engrossing. I have watched the Yankees since 2002 reload and reload and reload with big name big money players and neglect the growth of young players, save Cano and to some extent Melky although he is given more due then he deserves and they seem ready to trade him the second they can. They need to build a team, not a group of superstars. Hasn't that been the attack on the Yankees lately, especially from Red Sox fans? You can't have 25 $20 million players on the team and expect to win.The Red Sox are becomming victims of the success that they have taken from the Yankees. Keep reloading and reloading and push rebuilding to the side. It catches up to you. It caught up to the Yankees. Now, the Sox are probably - if they get Santana - going to win the title again at least one more time while he is on the team, while the Yankees couldn't do it since 2000, but it seems like history repeating itself.I don't want to see Santana on the Red Sox. But I don't want to give up everything that I've been wanting the Yankees to have for the past 5 years either. I understand how we say you can't let Kennedy stand in the way, and in the abstract you are right. (As an aside, this kid is going to be under so much pressure now if the Sox get him. Every time he pitches he will be called the guy that stood in the way of Johan becoming a Yankee. God help him.) But do you give up two of the three young pitchers that you built to lead your team for one guy, also including a pretty decent but not spectacular player that does breathe life into the dugout? I understand why the Yankees are hesitant and I'm not upset by it.It might completely off the wall, but to me, for the past couple of years, the Yankees didn't have the fire or drive to win. They didn't have the Paul O'Neil attitude to kill all the way to the title. There is no fun there. It's all some kind of corporate business void of the game aspect. Does trading away two kids for yet another high priced veteran stop that or elongate it? They won a few titles with the Scott Brocius's of the world, and haven't gotten close with the Alex Rodriguez's. Who knows?I won't be mad at the Yankees either way, but I'm still in the camp that says don't give up all three of those players. I hate losing Hughes alone, but you have to give to get. But I just don't know if I can pull the Hughes, Melky, Kennedy trigger. And I also don't know if I can stop someone from making me pull it either.

all the way.

 

[TLEF316]

i would be glad to see him go to the Angels. It would just be crushing to see him in Boston and have to deal with the rivalry with no hope of beating them.

Sign me up for that right now. Hell, i don't care if the twins GIVE him to the angels. The Angels have no offense, other than Vlad, and will have to give at least 2 of their good positional guys to get Santana. As long as the Red Sox don't get him, i don't care where he does. If the Twins get Wood, Weaver, Mathis and another prospect for Johan, it will be like an early christmas. Yeah, the sox are still better, and they may get even better with a possible Haren trade. But I do not, under any circumstances, want to roll into a possible ALCS with Santana, Beckett, Dice- K, Buckholtz, Okajima and Papelbon staring me in the face. No thank you.

 

[[icon]]

He is the best pitcher in baseball. He is worth a lot. There is no denying that. The question is how much....I won't be mad at the Yankees either way, but I'm still in the camp that says don't give up all three of those players. I hate losing Hughes alone, but you have to give to get. But I just don't know if I can pull the Hughes, Melky, Kennedy trigger. And I also don't know if I can stop someone from making me pull it either.

GREAT posting YF That is frankly what makes this whole thing so bittersweet. Both the Yankees and the Red Sox are on the cusp of building what could be spectacularl young talent bases unlike that which these franchises haven't seen in ages (at least since the jeter era surfaced in NY... much longer for boston). There is certainly much more pleasure in watching a young homegrown kid like Pedrioa or Cano surface and mature into a greatr ballplayer than there is in hired guns coming out of the woodwork with little loyalty or chemistry in the clubhouse. As much as people knock the "idiots" thing for the Sox... this team is just that... and they play well together. They stay loose and leave it all out on the field when needed. I see Ellsbury being a key sparkplug that could take that to the next level and I'm loathe to see him go. That said... Santana is as good as it gets... and while he's a 18-20 win guy with the NY or BOS offense behind him... his real value comes in the playoffs. Facing Beckett and Santana twice each just isn't fair... throw in guys like Dice K and Schilling for the other games and there's realistically not a team out ther that could beat them in the playoffs.... especially with those pitchers backed by a solid bullpen and a 900 run offense. The yankees are in a tough spot.. if Boston gets Santana they are in very deep trouble for the next few years.... and unfortunately I think this Yankees squad needs to win now. Guys like Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Damon, Giambi, Matsui, etc aren't getting any younger and this team will need to flush and start to rebuild its nucleus in the next few years. They have a tough decision to make... do they try to make one more run with this core group.. or do they concede the next few years and start rebuilding now.

 

[Liquid Tension]

As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."

And, this has been my (and other's) point: It is Sandy Koufax, Hank. In this day and age, this is exactly the type of guy you bend over backwards to get. Equally-important, you've now allowed your AL East division rival to get him in the process.I don't understand why the calculus of this is so damn difficult.

Cobalt, I agree that you do what you have to get a guy like Santana when he is available (it is very rare to have the best pitcher inthe league available). I also agree that jhank should shut the F up

 

[Funkley]

Angels offer is a smoke screen, I'm not concerned. The Yankees crawling back and including Kennedy at the last minute is the potential monkey wrench.

Maybe, maybe not. I think they have been holding back and focusing on Cabrera. If they are out of it then they have an awful lot to give for Santana. No doubt they've seen the offers and think "we can beat that and not gut ourselves."

Word is the Cabrera talks have reignited. The rumor was probably a shill for both the Twins (To get the 5th player from the Sox) and the Angels (To get The Marlins to come back to the table on Cabrera).

Sure and that makes sense but it could easily be serving both purposes.

 

[LTsharks]

This thread is actually pretty good for separating the casual homer fans from the more analytical baseball fans.Looking strictly at peripherals last year, Santana had a very strong case for the Cy. His last few years have been the most dominant of any pitcher since Pedro's peak years. There is no reason to downplay his worth.As for the poster who suggested that Santana is trying to get a contract this year because he is predicting a personal down year in 08, get real. People get injured, so you balance that risk with signing long term contracts. As I said, Santana just had one of the most dominating 4 year stretches ever by a pitcher. What would suggest that his value has much more room to improve? He is not required to sign a lowball deal if he is traded...he will become the highest paid pitcher ever, bet your ### on that. $150 Million bucks. Think about that. That comment about him wanting to sign now due to him predicting a down year for himself might be the most ridiculous thing in this entire thread, and there is no shortage of that to start with.

He is the best pitcher in baseball. He is worth a lot. There is no denying that. The question is how much.The problem the Yankees have is the Red Sox and history. Reegarding the Red Sox, they are already the better team coming off two titles in four years and have a young nucleus that could be good for a long time. If they get Santana they will be even better. A lot better. The Yankees, if they can, can't let that happen or for the first time in awhile they don't start the season on top of the hill.Regarding history, they have spent and spent and spent on the "best" pitcher in the game and it hasn't worked. Further, they usually (not always) buy their talent instead of grow it. But now there is home grown talent on the team akin to 95/96 that could be poised to lead the team, as a group, for another decade. Yankee fans, and I'm guessing the front office is catching on to this, want to have home grown talent. For all the good or great players that have been on the team lately, look who gets love - Mattingly, Jeter, Pettite, Posada, Williams - heck even "kids" like Shane Spencer and Shelly Duncan catch our eye and we want them to succeed and cheer louder then they probably deserve. Now we see Hughes, Joba and Kennedy joining the team as our version of the A's three headed monster, and it's engrossing. I have watched the Yankees since 2002 reload and reload and reload with big name big money players and neglect the growth of young players, save Cano and to some extent Melky although he is given more due then he deserves and they seem ready to trade him the second they can. They need to build a team, not a group of superstars. Hasn't that been the attack on the Yankees lately, especially from Red Sox fans? You can't have 25 $20 million players on the team and expect to win.The Red Sox are becomming victims of the success that they have taken from the Yankees. Keep reloading and reloading and push rebuilding to the side. It catches up to you. It caught up to the Yankees. Now, the Sox are probably - if they get Santana - going to win the title again at least one more time while he is on the team, while the Yankees couldn't do it since 2000, but it seems like history repeating itself.I don't want to see Santana on the Red Sox. But I don't want to give up everything that I've been wanting the Yankees to have for the past 5 years either. I understand how we say you can't let Kennedy stand in the way, and in the abstract you are right. (As an aside, this kid is going to be under so much pressure now if the Sox get him. Every time he pitches he will be called the guy that stood in the way of Johan becoming a Yankee. God help him.) But do you give up two of the three young pitchers that you built to lead your team for one guy, also including a pretty decent but not spectacular player that does breathe life into the dugout? I understand why the Yankees are hesitant and I'm not upset by it.It might completely off the wall, but to me, for the past couple of years, the Yankees didn't have the fire or drive to win. They didn't have the Paul O'Neil attitude to kill all the way to the title. There is no fun there. It's all some kind of corporate business void of the game aspect. Does trading away two kids for yet another high priced veteran stop that or elongate it? They won a few titles with the Scott Brocius's of the world, and haven't gotten close with the Alex Rodriguez's. Who knows?I won't be mad at the Yankees either way, but I'm still in the camp that says don't give up all three of those players. I hate losing Hughes alone, but you have to give to get. But I just don't know if I can pull the Hughes, Melky, Kennedy trigger. And I also don't know if I can stop someone from making me pull it either.

all the way.

 

[Funkley]

Not sure I agree with the fire or drive to win part. Look at their 2nd half last year and tell me they weren't driven to win. If anything, they ran out of gas and were an ace short.

 

[Kraft...]

Angels offer is a smoke screen, I'm not concerned. The Yankees crawling back and including Kennedy at the last minute is the potential monkey wrench.

Maybe, maybe not. I think they have been holding back and focusing on Cabrera. If they are out of it then they have an awful lot to give for Santana. No doubt they've seen the offers and think "we can beat that and not gut ourselves."

Word is the Cabrera talks have reignited. The rumor was probably a shill for both the Twins (To get the 5th player from the Sox) and the Angels (To get The Marlins to come back to the table on Cabrera).

Sure and that makes sense but it could easily be serving both purposes.

I find the Yanks swooping back in last minute to be much more probable than the Angels scenario.

 

[Liquid Tension]

As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."

And, this has been my (and other's) point: It is Sandy Koufax, Hank.

For what it's worth, Sandy Koufax broke down and never pitched after age 31.Alright so admittedly, that was just to stir the pot...but in all seriousness, the list of pitchers who have succeeded after signing mega-deals over the past 10 years is an extremely short one. The Yankees haven't been the only team burned by this either. Some of you guys seem to think that Santana is somehow immune to injury because he's been healthy so far. He's also pitched as a full-time starter for only about 4.5 years and isn't built like Clemens or Schilling, or even Smoltz.

If you tell me that it doesn't matter how well he pitches in years 4 and 5 and 6 of the contract, I have to disagree. This is very key to my argument, but I don't think the Yankees are ready to win right now anyway, with or without Santana. I think their window is going to be from 2010-2015 with the younger talent they're building up. The bullpen still won't be all that good in 2008, and they've still got some old slow guys that will again sit around and wait for 3-run HRs in October (which doesn't work). So I think they need to worry about a guy who could fall off a cliff in 2-3 years, because THAT'S when they'd need him.

Best offense in baseball (scored 9% more runs than 2nd place) makes you ready to win now even with mediocre pitching. Please have an open mind when I say this...People can always say good pitching beats good hitting but that is really is not a reality. Yes, when a pitcher throws a great game it is hard to hit, but if you are locked in as a hitter you can hit good pitching. Why was Boston able to hit Carmona and the Yanks didn't touch him? It was because Boston hit better than the Yanks. The Yanks picked a bad time to slump and swung at bad pitches and let good ones go for strikes. This discussion would take us off topic, but it is greatly detailed as postseason you play for one run more etc..., but don't discount an offense as it is as important as pitching, otherwise the Braves would have won a few WS with all their titles. It is too easy when people say they didn't win because they didn't have pitching, but isn't it possible that it was good hitting that beat the pitching? It is just the way you look at it.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Let me try one more scenario. Maybe some players want as much money as possible but also want to win? Makes obvious sense...If you are Santana, you would rather play in NY than Boston (Torii Hunter told us that and NY is a much bigger following). Now if you get traded to NY the Yanks have depleted some of their young talent. if you become a free agent there is a very good chance you get more money because teams don't have to give up their young talent and would pay more for your services.

therefore, if you are Santana, you could get a little more money but also go to a team that has more talent on it if you wait a year.

the downside is injury, but you could get insurance.

Just a thought as Santana could say no to any trade.

What are you trying to say? If Santana doesn't get dealt, the Sox would still have more talent than the Yankees this year and next.

If Santana is on the Yanks the Yanks are a better team, if Santana is on the RedSox they are a better team

 

[Capella]

I'm really looking forward to the Hank Steinbrenner era.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I'm really looking forward to the Hank Steinbrenner era.

Not a big fan so far

 

[Liquid Tension]

Let me try one more scenario. Maybe some players want as much money as possible but also want to win? Makes obvious sense...If you are Santana, you would rather play in NY than Boston (Torii Hunter told us that and NY is a much bigger following). Now if you get traded to NY the Yanks have depleted some of their young talent. if you become a free agent there is a very good chance you get more money because teams don't have to give up their young talent and would pay more for your services.therefore, if you are Santana, you could get a little more money but also go to a team that has more talent on it if you wait a year.the downside is injury, but you could get insurance.Just a thought as Santana could say no to any trade.

So is your blog a SciFi blog by any chance?

I said he would get insurance, but he would make a lot more money...it was just a different spin (some opeople said the Twins would keep him so...)

 

[Liquid Tension]

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 2:46pm: According to Sean McAdam, the Twins will also meet with the Angels this afternoon to discuss Santana. The Twins would want Jered Weaver and Brandon Wood for starters. McAdam says the Red Sox and Twins haven't spoken since this morning. Meanwhile Joe Christensen says there's lobby buzz about the Red Sox/Twins deal becoming a 5-for-1.

OK Now..... That's a lot different.

I know what everyone thinks of NY sports radio but, the concensus seems that the Yankees should not give up Kennedy AND Hughes..

Stephen A. gets on and Raves about how the Yankees just #### the bed and made the worst move (non-move) in the history of sports - then he's asked if he'd give up Hughes and Kennedy and he say's NO.....

Mike and the Mad dog are split of course... Both think Hughes AND Kennedy are too much but, Dog says you can't let him go to Boston......

Lots of Yankee fans willing to rely on the 3 young pitchers........

Little to no talk about the minor leaguers in these deals so far.

The NY radio guys don't have a clue about baseball

 

[[icon]]

LATEST NEWS:

Angels are definitely still involved:

4:49 p.m., from Jayson Stark

• The Twins and Angels continue to talk about a Johan Santana trade. Many of the same players mentioned in the Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes -- Howie Kendrick, Brandan Wood, Nick Adenhart, and possibly Jeff Mathis or Reggie Willits -- would be included in a package for Santana

---

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=286

Twins wanted this deal wrapped up today.. they are eager to deal and move on.

Yankees have ceased meetings at this time and have apologized for Hank the Tank's "tampering"

---

There is some sentiment on forums that the Angels are in this to drive up the price for the Sox and are not paricularly serious about actually obtaining Santana... some thoughts are that they are tired of Boston beating then annually and would like to see an Ellsbury + Lester deal to deplete some of the Sox prospects. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Balco]

Jayson Stark seems to think its dead:

With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina.

That rotation sucks. I can't believe any Yankee fan would be happy going into the season with that.

I agree, there are a lot of question marks but this rotation is far from "sucks".

No, that rotation pretty much is terrible.I like Wang as a # 2, but the rest? Mussina is done. Pettite is a serviceable # 4, and there are 3 rookies! That is a terrible rotation. Pretty much the worst in the East, although Baltimore is probably worse, especially if the let Bedard go.

 

[[icon]]

For the record if the Yankees were to sweep back in with Kennedy thrown in, it would set a pretty comical precedent for the Hank the Tank era:

WE WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH AROD IF HE OPTS OUT

DEADLINE FOR SANTANA IS MONDAY. THAT'S IT..AND NO KENNEDY.

Man of his word or someone to ignore every time he opens his mouth... we'll see as this drills down.

 

[Alias]

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.

 

[Balco]

I'm really looking forward to the Hank Steinbrenner era.

 

[Alias]

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6970

 

[[icon]]

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.

This makes me nervous... I REALLY hope it's not Ellsbury. REALLY REALLY hope it's not Ellsbury....

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.

This makes me nervous... I REALLY hope it's not Ellsbury. REALLY REALLY hope it's not Ellsbury....

Hard to believe they'd take that group tihotu him, but who knows...Lester, Crisp, Masterson and Kalish would be a GREAT trade for the Sox

 

[BoulderBob]

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.

This makes me nervous... I REALLY hope it's not Ellsbury. REALLY REALLY hope it's not Ellsbury....

Don't get your hopes up...he makes the trade halfway tolerable for the Twins...

 

[[icon]]

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.

This makes me nervous... I REALLY hope it's not Ellsbury. REALLY REALLY hope it's not Ellsbury....

Don't get your hopes up...he makes the trade halfway tolerable for the Twins...

Correct but Kalish / Ellsbury is pretty redundant. kalish is a speedy CF that is a couple years away, but would be blocked by Ellsbury. Crisp + Kalish makes more sense as Crisp is a short term stopgap until Kalish is ready. What I'm reading is the Twins are higher on Kalish than they were on Lowrie (who it now appears they feel might not be ready for primetime just yet).

All speculation at this point obviously.

 

[Sammy3469]

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.

This makes me nervous... I REALLY hope it's not Ellsbury. REALLY REALLY hope it's not Ellsbury....

Hard to believe they'd take that group tihotu him, but who knows...Lester, Crisp, Masterson and Kalish would be a GREAT trade for the Sox

Yup...sort of surprised Lowrie isn't involved, but it would make sense if the CF is Ellsbury. They may also be bickering over if they include Ellsbury giving the Sox a lower prospect back or how much cash they'd include with Crisp.Having said all that an Angels package of Wood and Weaver has to be very tempting.

 

[[icon]]

If it is indeed an issue of cash... christ... eat half of Coco's contract and get this done. This team is profitable..... but money can't buy kids like Ellsbury.

 

[guru_007]

If it is indeed an issue of cash... christ... eat half ALL of Coco's contract and get this done. This team is profitable..... but money can't buy kids like Ellsbury.

 

[[icon]]

Gammons is reporting Kalish as a 5th player though I don't know if that's just old news.

Lester / Cooc / Masterson / Lowrie / Kalish is getting pretty damn rich for the rights to sign even the best pitcher in baseball to a longer term $150MM deal....

I hope this doesn't piss Beckett off too... he's gotta feel like he's been jobbed... making less than half of what santana will make over the next 3 years... hope the sox would keep him as the opening day starter and let him start game 1 in a short series.

 

[Sammy3469]

If it is indeed an issue of cash... christ... eat half of Coco's contract and get this done. This team is profitable..... but money can't buy kids like Ellsbury.

sure it can...600,000 just bought Kalish in the last draft....which is another reason the Yankees are nuts pushing for him harder

 

[Alias]

Angels GM Tony Reagins just told reporters that there was no truth to Angels being involved in Johan Santana negotiations. Said he never talked to Twins.

 

[Alias]

Gammons is reporting Kalish as a 5th player though I don't know if that's just old news.

Lester / Cooc / Masterson / Lowrie / Kalish is getting pretty damn rich for the rights to sign even the best pitcher in baseball to a longer term $150MM deal....

I hope this doesn't piss Beckett off too... he's gotta feel like he's been jobbed... making less than half of what santana will make over the next 3 years... hope the sox would keep him as the opening day starter and let him start game 1 in a short series.

reports are now that Kalish might be subbed in for Lowrie or another guy, not that he's being added as a 5th.

 

[Domination]

Angels GM Tony Reagins just told reporters that there was no truth to Angels being involved in Johan Santana negotiations. Said he never talked to Twins.

Everyone better hope this is the case, but it might change now that the Tigers have gotten Willis and Cabrerra.

 

[Redwes25]

Angels GM Tony Reagins just told reporters that there was no truth to Angels being involved in Johan Santana negotiations. Said he never talked to Twins.

Everyone better hope this is the case, but it might change now that the Tigers have gotten Willis and Cabrerra.

Agreed, I would not be surprised if Angels changed there focus to Santana and they have more players to offer than the Red Sox or Yanks.

 

[Reaper]

For the record if the Yankees were to sweep back in with Kennedy thrown in, it would set a pretty comical precedent for the Hank the Tank era:WE WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH AROD IF HE OPTS OUTDEADLINE FOR SANTANA IS MONDAY. THAT'S IT..AND NO KENNEDY. Man of his word or someone to ignore every time he opens his mouth... we'll see as this drills down.

But, what's the difference if he gets his guy in the end It really doesn't bother me..... With Arod, AT THE TIME with the whole opt out-thing with the Texas money, it was the logical thing to say and I think most of here would have said the same thing... Like: "Hey, we have this extra 21 million here, lets make the deal WITH that money NOW.. "or else"".. You just have to do and say anything you can to push the deal at that time for that money.just posturing..... And there was always the caveat that Arod had to grovel and in the end maybe look a bit better to some Yankee fans.This latest "Deadline" is worse but, whatever..... I give him 1 for 2....Also, Old time Yankee fans went through a TON with George... This isn't much yet, IF he builds a good team, George was a ##### through out the 80's to mid 90's and won nothing till he was banished.

 

[David Yudkin]

Boston Globe reporting the Angels have not been involved . . .

"Angels GM Tony Reagins just told reporters that there was no truth to Angels being involved in Johan Santana negotiations. Said he never talked to Twins."

 

[Wrigley]

wow, there is nothing wrong with baseball at all

Minimum salaries are not to blame here

Go figure, NYY and Red Sox are the only bidders.

Who would have figured.

 

[shadyridr]

There's at least 20 pages of Jacoby Ellsbury jokes on NYYFans.com. Some of them are pretty funny (jokes are similar to the Chuck Norris jokes saying Ellsbury is God's gift to baseball).

 

[icon]

LATEST NEWS:

http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/neal/

Unless there's a sleeper team, it leaves the Twins to deal with the Red Sox for either Jacoby Ellsbury and prospects or John Lester and prospects. The Twins are Red Sox are expected to resume discussions tonight.

One of my hard-to-get but reliable sources told me around 7:20 p.m. that the teams were still haggling over names. Hmm.

---

http://2007springtraining.blogspot.com/200...long-night.html

NASHVILLE, Tenn. – Boston general manager Theo Epstein just held a briefing session with the team’s beat reporters, and while he wouldn’t comment on what’s being talked about, he said he expected negotiations to go “well into the night,” presumably with the Twins. He also said the teams are being flexible, that no “final offers” have been made.

-- Phil Miller

Posted by Pioneer Press at 7:00 PM

----

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...t_at_the_1.html

The Red Sox front office types have been at dinner for the time being, putting a hold on trade talks. But they will convene at the organization's suite here in the Opryland hotel at midnight.

Presumably that would place the movers and shakers on standby for further trade talks with the Twins.

Could be another long night...

 

[icon]

UPDATE (not much of one):

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...as/extra_bases/

If the Sox do not trade for Johan Santana, an outcome last night as plausible as a deal going down, it may stem in part from some ambivalence on the part of club officials on whether they really want to do it. Theo Epstein and Co. enjoy watching the kids develop and win--going out and signing Santana makes them more like the Yankees. And surprisingly, there might be a greater willingness, at least on the part of some on the baseball ops side, to let Jacoby Ellsbury go in a Santana deal, and hold onto Lester, the belief being that 1) Ellsbury's value will never be higher and 2) Lester may have a higher upside than he's given credit for. At the same time, the Sox are well aware of the attachment many fans already have developed to Ellsbury. On the other hand, how do you pass up the chance to acquire Santana, a pitcher as special as Pedro Martinez was a decade ago?

These are the thoughts that get kicked around while waiting to see if anything develops at the midnight gathering of the Sox brass, development people and scouts.

 

[Alias]

"I know there's a lot of speculation that we're close to something big," Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein said on Tuesday evening, according to The Associated Press. "Until we reach an agreement, then we're not that close."

Sounds like Theo may be setting people's expectations in case this doesn't happen.