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The Johan Santana rumor mill (1 Viewer)

UPDATE (not much of one):

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...as/extra_bases/

If the Sox do not trade for Johan Santana, an outcome last night as plausible as a deal going down, it may stem in part from some ambivalence on the part of club officials on whether they really want to do it. Theo Epstein and Co. enjoy watching the kids develop and win--going out and signing Santana makes them more like the Yankees. And surprisingly, there might be a greater willingness, at least on the part of some on the baseball ops side, to let Jacoby Ellsbury go in a Santana deal, and hold onto Lester, the belief being that 1) Ellsbury's value will never be higher and 2) Lester may have a higher upside than he's given credit for. At the same time, the Sox are well aware of the attachment many fans already have developed to Ellsbury. On the other hand, how do you pass up the chance to acquire Santana, a pitcher as special as Pedro Martinez was a decade ago?

These are the thoughts that get kicked around while waiting to see if anything develops at the midnight gathering of the Sox brass, development people and scouts.
Hey Icon, I know it's not coming from you and that you are just quoting reports, so this is nothing against you. And it's sort of going off on a bit of a tangent..but this is like the 4th or 5th time I'm hearing about how getting Santana now would be like getting Pedro then. It's not even close though.When Boston acquired Pedro after the 1997 season, he had just turned 26. He was coming off his BEST season, a season in which he struck out over 300 guys and threw 13 complete games while averaging 7.8 IP per start. Santana will be 29 by opening day, coming off his WORST season, a season in which his K/BB numbers declined while his HR rate rose, he threw 1 CG, and averaged 6.6 IP per start (or, more than a full inning less than Pedro). Again, not saying there's any pitcher out there right now who is more talented than Santana...but Pedro Martinez was a once-in-a-lifetime pitcher that we may never see again. Hopefully people will start to realize that being the CURRENT best doesn't necessarily make Santana an all-time legend. Anyone who is deluding themselves into thinking that the best of Johan is yet to come is in for a rude awakening. He's the best bet in baseball right now to be amongst the top 5 pitchers over the next three years, and if he can stay healthy he's got an outside shot at the HOF, but he's not going to get BETTER as he gets on the other side of 30.

 
Sox Fans, what will you feel if after all this, a deal doesn't come down?

Thanks to Hankenstein, we've had a rather unusual inside look at the nature of the Yankee dealings, and I think the majority of fans are ok with this deal not being done, given the accepted demand of Phil, IPK, Melky plus.

My thinking is all along, the Sox have been in this to drive up the Yankee price, and had no intention of making the financial commitment to him. Their play was so strong, it looks to have knocked out the Yankees, but now there are grumblings and whispers the Sox don't want to part with all the kids necessary to make this happen. Can't say I blame them, but my curiousity is in the Sox fans who look like they've gotten pretty pumped at this idea. Will you feel cheated if they don't make it happen at this point?

 
Sox Fans, what will you feel if after all this, a deal doesn't come down?Thanks to Hankenstein, we've had a rather unusual inside look at the nature of the Yankee dealings, and I think the majority of fans are ok with this deal not being done, given the accepted demand of Phil, IPK, Melky plus. My thinking is all along, the Sox have been in this to drive up the Yankee price, and had no intention of making the financial commitment to him. Their play was so strong, it looks to have knocked out the Yankees, but now there are grumblings and whispers the Sox don't want to part with all the kids necessary to make this happen. Can't say I blame them, but my curiousity is in the Sox fans who look like they've gotten pretty pumped at this idea. Will you feel cheated if they don't make it happen at this point?
I think most Red Sox fans are in the same boat as the Yankees, so long as he does not go to a team in division we are happy. It looks like a lot of false information came out the last few days, what a mess:
It seems as if most of the information the media has put out, apart from two offers and the standard "nothing's happened yet" has turned out to be false. Kennedy's inclusion: false. Kalish's inclusion: false. Deal with Sox basically done: false. Teams close: false according to Theo's quote. Ellsbury and Lester in one deal: false. Ellsbury's inclusion: false when first reported. Angels involved: false.
 
Wow...

Klapisch

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

It wasn't money, it wasn't Ian Kennedy, nor was it the haggling over a third prospect that kept the Yankees from acquiring Johan Santana. When GM general manager Brian Cashman called the Twins at 2 p.m. on Tuesday to withdraw from the Santana sweepstakes, it was because losing Phil Hughes had become too great of a trauma for the Yankees to absorb.

Madden

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Olney on Mike & Mike

- Doesn't think Twins will accept current deal with Red Sox.

- Thinks the Yankees are really out of the running for good.

 
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Wow...

Klapisch

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

It wasn't money, it wasn't Ian Kennedy, nor was it the haggling over a third prospect that kept the Yankees from acquiring Johan Santana. When GM general manager Brian Cashman called the Twins at 2 p.m. on Tuesday to withdraw from the Santana sweepstakes, it was because losing Phil Hughes had become too great of a trauma for the Yankees to absorb.

Madden

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Olney on Mike & Mike

- Doesn't think Twins will accept current deal with Red Sox.

- Thinks the Yankees are really out of the running for good.
Wow what? more speculation?
 
Wow...

Klapisch

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

It wasn't money, it wasn't Ian Kennedy, nor was it the haggling over a third prospect that kept the Yankees from acquiring Johan Santana. When GM general manager Brian Cashman called the Twins at 2 p.m. on Tuesday to withdraw from the Santana sweepstakes, it was because losing Phil Hughes had become too great of a trauma for the Yankees to absorb.

Madden

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Olney on Mike & Mike

- Doesn't think Twins will accept current deal with Red Sox.

- Thinks the Yankees are really out of the running for good.
Wow what? more speculation?
Nice selective bolding, let me help you out...So the Yankees bailed because they think Phil Hughes is the second coming... :excited:

 
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Wow...

Klapisch

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

It wasn't money, it wasn't Ian Kennedy, nor was it the haggling over a third prospect that kept the Yankees from acquiring Johan Santana. When GM general manager Brian Cashman called the Twins at 2 p.m. on Tuesday to withdraw from the Santana sweepstakes, it was because losing Phil Hughes had become too great of a trauma for the Yankees to absorb.

Madden

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Olney on Mike & Mike

- Doesn't think Twins will accept current deal with Red Sox.

- Thinks the Yankees are really out of the running for good.
Wow what? more speculation?
Nice selective bolding, let me help you out...So the Yankees bailed because they think Phil Hughes is the second coming... :excited:
I don't any help, but thanks Alias. Money, Hughes - hey, let's write our stories so we are correct no matter what the real reason was. Let me help you out here, go read this entire thread and get back to me on the % of accurate reporting on what was going to happen and the reasons why.edit to say:

Actually, just go read your post at 2:44am today. Sorry, you don't need any help, you figured it out, but just forgot.

 
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Wow...

Klapisch

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

It wasn't money, it wasn't Ian Kennedy, nor was it the haggling over a third prospect that kept the Yankees from acquiring Johan Santana. When GM general manager Brian Cashman called the Twins at 2 p.m. on Tuesday to withdraw from the Santana sweepstakes, it was because losing Phil Hughes had become too great of a trauma for the Yankees to absorb.

Madden

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Olney on Mike & Mike

- Doesn't think Twins will accept current deal with Red Sox.

- Thinks the Yankees are really out of the running for good.
Wow what? more speculation?
Nice selective bolding, let me help you out...So the Yankees bailed because they think Phil Hughes is the second coming... :excited:
I don't any help, but thanks Alias. Money, Hughes - hey, let's write our stories so we are correct no matter what the real reason was. Let me help you out here, go read this entire thread and get back to me on the % of accurate reporting on what was going to happen and the reasons why.
Well we have two sources here and it makes sense, do you have a better reason why the Yankees backed out?Hughes was a great prospect and granted these stats are only after his first year in the bigs but...

5 and half innings per start, 4.46 ERA, 7.2 K/9, 1.28 WHIP, and a .313 BA against

Is hardly something to consider Ace material or in this case backing out of a deal for an Ace.

 
Gammons is reporting Kalish as a 5th player though I don't know if that's just old news. Lester / Cooc / Masterson / Lowrie / Kalish is getting pretty damn rich for the rights to sign even the best pitcher in baseball to a longer term $150MM deal.... I hope this doesn't piss Beckett off too... he's gotta feel like he's been jobbed... making less than half of what santana will make over the next 3 years... hope the sox would keep him as the opening day starter and let him start game 1 in a short series.
He shouldn't have had an ERA of 5 the year he was negotiating or he could have taken a one year deal
 
LATEST NEWS:

http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/neal/

Unless there's a sleeper team, it leaves the Twins to deal with the Red Sox for either Jacoby Ellsbury and prospects or John Lester and prospects. The Twins are Red Sox are expected to resume discussions tonight.

One of my hard-to-get but reliable sources told me around 7:20 p.m. that the teams were still haggling over names. Hmm.

---

http://2007springtraining.blogspot.com/200...long-night.html

NASHVILLE, Tenn. – Boston general manager Theo Epstein just held a briefing session with the team’s beat reporters, and while he wouldn’t comment on what’s being talked about, he said he expected negotiations to go “well into the night,” presumably with the Twins. He also said the teams are being flexible, that no “final offers” have been made.

-- Phil Miller

Posted by Pioneer Press at 7:00 PM

----

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...t_at_the_1.html

The Red Sox front office types have been at dinner for the time being, putting a hold on trade talks. But they will convene at the organization's suite here in the Opryland hotel at midnight.

Presumably that would place the movers and shakers on standby for further trade talks with the Twins.

Could be another long night...
Theo being smart and Hank being sophomoric
 
Wow...

Klapisch

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

It wasn't money, it wasn't Ian Kennedy, nor was it the haggling over a third prospect that kept the Yankees from acquiring Johan Santana. When GM general manager Brian Cashman called the Twins at 2 p.m. on Tuesday to withdraw from the Santana sweepstakes, it was because losing Phil Hughes had become too great of a trauma for the Yankees to absorb.

Madden

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Olney on Mike & Mike

- Doesn't think Twins will accept current deal with Red Sox.

- Thinks the Yankees are really out of the running for good.
Wow what? more speculation?
Nice selective bolding, let me help you out...So the Yankees bailed because they think Phil Hughes is the second coming... :lmao:
I don't any help, but thanks Alias. Money, Hughes - hey, let's write our stories so we are correct no matter what the real reason was. Let me help you out here, go read this entire thread and get back to me on the % of accurate reporting on what was going to happen and the reasons why.
Well we have two sources here and it makes sense, do you have a better reason why the Yankees backed out?Hughes was a great prospect and granted these stats are only after his first year in the bigs but...

5 and half innings per start, 4.46 ERA, 7.2 K/9, 1.28 WHIP, and a .313 BA against

Is hardly something to consider Ace material or in this case backing out of a deal for an Ace.
So Hughes is done now? Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions.Hey, I have no idea what he will turn out to be. Like all Yankee fans, I hope he is great. I didn't want to see him go, but I would have accepted it to get Santana. In the end, I will have to agree with what you wrote about the deal - If he doesn't go to the Yanks or Sox I'm fine with it. There have been some great opinions written in this thread about Yankee fans (and Boston too) wanting to see a team develop and root for the home grown kids.

In the end it had to be a combination of all of the factors - obviously with giving up Hughes and sinking a TON of money into a pitcher (a great one, but I can see why the Yanks would be worried with their recent history). To try to pin this all on Hughes is a little bit of a push, that is all I'm getting at, but I guess it does make a good story or a great reason to post a :lmao: on a message board.

 
Wow...

Klapisch

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

It wasn't money, it wasn't Ian Kennedy, nor was it the haggling over a third prospect that kept the Yankees from acquiring Johan Santana. When GM general manager Brian Cashman called the Twins at 2 p.m. on Tuesday to withdraw from the Santana sweepstakes, it was because losing Phil Hughes had become too great of a trauma for the Yankees to absorb.

Madden

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Olney on Mike & Mike

- Doesn't think Twins will accept current deal with Red Sox.

- Thinks the Yankees are really out of the running for good.
Wow what? more speculation?
Nice selective bolding, let me help you out...So the Yankees bailed because they think Phil Hughes is the second coming... :bag:
I don't any help, but thanks Alias. Money, Hughes - hey, let's write our stories so we are correct no matter what the real reason was. Let me help you out here, go read this entire thread and get back to me on the % of accurate reporting on what was going to happen and the reasons why.
Well we have two sources here and it makes sense, do you have a better reason why the Yankees backed out?Hughes was a great prospect and granted these stats are only after his first year in the bigs but...

5 and half innings per start, 4.46 ERA, 7.2 K/9, 1.28 WHIP, and a .313 BA against

Is hardly something to consider Ace material or in this case backing out of a deal for an Ace.
So Hughes is done now? Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions.Hey, I have no idea what he will turn out to be. Like all Yankee fans, I hope he is great. I didn't want to see him go, but I would have accepted it to get Santana. In the end, I will have to agree with what you wrote about the deal - If he doesn't go to the Yanks or Sox I'm fine with it. There have been some great opinions written in this thread about Yankee fans (and Boston too) wanting to see a team develop and root for the home grown kids.

In the end it had to be a combination of all of the factors - obviously with giving up Hughes and sinking a TON of money into a pitcher (a great one, but I can see why the Yanks would be worried with their recent history). To try to pin this all on Hughes is a little bit of a push, that is all I'm getting at, but I guess it does make a good story or a great reason to post a :lmao: on a message board.
:lmao:

This whole thread had it's ups and downs..... People telling others to "Research the deal" when it was ALL speculation and rumors to begin with, as if someone knew the "real deal"...People telling other they don't REALLY know the game..... People trying to pin the whole deal NOT getting done on 1 Player..... :lmao: Yankees didn't want to give up Kennedy AND Hughes, have a hole in CF, spend all that $$$$, and have less bargaining power later..... A lot of factors, again, some we might not even know.

All in fun though.......

Bottom line sounds like Sox and Yankee fans are all happy as long as he's not on the other team.

 
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Wow...

Klapisch

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

It wasn't money, it wasn't Ian Kennedy, nor was it the haggling over a third prospect that kept the Yankees from acquiring Johan Santana. When GM general manager Brian Cashman called the Twins at 2 p.m. on Tuesday to withdraw from the Santana sweepstakes, it was because losing Phil Hughes had become too great of a trauma for the Yankees to absorb.

Madden

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Olney on Mike & Mike

- Doesn't think Twins will accept current deal with Red Sox.

- Thinks the Yankees are really out of the running for good.
Wow what? more speculation?
Nice selective bolding, let me help you out...So the Yankees bailed because they think Phil Hughes is the second coming... :bag:
:lmao: If Cashman and the Yanks really believe that then Im glad they stood by their convictions and held onto Hughes. Whos to say they are wrong? I give Cashman props :lmao: It sounds like Hank wanted Santana but Cash finally convinced him otherwise. Im not saying it was the right or wrong move but I commend him by sticking with Hughes since they think so highly of him.BTW this whole thing just sounded like a bluff fest between the Yanks and Boston. Neither team wanted to give up the goods for Santana yet neither team wants the other team to get him. Sounds like the Yanks called Boston's bluff when they backed out.

 
Wow...

Klapisch

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

It wasn't money, it wasn't Ian Kennedy, nor was it the haggling over a third prospect that kept the Yankees from acquiring Johan Santana. When GM general manager Brian Cashman called the Twins at 2 p.m. on Tuesday to withdraw from the Santana sweepstakes, it was because losing Phil Hughes had become too great of a trauma for the Yankees to absorb.

Madden

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Olney on Mike & Mike

- Doesn't think Twins will accept current deal with Red Sox.

- Thinks the Yankees are really out of the running for good.
Wow what? more speculation?
Nice selective bolding, let me help you out...So the Yankees bailed because they think Phil Hughes is the second coming... :lmao:
:shrug: If Cashman and the Yanks really believe that then Im glad they stood by their convictions and held onto Hughes. Whos to say they are wrong? I give Cashman props :thumbup: It sounds like Hank wanted Santana but Cash finally convinced him otherwise. Im not saying it was the right or wrong move but I commend him by sticking with Hughes since they think so highly of him.BTW this whole thing just sounded like a bluff fest between the Yanks and Boston. Neither team wanted to give up the goods for Santana yet neither team wants the other team to get him. Sounds like the Yanks called Boston's bluff when they backed out.
Hey Shady I know a lot of people give you gruff here, but I think you are o.k. :P I agree that it takes stones to do that and I am sure Pettitte returning helped them make up their mind, their track record isn't the best when it comes to spending big bucks on a SP.

 
Wow...

Klapisch

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

It wasn't money, it wasn't Ian Kennedy, nor was it the haggling over a third prospect that kept the Yankees from acquiring Johan Santana. When GM general manager Brian Cashman called the Twins at 2 p.m. on Tuesday to withdraw from the Santana sweepstakes, it was because losing Phil Hughes had become too great of a trauma for the Yankees to absorb.

Madden

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Olney on Mike & Mike

- Doesn't think Twins will accept current deal with Red Sox.

- Thinks the Yankees are really out of the running for good.
Wow what? more speculation?
Nice selective bolding, let me help you out...So the Yankees bailed because they think Phil Hughes is the second coming... ;)
I don't any help, but thanks Alias. Money, Hughes - hey, let's write our stories so we are correct no matter what the real reason was. Let me help you out here, go read this entire thread and get back to me on the % of accurate reporting on what was going to happen and the reasons why.
Well we have two sources here and it makes sense, do you have a better reason why the Yankees backed out?Hughes was a great prospect and granted these stats are only after his first year in the bigs but...

5 and half innings per start, 4.46 ERA, 7.2 K/9, 1.28 WHIP, and a .313 BA against

Is hardly something to consider Ace material or in this case backing out of a deal for an Ace.
So Hughes is done now? Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions.Hey, I have no idea what he will turn out to be. Like all Yankee fans, I hope he is great. I didn't want to see him go, but I would have accepted it to get Santana. In the end, I will have to agree with what you wrote about the deal - If he doesn't go to the Yanks or Sox I'm fine with it. There have been some great opinions written in this thread about Yankee fans (and Boston too) wanting to see a team develop and root for the home grown kids.

In the end it had to be a combination of all of the factors - obviously with giving up Hughes and sinking a TON of money into a pitcher (a great one, but I can see why the Yanks would be worried with their recent history). To try to pin this all on Hughes is a little bit of a push, that is all I'm getting at, but I guess it does make a good story or a great reason to post a :confused: on a message board.
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.Granted there has been a lot of false information coming out but no need to use that as an excuse and say oh this must be garbage whenever something negative comes out about the Yankees (or Red Sox depending on who is defending).

 
From the Post today:

... The Yanks had minor concerns that after Santana struck out 17 on Aug. 19 that he stopped throwing his slider and was 2-4 with a 5.11 ERA in his final seven starts. But, at most, it is a tiny red flag.

----

"We've worked really hard to get in the position that we're in. There are times to consider big moves that are almost too good to pass up, but it doesn't mean we abandon the plan." -Theo Epstein

 
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What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
would you feel the same way if Ellsbury he had been just average in his debut? somehow i doubt it. Look i know alot of us are biased here, but come on man. I understand that ML experience is more important, but to dismiss Hughes' history of world class stuff and poise well beyond his years because of 1/3 of a season of average MLB performance is pretty shortsighted. It's easy to make that argument when your top prospect plays well in his debut. but its an impatient and losing attitude in the long run.
 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.

Granted there has been a lot of false information coming out but no need to use that as an excuse and say oh this must be garbage whenever something negative comes out about the Yankees (or Red Sox depending on who is defending).
I think people are weighting it differently based on his injury though...Guy had a no hitter going, got injured in that game and came back later in the year, slowly building himself back up pitching well in the playoffs. The stats you throw out definitely have a story behind them.

He's still regarded highly...... Part of what hurt Yankee fans in all these rumors was that for a long time it was regarded that Hughes > Buecholtz.. The Sox take Buech off the market and now the Yankees still have to give up Hughes PLUS Kennedy while the Sox throw out Lester and a CF they don't need plus prospects.

That's why someone here posted that it sounds like a Fantasy Football type deal on the Sox part - A deal where you look at your starting roster and then offer some team a chunk of your Bench for one of the best players in the game.

 
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From the Post today:... The Yanks had minor concerns that after Santana struck out 17 on Aug. 19 that he stopped throwing his slider and was 2-4 with a 5.11 ERA in his final seven starts. But, at most, it is a tiny red flag.----"We've worked really hard to get in the position that we're in. There are times to consider big moves that are almost too good to pass up, but it doesn't mean we abandon the plan." -Theo Epstein
Interesting about Santana.I would like to see the translation of Hank saying the exact same thing that Theo did in that above quote. Could make for some good comedy, I doubt it would come out anywhere near as well. Even though i think the Yanks are basically saying the same thing.
 
From what I heard today, if the Sox and Twins reached a deal, the Sox would likely get another 72 hours to sign Santana to an extension and it was unlikely that anything would be announced until after everything was a done deal and he was signed, sealed, and delivered.

 
From what I heard today, if the Sox and Twins reached a deal, the Sox would likely get another 72 hours to sign Santana to an extension and it was unlikely that anything would be announced until after everything was a done deal and he was signed, sealed, and delivered.
Really? I find it hard to believe that the deal wouldn't leak out, knowing that the 72 hour window was open to get a deal with Santana.
 
My guess is there is another team working behind the scenes to better the SOX offer (Yankees, Angels, Dodgers?). I think if the Twins felt what the SOX were offering was the best offer and nobody else was looking at making a better offer we would have heard something.

 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.

Granted there has been a lot of false information coming out but no need to use that as an excuse and say oh this must be garbage whenever something negative comes out about the Yankees (or Red Sox depending on who is defending).
I think people are weighting it differently based on his injury though...Guy had a no hitter going, got injured in that game and came back later in the year, slowly building himself back up pitching well in the playoffs. The stats you throw out definitely have a story behind them.

He's still regarded highly...... Part of what hurt Yankee fans in all these rumors was that for a long time it was regarded that Hughes > Buecholtz.. The Sox take Buech off the market and now the Yankees still have to give up Hughes PLUS Kennedy while the Sox throw out Lester and a CF they don't need plus prospects.

That's why someone here posted that it sounds like a Fantasy Football type deal on the Sox part - A deal where you look at your starting roster and then offer some team a chunk of your Bench for one of the best players in the game.
Well I think we are all in the dark what the exact demands were (i.e. Hughes + Kennedy), we heard the same thing about (Lester + Buchholz or Ellsbury) and it does not seem to be as hard of a line as we originally were led to believe. I think it came down to Hughes + Melky + Crap compared to Lester + Coco + better Crap and Hankenstein's ultimatum and pull out did not really help the Yankees' cause. Boston also gave Minnesota more options (allegedly) with Ellsbury instead of Lester, but drew a hardline of including both players in a deal - similar to how the Yankees did with Hughes + Kennedy (which I still find hard to believe as being more attractive to the Twins given their young pitching depth).But who knows :shrug: hard to tell what is real and what is media fodder...

 
From the Post today:

... The Yanks had minor concerns that after Santana struck out 17 on Aug. 19 that he stopped throwing his slider and was 2-4 with a 5.11 ERA in his final seven starts. But, at most, it is a tiny red flag.----

"We've worked really hard to get in the position that we're in. There are times to consider big moves that are almost too good to pass up, but it doesn't mean we abandon the plan." -Theo Epstein
I don't get why this flies so far below the radar, its a major factor to me, in a situation where you are making this financial commitment AND dumping prospects. I guess everyone gets a physical before the deal, but this would make me think twice.
 
My guess is there is another team working behind the scenes to better the SOX offer (Yankees, Angels, Dodgers?). I think if the Twins felt what the SOX were offering was the best offer and nobody else was looking at making a better offer we would have heard something.
Hard to say...it sounds like the Twins did the calcualtion of what a year of Santana @13 mil and 2 first round picks is really worth and basically decided that its really worth a whole heck of a lot (or at least more than any of these packages from either team). That's another reason the Det deal is so good for them. Both Cabrera and Willis should net them 4 first round picks if they don't extend them so they basically traded 2 first round picks in Miller and Maybin for potentially 4 in the future especially since thy're willing to splurge on signing bonuses (which they did on both Maybin and Miller along with Porcello last draft). An absolute no brainer for them. Thinking about it, I'm not sure why more teams weren't willing to do that same deal with the Marlins.
 
It also probably needs to be mentioned that the Tigers-Marlins trade probably ended all Sox-Twins trade talk since Sox didnt wanna include any top prospects for Santana meanwhile FLA got 2 top prospects for their stars.

 
It also probably needs to be mentioned that the Tigers-Marlins trade probably ended all Sox-Twins trade talk since Sox didnt wanna include any top prospects for Santana meanwhile FLA got 2 top prospects for their stars.
Although this seems like a backhanded jab at ellsbury/lester, it actually does make sense. Maybin and Miller are probably both rated higher than ellsbury (and certainly Lester) and Cabrera is not quite as valuable as Santana. If I'm Minnesota, i take a good hard look at the Marlins haul and go talk to the Angels or Dodgers.
 
It also probably needs to be mentioned that the Tigers-Marlins trade probably ended all Sox-Twins trade talk since Sox didnt wanna include any top prospects for Santana meanwhile FLA got 2 top prospects for their stars.
Although this seems like a backhanded jab at ellsbury/lester, it actually does make sense. Maybin and Miller are probably both rated higher than ellsbury (and certainly Lester) and Cabrera is not quite as valuable as Santana. If I'm Minnesota, i take a good hard look at the Marlins haul and go talk to the Angels or Dodgers.
No I was assuming Ellsbury wasnt part of the deal in my post so no backhanded jab. Im just saying Smith wouldve been lambasted by everybody for accepting Lester, Lowrie, Masterson, and Crisp for Santana when FLA got the pull they did.
 
It also probably needs to be mentioned that the Tigers-Marlins trade probably ended all Sox-Twins trade talk since Sox didnt wanna include any top prospects for Santana meanwhile FLA got 2 top prospects for their stars.
Although this seems like a backhanded jab at ellsbury/lester, it actually does make sense. Maybin and Miller are probably both rated higher than ellsbury (and certainly Lester) and Cabrera is not quite as valuable as Santana. If I'm Minnesota, i take a good hard look at the Marlins haul and go talk to the Angels or Dodgers.
In fairness to the teams lining up for Johan, Miggy is not a free agent at the end of 08, so its a bit of a different scenario.
 
I'm not one of the 4 people that follow the Marlins, but from what I've seen/heard/read it almost seems like people are expecting the D-Train to get eaten alive in the A.L. and could be viewed as a forced toss-in to get Cabrera.

The past two seasons Willis has had ERAs of 4.30 and WHIPs of 1.4 and 1.6. Normally pitchers moving to the A.L. see their ERAs climb by 0.50 to 1.00 run per game. Are people looking at him as some big catch for the Tigers' rotation?

 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.

Granted there has been a lot of false information coming out but no need to use that as an excuse and say oh this must be garbage whenever something negative comes out about the Yankees (or Red Sox depending on who is defending).
I think people are weighting it differently based on his injury though...Guy had a no hitter going, got injured in that game and came back later in the year, slowly building himself back up pitching well in the playoffs. The stats you throw out definitely have a story behind them.

He's still regarded highly...... Part of what hurt Yankee fans in all these rumors was that for a long time it was regarded that Hughes > Buecholtz.. The Sox take Buech off the market and now the Yankees still have to give up Hughes PLUS Kennedy while the Sox throw out Lester and a CF they don't need plus prospects.

That's why someone here posted that it sounds like a Fantasy Football type deal on the Sox part - A deal where you look at your starting roster and then offer some team a chunk of your Bench for one of the best players in the game.
Well I think we are all in the dark what the exact demands were (i.e. Hughes + Kennedy), we heard the same thing about (Lester + Buchholz or Ellsbury) and it does not seem to be as hard of a line as we originally were led to believe. I think it came down to Hughes + Melky + Crap compared to Lester + Coco + better Crap and Hankenstein's ultimatum and pull out did not really help the Yankees' cause. Boston also gave Minnesota more options (allegedly) with Ellsbury instead of Lester, but drew a hardline of including both players in a deal - similar to how the Yankees did with Hughes + Kennedy (which I still find hard to believe as being more attractive to the Twins given their young pitching depth).But who knows :shrug: hard to tell what is real and what is media fodder...
Exactly....

That's why some people didn't get what you said earlier........

Nice selective bolding, let me help you out...

So the Yankees bailed because they think Phil Hughes is the second coming... :D
 
Interesting perspective over at SOSH... looking at it from a business side of things:

f you want to look at this as a business (which the Twins apparently do)...if you look at their attendance from 1982-2007 vs. their wins, the Twins do OK from an attendance perspective as long as they're .500 or better - roughly "in contention". Their average year over that 25 is 78 wins and a 1.8 million attendance (strike screws this straight average up a little, but...). This average though has a high deviation.

When the Twins are winning under 75 games they have historically drawn under 1.5 milliion fans, and in 2000 drew 1 million people with a 69-93 record.

Compare this to the 1.8-2.4 million they draw when at or above .500. Their core business objective is probably not to win a championship, but to stay competitive enough to avoid a massive dropoff in attendance. Last year was tough - they drew 2.3 million only winning 79 games - the fans seem to have a grace period year with them where they'll put up with them losing for 1 year, but the 2nd year gets ugly - 1997/98 is a good example when they went from mediocre to bad in 97 they still drew 1.5 million, but dropped to that 1.0-1.2 million range from 98-00. 01 they won 85 games and were right back up to 1.7 mil.

The difference to the Twins between being "in contention" and "2nd division" is probaly 30-40M in gate revenue. This may explain some of THEIR hesitation in this trade - Hughes probably increases the chances of staying competitive in 08 (if we think next year he's better than Lester) even though the rest of the Yankee offer isn't terrific. The Tiger deal may change that calculus - they may realize the ONLY way they're staying competitive is to keep Santana. Just a thought....

 
NY Daily News :loco:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...llions_and.html

Brian Cashman, Yanks balk at millions and Phil Hughes for Johan Santana

Wednesday, December 5th 2007, 10:22 AM

Brian Cashman is not worried about Johan Santana's (below) possible move to Boston - his call is to go with the kids in the rotation.

NASHVILLE - Even though George Steinbrenner is no longer the one to say it, Brian Cashman had better be right about Phil Hughes.

The Yankee GM, who is staking his job on his young-gun pitchers, has walked away from a 4-for-1 trade of players the Twins were agreeable to for Johan Santana at the winter meetings that included Hughes, but not Ian Kennedy (as Minnesota initially requested) or any of the Bombers' other top prospects. By doing so, Cashman has apparently handed one of the best young pitchers in baseball to the Red Sox for a parcel of prospects that is also likely to be a far cry from the Twins' original asking price for their premier lefthander.

But it is more than just Cashman's belief in Hughes that suddenly put the Yankees in full retreat after Hank Steinbrenner had sounded the "Charge!" on Santana. Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.

Once Andy Pettitte announced he was returning to the fold for $16 million, it meant the Yankees had committed $408.4 million this winter to retain six players. The acquisition of Santana would have meant tacking on another $125 million to that figure, and Cashman, who never wanted to do the Santana deal in the first place, blanched at the prospect of adding another $20 million to a payroll that was already on the cusp of $200 million, again. In this respect, the timing of Pettitte's decision to return - while initially seen as giving the Yankees additional leverage in their dealings with the Twins on Santana - actually gave Cashman the "out" he needed.

Bad as it was to be sacrificing Hughes, Cashman told the Yankee high command, look at what the payroll was going to be now if they added $20 million-$21 million for Santana on top of the $16 million they just tacked on with Pettitte. At that point, there was considerable internal debate as to whether to proceed with Santana even after the Twins had backed off from Kennedy and picked Marquez, who is regarded as a second-tier pitching prospect, and Hilligoss, a Wade Boggs-type singles-hitting third baseman who did have a 35-game hitting streak last season and led the South Atlantic League in hits.

In the end, Cashman prevailed, convincing Hank and Hal Steinbrenner of something he could never have done with their dad - that trading for Johan Santana was simply too expensive for the New York Yankees. Left unsaid was why the Yankee payroll is once again out of hand. For starters, there's the $10 million that is being frittered away on Carl Pavano next season and another $4 million for Kei Igawa that is separate from his $26 million posting fee. And had Cashman not chosen to let Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera play out the season before dealing with them as free agents, he would have saved at least a year and a couple of million apiece on their contracts.

In fact, the payroll glut would have been only for one year as some $80 million for Pettitte, Pavano, Kyle Farnsworth, Mike Mussina, Bobby Abreu and Jason Giambi come off the books after '08. But that apparently was not a consideration for Cashman. The GM never wanted to do this Santana deal, never wanted to get tied up in another expensive long-term contract for a pitcher and, above all, never wanted to give up Hughes.

Cashman wants his legacy to be the young guns - Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Kennedy - and he is banking on them forming the nucleus of a rotation that would better that of the Red Sox. That would certainly be a reach, especially if Santana joins Josh Beckett, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Curt Schilling, Tim Wakefield and the rookie phenom they wouldn't give the Twins, Clay Buchholz. For all the Yankee hype about Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy, nothing is said for the fact that none of them has thrown more 165 innings in a season while Santana has given the Twins more than 900 over the last four years.

Unlike Tigers' GM Dave Dombrowski, who boldly sacrificed his two top prospects - lefthander Andrew Miller and center fielder Cameron Maybin - to go for it all in a deal for Florida's two franchise players Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera, Cashman is overly proctective of his prospects.

With his own contract expiring after next season, Cashman better have an idea as to where all those innings are going to come from and he'd better be right that Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy are the real deal.

Especially Hughes.
From what I read, the Twins were willing to accept a deal that included Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Jeff Marquez, and Mitch Hilligoss.
 
I'm not one of the 4 people that follow the Marlins, but from what I've seen/heard/read it almost seems like people are expecting the D-Train to get eaten alive in the A.L. and could be viewed as a forced toss-in to get Cabrera.The past two seasons Willis has had ERAs of 4.30 and WHIPs of 1.4 and 1.6. Normally pitchers moving to the A.L. see their ERAs climb by 0.50 to 1.00 run per game. Are people looking at him as some big catch for the Tigers' rotation?
Willis = overrated
 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? :loco: At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...
 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? :thumbup: At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...
We get it, YOU think Hughes will develop into an ACE pitcher, regardless of what kind of numbers he put up this year in the bigs, because other players like Johan had worst debut seasons, so therefore so will Hughes. And you agree with Cashman for essentially not doing a straight up trade for Johan because you overvalue Hughes.
 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? :mellow: At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...
We get it, YOU think Hughes will develop into an ACE pitcher, regardless of what kind of numbers he put up this year in the bigs, because other players like Johan had worst debut seasons, so therefore so will Hughes. And you agree with Cashman for essentially not doing a straight up trade for Johan because you overvalue Hughes.
You're really not coming off too well here Alias...There is a helluva lot more evidence pointing to Hughes being a very good pitcher than to him not being one...
 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? :mellow: At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...
We get it, YOU think Hughes will develop into an ACE pitcher, regardless of what kind of numbers he put up this year in the bigs, because other players like Johan had worst debut seasons, so therefore so will Hughes. And you agree with Cashman for essentially not doing a straight up trade for Johan because you overvalue Hughes.
You're really not coming off too well here Alias...There is a helluva lot more evidence pointing to Hughes being a very good pitcher than to him not being one...
You didnt hear? The first half a season(despite the player's age or track record) determines how good they are gonna be. See Ellsbury, Jacoby.
 
I always find in interesting that for young players how much they stand by stats in a very small sample size. IMO, can we really draw any conclusions from a few months of production from players like Hughes and Ellsbury. IMO, if Jacoby hit .230 or .330 we would have no real basis to guess how his career would go, just like for Hughes if he had a 1.20 ERA that would not necessarily mean he'd be a future HOFer.

 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? :pickle: At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...
We get it, YOU think Hughes will develop into an ACE pitcher, regardless of what kind of numbers he put up this year in the bigs, because other players like Johan had worst debut seasons, so therefore so will Hughes. And you agree with Cashman for essentially not doing a straight up trade for Johan because you overvalue Hughes.
That's more than a little unfair...even taking off the prospect/non-prospect tag, there's still a lot of scouts out there that think Hughes is better than Joba. He still has 4 plus pitches while Joba only has 2, he's stilll only 22, he had 5 very good starts to end the year, and all his peripheral numbers were more than adequate (I mean a 1.28 WHIP for a 21-yr old is more than OK). He's still more of a sure thing than Joba since no one really knows if Joba can pitch effectively as a SP.
 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? :pickle: At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...
Well, then isn't the opposite situation just as true?Joba Chamberlain has thrown 24 innings in the majors, after 88 innings in his whole minor league career, spanning exactly one season (2007). Sure he was incredible and clearly has terrific stuff but that doesn't change the fact that its a VERY small sample size in professional baseball.
 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? :pickle: At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...
Well, then isn't the opposite situation just as true?Joba Chamberlain has thrown 24 innings in the majors, after 88 innings in his whole minor league career, spanning exactly one season (2007). Sure he was incredible and clearly has terrific stuff but that doesn't change the fact that its a VERY small sample size in professional baseball.
Fair enough, but I dont see too many yankee fans calling Joba a 2008 All Star(like sox fans are Ellsbury)
 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? :goodposting: At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...
Well, then isn't the opposite situation just as true?Joba Chamberlain has thrown 24 innings in the majors, after 88 innings in his whole minor league career, spanning exactly one season (2007). Sure he was incredible and clearly has terrific stuff but that doesn't change the fact that its a VERY small sample size in professional baseball.
No doubt...From Hughes' minor league track record, scouts' opinions and what I think was a pretty solid performance by the youngest starter in baseball, I think he can be a very good, ace type pitcher...Is it a guarantee? of course not...But I;m not exactly standing out here all alone...
 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? :thumbup: At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...
Well, then isn't the opposite situation just as true?Joba Chamberlain has thrown 24 innings in the majors, after 88 innings in his whole minor league career, spanning exactly one season (2007). Sure he was incredible and clearly has terrific stuff but that doesn't change the fact that its a VERY small sample size in professional baseball.
Fair enough, but I dont see too many yankee fans calling Joba a 2008 All Star(like sox fans are Ellsbury)
Ellsbury has a much longer track record to project from as a professional baseball player. He's been in pro ball since 2005, logging close to 300 games from A ball through the major league playoffs. Joba's appeared in 39 games in his pro career.
 
Fair enough, but I dont see too many yankee fans calling Joba a 2008 All Star(like sox fans are Ellsbury)
Oh come on... :thumbup: 1) It was a comment made by Wilked that Ellsbury has the potential to be an all star caliber CF.

2) I'm pretty sure you guys don't want us painting all Yankees fans with a broad brush every time Shady says something crazy. :shrug:

 
Jeebus guys, can we bring the Yanks/Sox toolishness down a couple of notches...

Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lester, Chamberlain, Hughes, Kennedy; they're all good young talents with bright futures...

 
What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.
So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? :unsure: At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...
Well, then isn't the opposite situation just as true?Joba Chamberlain has thrown 24 innings in the majors, after 88 innings in his whole minor league career, spanning exactly one season (2007). Sure he was incredible and clearly has terrific stuff but that doesn't change the fact that its a VERY small sample size in professional baseball.
Fair enough, but I dont see too many yankee fans calling Joba a 2008 All Star(like sox fans are Ellsbury)
Ellsbury has a much longer track record to project from as a professional baseball player. He's been in pro ball since 2005, logging close to 300 games from A ball through the major league playoffs. Joba's appeared in 39 games in his pro career.
who would you rather have?
 
Fair enough, but I dont see too many yankee fans calling Joba a 2008 All Star(like sox fans are Ellsbury)
Oh come on... :unsure: 1) It was a comment made by Wilked that Ellsbury has the potential to be an all star caliber CF.

2) I'm pretty sure you guys don't want us painting all Yankees fans with a broad brush every time Shady says something crazy. :lmao:
I agree, painting with a broad brush isnt good. But you can;t honestly tell me that he's the only one saying it. From what I've read and heard over the past few days, the guy might as well be jesus in CF.
 

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