The Johan Santana rumor mill (1 Viewer)

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Reported on ESPN 1050 radio a proposed 3 way deal between Mets, A’s and Twins.

Mets get: Johan Santana & Bobby Crosby

Twins get: Dan Haren

A's get: Jose Reyes

Other players are believed to be involved but as for now this is all that’s been reported

More Details on this...http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/santanareyeshar.html

Just got an incredible rumor from a trusted New York sportswriter. Stay with me, because this one's crazy. But rest assured that if the source wasn't good, I wouldn't post it.

Minnesota has initiated talks for a three-way blockbuster with the Twins and A's. Here's how it would go down:

Mets send Jose Reyes, Kevin Mulvey, and Hector Pellot to A's

A's send Bobby Crosby and Dan Johnson to Mets

A's send Dan Haren to Twins

Twins send Johan Santana to Mets

Mets get Johan Santana, Bobby Crosby and Dan Johnson

A's get Jose Reyes and Kevin Mulvey

Twins get Dan Haren and Hector Pellot

The source says Haren is exactly the type of player the Twins want for Santana, a cheap frontline starter. It's known the Mets would hate to deal Reyes but they would get some value beyond Santana. Billy Beane is happy because he gets Reyes for one more year than he had Haren plus longtime favorite Mulvey. And, he's out of Crosby's contract.

I won't pretend to know the other guys listed in this deal (other means not Reyes, Santana, Haren and know "of" Mulvey), but this is far from crazy.Let's take a quick primer of the last week.

The Sox REALLY want Santana.

The Yankees REALLY want Santana.

The Angels may really want Santana.

The Twins REALLY want to get as much value for Santana as possible without any risk of injury or having to pay him on his way out the door anyway.

As of today, none of the above has happened. The Sox and Yanks have given a lot of value but there does not seem the right fit. Either don't quite have enough or give too much type deal.

So, it may indeed take a more complicated three team approach.

Haren makes a lot of sense except I STILL have no idea why the A's want to trade him. Maybe, as is the case sometimes, they know something we don't.

Reyes may not have the OBP that you'd think the A's would like, except he is a supreme talent, even at .350 OBP he is an utterly disruptive and productive player and brings a damn good overall glove as well. When you figure how young Reyes still is the A's can think they can coach him up considerably from there and WOW talk about a player... all for freaking bargain for the next 5 or so years.

As a Mets fan, I am very torn on Reyes. From a baseball only standpoint, NO question Id deal him for Santana. You can FIND replacement production on offense. Maybe not from a SS that breaks the mold, but you can find ways (i.e. spend) to get runs. You can't just buy top 3 or top ONE overall pitchers in the league. Emotionally, however, Reyes is a player I PAY to watch beyond production. He is the most fun player in baseball when things are going well for him. It is beyond a joy.... so everyday joy watching, or "that" much better chance of a championship with Santana and the ULTIMATE joy.

I'd love to find a way to have the latter (without Santana albeit) while keeping the former. Tough question for Mets fans. Likely moot cause I doubt this happens.

BUT, maybe bringing in a third team can allow the Mets to find SOME other angle that fits. Not getting my hopes up there.

It's a bull#### trade rumor. Why would a sportswriter give this scoop to some guy on a blog instead of breaking it himself? I mean, seriously.And besides, the Twins are going to want more than just Haren for Santana. I also don't see the Mets taking on Crosby's salary when they're going to have to turn around and pay Santana $130MM or whatever.

My main point is twofold:1 - The easy way (Boston or Yanks giving enough prospects and be done with it) is not happening.

2 - With 1 in mind, a three way, more complicated deal is perhaps the only way to really get this done and I could see the Mets getting involved at that point.

The question in general is the old is Reyes worth it thing mixed in.

I heard just a blip on the radio about the Mets and some late flurry activity today, but was not able to hear what. It was on the Michael "you know what rhymes with" K show about 30 min ago.

Probably the thing about Oliver Perez and prospects.

 

[Alias]

They Reyes rumor was a hoax...

Santana/Reyes/Haren Blockbuster QuashedUPDATE, 12-5-07 at 5:45pm: Billy Beane, who rarely comments on trade rumors, actually went out of his way to call mine below a "total fabrication." I guess I should be proud, right? It sounds like I was the victim of an elaborate hoax/impersonated sportswriter. If so I apologize - not sure why someone would go to such lengths, but lesson learned.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

They Reyes rumor was a hoax...

Santana/Reyes/Haren Blockbuster QuashedUPDATE, 12-5-07 at 5:45pm: Billy Beane, who rarely comments on trade rumors, actually went out of his way to call mine below a "total fabrication." I guess I should be proud, right? It sounds like I was the victim of an elaborate hoax/impersonated sportswriter. If so I apologize - not sure why someone would go to such lengths, but lesson learned.

Shocking. Tim should have known better.

 

[igbomb]

Like I have said in other threads, I think the best move for the Twins right now is to keep Santana. They can compete with their roster as it is shaped right now. They just need to remain healthy.If they fall out of contention at the break, trade Santana and Nathan for prospects.This team can compete, IMO. If Liriano can come back at 80 %, that is a great # 2 starter.Johan SantanaFrancisco LirianoScott BakerBoof BonserKevin SloweyBullpen top 3:Joe NathanPat NeshekMatt GuerrierOffense has holes offensively, especially on the left side of the infield. They need to DH Mauer a little more, Redmond is a good backup catcher, and Mauer is a great pure hitter. His defense is unreal, but he seems to get worn down at catcher. give him a couple days off a week to DH.

I don't think that there is any way that the current Twins roster can compete in the Central. Then again, I'm a Tigers homer.

 

[Frostillicus]

Like I have said in other threads, I think the best move for the Twins right now is to keep Santana. They can compete with their roster as it is shaped right now. They just need to remain healthy.If they fall out of contention at the break, trade Santana and Nathan for prospects.This team can compete, IMO. If Liriano can come back at 80 %, that is a great # 2 starter.Johan SantanaFrancisco LirianoScott BakerBoof BonserKevin SloweyBullpen top 3:Joe NathanPat NeshekMatt GuerrierOffense has holes offensively, especially on the left side of the infield. They need to DH Mauer a little more, Redmond is a good backup catcher, and Mauer is a great pure hitter. His defense is unreal, but he seems to get worn down at catcher. give him a couple days off a week to DH.

I don't think that there is any way that the current Twins roster can compete in the Central. Then again, I'm a Tigers homer.

1. The Twins can't compete in the central this year.2. Santana has said he won't waive the no trade once the season starts,Thus, he needs to be traded this off season.

 

[Balco]

Like I have said in other threads, I think the best move for the Twins right now is to keep Santana. They can compete with their roster as it is shaped right now. They just need to remain healthy.If they fall out of contention at the break, trade Santana and Nathan for prospects.This team can compete, IMO. If Liriano can come back at 80 %, that is a great # 2 starter.Johan SantanaFrancisco LirianoScott BakerBoof BonserKevin SloweyBullpen top 3:Joe NathanPat NeshekMatt GuerrierOffense has holes offensively, especially on the left side of the infield. They need to DH Mauer a little more, Redmond is a good backup catcher, and Mauer is a great pure hitter. His defense is unreal, but he seems to get worn down at catcher. give him a couple days off a week to DH.

I don't think that there is any way that the current Twins roster can compete in the Central. Then again, I'm a Tigers homer.

Put me in the minority then. Central is tough, but every team has question marks.

 

[Balco]

Like I have said in other threads, I think the best move for the Twins right now is to keep Santana. They can compete with their roster as it is shaped right now. They just need to remain healthy.If they fall out of contention at the break, trade Santana and Nathan for prospects.This team can compete, IMO. If Liriano can come back at 80 %, that is a great # 2 starter.Johan SantanaFrancisco LirianoScott BakerBoof BonserKevin SloweyBullpen top 3:Joe NathanPat NeshekMatt GuerrierOffense has holes offensively, especially on the left side of the infield. They need to DH Mauer a little more, Redmond is a good backup catcher, and Mauer is a great pure hitter. His defense is unreal, but he seems to get worn down at catcher. give him a couple days off a week to DH.

I don't think that there is any way that the current Twins roster can compete in the Central. Then again, I'm a Tigers homer.

1. The Twins can't compete in the central this year.2. Santana has said he won't waive the no trade once the season starts,Thus, he needs to be traded this off season.

Disagree on point # 1, did not realize point # 2 (although something tells me Santana will change his mind when another team starts talking contract at the trade deadline). Twins were 4th in the AL in ERA last year and get Liriano back. They return a very strong bullpen as well.Like I said, offense has some question marks, but Mauer and Morneau are a solid core. Delmon Young's progress will be key.

 

[30283]

Like I have said in other threads, I think the best move for the Twins right now is to keep Santana. They can compete with their roster as it is shaped right now. They just need to remain healthy.If they fall out of contention at the break, trade Santana and Nathan for prospects.This team can compete, IMO. If Liriano can come back at 80 %, that is a great # 2 starter.Johan SantanaFrancisco LirianoScott BakerBoof BonserKevin SloweyBullpen top 3:Joe NathanPat NeshekMatt GuerrierOffense has holes offensively, especially on the left side of the infield. They need to DH Mauer a little more, Redmond is a good backup catcher, and Mauer is a great pure hitter. His defense is unreal, but he seems to get worn down at catcher. give him a couple days off a week to DH.

I don't think that there is any way that the current Twins roster can compete in the Central. Then again, I'm a Tigers homer.

1. The Twins can't compete in the central this year.2. Santana has said he won't waive the no trade once the season starts,Thus, he needs to be traded this off season.

Or, keep him and get the 2 first rounders if he leaves next year. Which, IMO, is better than some of the bunk deals that are being offered

 

[Balco]

Like I have said in other threads, I think the best move for the Twins right now is to keep Santana. They can compete with their roster as it is shaped right now. They just need to remain healthy.If they fall out of contention at the break, trade Santana and Nathan for prospects.This team can compete, IMO. If Liriano can come back at 80 %, that is a great # 2 starter.Johan SantanaFrancisco LirianoScott BakerBoof BonserKevin SloweyBullpen top 3:Joe NathanPat NeshekMatt GuerrierOffense has holes offensively, especially on the left side of the infield. They need to DH Mauer a little more, Redmond is a good backup catcher, and Mauer is a great pure hitter. His defense is unreal, but he seems to get worn down at catcher. give him a couple days off a week to DH.

I don't think that there is any way that the current Twins roster can compete in the Central. Then again, I'm a Tigers homer.

1. The Twins can't compete in the central this year.2. Santana has said he won't waive the no trade once the season starts,Thus, he needs to be traded this off season.

Or, keep him and get the 2 first rounders if he leaves next year. Which, IMO, is better than some of the bunk deals that are being offered

For many teams those first rounders would be very valuable. But, unfortunately for many small market teams, signability can determine who you draft. It's why huge prospects like JD Drew and Rick Ankiel slip in the draft. Several years ago the Twins passed on USC pitcher Mark Prior, who was univerally regarded as the # 1 prospect (the funny thing is, scouts were raving about his mechanics, how he should avoid injury) and took Joe Mauer. Yes, it ended up working out for them, but signability was an issue. Probably my biggest pet peeve with MLB is the draft. They should have salary slots like the NBA.

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

 

[Tremendous Upside]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

You really need to know levels and ages to make a true comparison...

 

[Liquid Tension]

What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.

So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded? At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...

Well, then isn't the opposite situation just as true?Joba Chamberlain has thrown 24 innings in the majors, after 88 innings in his whole minor league career, spanning exactly one season (2007). Sure he was incredible and clearly has terrific stuff but that doesn't change the fact that its a VERY small sample size in professional baseball.

Hence why Ive been saying I still like Hughes better

Are you saying you like Hughes better than Joba?

yes

If Hughes doesn't throw 94-95 I would not agree. Hughes seems more polished right now as his delivery stays the same. Joba still "flies open" on his delivery a little too often, but I think that is just less experience. In some ways he is kind of the Syd Finch Sports Illustrated April Fools joke.

 

[LTsharks]

Like I have said in other threads, I think the best move for the Twins right now is to keep Santana. They can compete with their roster as it is shaped right now. They just need to remain healthy.

If they fall out of contention at the break, trade Santana and Nathan for prospects.

This team can compete, IMO. If Liriano can come back at 80 %, that is a great # 2 starter.

Johan Santana

Francisco Liriano

Scott Baker

Boof Bonser

Kevin Slowey

Bullpen top 3:

Joe Nathan

Pat Neshek

Matt Guerrier

Offense has holes offensively, especially on the left side of the infield. They need to DH Mauer a little more, Redmond is a good backup catcher, and Mauer is a great pure hitter. His defense is unreal, but he seems to get worn down at catcher. give him a couple days off a week to DH.

I don't think that there is any way that the current Twins roster can compete in the Central. Then again, I'm a Tigers homer.

1. The Twins can't compete in the central this year.2. Santana has said he won't waive the no trade once the season starts,

Thus, he needs to be traded this off season.

Or, keep him and get the 2 first rounders if he leaves next year. Which, IMO, is better than some of the bunk deals that are being offered

For many teams those first rounders would be very valuable. But, unfortunately for many small market teams, signability can determine who you draft. It's why huge prospects like JD Drew and Rick Ankiel slip in the draft. Several years ago the Twins passed on USC pitcher Mark Prior, who was univerally regarded as the # 1 prospect (the funny thing is, scouts were raving about his mechanics, how he should avoid injury) and took Joe Mauer. Yes, it ended up working out for them, but signability was an issue. Probably my biggest pet peeve with MLB is the draft. They should have salary slots like the NBA.

They really should. While it wouldn't "fix" everything between the big teams spending tons of cash and teams like the Marlins spending $8 million, it would sure help a lot of the mid level teams. At least they would be able to get more top level prospects under control to either develop and keep or trade away once they hit the majors.

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

You really need to know levels and ages to make a true comparison...

I knew that question would come up (That was my first thought), but the levels don't really favor one or another too much. they are all about the same age and they all pitched these over 2006 and 2007 and all pitched in the Majors this year

 

[Tremendous Upside]

What I meant is he is no longer a prospect so we should stop referring to him as the #1 Yankee prospect. It's like saying hey look at my grades from High School after you have worked in the field for a few years. Granted his stats from 1 season (or whatever 13 games) is a small sample size, but they hold a lot more weight IMO then how he was viewed when he was a prospect.

So 70 league average innings from the youngest pitcher in the major leagues, pitching in the American League East, with a sterling pedigree and an excellent postseason performance causes him to be downgraded?

At Hughes's age Santana, for example, put up a 6.50 ERA in 80 or so innings...

Well, then isn't the opposite situation just as true?Joba Chamberlain has thrown 24 innings in the majors, after 88 innings in his whole minor league career, spanning exactly one season (2007). Sure he was incredible and clearly has terrific stuff but that doesn't change the fact that its a VERY small sample size in professional baseball.

Hence why Ive been saying I still like Hughes better

Are you saying you like Hughes better than Joba?

yes

If Hughes doesn't throw 94-95 I would not agree. Hughes seems more polished right now as his delivery stays the same. Joba still "flies open" on his delivery a little too often, but I think that is just less experience. In some ways he is kind of the Syd Finch Sports Illustrated April Fools joke.

I'm as high on Joba as any sane person is, but I wonder if he can possibly live up to his expectations this year...He has become a bonafide folk hero in NYC...

I went to Game 3 against the Indians, and Joba Rules TShirts were everywhere...

As previously stated, he only has just over 100 innings of pro ball under his belt, and is transitioning from coddled reliever to starter...

How he handles the first adveristy to come his way is going to say lot about him...

He does seems like a really solid kid...

 

[LTsharks]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

You really need to know levels and ages to make a true comparison...

Come on, just play along. We can't let this thread slip too far. Without too much thought:ABEDC

 

[Tremendous Upside]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

 

[pigskin pimp]

Like I have said in other threads, I think the best move for the Twins right now is to keep Santana. They can compete with their roster as it is shaped right now. They just need to remain healthy.If they fall out of contention at the break, trade Santana and Nathan for prospects.This team can compete, IMO. If Liriano can come back at 80 %, that is a great # 2 starter.Johan SantanaFrancisco LirianoScott BakerBoof BonserKevin SloweyBullpen top 3:Joe NathanPat NeshekMatt GuerrierOffense has holes offensively, especially on the left side of the infield. They need to DH Mauer a little more, Redmond is a good backup catcher, and Mauer is a great pure hitter. His defense is unreal, but he seems to get worn down at catcher. give him a couple days off a week to DH.

I don't think that there is any way that the current Twins roster can compete in the Central. Then again, I'm a Tigers homer.

1. The Twins can't compete in the central this year.2. Santana has said he won't waive the no trade once the season starts,Thus, he needs to be traded this off season.

#1 is wrong. The Twins have the players to compete in the central. 10 or 12 more wins in 2008 gives them a fighting chance at the division. #2 is wrong. Santana had his agent tell the press that he never said that he wouldn't waive the no trade clause during the season.Thus, the Twins can wait until the offers improve or hold onto their big chip for a while.

 

[Alias]

Sounds like Twins are insisting on Lester AND Ellsbury, not gonna happen with the size of that contract, Twins are getting too greedy.

 

[Dreamer]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

You really need to know levels and ages to make a true comparison...

I knew that question would come up (That was my first thought), but the levels don't really favor one or another too much.

That's a ridiculous statement.

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP Hits ER walks k's ERA WHIP K/9A 184 113 43 46 210 2.10 0.86 1.14B 244 175 66 68 311 2.43 1.00 1.27C 137 126 49 62 113 3.22 1.37 0.82D 146 93 31 52 165 1.91 0.99 1.13E 88 62 24 27 136 2.45 1.01 1.54

You really need to know levels and ages to make a true comparison...

I knew that question would come up (That was my first thought), but the levels don't really favor one or another too much.

That's a ridiculous statement.

You interpreted what I wrote the wrong way. What I was trying to convey was that all the players had enough similarities in the breakdown of innings per stop at A, AA and AAA and to just play along. Obviously, there are differences in minor league levels, but I assumed that was a given.That being said, I had seen a study that showed that players stats seemed to be fairly consistent through the levels. The reasoning was that the team moved you up when you were ready so your numbers are fairly consistent (on average). in this case, it held up pretty well, because it wasn't like someone got shelled at AAA and in fact, one of the guys had his best numbers at AAA...as ridiculous as that may be.

 

[David Yudkin]

I can honestly say that I can't ever remember a 22-page thread on a football site about a trade of a baseball player that hasn't even happened yet.

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

I will add them up when a few more people look at them and then of course reveal them (not some big secret). Obviously just looking at the stats won't tell you the entire story as the biggest jump is from the minors to the majors, but it is interesting to see why so and so was graded so high. One stats that I think deserves more credit is hits per IP. Obviously, if a guy can't throw strikes, it doesn't matter, but I just like to know how tough a guy is to hit as this measures his "stuff."

 

[guru_007]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP Hits ER walks k's ERA WHIP K/9A 184 113 43 46 210 2.10 0.86 1.14B 244 175 66 68 311 2.43 1.00 1.27C 137 126 49 62 113 3.22 1.37 0.82D 146 93 31 52 165 1.91 0.99 1.13E 88 62 24 27 136 2.45 1.01 1.54

OK, I'll play:A

B

D

E

C

I will add them up when a few more people look at them and then of course reveal them (not some big secret). Obviously just looking at the stats won't tell you the entire story as the biggest jump is from the minors to the majors, but it is interesting to see why so and so was graded so high. One stats that I think deserves more credit is hits per IP. Obviously, if a guy can't throw strikes, it doesn't matter, but I just like to know how tough a guy is to hit as this measures his "stuff."

May as well reveal them now, as your post is pretty worthless, imo.You are trying to compare players without giving ages or levels of play...may as well throw Amanda Buttermakers Whurlizer's stats in there too.

 

[shadyridr]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

I looked at the stats last night. Kennedy & Hughes were dominant at every level. Joba had the worst stats of the 3 (but they were still pretty damn good).

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP Hits ER walks k's ERA WHIP K/9A 184 113 43 46 210 2.10 0.86 1.14B 244 175 66 68 311 2.43 1.00 1.27C 137 126 49 62 113 3.22 1.37 0.82D 146 93 31 52 165 1.91 0.99 1.13E 88 62 24 27 136 2.45 1.01 1.54

OK, I'll play:A

B

D

E

C

I will add them up when a few more people look at them and then of course reveal them (not some big secret). Obviously just looking at the stats won't tell you the entire story as the biggest jump is from the minors to the majors, but it is interesting to see why so and so was graded so high. One stats that I think deserves more credit is hits per IP. Obviously, if a guy can't throw strikes, it doesn't matter, but I just like to know how tough a guy is to hit as this measures his "stuff."

May as well reveal them now, as your post is pretty worthless, imo.You are trying to compare players without giving ages or levels of play...may as well throw Amanda Buttermakers Whurlizer's stats in there too.

If your reading comprehension were better you would have known that that it was stated their ages were similar and their % of time at each level was similar enough to not show the different levels, especially because then the sample size would be insignificant. Feel free to look them up if you want to when I reveal them. Like I said before this is nothing we haven't discussed before.

 

[William Munny]

This isnt the Santana rumor mill thread anymore is it?

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

I looked at the stats last night. Kennedy & Hughes were dominant at every level. Joba had the worst stats of the 3 (but they were still pretty damn good).

Joba is E. his stats were better at AAA (and of course the pros-although not a significant enough sample). This is why combining minor league stats does have merit, unless a player struggles mightily when he gets to AAA or even the pros. A and AA don't really matter as the competition is not the jump as it is to AAA and not even close to the AAA to majors jump.

 

[Alias]

This isnt the Santana rumor mill thread anymore is it?

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Twins are getting too greedy.

Too greedy? For the best pitcher in baseball? I don't think that's greed...I think it's good business

 

[Liquid Tension]

Twins are getting too greedy.

Too greedy? For the best pitcher in baseball? I don't think that's greed...I think it's good business

I agree, nothing says they have to trade him. Regardless of what anyone thinks, if Liriano can pitch well and you have Santana with Nathan at the end along with some offense you could win. You may need some injuries on the other team but that isn't absurd to think.

 

[Frostillicus]

Like I have said in other threads, I think the best move for the Twins right now is to keep Santana. They can compete with their roster as it is shaped right now. They just need to remain healthy.If they fall out of contention at the break, trade Santana and Nathan for prospects.This team can compete, IMO. If Liriano can come back at 80 %, that is a great # 2 starter.Johan SantanaFrancisco LirianoScott BakerBoof BonserKevin SloweyBullpen top 3:Joe NathanPat NeshekMatt GuerrierOffense has holes offensively, especially on the left side of the infield. They need to DH Mauer a little more, Redmond is a good backup catcher, and Mauer is a great pure hitter. His defense is unreal, but he seems to get worn down at catcher. give him a couple days off a week to DH.

I don't think that there is any way that the current Twins roster can compete in the Central. Then again, I'm a Tigers homer.

1. The Twins can't compete in the central this year.2. Santana has said he won't waive the no trade once the season starts,Thus, he needs to be traded this off season.

#1 is wrong. The Twins have the players to compete in the central. 10 or 12 more wins in 2008 gives them a fighting chance at the division. #2 is wrong. Santana had his agent tell the press that he never said that he wouldn't waive the no trade clause during the season.Thus, the Twins can wait until the offers improve or hold onto their big chip for a while.

1. As a Twins fan, I don't think they have a prayer against either the Indians or the Tigers. At all. We'll just have to disagree on this.2. I hadn't head that part, and I'm actually glad to hear it.I'd still rather have him traded this offseason, but I don't want them to settle for too little either. It's certainly interesting. If the Sox would just offer Buchholz, Lester, Lowrie, Ellsbury, and Pedroia we could end all this speculation.

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

Both LTSharks and Upside had the same ratings except moving E and D around.They both had C last. This is LesterThey both had A first, this is HughesThey both had B 2nd and this is BuchholzD is KennedyE is Joba

 

[David Yudkin]

This isnt the Santana rumor mill thread anymore is it?

Fine, I guess we'll have to get back to the trade talks then . . .

Sox not close on Santana From the Herald's Rob Bradford (10:58 a.m.): "It appears, talking to other execs, the Twins may be simply weighing their offers regarding Johan Santana." From the Globe's Gordon Edes (10:45 a.m.): "Theo is leaving the building ... without a deal for Johan Santana. After today's Rule 5 draft, Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein said there would continue to be an open dialogue with the Twins, but that he was leaving the winter meetings."

 

[guru_007]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

Both LTSharks and Upside had the same ratings except moving E and D around.They both had C last. This is LesterThey both had A first, this is HughesThey both had B 2nd and this is BuchholzD is KennedyE is Joba

Good stuff here You do understand Lester was diagnosed with cancer in 2006...so I'm fairly confident there was a point in your original post? I mean after all, giving us two years worth of stats for early 20-something players is significant and all....may have thrown a little asterik next to c though as he had bigger things on his mind maybe than throwing to AA hitters?

 

[shadyridr]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

Both LTSharks and Upside had the same ratings except moving E and D around.They both had C last. This is LesterThey both had A first, this is HughesThey both had B 2nd and this is BuchholzD is KennedyE is Joba

Good stuff here You do understand Lester was diagnosed with cancer in 2006...so I'm fairly confident there was a point in your original post? I mean after all, giving us two years worth of stats for early 20-something players is significant and all....may have thrown a little asterik next to c though as he had bigger things on his mind maybe than throwing to AA hitters?

One thing that needs to be mentioned is Ian Kennedy has put up dominant #s in every level he played. He pitched well in his first few major league starts. He is a polished kid out of USC and was a first rounder. I just dont think people give him enough credit cuz he doesnt have dominant stuff. But it really wouldnt surprise me if he turned out the best of the big 3 Yankee prospects.

 

[Liquid Tension]

IP Hits ER walks k's ERA WHIP K/9Hughes 184 113 43 46 210 2.10 0.86 1.14Buchholz 244 175 66 68 311 2.43 1.00 1.27Lester 137 126 49 62 113 3.22 1.37 0.82 Kennedy 146 93 31 52 165 1.91 0.99 1.13Joba 88 62 24 27 136 2.45 1.01 1.54Miller 83 73 26 26 70 2.82 1.19 0.84This may make it easier- I also added Andrew Miller's numbers (Not including his awful Major league numbers). He doesn't seem like as good a prospect as most of these guys (Doctor Detroit?).Joba's K rate is phenomenal, but Buchholz was still good for the most innings.

One thing that I noticed that surprised me was the very solid numbers from Ian Kennedy in the minors. When I watched him pitch last year I commented that this guy will be a very solid pitcher in the majors. he may not be an ace but he will be a good #3. I didn't realize how good his hit/IP ratio was, I just thought he had a very good repertoire. the Yankees have someone in their minor leagues that is doing a good job with teaching the changeup because they are coming up with it (Joba excluded)

 

[Alias]

Twins are getting too greedy.

Too greedy? For the best pitcher in baseball? I don't think that's greed...I think it's good business

High priced players typically do not garner the quality and value of prospects in return since the acquiring team takes a hit in the salary it needs to pay out. You cannot just evaluate a trade based on the skill of the player being traded, you need to take into consideration the contract that goes along with that player.

 

[Sammy3469]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

Both LTSharks and Upside had the same ratings except moving E and D around.They both had C last. This is LesterThey both had A first, this is HughesThey both had B 2nd and this is BuchholzD is KennedyE is Joba

Good stuff here You do understand Lester was diagnosed with cancer in 2006...so I'm fairly confident there was a point in your original post? I mean after all, giving us two years worth of stats for early 20-something players is significant and all....may have thrown a little asterik next to c though as he had bigger things on his mind maybe than throwing to AA hitters?

One thing that needs to be mentioned is Ian Kennedy has put up dominant #s in every level he played. He pitched well in his first few major league starts. He is a polished kid out of USC and was a first rounder. I just dont think people give him enough credit cuz he doesnt have dominant stuff. But it really wouldnt surprise me if he turned out the best of the big 3 Yankee prospects.

Quite frankly, I'd be shocked if he turned out to be the best of the 3. He's gotten by on limiting hits this past year and I'm just not sure that can continue in the majors to the same extent since he doesn't have the overpowering stuff. His basic MO is to make hitters make bad contact which is fine in the minors when some of those guys have trouble hitting non-fastballs, but once you get to the majors that all changes. Having said that i wouldn't be shocked if he had a better career than Joba who I think has the highest bust potential as a SP and who I wouldn't be shocked if he ended in the bullpen.

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

Both LTSharks and Upside had the same ratings except moving E and D around.They both had C last. This is LesterThey both had A first, this is HughesThey both had B 2nd and this is BuchholzD is KennedyE is Joba

Good stuff here You do understand Lester was diagnosed with cancer in 2006...so I'm fairly confident there was a point in your original post? I mean after all, giving us two years worth of stats for early 20-something players is significant and all....may have thrown a little asterik next to c though as he had bigger things on his mind maybe than throwing to AA hitters?

yeah, that is fair, but i was just listing what the numbers were. It is a great story, but if you look at his stuff and then the numbers he is the least desirable guy IMO.

 

[Sammy3469]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

Both LTSharks and Upside had the same ratings except moving E and D around.They both had C last. This is LesterThey both had A first, this is HughesThey both had B 2nd and this is BuchholzD is KennedyE is Joba

Good stuff here You do understand Lester was diagnosed with cancer in 2006...so I'm fairly confident there was a point in your original post? I mean after all, giving us two years worth of stats for early 20-something players is significant and all....may have thrown a little asterik next to c though as he had bigger things on his mind maybe than throwing to AA hitters?

yeah, that is fair, but i was just listing what the numbers were. It is a great story, but if you look at his stuff and then the numbers he is the least desirable guy IMO.

He's a left hander with a 95mph fastball and a plus curve and a plus change-up. His top projection as a #2 is better than Kennedy. Plus you're throwing out numbers which are probably more than a little meaningless.

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP Hits ER walks k's ERA WHIP K/9A 184 113 43 46 210 2.10 0.86 1.14B 244 175 66 68 311 2.43 1.00 1.27C 137 126 49 62 113 3.22 1.37 0.82D 146 93 31 52 165 1.91 0.99 1.13E 88 62 24 27 136 2.45 1.01 1.54

OK, I'll play:A

B

D

E

C

Both LTSharks and Upside had the same ratings except moving E and D around.They both had C last. This is Lester

They both had A first, this is Hughes

They both had B 2nd and this is Buchholz

D is Kennedy

E is Joba

Good stuff here You do understand Lester was diagnosed with cancer in 2006...so I'm fairly confident there was a point in your original post? I mean after all, giving us two years worth of stats for early 20-something players is significant and all....may have thrown a little asterik next to c though as he had bigger things on his mind maybe than throwing to AA hitters?

One thing that needs to be mentioned is Ian Kennedy has put up dominant #s in every level he played. He pitched well in his first few major league starts. He is a polished kid out of USC and was a first rounder. I just dont think people give him enough credit cuz he doesnt have dominant stuff. But it really wouldnt surprise me if he turned out the best of the big 3 Yankee prospects.

So you have Hughes better than Joba and you wouldn't be surprised if Kennedy is the best out of all of them though Just busting you. I hope they are all dominant. Someone posted how any Yankee fan couldn't like their staff. I posted why it would be in the top half and could be solid if they can hit on 1 or 2 of these guys. there is no reason why they can't be respectable and with the Yanks offense that is good.

One problem most every person has is that they project by only looking at what just happened last and thinking certain players can't get worse. I love Posada, but do you think he will have as good a year as last year? What about Lowell and Ellsbury? Nobody talks about the 363 AB's Ellsbury had at AAA last year we he had an OPS of .735. Even with his SB's adjusted his OPS is still below .800,

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

Both LTSharks and Upside had the same ratings except moving E and D around.They both had C last. This is LesterThey both had A first, this is HughesThey both had B 2nd and this is BuchholzD is KennedyE is Joba

Good stuff here You do understand Lester was diagnosed with cancer in 2006...so I'm fairly confident there was a point in your original post? I mean after all, giving us two years worth of stats for early 20-something players is significant and all....may have thrown a little asterik next to c though as he had bigger things on his mind maybe than throwing to AA hitters?

yeah, that is fair, but i was just listing what the numbers were. It is a great story, but if you look at his stuff and then the numbers he is the least desirable guy IMO.

He's a left hander with a 95mph fastball and a plus curve and a plus change-up. His top projection as a #2 is better than Kennedy. Plus you're throwing out numbers which are probably more than a little meaningless.

Yeah, I could see how WHIP, ERA, K/IP, etc... are all meaningless... Maybe I should post his batting average?

 

[Darth Cheney]

THEY ARE ALL GOING TO BE DECENT PLAYERS!!!!!!! We talk and talk and talk and throw out number upon number to try to discredit the other side all the while ignoring our players' faults and our opponents' players benefits. It's insane. It's nothing more than mental masturbation about players' numbers which are all affected by a myraid of situations. We all watch baseball.... we've all played it. We know the goods when we see them. All of these players on the Sox and Yanks have the goods in some way or another. Some are better....some are worse...but hopefully, all should provide quality baseball for years to come While I don't like the RedSox having such decent young players....I am very excited about the quality of games that are going to be played between the two teams for the next 10 years and the satisfaction of seeing Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy dominate them time and time again...

 

[Alias]

THEY ARE ALL GOING TO BE DECENT PLAYERS!!!!!!! We talk and talk and talk and throw out number upon number to try to discredit the other side all the while ignoring our players' faults and our opponents' players benefits. It's insane. It's nothing more than mental masturbation about players' numbers which are all affected by a myraid of situations. We all watch baseball.... we've all played it. We know the goods when we see them. All of these players on the Sox and Yanks have the goods in some way or another. Some are better....some are worse...but hopefully, all should provide quality baseball for years to come While I don't like the RedSox having such decent young players....I am very excited about the quality of games that are going to be played between the two teams for the next 10 years and the satisfaction of seeing Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy dominate them time and time again...

 

[Gopher State]

If a reasonable trade can't be made, Minnesota should make a strong effort to retain its standout lefthander by making him an offer that he can live with.

By Sid Hartman, Star Tribune

Look for the Twins to make a strong effort to sign Johan Santana to a long-term contract if the Boston Red Sox don't improve their trade offer for Minnesota's star lefthanded pitcher.

Santana is under contract for next season, so the Twins don't have to be in a hurry. They could try to sign Santana or trade him at a later date.

The demands of Santana's agent have scared a lot of teams and it's possible the Twins' five-year, $93 million offer -- which includes $13 million for the 2007 season -- could be adjusted to satisfy Santana.

At least look for a strong push to be made to sign Santana to a multiyear contract if a reasonable trade can't be made.

A report that Santana had told the Twins he wouldn't accept a trade during the 2007 season was not accurate, Twins president Dave St. Peter said.

The Yankees definitely have pulled out of the Santana bidding and there isn't any chance they will change their mind, according to people close to the team.

Money became a factor in the Yankees' decision after pitcher Andy Pettitte decided to come back. Pettitte will be paid $16 million this season.

Had Petititte not decided to come back, it might have been a different story and the Yankees might have tried to complete a deal for Santana.

The word is that after signing Pettitte, Alex Rodriguez, Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera, it would have been difficult even for the Yankees to give Santana more than the seven-year, $126 million deal the Giants gave lefthander Barry Zito last year.

Another factor in the Yankees backing off is that they really didn't want to give up pitcher Phil Hughes, who they believe has a good future.

Looking more like Santana will stay with the Twins for the start of the season

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

Both LTSharks and Upside had the same ratings except moving E and D around.They both had C last. This is LesterThey both had A first, this is HughesThey both had B 2nd and this is BuchholzD is KennedyE is Joba

Good stuff here You do understand Lester was diagnosed with cancer in 2006...so I'm fairly confident there was a point in your original post? I mean after all, giving us two years worth of stats for early 20-something players is significant and all....may have thrown a little asterik next to c though as he had bigger things on his mind maybe than throwing to AA hitters?

One thing that needs to be mentioned is Ian Kennedy has put up dominant #s in every level he played. He pitched well in his first few major league starts. He is a polished kid out of USC and was a first rounder. I just dont think people give him enough credit cuz he doesnt have dominant stuff. But it really wouldnt surprise me if he turned out the best of the big 3 Yankee prospects.

Quite frankly, I'd be shocked if he turned out to be the best of the 3. He's gotten by on limiting hits this past year and I'm just not sure that can continue in the majors to the same extent since he doesn't have the overpowering stuff. His basic MO is to make hitters make bad contact which is fine in the minors when some of those guys have trouble hitting non-fastballs, but once you get to the majors that all changes. Having said that i wouldn't be shocked if he had a better career than Joba who I think has the highest bust potential as a SP and who I wouldn't be shocked if he ended in the bullpen.

I think you may not be giving Kennedy enough credit, but your point is made. My questionis why you think Joba has the most bust potential? lack of experience? Lack of innings? Lack of stuff? lack of repertoire to be a starter? BTW, if the Yanks had signed Santana, I would think he would have gone to the pen, especially for the postseason where he could help the situation a lot more.Switching gears slightly, the Yanks MUST get a lefty who can get lefties out in the pen. Villone is a lefty but no specialist.

 

[Liquid Tension]

So rank these minor league stats for 2006 and 2007

IP	Hits	ER	walks	k's	ERA	WHIP	K/9A	184	113	43	46	210	2.10	0.86	1.14B	244	175	66	68	311	2.43	1.00	1.27C	137	126	49	62	113	3.22	1.37	0.82D	146	93	31	52	165	1.91	0.99	1.13E	88	62	24	27	136	2.45	1.01	1.54

OK, I'll play:ABDE C

Both LTSharks and Upside had the same ratings except moving E and D around.They both had C last. This is LesterThey both had A first, this is HughesThey both had B 2nd and this is BuchholzD is KennedyE is Joba

Good stuff here You do understand Lester was diagnosed with cancer in 2006...so I'm fairly confident there was a point in your original post? I mean after all, giving us two years worth of stats for early 20-something players is significant and all....may have thrown a little asterik next to c though as he had bigger things on his mind maybe than throwing to AA hitters?

yeah, that is fair, but i was just listing what the numbers were. It is a great story, but if you look at his stuff and then the numbers he is the least desirable guy IMO.

He's a left hander with a 95mph fastball and a plus curve and a plus change-up. His top projection as a #2 is better than Kennedy. Plus you're throwing out numbers which are probably more than a little meaningless.

When I watched him I didn't see him consistently at 95 MPH. He also didn't have great movement on his fastball. His other stuff seemed average. My sample of watching was only a few games though.

 

[Sammy3469]

Former Rule 5 success stories include Josh Hamilton and a pitcher named Johan Santana.

Really?To sum, I think Lester's stats are relatively meaningless since he's been fighting cancer for god knows how long, I think Joba can still bust since as a SP he can't throw 98-100mph gas every pitch, and I don't think Kennedy will be as successful as preventing hits in the ML as he was in the minors since he's not a pure GB pitcher, but I'm prepared to be wrong on that.

Oh and the Red Sox have left Nashville so it looks like nothing will happen with them anytime soon.

 

[shadyridr]

Former Rule 5 success stories include Josh Hamilton and a pitcher named Johan Santana.

Really?To sum, I think Lester's stats are relatively meaningless since he's been fighting cancer for god knows how long, I think Joba can still bust since as a SP he can't throw 98-100mph gas every pitch, and I don't think Kennedy will be as successful as preventing hits in the ML as he was in the minors since he's not a pure GB pitcher, but I'm prepared to be wrong on that.

Oh and the Red Sox have left Nashville so it looks like nothing will happen with them anytime soon.

I believe from the Astros