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"The Patriots Spread the Ball Around" (1 Viewer)

No I have him penciled in for 6.My stat line for him is 49 / 743 / 6that may be overly conservative, but i think he will be WR2 in terms of production to stallworth.
Overly conservative is putting it mildly. The WR2 in New England averages 50 receptions per year. So you're saying he's slightly below the quality of David Patten, Jabar Gaffney, old Troy Brown, and rookie Deion Branch. And Moss had 42/553/3 in 13 games last year, which would put him on pace for 52/680/3. So you apparently also think that Brady is about as good as Andrew Walter.
As many people in this thread have pointed out, the Patriots change to fit whatever personnel they may have. You can't say the Patriots have never had their number one wr have a monster season but Moss will be the first because he's much more talented than the other #1 options they've had in the past, while at the same time citing past performances of inferior wr's when stating why Stallworth (or Moss, whoever the #2 will be) won't do much.
I said he will do better than other #1 receivers in the past, because I think he is better than their other #1 receivers have been. I pointed out that bagger's projections implied that he is worse than Patten, Gaffney, Brown, and rookie Branch. There's nothing inconsistent about that at all. I've also been pretty consistent in this: I've asked people why they think Moss' skills have declined. So far, nobody has answered. I've explained why I think he appeared to have lost a step in Oakland, and I've voiced my concerns that he will deal with the same issues here. But in my mind, a healthy, motivated Moss is still much, much more talented than anyone the Pats have had in Brady's tenure, and more talented than anyone currently on the team, which is why I put him at about 82/1200/9, but bump him down a little on my chart because of the risk.
 
No I have him penciled in for 6.My stat line for him is 49 / 743 / 6that may be overly conservative, but i think he will be WR2 in terms of production to stallworth.
Overly conservative is putting it mildly. The WR2 in New England averages 50 receptions per year. So you're saying he's slightly below the quality of David Patten, Jabar Gaffney, old Troy Brown, and rookie Deion Branch. And Moss had 42/553/3 in 13 games last year, which would put him on pace for 52/680/3. So you apparently also think that Brady is about as good as Andrew Walter.
i don't think he will play a full season, and yes, Moss has declined dramatically. with that said i am bumping him 200 yards and 3 TDs from last year.i thought that was nice.
Why don't you think he's going to play a full season? What other players do you predict to play less than a full season? If you as a Raiders fan are saying that Moss has declined dramatically, why don't the players and coaches think so? I can give a reasonable explanation for why New England coaches would think that he was still very very good, but Oakland fans and coaches would think he's declined: He tried hard the first year, and was dogging it a little in Oakland in the second year, while dealing with minor injuries. Can you give me a reasonable explanation why Oakland fans and coaches would think he had declined, but New England players and coaches would think he was still very good?
We don't know how good the Patriots think he can/will be. We know they think he'll outperform whatever they would have picked up with their draft pick they gave up but IIRC, that was only a fourth rounder. When you look at it in that light that does not automatically mean they think he's still a stud. To me, that's a case of such POTENTIAL that the risk/reward is well worth the gamble.
It doesn't sound like you've been reading Belichick's, Peas', or the players' comments on Moss.
 
I've also been pretty consistent in this: I've asked people why they think Moss' skills have declined. So far, nobody has answered.
The last couple of years he hasn't been getting separation, hasn't been outcompeting DBs for the ball, hasn't shown great speed to get deep, hasn't been effective going over the middle (on the very rare occasions he does go over the middle), hasn't been beating double teams, and has had problems actually catching/hanging on to the ball.I've said the above before as well. The hands thing, that's a lack of concentration, maybe he can get that back. But the rest, honestly, I don't have great hope of him reversing.
 
The Pats won't change their approach much because of Moss... I just expect Moss to do more with his opportunities than Branch/Caldwell/T Brown/D Givens/Patten/etc did.

Maybe they add a few wrinkles in that fit Moss's game a bit more (jump balls, end zone fades, etc), but their overall gameplan won't revolve around Randy Moss.

Here's my training camp anecdote:

I showed up on that first friday night looking to see all the new players... especially Adallius and Moss.

The free Training Camp roster guide had Moss listed as #6.

I couldn't find him anywhere.

But I noticed right away that it wasn't as easy to spot Ben Watson with the receivers anymore... last year, Watson was easy to see; he was a giant among midgets. This year, the WR's were all a lot bigger, Watson just didn't stand out as much.

Welker was everything advertised: high motor guy, didn't stop running tons of short crossing routes, and caught pretty much everything.

Over on the second practice field, there was another WR, #81. The guy was tall and skinny and he was catching everything... smooth and effortless... and he kept doing it on every route. I figured it was Kelley Washington... I knew Washington was out there and he wasn't listed in the program. I remember thinking, holy crap, this guy's gonna' be fantastic... stuck behind CJ and Housh, CIN didn't know what they were losing. #81 was machine... effortless strides and stick'em hands. I've watched all the Shawn Jefferson's, Bethel Johnson's, and Reche Caldwell's come thru NE... this #81 was as sure handed as T Brown or D Branch in their haydays... but with so much more size and speed and raw ability. It wasn't until #81 switched over to practice field 1 and took off his helmet that I knew it was Randy Moss... listed as #6 in the program, wearing #81 on the field. I kinda' did a, "no ####" to myself and of course proceeded to watch him closely the remainder of practice.

And like Welker, Moss was everything as advertised. You didn't have to be an expert to see he had a presece on the field, you didn't have to be an expert to see that he was physically gifted even among other elite football players. And you didn't have to be a scout either to notice that he was often the last guy to get back to the huddle and was consistently last (with NT V Wilfork) in just about every run/sprint.

My unprofessional, just a fan's opinion:

Moss is easily the most talented WR NE has had here with BB and Brady.

As long as he stays healthy and NE is winning (to keep his head on straight), he'll do just fine:

75/1050/10.

 
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There's a reason Dougie Gabriel left and went back to Oakland. There just isn't room for anybody to catch flanker passes on this team other than Randy Moss and Donte Stallworth. :shrug:

 
As a life-long Patriots fan, I'm amused reading this thread with everyone prognosticating but the truth of the matter is and will continue to be; it is all circumstansial. The Patriots are a team who plays week to week schemes based on their matchups. If one week they believe it a situation allows them to pound the ball with Heath Evans and Laurence Maroney getting 40 carries between them, that's what they'll do. And it will be boring to watch and it will probably be in a rainy game in Foxboro vs. someone like Chicago. The whole Moss situation and attention plays well into the Pats hands. One week Moss will have 3 targets and one reception for 28 yards. The next week he will have 4 receptions for 65 yards. The next week he will have 2 receptions for 90 yards and a TD. I think he will be used as a distraction and a decoy while they continue to unload the ball to Jabar Gaffney, Wes Welker, and Ben Watson. Oh look, its Kevin Faulk. Oh look, it's Kevin Faulk again. Oh, look Maroney for 5 yards. A quick out to Caldwell. They Move the chains again. Oh, a quick off tackle from Heath Evans. Oh, now you roll the Free Safety over and guess what, it's Moss on a deep ball for 31 yards. Then Moss sits for 13 straight plays and Stallworth gets looks deep while the continue to expose the underbelly. These guys are all interchangeable parts for various attacks. There is no WR1, WR2, etc.
:whistle: This is the best post in the thread. Read it. Read it again if you already read it.It gets worse for Moss's projections from here if he has indeed sharply declined physically (which honestly I think he has) and/or gets injured again.
I agree that the Patriots would do this. If Moss was a one dimensional deep threat, I would be arguing the exact same thing. And in fact, I think this is a pretty good description of how Stallworth's year will play out - I have him down for a pretty unspectacular year. The thing is, Moss is the one guy on this offense who can get deep, go over the middle, jump for balls in the end zone, and pretty much run every route on the field. The best analogy I can give is this: The Patriots love guys who can play more than one position. There was a time when Kevin Faulk was lining up as a wide receiver when they went five wide because that was the best option they had. We all know that Troy Brown played defensive back, Seymour has played fullback, and Vrabel has a couple big Superbowl TDs as a tight end. We also know that the Patriots like guys with positional flexibility like Adalius Thomas and Brandon Meriweather and Mike Vrabel. Similarly, Moss is a more complete receiver than anything the Pats have had in a while. Givens used to be their best end zone target, but he wasn't big enough to muscle it. He could do the fade route, but that's about it. Fauria was a good short yardage tight end for a year or two, but that's not really Watson's game. Brown and Branch are quick, good route runners, with good hands, but they don't really have the deep speed. Kind of like Welker. Patten had decent speed, but it was hardly world class, and he was average or below at everything else. Stallworth is better than Patten, but he gets nicked up a lot, and he hasn't been on the field much yet. Faulk is quick, but not very fast, and he is getting older. Caldwell isn't the most reliable receiver. Moss, on the other hand, can run good routes. He's faster than anyone on the team except maybe Stallworth. He accelerates better than anyone except maybe Stallworth. He can catch the underneath stuff. He can catch the sideline pass. He can jump for the ball. And he is one of the best goal line wide receivers in the league. The Pats love him for the exact reason that the above post ignores - they believe they can use him on any kind of route, in any kind of situation. That's why he will be the #1.
Wes Welker will lead the team in receptions. I would even suggest bumping my statement in January.I'm not sure if you think you can define the Patriots #1 as other teams do but it won't happen. They will use Moss tacticly, not as a centerpiece. If it means hiding him and using him sparingly with a "hamstring concern" for three weeks so they can spring him on Indy for 4-specfic plays, they will do that. Tthey don't need to lean on him possesion in and out to win games and they won't. Watch. Moss is not one-dimensional but this team has receivers that cover all dimensions so they will not need Moss to be that guy. I still think observers analyze this upcoming offense completely off-base. Moss may appear in Week 1 as the PRIMARY receiver vs. the Jets and in fact it will just be there to soften up another spot for exposure. There will be games however in which Moss gets a significant amount of work and may or may not impact the game. But watch, Moss will make a play and they will PULL HIM off the field for several more and rotate in someone else. Then you have to remember Kevin Faulk, Sammy Morris, Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, and Heath Evans will all see work. And not in your expected typical, well this is this down so Morris will go in to spell Maroney. NE doesn't play that way. If it means hitting Kevin Faulk for 11 receptions that week or running screens over and over again to Heath Evans or Sammy Morris, they will do that. They don't care about primary or who is #1 on the depth chart. NE likes to mix and match, create confusion, and keep teams off balance. I think Moss will have some incredibly productive games and they may even come in September but over the course of the season, I don't think it will be what you think it will. It just doesn't work that way. All this superior skill does is allow you to completely maximize your matchups. You could always expose a defense with a correctly drawn play, correct QB read, and get the ball to whomever. Now it will just be that those defensive mistakes will probably pay off with bigger rewards. Also, I would like to note that I do not think Culpepper was ever that great of a QB. His MO was to just launch it to Randy and let Randy take over. There may be cases where Brady, in a desperate moment, does just that. But, that is extremely rare. Brady is very well-versed in his job and usually is not put in situations where that type of approach takes place. Again, don't judge anything by small samples. Look at the entire body of work. Come January I think it will be evident their approach was still the same with better skill players in those schemes. Then come playoffs they will spring their hidden weapons on you. Maybe that will be Randy but it could just as well be Bam Childress. Belichick will even go as far as using Moss lazy image to his advantage and let Moss appear to be dogging it at times just to set up something later.
 
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I pointed out that bagger's projections implied that he is worse than Patten, Gaffney, Brown, and rookie Branch.
my projections do nothing of the sort. 2006 New England WR stats:
Code:
+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Name				 |  G |  RSH  YARD   AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD   AVG  TD |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Troy Brown		   | 16 |	2	18   9.0   0  |   43   384   8.9   4 || Reche Caldwell	   | 16 |	1	 5   5.0   0  |   61   760  12.5   4 || Brandon Childress	|  2 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |	2	 7   3.5   0 || Doug Gabriel		 | 12 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |   25   344  13.8   3 || Jabar Gaffney		| 10 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |   11   142  12.9   1 || Chad Jackson		 | 12 |	4	22   5.5   0  |   13   152  11.7   3 || Kelvin Kight		 |  4 |	1	 8   8.0   0  |	1	 9   9.0   0 || Jonathan Smith	   |  2 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |	0	 0   0.0   0 |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+
My projections have Moss performing better than any WR on the Pats last year.2005 New England WR stats:
Code:
+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Name				 |  G |  RSH  YARD   AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD   AVG  TD |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Deion Branch		 | 16 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |   78   998  12.8   5 || Troy Brown		   | 13 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |   39   466  11.9   2 || Brandon Childress	|  1 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |	3	32  10.7   0 || Andre Davis		  |  9 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |	9   190  21.1   1 || Tim Dwight		   | 16 |	4	11   2.8   0  |   19   332  17.5   3 || David Givens		 | 13 |	2	13   6.5   0  |   59   738  12.5   2 || Bethel Johnson	   | 11 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |	4	67  16.8   1 |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+
My projections have Moss outperforming everyone but Branch in 2005.2004 New England WR stats:
Code:
+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Name				 |  G |  RSH  YARD   AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD   AVG  TD |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Deion Branch		 |  9 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |   35   454  13.0   4 || Troy Brown		   | 12 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |   17   184  10.8   1 || David Givens		 | 15 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |   56   874  15.6   3 || Bethel Johnson	   | 13 |	2	 8   4.0   0  |   10   174  17.4   1 || David Patten		 | 16 |	1	 5   5.0   0  |   44   800  18.2   7 |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+
Again, my projections have Moss outperforming every WR in New England in 2004.You are acting like my projections are completely out of whack, when put in perspective of past history, they are right in line with New England WR production. You add in Moss' horrific performance last year and his clear decline in PPG stats over the past 3 years, and the evidence is pretty stacked against Moss.You can rationalize it all you want, but I am looking at the facts.
 
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I've asked people why they think Moss' skills have declined.
And I have answered in other threads. He is older, does not get separation like he used to, has an attitude problem if he is not "The Man", and past history is showing a decline. Going to New England does not give me any confidence that this decline he is in will turn around.He has missed 3 games in 2 of the last 3 seasons. Your projections should not include a full season of stats for him.If I take his 16 PPG from 2004 (PPR league) and multiply it by 13 games, he gets to an average positional rank of #WR22. That is a pretty big upside taking his best PPG year in the last 3 years (which was 3 years ago). Even being aggressive Moss is not sniffing the top 20.You are projecting top 10 numbers. It's insane.
 
My stat line for him is 49 / 743 / 6
2006 New England WR stats:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Name | G | RSH YARD AVG TD | REC YARD AVG TD |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Reche Caldwell | 16 | 1 5 5.0 0 | 61 760 12.5 4 |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+My projections have Moss performing better than any WR on the Pats last year.
Better at what? Catching 6 TDs?
2005 New England WR stats:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Name | G | RSH YARD AVG TD | REC YARD AVG TD |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Deion Branch | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 78 998 12.8 5 || David Givens | 13 | 2 13 6.5 0 | 59 738 12.5 2 |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+My projections have Moss outperforming everyone but Branch in 2005.
You have him almost exactly equal to David Givens.
2004 New England WR stats:

Code:
+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Name				 |  G |  RSH  YARD   AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD   AVG  TD |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| David Givens		 | 15 |	0	 0   0.0   0  |   56   874  15.6   3 || David Patten		 | 16 |	1	 5   5.0   0  |   44   800  18.2   7 |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+
Again, my projections have Moss outperforming every WR in New England in 2004.
You have him getting outperformed by Patten in every category except receptions, and by Givens in every category except TDs.
 
talking fantasy points here.

my line is right in the ballpark to be the #1 WR or just below the #1 WR for the last 3 years.

you think Moss of old will magically come back and blow these stats out of the water.

maybe there is a 5% chance of that happening. but i certainly wouldn't have it as my base projection.

 
I've asked people why they think Moss' skills have declined.
And I have answered in other threads. He is older, does not get separation like he used to, has an attitude problem if he is not "The Man", and past history is showing a decline. Going to New England does not give me any confidence that this decline he is in will turn around.He has missed 3 games in 2 of the last 3 seasons. Your projections should not include a full season of stats for him.If I take his 16 PPG from 2004 (PPR league) and multiply it by 13 games, he gets to an average positional rank of #WR22. That is a pretty big upside taking his best PPG year in the last 3 years (which was 3 years ago). Even being aggressive Moss is not sniffing the top 20.You are projecting top 10 numbers. It's insane.
Moss averaged 18.5 PPG in 2004. You may have forgotten that he suited up for games he did not play. It may have sucked for fantasy owners to see him suited up for the game, but it's not a useful thing to measure when discussing the numbers he can put up. The guy had 13 TDs in 11 games, some of which he played injured. His first two games back from injury were two of his worst, including the only game of that season when he didn't score a TD. In 2005, he averaged 14 PPG in the 15 games he played (he missed most of the San Diego game with injury). Although to be fair, he did have the great Kerry Collins throwing the ball to him. In 2006, he averaged 12 PPG in the first 8 games. At that point, they were 2-6, and he had stated and restated his desire to be traded. He then uttered the famous words "Maybe because I'm unhappy, and I'm not too much excited about what's going on, so my concentration and focus level tends to go down when I'm in a bad mood. So all I can say is, if you put me in a good situation and make me happy, man, you get good results." In the five games from when he requested a trade until that quote, he had 25 catches for 366 yards and 2 TDs, for an average of over 15 PPG. The rest of the season, he had 10 catches for 106 yards and 0 TDs in 5 games, all losses, for an average of 4 PPG. He ended the season after week 14. By projecting 82 catches for 1200 yards and 9 TDs, I am projecting 16 PPG. I've also said that I think you should draft him lower than those numbers due to the risk. If you're right, then his skills declined the most just after he requested a trade, didn't get it, said he wasn't excited and his concentration was going down. I'll defer to Occam's razor on this one.
 
talking fantasy points here.my line is right in the ballpark to be the #1 WR or just below the #1 WR for the last 3 years.you think Moss of old will magically come back and blow these stats out of the water.maybe there is a 5% chance of that happening. but i certainly wouldn't have it as my base projection.
I don't think he'll be Moss of old. I just don't think he'll be Moss of Oakland. I think we just completely disagree on what Moss has left in the tank. I think his numbers have been down because he's been injured, because he's been dogging it, because Oakland has sucked, and because the quarterbacking has been horrendous. Tom Brady is a slight upgrade over Andrew Walters. You think that his performance in Oakland and in his last, injured season in Minnesota is indicative of a long term decline. I explained my projections, and the basis for them, and how Stallworth and Welker would still be able to get theirs. I also explained that my projections did not account for the risks associated with him. I agree that there is risk, I just think you're overstating it. Maybe I'm understating it. Either way, good discussion. FWIW, I also think you're overrating Stallworth. Stallworth has never had 1000 yards, has missed more games than Moss earlier in his career, has been injured since he got here, and the team isn't talking him up anywhere near as much as they're talking about Moss. Yet you're predicting him to be the #1 receiver on the team. I don't see that at all. I see him as a guy they like, but I don't think he's their #1. He's a good but not great receiver who gives them a deep threat when healthy and who can catch some deep balls and some TDs. That's a great addition to the team, but if anyone was going to get lost in the shuffle, I think it would be him.
 
No I have him penciled in for 6.My stat line for him is 49 / 743 / 6that may be overly conservative, but i think he will be WR2 in terms of production to stallworth.
Overly conservative is putting it mildly. The WR2 in New England averages 50 receptions per year. So you're saying he's slightly below the quality of David Patten, Jabar Gaffney, old Troy Brown, and rookie Deion Branch. And Moss had 42/553/3 in 13 games last year, which would put him on pace for 52/680/3. So you apparently also think that Brady is about as good as Andrew Walter.
As many people in this thread have pointed out, the Patriots change to fit whatever personnel they may have. You can't say the Patriots have never had their number one wr have a monster season but Moss will be the first because he's much more talented than the other #1 options they've had in the past, while at the same time citing past performances of inferior wr's when stating why Stallworth (or Moss, whoever the #2 will be) won't do much.
I said he will do better than other #1 receivers in the past, because I think he is better than their other #1 receivers have been. I pointed out that bagger's projections implied that he is worse than Patten, Gaffney, Brown, and rookie Branch. There's nothing inconsistent about that at all. I've also been pretty consistent in this: I've asked people why they think Moss' skills have declined. So far, nobody has answered. I've explained why I think he appeared to have lost a step in Oakland, and I've voiced my concerns that he will deal with the same issues here. But in my mind, a healthy, motivated Moss is still much, much more talented than anyone the Pats have had in Brady's tenure, and more talented than anyone currently on the team, which is why I put him at about 82/1200/9, but bump him down a little on my chart because of the risk.
Gotcha. Fair enough.
 
No I have him penciled in for 6.My stat line for him is 49 / 743 / 6that may be overly conservative, but i think he will be WR2 in terms of production to stallworth.
Overly conservative is putting it mildly. The WR2 in New England averages 50 receptions per year. So you're saying he's slightly below the quality of David Patten, Jabar Gaffney, old Troy Brown, and rookie Deion Branch. And Moss had 42/553/3 in 13 games last year, which would put him on pace for 52/680/3. So you apparently also think that Brady is about as good as Andrew Walter.
i don't think he will play a full season, and yes, Moss has declined dramatically. with that said i am bumping him 200 yards and 3 TDs from last year.i thought that was nice.
Why don't you think he's going to play a full season? What other players do you predict to play less than a full season? If you as a Raiders fan are saying that Moss has declined dramatically, why don't the players and coaches think so? I can give a reasonable explanation for why New England coaches would think that he was still very very good, but Oakland fans and coaches would think he's declined: He tried hard the first year, and was dogging it a little in Oakland in the second year, while dealing with minor injuries. Can you give me a reasonable explanation why Oakland fans and coaches would think he had declined, but New England players and coaches would think he was still very good?
We don't know how good the Patriots think he can/will be. We know they think he'll outperform whatever they would have picked up with their draft pick they gave up but IIRC, that was only a fourth rounder. When you look at it in that light that does not automatically mean they think he's still a stud. To me, that's a case of such POTENTIAL that the risk/reward is well worth the gamble.
It doesn't sound like you've been reading Belichick's, Peas', or the players' comments on Moss.
A lot of coaches say a lot of things about a lot of players this time of year. I'm not saying Moss has or hasn't looked bad but I don't place too much stock into preseason coachspeak.
 
talking fantasy points here.my line is right in the ballpark to be the #1 WR or just below the #1 WR for the last 3 years.you think Moss of old will magically come back and blow these stats out of the water.maybe there is a 5% chance of that happening. but i certainly wouldn't have it as my base projection.
I don't think he'll be Moss of old. I just don't think he'll be Moss of Oakland. I think we just completely disagree on what Moss has left in the tank. I think his numbers have been down because he's been injured, because he's been dogging it, because Oakland has sucked, and because the quarterbacking has been horrendous. Tom Brady is a slight upgrade over Andrew Walters. You think that his performance in Oakland and in his last, injured season in Minnesota is indicative of a long term decline. I explained my projections, and the basis for them, and how Stallworth and Welker would still be able to get theirs. I also explained that my projections did not account for the risks associated with him. I agree that there is risk, I just think you're overstating it. Maybe I'm understating it. Either way, good discussion. FWIW, I also think you're overrating Stallworth. Stallworth has never had 1000 yards, has missed more games than Moss earlier in his career, has been injured since he got here, and the team isn't talking him up anywhere near as much as they're talking about Moss. Yet you're predicting him to be the #1 receiver on the team. I don't see that at all. I see him as a guy they like, but I don't think he's their #1. He's a good but not great receiver who gives them a deep threat when healthy and who can catch some deep balls and some TDs. That's a great addition to the team, but if anyone was going to get lost in the shuffle, I think it would be him.
i agree.there is a lot of subjectivity to projections as to when to go with averages, and when to skew them up or down.i may very well be overstating the risk. obviously he won't be on any of my teams this year based on multiple WRs with similar ADPs who i think can be justified there. however i've been wrong before in projections and i'll be wrong again. Moss may be one of those times.
 
I can't believe bagger's Spreadsheet Flugomitor Calculations didn't forsee this. He must have still been tinkering with the Gromit 5000 Lufthausen draft theory.

 
Toss me in the boat of they spread it around too much.

I knew he wasnt done, just being stuck in oakland would make anyone play bad but jesus he came out the gate pretty well this season

 
Its possible the Patriots like to spread the ball around because they've never had an elite WR paired with Brady. Now they might have one so the past trends won't affect Moss. Actually I'll favor that line of thought.
In that offense theres no such thing as a stud receiver, everyone is equal (except Brady) in NE and if you think your special... your expendable.Expect Moss to blame his lack of production on targets and for his cries not to get answered. And if he doesn't complain its because their winning. He'll make for a decent WR but wont live upto his ADP.
:thumbup:
 
Four games, 4 100yd games, 7 TDs. Thats a washed up, bad attitude guy who'll never fit in 'cause they spread the ball around too much if I ever saw one. And he doesnt cry when he gets tackled on the one yard line.

 
Geez people, what do you want, a lollipop? So, Moss is still great and Brady is better off now.

Let it rest. They still have time to pass Montana to Rice.

The way CrapSPN spins it, they have already set more records in 4 weeks, than humanly possible!

I'm a Colts fan and am happy for Brady. He is a terrific leader and now gets his chance to shine in the regular season. I hope he gets the MVP. Honestly.

Now, please give this thread and others like it a rest and find an interesting topic to discuss.

TIA

 
Randy wasn't the problem in Oakland. He also wasn't the solution. We all know the coaching staff was terrible. Both Norv Turner and Al shell couldn't coach their way out of a wet paperbag. I just wanted to remind everybody who else was to blame for Randy Moss's fall from grace.

Randy's on field performance was hindered by ONE thing. Incompetence of Raider qbs kerry collins(2005), Marques(05-06)Tuiasosopo, Aaron Brooks(06), Andrew Walter(06). How could Randy Moss continue his possible HOF career with hacks throwing him the ball. They all lacked basic qb skills intelligence, leadership, field vision, guts, trust, arm accuracy, timing, respect. Everything Tom Brady is!

Simply put, not getting him the ball. Moss ran his routes(mostly downfield), created separation, waited patiently at first and was ignored. He didn't take this lightly. He lost interest and let himself and the team down, this is what he is most remembered for as an Oakland Raider. Quiting. Inexcusable. But there is some reasoning.

125 targets in 2005. 60rec 1005yards 16.8ypc 8tds Collins-Tuiasosopo

97 targets in 2006. 42rec 553yards 13.2ypc 3tds Brooks-Walter-Tuiasosopo

Last 3 seasons (02-03-04) in Minny target count was 186(106rec)-170(111rec)-83(49rec)*injured*. Culpepper was getting him the ball.Randy Ratio was in full effect. We all know how that ended. Point being, with the Raiders he was extremely underutilized and underappreciated which dominoed and magnified Moss's bad side. Many fans, media, analysts crucified him. He did deserve some of it...but not to the magnitude of being traded for a 4th rounder and change. On pace for 128 Targets and a butt-load of yardage and TDs. TD projection is a ridiculous 32 spot. Back to it...

Norv Turner, Art Shell, Kerry Collins, Brooks, Tuiasosopo, Andrew Walter deserves the brunt of the blame too. Where are they now.

Norv Turner - demoted to Niners OC - then promoted to San Diego's Head Coach...nice

Art Shell - in a divebar counting all the $$$ he stole from the raiders and their fans.

Collins - backing up VY in titanville.

Brooks - out of the league.

Tuisasosopo - backing up Ryan Leaf as a qbs coach in texas somewhere...haha. j/k he is backing up the back up wearing a Mean Green jets uni.

Placing Randy Moss in a offense with below average qbs was not his fault. That blame goes to Al Davis. Its like owning a Ferrari and putting a scion engine under the hood. It looks good until you get into an actual race. Al Davis seems to have learned his lesson. Investing 60+million into an franchise qb.

THE TRUTH ALWAYS COMES OUT IN THE END. Randy Moss is a great wr who will be in the Hall of Fame. Choo-Choo!!!

 
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Randy wasn't the problem in Oakland. He also wasn't the solution. We all know the coaching staff was terrible. Both Norv Turner and Al shell couldn't coach their way out of a wet paperbag. I just wanted to remind everybody who else was to blame for Randy Moss's fall from grace. Randy's on field performance was hindered by ONE thing. Incompetence of Raider qbs kerry collins(2005), Marques(05-06)Tuiasosopo, Aaron Brooks(06), Andrew Walter(06). How could Randy Moss continue his possible HOF career with hacks throwing him the ball. They all lacked basic qb skills intelligence, leadership, field vision, guts, trust, arm accuracy, timing, respect. Everything Tom Brady is!Simply put, not getting him the ball. Moss ran his routes(mostly downfield), created separation, waited patiently at first and was ignored. He didn't take this lightly. He lost interest and let himself and the team down, this is what he is most remembered for as an Oakland Raider. Quiting. Inexcusable. But there is some reasoning.125 targets in 2005. 60rec 1005yards 16.8ypc 8tds Collins-Tuiasosopo97 targets in 2006. 42rec 553yards 13.2ypc 3tds Brooks-Walter-TuiasosopoLast 3 seasons (02-03-04) in Minny target count was 186(106rec)-170(111rec)-83(49rec)*injured*. Culpepper was getting him the ball.Randy Ratio was in full effect. We all know how that ended. Point being, with the Raiders he was extremely underutilized and underappreciated which dominoed and magnified Moss's bad side. Many fans, media, analysts crucified him. He did deserve some of it...but not to the magnitude of being traded for a 4th rounder and change. Norv Turner, Art Shell, Kerry Collins, Brooks, Tuiasosopo, Andrew Walter deserves the brunt of the blame too. Where are they now. Norv Turner - demoted to Niners OC - then promoted to San Diego's Head Coach...niceArt Shell - counting all the $$$ he stole from the raiders and their fans.Collins - backing up VY in titanville. Brooks - out of the league.Tuisasosopo - backing up Ryan Leaf as a qbs coach in texas somewhere...haha. j/k he is backing up the back up in wearing Mean Green.Placing Randy Moss in a offense with below average qbs was not his fault. Its like owning a Ferrari and putting a scion engine under the hood. It looks good until you get into an actual race. THE TRUTH ALWAYS COMES OUT IN THE END. Randy Moss is a great wr who will be in the Hall of Fame.
I don't disagree with most of this, but whatever happened to great players making the players around them better? I also watched all those Raider games, and I can tell you that while Moss didn't have great QBs throwing him the ball, he did them no favors. I saw him drop MANY easy to catch passes from Andrew Walters last year. Many. Obviously being in NE, Moss has turned it around, but I don't think it is fair to put the blame on everyone else. His decline the past few years falls on his shoulders too, and personally, I would point out that the season isn't over. Injuries have slowed him down the past few years and I won't be surprised if he isn't injured again.
 
If by "spread offense" people meant "whomever is open." Then they are all still correct. Randy has been open alot and Brady is getting the open guy the ball. Simple.

 
Randy wasn't the problem in Oakland. He also wasn't the solution. We all know the coaching staff was terrible. Both Norv Turner and Al shell couldn't coach their way out of a wet paperbag. I just wanted to remind everybody who else was to blame for Randy Moss's fall from grace. Randy's on field performance was hindered by ONE thing. Incompetence of Raider qbs kerry collins(2005), Marques(05-06)Tuiasosopo, Aaron Brooks(06), Andrew Walter(06). How could Randy Moss continue his possible HOF career with hacks throwing him the ball. They all lacked basic qb skills intelligence, leadership, field vision, guts, trust, arm accuracy, timing, respect. Everything Tom Brady is!Simply put, not getting him the ball. Moss ran his routes(mostly downfield), created separation, waited patiently at first and was ignored. He didn't take this lightly. He lost interest and let himself and the team down, this is what he is most remembered for as an Oakland Raider. Quiting. Inexcusable. But there is some reasoning.125 targets in 2005. 60rec 1005yards 16.8ypc 8tds Collins-Tuiasosopo97 targets in 2006. 42rec 553yards 13.2ypc 3tds Brooks-Walter-TuiasosopoLast 3 seasons (02-03-04) in Minny target count was 186(106rec)-170(111rec)-83(49rec)*injured*. Culpepper was getting him the ball.Randy Ratio was in full effect. We all know how that ended. Point being, with the Raiders he was extremely underutilized and underappreciated which dominoed and magnified Moss's bad side. Many fans, media, analysts crucified him. He did deserve some of it...but not to the magnitude of being traded for a 4th rounder and change. Norv Turner, Art Shell, Kerry Collins, Brooks, Tuiasosopo, Andrew Walter deserves the brunt of the blame too. Where are they now. Norv Turner - demoted to Niners OC - then promoted to San Diego's Head Coach...niceArt Shell - counting all the $$$ he stole from the raiders and their fans.Collins - backing up VY in titanville. Brooks - out of the league.Tuisasosopo - backing up Ryan Leaf as a qbs coach in texas somewhere...haha. j/k he is backing up the back up in wearing Mean Green.Placing Randy Moss in a offense with below average qbs was not his fault. Its like owning a Ferrari and putting a scion engine under the hood. It looks good until you get into an actual race. THE TRUTH ALWAYS COMES OUT IN THE END. Randy Moss is a great wr who will be in the Hall of Fame.
I don't disagree with most of this, but whatever happened to great players making the players around them better? I also watched all those Raider games, and I can tell you that while Moss didn't have great QBs throwing him the ball, he did them no favors. I saw him drop MANY easy to catch passes from Andrew Walters last year. Many. Obviously being in NE, Moss has turned it around, but I don't think it is fair to put the blame on everyone else. His decline the past few years falls on his shoulders too, and personally, I would point out that the season isn't over. Injuries have slowed him down the past few years and I won't be surprised if he isn't injured again.
I said they all should share the blame. But we never hear about the other guys. Its always Randy Moss the malcontent. Analysts were comparing Moss's arrival to Corey Dillon. Bad attitudes clashing with the professionalism of New England. Corey Dillon was loyal to one franchise during probably the worst run any NFL franchise has ever seen spanning 7 years. Who else in this day and age would ever do such a thing. Closest thing to situation(not character) is Barry Sanders. And he flat out retired, instead of chasing a ring with a contender. And yes great leaders make others around them better like Brady, Magic, Bird, and Jordan. The Bird and Magic comparison is unfair, they had good ### teams behind them. Jordan is more fitting he was surrounded by role players. Randy Moss isn't a great leader. He is a great wide reciever. My favorite example of a player that was supposedly a great leader that fans and organizations looked for is JEFF GEORGE. He was always riding on his teams coat-tails. And it was never the other way around. His teams made him look like a franchise qb...including Moss in 1999 when George had 23 TDs(11 to moss accounting for 1400+yards)Moss did drop some passes...i will not deny that. A couple in the endzone too. Then he would have had 5 TDs instead of 3. If I were to put a percentage on blame. 20% coaches - Percentage would be higher, But the level of coaching was pretty low. IF it were Bill Parcells, BB, Dungy, etc then the number would be closer to 45-50%50%qb - they were ridiculous lousy30%randy - He tried...he really did...to pump up his boys. But they let him down and he gave up. Much like Kobe in 2006 Game 7 against the Suns. He looked into his teamates eyes and knew they didn't have it in them to make it through a challenge to the top of the mountain And he gave up at halftime, life Randy mid-season. Inexcusable. But the harsh reality of failure got to both of them.
 
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Randy wasn't the problem in Oakland. He also wasn't the solution. We all know the coaching staff was terrible. Both Norv Turner and Al shell couldn't coach their way out of a wet paperbag. I just wanted to remind everybody who else was to blame for Randy Moss's fall from grace. Randy's on field performance was hindered by ONE thing. Incompetence of Raider qbs kerry collins(2005), Marques(05-06)Tuiasosopo, Aaron Brooks(06), Andrew Walter(06). How could Randy Moss continue his possible HOF career with hacks throwing him the ball. They all lacked basic qb skills intelligence, leadership, field vision, guts, trust, arm accuracy, timing, respect. Everything Tom Brady is!Simply put, not getting him the ball. Moss ran his routes(mostly downfield), created separation, waited patiently at first and was ignored. He didn't take this lightly. He lost interest and let himself and the team down, this is what he is most remembered for as an Oakland Raider. Quiting. Inexcusable. But there is some reasoning.125 targets in 2005. 60rec 1005yards 16.8ypc 8tds Collins-Tuiasosopo97 targets in 2006. 42rec 553yards 13.2ypc 3tds Brooks-Walter-TuiasosopoLast 3 seasons (02-03-04) in Minny target count was 186(106rec)-170(111rec)-83(49rec)*injured*. Culpepper was getting him the ball.Randy Ratio was in full effect. We all know how that ended. Point being, with the Raiders he was extremely underutilized and underappreciated which dominoed and magnified Moss's bad side. Many fans, media, analysts crucified him. He did deserve some of it...but not to the magnitude of being traded for a 4th rounder and change. Norv Turner, Art Shell, Kerry Collins, Brooks, Tuiasosopo, Andrew Walter deserves the brunt of the blame too. Where are they now. Norv Turner - demoted to Niners OC - then promoted to San Diego's Head Coach...niceArt Shell - counting all the $$$ he stole from the raiders and their fans.Collins - backing up VY in titanville. Brooks - out of the league.Tuisasosopo - backing up Ryan Leaf as a qbs coach in texas somewhere...haha. j/k he is backing up the back up in wearing Mean Green.Placing Randy Moss in a offense with below average qbs was not his fault. Its like owning a Ferrari and putting a scion engine under the hood. It looks good until you get into an actual race. THE TRUTH ALWAYS COMES OUT IN THE END. Randy Moss is a great wr who will be in the Hall of Fame.
I don't disagree with most of this, but whatever happened to great players making the players around them better? I also watched all those Raider games, and I can tell you that while Moss didn't have great QBs throwing him the ball, he did them no favors. I saw him drop MANY easy to catch passes from Andrew Walters last year. Many. Obviously being in NE, Moss has turned it around, but I don't think it is fair to put the blame on everyone else. His decline the past few years falls on his shoulders too, and personally, I would point out that the season isn't over. Injuries have slowed him down the past few years and I won't be surprised if he isn't injured again.
I said they all should share the blame.And yes Great Leaders make others around them better. Randy Moss isn't a great leader. He is a great wide reciever. My favorite example of a player that was supposedly a great leader that fans and organization looked for is JEFF GEORGE. He was always riding on his teams coat-tails. And it was never the other way around. His teams made him look like a franchise qb...including Moss in 1999 when George had 23 TDs(11 to moss accounting for 1400+yards)
Jeff George led the league in passing yards, had 29 TDs and 9 INTs on a terrible Raiders team once.
 
Randy wasn't the problem in Oakland. He also wasn't the solution. We all know the coaching staff was terrible. Both Norv Turner and Al shell couldn't coach their way out of a wet paperbag. I just wanted to remind everybody who else was to blame for Randy Moss's fall from grace. Randy's on field performance was hindered by ONE thing. Incompetence of Raider qbs kerry collins(2005), Marques(05-06)Tuiasosopo, Aaron Brooks(06), Andrew Walter(06). How could Randy Moss continue his possible HOF career with hacks throwing him the ball. They all lacked basic qb skills intelligence, leadership, field vision, guts, trust, arm accuracy, timing, respect. Everything Tom Brady is!Simply put, not getting him the ball. Moss ran his routes(mostly downfield), created separation, waited patiently at first and was ignored. He didn't take this lightly. He lost interest and let himself and the team down, this is what he is most remembered for as an Oakland Raider. Quiting. Inexcusable. But there is some reasoning.125 targets in 2005. 60rec 1005yards 16.8ypc 8tds Collins-Tuiasosopo97 targets in 2006. 42rec 553yards 13.2ypc 3tds Brooks-Walter-TuiasosopoLast 3 seasons (02-03-04) in Minny target count was 186(106rec)-170(111rec)-83(49rec)*injured*. Culpepper was getting him the ball.Randy Ratio was in full effect. We all know how that ended. Point being, with the Raiders he was extremely underutilized and underappreciated which dominoed and magnified Moss's bad side. Many fans, media, analysts crucified him. He did deserve some of it...but not to the magnitude of being traded for a 4th rounder and change. Norv Turner, Art Shell, Kerry Collins, Brooks, Tuiasosopo, Andrew Walter deserves the brunt of the blame too. Where are they now. Norv Turner - demoted to Niners OC - then promoted to San Diego's Head Coach...niceArt Shell - counting all the $$$ he stole from the raiders and their fans.Collins - backing up VY in titanville. Brooks - out of the league.Tuisasosopo - backing up Ryan Leaf as a qbs coach in texas somewhere...haha. j/k he is backing up the back up in wearing Mean Green.Placing Randy Moss in a offense with below average qbs was not his fault. Its like owning a Ferrari and putting a scion engine under the hood. It looks good until you get into an actual race. THE TRUTH ALWAYS COMES OUT IN THE END. Randy Moss is a great wr who will be in the Hall of Fame.
I don't disagree with most of this, but whatever happened to great players making the players around them better? I also watched all those Raider games, and I can tell you that while Moss didn't have great QBs throwing him the ball, he did them no favors. I saw him drop MANY easy to catch passes from Andrew Walters last year. Many. Obviously being in NE, Moss has turned it around, but I don't think it is fair to put the blame on everyone else. His decline the past few years falls on his shoulders too, and personally, I would point out that the season isn't over. Injuries have slowed him down the past few years and I won't be surprised if he isn't injured again.
I said they all should share the blame.And yes Great Leaders make others around them better. Randy Moss isn't a great leader. He is a great wide reciever. My favorite example of a player that was supposedly a great leader that fans and organization looked for is JEFF GEORGE. He was always riding on his teams coat-tails. And it was never the other way around. His teams made him look like a franchise qb...including Moss in 1999 when George had 23 TDs(11 to moss accounting for 1400+yards)
Jeff George led the league in passing yards, had 29 TDs and 9 INTs on a terrible Raiders team once.
Yes he did with 3900+ passing yards and the Raiders sucked overall.Thats why i brought him up, the Raiders Front Office believed George was going to help the team win as a GREAT LEADER. Which he wasn't. He is a good/great QB, thats it. That played from behind alot like Collins in 2005 hence the large yardage total. He was with Indy, Atl, Raiders, Minny and Washington. His statline is pretty at times. But in your face you can't deny he wasn't a franchise qb. The other top 8 qbs were all real leaders in order. Favre, Marino,Bledsoe, Moon(debateable), Elway, Mitchell(not a leader but is ranked here), Aikman, Jeff Georges teammates:HOF wr Tim BrownRicky Dudley - large lanky goofy pass catching tight end that had a bad case of the dropseesJames Jett - prototypical Al Davis Sprinter wr. Kaufman - i called him baby barry sanders...i was young and naive. But he was the closest thing to barry sanders in the explosive department. Lots of 20+ runs behind Sanders...3rd place was waaaay behind in this cat. Jeff Georges record 4-12, following year with Donald Hollas and Wade Wilson in the mix. Raiders went 8-8, with the help of a much better defense and less potent offense.Enough of my hijack...
 
And yes great leaders make others around them better like Brady, Magic, Bird, and Jordan. The Bird and Magic comparison is unfair, they had good ### teams behind them. Jordan is more fitting he was surrounded by role players.
Total tangent here, but....Bird and Magic were twice the leaders that MJ was, and what you say simply isn't true. Scottie Pippen was a phenomenal player, and while they certainly had a bunch of role players, they were great at their jobs: Kerr(best shooter in NBA at the time), Rodman(best rebounder in NBA at time), HoGrant(very very good defender), etc. Oh and Phil Jackson of course.MJ never won a playoff series without Scottie or without Phil. Bird and Magic transformed their teams the second they walked into the NBA.
 
Where is the thread about Moss scoring 12 TDs or not... he needs like 1 TD every other game to make it.

Brady still doesn't _often_ throw a great deep ball, not that he can't throw a deep ball, it's just that it's a low percentage pass, and so the PAts simply will not call it regularly. However, Moss has proven to be much more than a deep ball WR.

Of note, Stallworth is now healthy, and is going to get looks. If you are looking for a #4, or BYE filler WR - he's a good one to get, as he will have a couple game where he blows up.

Really, whether the PAts spread the ball around or not, Moss is going to put up points. IN a PPR, Welker is great. And as a deep option at WR, Stallworth would be a good addition.

Right now the Pats are a great place to look for components for your fantasy passing game. Very impressive.

I've pretty much always hated the Pats as I grew up a Bills fan, and became a Colts fan during the Faulk/Harbaugh era. But this year I find myself with a new found respect for the Pats. I still want them to lose - but I respect them alot as they are a very good football organization (even if they cheat)

 

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