The Tea Party is back in business! (1 Viewer)

[Kasparov]

Obama pushed through his health care bill. The govt. shutdown is because of this bill. Hence, Obama is primarily responsible for the shutdown.

Good on those who stood their ground to defund this aspect of Obama's socialist agenda.

Dude, that was trollbait. You weren't suppose to respond.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Dissension in the GOP ranks. Some want to own the shutdown. Some want to deny they're to blame. And others, Fox News in particular, want to deny it's even a shutdown. And I'm sure some of their base will buy whichever of the three stories they're told.

Apparently 5 Digit Know Nothing, Joe McGee, Rambling Wreck, and Max Threshold buy into all 3 already.

I buy into the fact you're a no-nothing blowhard that ruins every thread you participate in because you post the same nonsense over and over and over.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Actually I do believe that, but it has nothing to do with the poll. The poll used the phrase "as a tactic to block the ACA"- obviously this refers to the Republicans, not to the Democrats, since the Dems are demanding an up or down vote on the budget.


You're welcome to believe whatever you want, but it's pretty clear that 72% of the American public blame the Republicans for the shutdown.

I didnt see the poll. Did it specify that 72 percent believed republicans are responsible or that 72 oppose the shutdown?

The poll actually asked that question specifically, and the answer wasn't 72%, but Tim doesn't really bother with details.

So despite the fact that I wrote exactly what the poll said, I don't bother with details?

What the poll said is that 72% of the American public doesn't want shutting down the government used as a tactic to block the ACA.

Now, my interpretation of this is that 72% believe Republicans are responsible. Unless you believe somehow that Democrats are attempting to block the ACA, I don't see how any other interpretation is reasonable. Both the source I quoted and Quinnipac, who held the poll, came to the exact same conclusion. But if you disagree, have at it.

The majority of Americans don't want the ACA either. Guess the government has stopped caring what the people want. By the people, against the people.

If Americans don't want the ACA they need to either pass a Constitutional Amendment outlawing the ACA or elect enough officials in the proper branches to repeal or reform it. Sorry, but we live in a representative republic, not a popular democracy.

Except that funding and implementing the "law" is part of Congress' job. In not funding it or debating how to fund it, regulate it, implement it, whatever you want to call it, the legislature is "reforming" it. This tactic isn't really anything new to our system.

Yes it is. Obamacare is already funded. The House shut down the government in order to defund or delay a program already in place and paid for. There have been shutdowns in the past, but this tactic has never been attempted before (from what I've read.)

And you would be wrong and mixing two different acts that are basically the same form of political power. I suggest you learn about the compromise of 1790. All we are doing today is furthering that practice. All the titled Compromises of congressional act in our history are basically the same. The end result of this particular squabble is the "shut down of the federal government" and I'll leave my comic comments on that aside. But the practicle application of the political power is no different.

 

[Scoresman]

Love The White House's attitude over this.

http://i.imgur.com/H55iNak.png

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Obama pushed through his health care bill. The govt. shutdown is because of this bill. Hence, Obama is primarily responsible for the shutdown.

Good on those who stood their ground to defund this aspect of Obama's socialist agenda.

Ah, yeah, no. Go away.

 

[timschochet]

Dissension in the GOP ranks. Some want to own the shutdown. Some want to deny they're to blame. And others, Fox News in particular, want to deny it's even a shutdown. And I'm sure some of their base will buy whichever of the three stories they're told.

Apparently 5 Digit Know Nothing, Joe McGee, Rambling Wreck, and Max Threshold buy into all 3 already.

I buy into the fact you're a no-nothing blowhard that ruins every thread you participate in because you post the same nonsense over and over and over.

It's know- nothing- as in, "The Steelers knew nothing when they drafted Jon Dwyer."

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Andrew Sullivan:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/01/the-nullification-party/]

Ive been trying to think of something original to say about the absurdity now transpiring in Washington, DC. Ive said roughly what I think in short; and I defer to Fallows for an important dose of reality against the predictably moronic coverage of the Washington Post.

But there is something more here. How does one party that has lost two presidential elections and a Supreme Court case as well as two Senate elections - think it has the right to shut down the entire government and destroy the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury to get its way on universal healthcare now? I see no quid pro quo even. Just pure blackmail, resting on understandable and predictable public concern whenever a major reform is enacted. But what has to be resisted is any idea that this is government or politics as usual. It is an attack on the governance and the constitutional order of the United States.

When ideologies become as calcified, as cocooned and as extremist as those galvanizing the GOP, the American system of government cannot work. But I fear this nullification of the last two elections is a deliberate attempt to ensure that the American system of government as we have known it cannot work. It cannot, must not work, in the mindset of these radicals, because they simply do not accept the legitimacy of a President and Congress of the opposing party. The GOP does not regard the president as merely wrong but as illegitimate. Not misguided illegitimate. This is not about ending Obamacare as such (although that is a preliminary scalp); it is about nullifying this presidency, the way the GOP attempted to nullify the last Democratic presidency by impeachment.

Except this time, of course, we cannot deny that race too is an added factor....

He's a moron anyway, but this is ridiculous. I am so ****ing tired of this refrain.

I understand that it's tiresome, as well as repellent, especially to true conservatives such as yourself.But to deny that there is an element of racism which exists within the Tea Party, especially in red states in the south, is to deny reality.

I fairly sick and tired of your posts about the Tea Party and everything they intimate, profess and distinguish. It's beyond tiresome. And yes, I will ignore the opinions of any single person who professes that this is racism. It's just a ridiculous crock of an attack angle that it's useless as any measure of a true problem. In effect, the charge simply cannot ever be taken seriously in this country anymore. For any reason. By anyone. I'm sure that's exactly what they were going for.

I respect you as much as any poster here. Truly I do. I think you're dead wrong about this.

I could be. I've posted this opinion on this board for going on 10 years I think. I've only been proven more right with the passage of time.

 

[Aerial Assault]

Dissension in the GOP ranks. Some want to own the shutdown. Some want to deny they're to blame. And others, Fox News in particular, want to deny it's even a shutdown. And I'm sure some of their base will buy whichever of the three stories they're told.

Apparently 5 Digit Know Nothing, Joe McGee, Rambling Wreck, and Max Threshold buy into all 3 already.

I buy into the fact you're a no-nothing blowhard that ruins every thread you participate in because you post the same nonsense over and over and over.

"no-nothing" Nice spelling ability. Your views are clearly deserving of considerable deference on this complex topic

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Love The White House's attitude over this.

http://i.imgur.com/H55iNak.png

It certainly is an interesting tactic in some respects. Who knows. I'm not convinced this episode will backfire with any great force against the GOP or the Dems. People are too fed up with Congress to begin with. And right now the Dems don't have that one stellar star like Obama to run for President that will just overrun whoever the GOP brings forth (I guess Hillary is the closest thing - but you want to talk about political division...... whoa). The gerrymandering stories here are dead on. It's harder and harder to remove an incumbant, so really, if the GOP member X isn't going to lose his seat for this, politically speaking, he is doing his job. Granted, the long term view is ****ing nuts but our representatives aren't exactly the better angels of our nature either.

 

[timschochet]

Andrew Sullivan:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/01/the-nullification-party/]

Ive been trying to think of something original to say about the absurdity now transpiring in Washington, DC. Ive said roughly what I think in short; and I defer to Fallows for an important dose of reality against the predictably moronic coverage of the Washington Post.

But there is something more here. How does one party that has lost two presidential elections and a Supreme Court case as well as two Senate elections - think it has the right to shut down the entire government and destroy the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury to get its way on universal healthcare now? I see no quid pro quo even. Just pure blackmail, resting on understandable and predictable public concern whenever a major reform is enacted. But what has to be resisted is any idea that this is government or politics as usual. It is an attack on the governance and the constitutional order of the United States.

When ideologies become as calcified, as cocooned and as extremist as those galvanizing the GOP, the American system of government cannot work. But I fear this nullification of the last two elections is a deliberate attempt to ensure that the American system of government as we have known it cannot work. It cannot, must not work, in the mindset of these radicals, because they simply do not accept the legitimacy of a President and Congress of the opposing party. The GOP does not regard the president as merely wrong but as illegitimate. Not misguided illegitimate. This is not about ending Obamacare as such (although that is a preliminary scalp); it is about nullifying this presidency, the way the GOP attempted to nullify the last Democratic presidency by impeachment.

Except this time, of course, we cannot deny that race too is an added factor....

He's a moron anyway, but this is ridiculous. I am so ****ing tired of this refrain.

I understand that it's tiresome, as well as repellent, especially to true conservatives such as yourself.But to deny that there is an element of racism which exists within the Tea Party, especially in red states in the south, is to deny reality.

I fairly sick and tired of your posts about the Tea Party and everything they intimate, profess and distinguish. It's beyond tiresome. And yes, I will ignore the opinions of any single person who professes that this is racism. It's just a ridiculous crock of an attack angle that it's useless as any measure of a true problem. In effect, the charge simply cannot ever be taken seriously in this country anymore. For any reason. By anyone. I'm sure that's exactly what they were going for.

I respect you as much as any poster here. Truly I do. I think you're dead wrong about this.

I could be. I've posted this opinion on this board for going on 10 years I think. I've only been proven more right with the passage of time.

The Tea Party hasn't been around for 10 years. Their specific case has very little to do, IMO, with your overall argument, which I don't exactly agree with but which I acknowledge has plenty of merit.

 

[badmojo1006]

Obama pushed through his health care bill. The govt. shutdown is because of this bill. Hence, Obama is primarily responsible for the shutdown.

Good on those who stood their ground to defund this aspect of Obama's socialist agenda.

WOOHOO!!!

JIM11 is BACK!!!

 

[Slapdash]

timschochet 196 The Commish 44 dparker713 39 Bottomfeeder Sports 33 Doctor Detroit 33 Oof

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Andrew Sullivan:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/01/the-nullification-party/]

Ive been trying to think of something original to say about the absurdity now transpiring in Washington, DC. Ive said roughly what I think in short; and I defer to Fallows for an important dose of reality against the predictably moronic coverage of the Washington Post.

But there is something more here. How does one party that has lost two presidential elections and a Supreme Court case as well as two Senate elections - think it has the right to shut down the entire government and destroy the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury to get its way on universal healthcare now? I see no quid pro quo even. Just pure blackmail, resting on understandable and predictable public concern whenever a major reform is enacted. But what has to be resisted is any idea that this is government or politics as usual. It is an attack on the governance and the constitutional order of the United States.

When ideologies become as calcified, as cocooned and as extremist as those galvanizing the GOP, the American system of government cannot work. But I fear this nullification of the last two elections is a deliberate attempt to ensure that the American system of government as we have known it cannot work. It cannot, must not work, in the mindset of these radicals, because they simply do not accept the legitimacy of a President and Congress of the opposing party. The GOP does not regard the president as merely wrong but as illegitimate. Not misguided illegitimate. This is not about ending Obamacare as such (although that is a preliminary scalp); it is about nullifying this presidency, the way the GOP attempted to nullify the last Democratic presidency by impeachment.

Except this time, of course, we cannot deny that race too is an added factor....

He's a moron anyway, but this is ridiculous. I am so ****ing tired of this refrain.

I understand that it's tiresome, as well as repellent, especially to true conservatives such as yourself.But to deny that there is an element of racism which exists within the Tea Party, especially in red states in the south, is to deny reality.

I fairly sick and tired of your posts about the Tea Party and everything they intimate, profess and distinguish. It's beyond tiresome. And yes, I will ignore the opinions of any single person who professes that this is racism. It's just a ridiculous crock of an attack angle that it's useless as any measure of a true problem. In effect, the charge simply cannot ever be taken seriously in this country anymore. For any reason. By anyone. I'm sure that's exactly what they were going for.

I respect you as much as any poster here. Truly I do. I think you're dead wrong about this.

I could be. I've posted this opinion on this board for going on 10 years I think. I've only been proven more right with the passage of time.

The Tea Party hasn't been around for 10 years. Their specific case has very little to do, IMO, with your overall argument, which I don't exactly agree with but which I acknowledge has plenty of merit.

I was referring to the "racism" topic. I really don't care and never really have about the Tea Party. They are no different than any powerswell within the polity. I think you give "them" way too much credit, and the media falls back into it because it's an easy boogyman target for them. The "Tea Party" isn't anything more than what you guys want it to be. Boehner is having problems with his party because he is a weak leader, the GOP has been fractured and getting worse for close to a decade and there has been a ground level fight within the party for the identiy of the party.

This really shouldn't surprise anyone. When we had long political discussions here years ago we would talk about how one of the parties was going to morph into something different. Many hoped it would lead to the creation of a third party that would take the best from both, but there was a pretty decent long standing belief that one of the parties would undergo some kind of fundamental change. Well, here it is. This is true change in American politics. It's ugly, painful and takes with it a ton of collateral damage. But the result of this is going to be a new GOP. It could be more to the right, more to the center, or there could be a blood letting of the newer voices in the party that tried to tackle the old dogs in this fight. But it will be different.

Our hope should be the idiots don't take the country down with them. The democrats already almost did that in 1861.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I'm gonna go ahead and predict this is resolved by Sunday.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I'm gonna go ahead and predict this is resolved by Sunday.

I don't know what anyone has to gain to solve it before the debt ceiling. What's that, two more weeks?

We will get the stories of federal employees not able to make their mortgage payment, or a soldier not getting a vest in some stupid supply chain mixup, maybe some kind of vandalism at a federal park where there should have been more security but I don't know if any of that scares anyone enough to do anything.

We already had one elderly veteran have an issue today because the VA housing we set up for him isn't available now becuase the office that has to help him process everything to move in isn't open, so if not for his family he would be I guess homeless right now. That stuff will be on the evening news in a day or two. Maybe this stirs up all the regular people in this country that complain about Washington but never really do anything to finally realize that elections - ALL ELECTIONS - have consequences, not just the President.

I doubt it. But maybe.

 

[tom22406]

I'm gonna go ahead and predict Tim is still posting in this thread on Sunday.

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[Scoresman]

There's not really anything you can say about this except '#### you, GOP.' They are completely abusing the role of congress to hurt millions of people in the US. There's no wiggle room here - it's pretty much that they are horrible, stupid, evil, and wrong. The only correct response is to write them off as irrational bad-faith actors who should really be restrained from having any sort of power in the future. Since we can't do that at this immediate time all we can say is '#### you.'


This is no longer about compromise with the opposition - the GOP is a hostile enemy that needs to be disbanded and destroyed by any legal means necessary. They are a completely anti-American organization, and should be regarded as such.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

There's not really anything you can say about this except '#### you, GOP.' They are completely abusing the role of congress to hurt millions of people in the US. There's no wiggle room here - it's pretty much that they are horrible, stupid, evil, and wrong. The only correct response is to write them off as irrational bad-faith actors who should really be restrained from having any sort of power in the future. Since we can't do that at this immediate time all we can say is '#### you.'

This is no longer about compromise with the opposition - the GOP is a hostile enemy that needs to be disbanded and destroyed by any legal means necessary. They are a completely anti-American organization, and should be regarded as such.

Ok.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I'm gonna go ahead and predict this is resolved by Sunday.

I don't know what anyone has to gain to solve it before the debt ceiling. What's that, two more weeks?

Because $200 million is coming out of the economy every day, because the closer we get to the debt ceiling the more markets will respond negatively and because no one actually wants to be in this shutdown (well except Ted Cruz maybe).

 

[5 digit know nothing]

I don't like the ACA. But suggesting that the majority of Americans don't like it is really inaccurate. Whenever the details of the ACA are presented, the public approves in rather large numbers. So again your comments are just spin, and wrong.

But whether or not the public approves of the ACA, they don't want the government shut down in order to stop it or change it. They've made that extremely clear in this poll.

In every poll conducted by eight major national pollsters this year, opposition to the Affordable Care Act outweighs support.1http://www.american.com/archive/2013/october/top-10-takeaways-public-opinion-on-the-affordable-care-act

From your link:

6. Repeal it? In whole or part, around four in ten. In nine Fox News surveys of registered voters since October 2010, between 27 percent and 39 percent have wanted to repeal the law entirely. When given a full set of options about whether to expand it, keep it as it is, or repeal it, other pollsters put the “repeal entirely” response at around 20 percent, with an additional 15 to 20 percent saying parts of it should be repealed. At the other end of the spectrum, as noted above, around 20 percent want to expand it.

Repeal entirely: 20%

Repeal portions of it: 15-20% (in addition to the 20% above)

---------

Expand it: 20%

and...

10: The uninsured: Losing ground under reform? In April 2010, 67 percent of those polled told Kaiser interviewers that the uninsured would be better off under the ACA. That response has dropped nearly 20 percentage points in the latest Kaiser poll, to 48 percent. As for the worse off responses, in April 2010, 15 percent said the uninsured would be worse off. That is now 26 percent, while 18 percent say there would be no difference. Sad but true: many people have real doubts the law will help those it was intended to help.

The fact that they did a bait and switch by removing the low-cost and free to just low-cost in a previous post of mine speaks volumes of what their true intentions were when they initially tried to gain public support.

 

[dparker713]

Actually I do believe that, but it has nothing to do with the poll. The poll used the phrase "as a tactic to block the ACA"- obviously this refers to the Republicans, not to the Democrats, since the Dems are demanding an up or down vote on the budget.


You're welcome to believe whatever you want, but it's pretty clear that 72% of the American public blame the Republicans for the shutdown.

I didnt see the poll. Did it specify that 72 percent believed republicans are responsible or that 72 oppose the shutdown?

The poll actually asked that question specifically, and the answer wasn't 72%, but Tim doesn't really bother with details.

So despite the fact that I wrote exactly what the poll said, I don't bother with details?

What the poll said is that 72% of the American public doesn't want shutting down the government used as a tactic to block the ACA.

Now, my interpretation of this is that 72% believe Republicans are responsible. Unless you believe somehow that Democrats are attempting to block the ACA, I don't see how any other interpretation is reasonable. Both the source I quoted and Quinnipac, who held the poll, came to the exact same conclusion. But if you disagree, have at it.

The majority of Americans don't want the ACA either. Guess the government has stopped caring what the people want. By the people, against the people.

If Americans don't want the ACA they need to either pass a Constitutional Amendment outlawing the ACA or elect enough officials in the proper branches to repeal or reform it. Sorry, but we live in a representative republic, not a popular democracy.

Except that funding and implementing the "law" is part of Congress' job. In not funding it or debating how to fund it, regulate it, implement it, whatever you want to call it, the legislature is "reforming" it. This tactic isn't really anything new to our system.

They don't have the votes to pass any reform. And its not like they're offering up something else in exchange for concessions on the ACA. And you're right, its not new. Its old, like Calhoun old.

 

[bagger]

Ron Paul makes a good point, why is this being forced on the American public? It is pretty B.S., why can't we opt out of it?http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?play=1&video=3000203730

Exactly

You can't opt out of Social Security either. You know why? Cause its the law of the land and unless you're able to get a majority in both houses plus the President or a supermajority in both houses.

Just curious which other laws you believe you should be able to opt out of?

this.I would love to opt out of social security and invest myself into wheat pennies, Facebook iPos, and fan duel contests, but after doing all of that and I am broke the government would still need to provide a safety net.

Definitely could use some improving on that system as well but nobody should be shutting the govt down over it.

 

[Scoresman]

I have a horrifying feeling that the supposed backlash that democrats expect the GOP to experience from holding the country hostage over providing health care is not a thing that will happen. Naturally it's a horrible measuring stick to look at social media and the internet for the current opinions and trends of a political base, but it certainly seems that there is an awful lot of support for the GOP's actions. Maybe if we continue riding in the GOP mobile and fly off that debt cliff and things truly go to #### will they wake up, but even then I'm confident they'll just think it was all obama's fault. You've got the entire redneck South and Texas who will continue to vote GOP despite being ####ed over repeatedly by them.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Andrew Sullivan:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/01/the-nullification-party/]

Ive been trying to think of something original to say about the absurdity now transpiring in Washington, DC. Ive said roughly what I think in short; and I defer to Fallows for an important dose of reality against the predictably moronic coverage of the Washington Post.

But there is something more here. How does one party that has lost two presidential elections and a Supreme Court case as well as two Senate elections - think it has the right to shut down the entire government and destroy the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury to get its way on universal healthcare now? I see no quid pro quo even. Just pure blackmail, resting on understandable and predictable public concern whenever a major reform is enacted. But what has to be resisted is any idea that this is government or politics as usual. It is an attack on the governance and the constitutional order of the United States.

When ideologies become as calcified, as cocooned and as extremist as those galvanizing the GOP, the American system of government cannot work. But I fear this nullification of the last two elections is a deliberate attempt to ensure that the American system of government as we have known it cannot work. It cannot, must not work, in the mindset of these radicals, because they simply do not accept the legitimacy of a President and Congress of the opposing party. The GOP does not regard the president as merely wrong but as illegitimate. Not misguided illegitimate. This is not about ending Obamacare as such (although that is a preliminary scalp); it is about nullifying this presidency, the way the GOP attempted to nullify the last Democratic presidency by impeachment.

Except this time, of course, we cannot deny that race too is an added factor....

He's a moron anyway, but this is ridiculous. I am so ****ing tired of this refrain.

I understand that it's tiresome, as well as repellent, especially to true conservatives such as yourself.But to deny that there is an element of racism which exists within the Tea Party, especially in red states in the south, is to deny reality.

I fairly sick and tired of your posts about the Tea Party and everything they intimate, profess and distinguish. It's beyond tiresome. And yes, I will ignore the opinions of any single person who professes that this is racism. It's just a ridiculous crock of an attack angle that it's useless as any measure of a true problem. In effect, the charge simply cannot ever be taken seriously in this country anymore. For any reason. By anyone. I'm sure that's exactly what they were going for.

I respect you as much as any poster here. Truly I do. I think you're dead wrong about this.

I could be. I've posted this opinion on this board for going on 10 years I think. I've only been proven more right with the passage of time.

The Tea Party hasn't been around for 10 years. Their specific case has very little to do, IMO, with your overall argument, which I don't exactly agree with but which I acknowledge has plenty of merit.

I was referring to the "racism" topic. I really don't care and never really have about the Tea Party. They are no different than any powerswell within the polity. I think you give "them" way too much credit, and the media falls back into it because it's an easy boogyman target for them. The "Tea Party" isn't anything more than what you guys want it to be. Boehner is having problems with his party because he is a weak leader, the GOP has been fractured and getting worse for close to a decade and there has been a ground level fight within the party for the identiy of the party.

This really shouldn't surprise anyone. When we had long political discussions here years ago we would talk about how one of the parties was going to morph into something different. Many hoped it would lead to the creation of a third party that would take the best from both, but there was a pretty decent long standing belief that one of the parties would undergo some kind of fundamental change. Well, here it is. This is true change in American politics. It's ugly, painful and takes with it a ton of collateral damage. But the result of this is going to be a new GOP. It could be more to the right, more to the center, or there could be a blood letting of the newer voices in the party that tried to tackle the old dogs in this fight. But it will be different.

Our hope should be the idiots don't take the country down with them. The democrats already almost did that in 1861.

Yankee23Fan

I live in the south - it exists down here, it is not in your face but it exists. If you doubt me ask Joe he live in Tennessee.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I'm gonna go ahead and predict this is resolved by Sunday.

I don't know what anyone has to gain to solve it before the debt ceiling. What's that, two more weeks?

We will get the stories of federal employees not able to make their mortgage payment, or a soldier not getting a vest in some stupid supply chain mixup, maybe some kind of vandalism at a federal park where there should have been more security but I don't know if any of that scares anyone enough to do anything.

We already had one elderly veteran have an issue today because the VA housing we set up for him isn't available now becuase the office that has to help him process everything to move in isn't open, so if not for his family he would be I guess homeless right now. That stuff will be on the evening news in a day or two. Maybe this stirs up all the regular people in this country that complain about Washington but never really do anything to finally realize that elections - ALL ELECTIONS - have consequences, not just the President.

I doubt it. But maybe.

Two weeks sounds about right.

 

[17seconds]

Here's a fun bit of trivia: The last US President to propose a universal health care system was Richard Nixon. He'd had an older brother who died of tuberculosis, and the costs of his medical care drained his family. He had to work as a janitor to support himself in high school. Nixon managed to keep up his grades anyway and got a scholarship to Harvard - which he had to turn down, because it didn't include a stipend for room and board. His parents couldn't afford to help because of the money they were spending on his poor brother.

As shady as he was, Nixon understood the miseries of being poor and unable to afford health care. Think about that for a minute: Richard ####### Nixon, a guy who's name became shorthand for political corruption, was more compassionate and tuned in with the needs of the American people than Republicans are today. I cannot fathom how anyone could support the republican party of today.

So, just since I've been reading, people that aren't in lock step with you, tim, Andrew Sullivan and President Obama and his party are racists who lack compassion and to add tim's usual refrian - progressive from the the 5th dimension where progressives and extremists ban together to march through cities eating the livers of all people they encounter, laughing the entire time and mocking good hard working reasonable people that host message board drafts more than most people work in a given work week.

You know why people get to that point, right? There's no logical reason why the GOP would have such a hard-on for destroying everything Obama does. I've never seen anything like it in my lifetime. It dwarfs their hatred of Clinton. Democrats haven't taken such measures so you can't say the entire political process has broken down on both sides.

At the same time we've seen this rise of an older, white, minority-hating, gun loving, pure christian demographic taking refuge in the Tea Party who think Obama is an illegitimate president and causing the complete destruction of our country. What else could it be? Pure insanity we just didn't see before?

 

[timschochet]

I think Obama and the Democrats deserve some criticism here. They didn't start this, but I don't approve of their inaction at this point. They seem to be primarily interested in damaging the Republican brand. What they SHOULD be interested in doing, IMO, is damaging the Tea Party, which is in the best interests of this country. But the only way to do that is to build up the establishment wing of the GOP, like John Boehner, Peter King, John McCain, etc. Give them the power to defeat the extremists.

Here's what I would do if I were Obama: I would agree to a conference. I would offer removing the medical device tax, and I would agree to remove the exemption for Congressional employees. I would then offer to allow Keystone to go forward. In exchange, I would ask for immediate up and down votes on the budget and the debt ceiling, and a promise from Boehner that in the future these would not be held up for the sake of ideological demands.

 

[17seconds]

Adverse ReactionOctober 1, 2013
By Bill Maher

According to a recent Georgetown University Health Policy Institute study, before Medicare Part D -- the prescription drug benefit -- launched in 2005, only 21 percent of the public liked it. It was less popular than Obamacare. Its approval rating today? 90 percent.

People don't like change -- especially old people. Eight years ago, they were scared to death. They didn't know how much it would cost. They were confused about the process of enrolling -- only about 20 percent of seniors said they would. Well, 53 percent did, it was less expensive than the Congressional Budget Office predicted and, after some hiccups, everybody liked it.

In a recent NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll, 70 percent of Americans said they don't understand Obamacare. But 44 percent are sure they hate it. How can you be so sure you hate something you don't understand? Why do pollsters even bother asking people questions about a program they admit being ignorant about? "What do you understand about Obamacare?" "Nothing." "Okay, please opine on medical loss ratio." Stop asking until people have actually experienced it.

Yes, Obamacare is complicated. But what public policy isn't? Even Medicare -- a single payer system -- isn't that simple: not all doctors take it, there are co-pay and coverage questions, etc.

David Frum said on our show that it's just too complicated to take on all at once. Back in April, President Obama said that 85 to 90 percent of Americans don't have to do anything -- they just have a bunch of new protections, like no lifetime caps on their coverage.

I thought Americans were the "can do" people. We can't do 15 percent? No, no, let's not exert ourselves.

 

[badmojo1006]

I think Obama and the Democrats deserve some criticism here. They didn't start this, but I don't approve of their inaction at this point. They seem to be primarily interested in damaging the Republican brand. What they SHOULD be interested in doing, IMO, is damaging the Tea Party, which is in the best interests of this country. But the only way to do that is to build up the establishment wing of the GOP, like John Boehner, Peter King, John McCain, etc. Give them the power to defeat the extremists.

Here's what I would do if I were Obama: I would agree to a conference. I would offer removing the medical device tax, and I would agree to remove the exemption for Congressional employees. I would then offer to allow Keystone to go forward. In exchange, I would ask for immediate up and down votes on the budget and the debt ceiling, and a promise from Boehner that in the future these would not be held up for the sake of ideological demands.

That is not going to happen. If Obama caves, the GOP will continue this tactic.

 

[Fennis]

timschochet 196 The Commish 44 dparker713 39 Bottomfeeder Sports 33 Doctor Detroit 33

Oof

Fennis 11

 

[Scoresman]

Obama cannot cave. A "Not negotiating with terrorists" stance may be hyperbole, but it needs to be the go-to policy here.

 

[Henry Ford]

I just don't understand the mindset on this. "What we're about to do is so horrible, they'll never let us do it!"

How is that re-electable?

 

[RCon]

OpEd on Fox News site (yeah, I know, but there's only so many sites that come up nicely on a mobile device) suggests a winning hand for the GOP here is (paraphrasing) to agree to end the shutdown and raise the debt ceiling in exchange for one and only one concession. Specifically, the revocation of all waivers for Obamacare. That is, Obamacare moves forward and everyone is subject to it immediately.

Not a bad idea, actually. It would sell nicely on the news; "If Obamacare is so great, and you want it so bad, you got it. Let's just make sure everyone is included. No cronies, no exceptions." It would be a complete disaster, especially as the companies, unions, and other groups that have already received waivers wouldn't be remotely prepared for them to be revoked immediately.

 

[Henry Ford]

OpEd on Fox News site (yeah, I know, but there's only so many sites that come up nicely on a mobile device) suggests a winning hand for the GOP here is (paraphrasing) to agree to end the shutdown and raise the debt ceiling in exchange for one and only one concession. Specifically, the revocation of all waivers for Obamacare. That is, Obamacare moves forward and everyone is subject to it immediately.

Not a bad idea, actually. It would sell nicely on the news; "If Obamacare is so great, and you want it so bad, you got it. Let's just make sure everyone is included. No cronies, no exceptions." It would be a complete disaster, especially as the companies, unions, and other groups that have already received waivers wouldn't be remotely prepared for them to be revoked immediately.

Why would anyone concede to change a law in exchange for funding the government?

 

[Clifford]

Obama pushed through his health care bill. The govt. shutdown is because of this bill. Hence, Obama is primarily responsible for the shutdown.

Republican logic 101

 

[humpback]

I have a horrifying feeling that the supposed backlash that democrats expect the GOP to experience from holding the country hostage over providing health care is not a thing that will happen. Naturally it's a horrible measuring stick to look at social media and the internet for the current opinions and trends of a political base, but it certainly seems that there is an awful lot of support for the GOP's actions. Maybe if we continue riding in the GOP mobile and fly off that debt cliff and things truly go to #### will they wake up, but even then I'm confident they'll just think it was all obama's fault. You've got the entire redneck South and Texas who will continue to vote GOP despite being ####ed over repeatedly by them.

You should probably get off of social media and take your meds.

 

[Slapdash]

Andrew Sullivan:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/01/the-nullification-party/]

Ive been trying to think of something original to say about the absurdity now transpiring in Washington, DC. Ive said roughly what I think in short; and I defer to Fallows for an important dose of reality against the predictably moronic coverage of the Washington Post.

But there is something more here. How does one party that has lost two presidential elections and a Supreme Court case as well as two Senate elections - think it has the right to shut down the entire government and destroy the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury to get its way on universal healthcare now? I see no quid pro quo even. Just pure blackmail, resting on understandable and predictable public concern whenever a major reform is enacted. But what has to be resisted is any idea that this is government or politics as usual. It is an attack on the governance and the constitutional order of the United States.

When ideologies become as calcified, as cocooned and as extremist as those galvanizing the GOP, the American system of government cannot work. But I fear this nullification of the last two elections is a deliberate attempt to ensure that the American system of government as we have known it cannot work. It cannot, must not work, in the mindset of these radicals, because they simply do not accept the legitimacy of a President and Congress of the opposing party. The GOP does not regard the president as merely wrong but as illegitimate. Not misguided illegitimate. This is not about ending Obamacare as such (although that is a preliminary scalp); it is about nullifying this presidency, the way the GOP attempted to nullify the last Democratic presidency by impeachment.

Except this time, of course, we cannot deny that race too is an added factor....

He's a moron anyway, but this is ridiculous. I am so ****ing tired of this refrain.

I understand that it's tiresome, as well as repellent, especially to true conservatives such as yourself.But to deny that there is an element of racism which exists within the Tea Party, especially in red states in the south, is to deny reality.

I fairly sick and tired of your posts about the Tea Party and everything they intimate, profess and distinguish. It's beyond tiresome. And yes, I will ignore the opinions of any single person who professes that this is racism. It's just a ridiculous crock of an attack angle that it's useless as any measure of a true problem. In effect, the charge simply cannot ever be taken seriously in this country anymore. For any reason. By anyone. I'm sure that's exactly what they were going for.

I respect you as much as any poster here. Truly I do. I think you're dead wrong about this.

I could be. I've posted this opinion on this board for going on 10 years I think. I've only been proven more right with the passage of time.

The Tea Party hasn't been around for 10 years. Their specific case has very little to do, IMO, with your overall argument, which I don't exactly agree with but which I acknowledge has plenty of merit.

I was referring to the "racism" topic. I really don't care and never really have about the Tea Party. They are no different than any powerswell within the polity. I think you give "them" way too much credit, and the media falls back into it because it's an easy boogyman target for them. The "Tea Party" isn't anything more than what you guys want it to be. Boehner is having problems with his party because he is a weak leader, the GOP has been fractured and getting worse for close to a decade and there has been a ground level fight within the party for the identiy of the party.

This really shouldn't surprise anyone. When we had long political discussions here years ago we would talk about how one of the parties was going to morph into something different. Many hoped it would lead to the creation of a third party that would take the best from both, but there was a pretty decent long standing belief that one of the parties would undergo some kind of fundamental change. Well, here it is. This is true change in American politics. It's ugly, painful and takes with it a ton of collateral damage. But the result of this is going to be a new GOP. It could be more to the right, more to the center, or there could be a blood letting of the newer voices in the party that tried to tackle the old dogs in this fight. But it will be different.

Our hope should be the idiots don't take the country down with them. The democrats already almost did that in 1861.

Yankee23Fan

I live in the south - it exists down here, it is not in your face but it exists. If you doubt me ask Joe he live in Tennessee.

Yep. You can't pretend this isn't a motivator for some.

 

[RCon]

OpEd on Fox News site (yeah, I know, but there's only so many sites that come up nicely on a mobile device) suggests a winning hand for the GOP here is (paraphrasing) to agree to end the shutdown and raise the debt ceiling in exchange for one and only one concession. Specifically, the revocation of all waivers for Obamacare. That is, Obamacare moves forward and everyone is subject to it immediately.

Not a bad idea, actually. It would sell nicely on the news; "If Obamacare is so great, and you want it so bad, you got it. Let's just make sure everyone is included. No cronies, no exceptions." It would be a complete disaster, especially as the companies, unions, and other groups that have already received waivers wouldn't be remotely prepared for them to be revoked immediately.

Why would anyone concede to change a law in exchange for funding the government?

If presented properly, seems like it'd be tough for Obama/Dems to say no to a request that "everyone be treated equally". Basically, I'm saying it's a winning soundbite.

 

[TPW]

There's not really anything you can say about this except '#### you, GOP.' They are completely abusing the role of congress to hurt millions of people in the US. There's no wiggle room here - it's pretty much that they are horrible, stupid, evil, and wrong. The only correct response is to write them off as irrational bad-faith actors who should really be restrained from having any sort of power in the future. Since we can't do that at this immediate time all we can say is '#### you.'

This is no longer about compromise with the opposition - the GOP is a hostile enemy that needs to be disbanded and destroyed by any legal means necessary. They are a completely anti-American organization, and should be regarded as such.

Interesting. That's pretty much exactly how I feel about Democrats, Progessives, Greens, etc. They've undertaken a nearly century long experiment in transforming the United States and have nearly spent us into oblivion while casually disregarding the Consitution when it suits their purposes.

Bring it on.

 

[Slapdash]

Here's what I would do if I were Obama: I would agree to a conference. I would offer removing the medical device tax, and I would agree to remove the exemption for Congressional employees. I would then offer to allow Keystone to go forward. In exchange, I would ask for immediate up and down votes on the budget and the debt ceiling, and a promise from Boehner that in the future these would not be held up for the sake of ideological demands.

So you are saying the GOP should get Obama to cave and increase the deficit?

 

[Fennis]

Here's what I would do if I were Obama: I would agree to a conference. I would offer removing the medical device tax, and I would agree to remove the exemption for Congressional employees. I would then offer to allow Keystone to go forward. In exchange, I would ask for immediate up and down votes on the budget and the debt ceiling, and a promise from Boehner that in the future these would not be held up for the sake of ideological demands.

So you are saying the GOP should get Obama to cave and increase the deficit?

The deficit is a secondary issue for everyone.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

You two actually have more in common than you'll ever know. Do I hear wedding bells?

 

[Sammy3469]

Here's what I would do if I were Obama: I would agree to a conference. I would offer removing the medical device tax, and I would agree to remove the exemption for Congressional employees. I would then offer to allow Keystone to go forward. In exchange, I would ask for immediate up and down votes on the budget and the debt ceiling, and a promise from Boehner that in the future these would not be held up for the sake of ideological demands.

So you are saying the GOP should get Obama to cave and increase the deficit?

Yes, yes he is, but what did you expect.

 

[timschochet]

Here's what I would do if I were Obama: I would agree to a conference. I would offer removing the medical device tax, and I would agree to remove the exemption for Congressional employees. I would then offer to allow Keystone to go forward. In exchange, I would ask for immediate up and down votes on the budget and the debt ceiling, and a promise from Boehner that in the future these would not be held up for the sake of ideological demands.

So you are saying the GOP should get Obama to cave and increase the deficit?

I don't think this is "caving" on Obama's part. The medical device tax is highly unpopular even among Democrats. The exemption for Congress wasn't in the original plan.

 

[TPW]

You two actually have more in common than you'll ever know. Do I hear wedding bells?

Nah. That's the cavalry bugle.

http://www.secondcavalry.org/2US_9VA/Bugle%20Calls/to-arms.wav

 

[omahawildcat25]

We need to shut down Obama permanantly

 

[Thunderlips]

We need to shut down Obama permanantly

Gotta wait until 2016.

 

[omahawildcat25]

We need to shut down Obama permanantly

Gotta wait until 2016.

Who says?

 

[pantagrapher]

OpEd on Fox News site (yeah, I know, but there's only so many sites that come up nicely on a mobile device) suggests a winning hand for the GOP here is (paraphrasing) to agree to end the shutdown and raise the debt ceiling in exchange for one and only one concession. Specifically, the revocation of all waivers for Obamacare. That is, Obamacare moves forward and everyone is subject to it immediately.

Not a bad idea, actually. It would sell nicely on the news; "If Obamacare is so great, and you want it so bad, you got it. Let's just make sure everyone is included. No cronies, no exceptions." It would be a complete disaster, especially as the companies, unions, and other groups that have already received waivers wouldn't be remotely prepared for them to be revoked immediately.

Love how the best thing for the GOP is disaster for everyone.

 

[Thunderlips]

We need to shut down Obama permanantly

Gotta wait until 2016.

Who says?

Me