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The Tea Party is back in business! (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
If the Tea Party cared about our generation, they could go ahead and propose to reign in SS and Medicare starting now.
dparker713
Footballguy
The Senate passed a budget in March. Could have started these negotiations then but the House Republicans refused to conference. Republicans decided to frame these discussions around the debt ceiling limit and are waiting till a week or so is left to present an initial list of demands. So if you want to ##### about the timeframe in this instance you should blame the Republicans.
jonessed
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
Did you even see that list? That's a 500 page bill easy. You don't think having a time limit of under a week makes negotiating such a bill a tad bit difficult?
jonessed
Footballguy
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think saying "I refuse to negotiate on this issue" makes it a tad bit more difficult to negotiate than the timing, which could easily be overcome (like it has been several times).
This whole debacle is over something that they're going to have to address again in months, and we'll hear the same bs "there's just not enough time" yet again. We heard it years ago- how many years do you think they need to address it?
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dparker713
Footballguy
The Democrats stance is immaterial to this line of inquiry. This is a hypothetical. Part of the hypothetical is people actually willing to negotiate. You don't get to change the construct of the hypothetical to suit your answer. HTH.
timschochet
Footballguy
I have a feeling it's more likely that 98% of legislators have never even heard of it.
Okay, in your hypothetical fantasy land, they would extend the deadline as part of the negotiations, just as they have in reality several times. HTH.
timschochet
Footballguy
THIS is why, you knucklehead!
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/08/opinion/nocera-why-the-debt-ceiling-matters.html?_r=0'
The word we keep hearing is “catastrophe.”
“A U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe, Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall,” screams the headline in Bloomberg Businessweek. “A default would be unprecedented and has the potential to be catastrophic,” says a Treasury Department report issued on Thursday — two weeks before the government is expected to begin running out of cash.
But what does “catastrophic” actually mean in this context? In the summer of 2011, when Republicans refused to raise the debt ceiling unless President Obama caved to their extortionist demands, the same word was bandied about. It scared the political class enough that they kicked the can and avoided a default.
This time around, the need to raise the debt ceiling doesn’t seem to be generating nearly the same concern. Indeed, Tea Party Republicans seem to be almost rooting for the government to default, as if that would somehow bring about the smaller government they so yearn for.
But this is incredibly wrongheaded. A failure to raise the debt ceiling, should it come to that, would likely inflict a different kind of pain than sequestration or even a shutdown of the federal government. It won’t make the government smaller. But it does have the potential to diminish the value of one of America’s greatest assets — the backing of its debt — while throwing the world economy into chaos.
The first point worth making is that the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which declares that “the validity of the public debt of the United States . . . shall not be questioned,” was added precisely to avoid what is happening now: a faction of Congress using the debt ceiling as a bargaining chip. That basic truth, as Fortune’s Roger Parloff noted in a recent blog post, “ought to weigh very heavily in the minds — and on the consciences — of the House Republican faction that is now unambiguously violating its letter and spirit.”
The second point worth making is that U.S. government debt is the only risk-free asset in the world. That debt undergirds the entire world financial system — precisely because the whole world has such faith in it. There is always demand for U.S. government debt. Almost every other asset you can think of is in some way measured against it. A default would destabilize the market for Treasuries. And that, in turn, would likely destabilize every other asset.
The stock market would fall. Interest rates would rise — meaning, for instance, mortgages would become more expensive just as the housing market is starting to revive. Treasuries themselves would likely have to pay higher interest to investors, which would create a rather sad irony: a default would exacerbate the country’s long-term debt (the very problem the Republicans claim to care about).
Let’s move to the havoc a destabilized Treasury debt would have on the banking system. “The plumbing of the global financial system depends on Treasuries,” says Karen Petrou, a banking expert at Federal Financial Analytics. Remember what happened to Lehman Brothers? As the market lost faith in the company’s ability to meet its obligations, Lehman lost access to the “repo” market, which is the way banks are funded on a short-term basis. Treasuries make up a great deal of the collateral in the repo market. If a default were to cause the repo market to freeze, the entire banking system would find itself in crisis. Meanwhile — more shades of Lehman Brothers — the ratings agencies would likely downgrade Treasuries, forcing money market funds to start dumping government debt.
Painful choices would have to be made. Right now, the Treasury Department says it does not have the authority to pick and choose which creditors to pay. But, in the event of a default, it is hard to imagine that the government wouldn’t make some tough decisions about who should get paid in the short term — and who would have to wait. And, though this would infuriate millions of Americans, bondholders in China would likely get their money ahead of, say, Social Security recipients.
“From a purely cost-benefit analysis,” says Mark Zandi of Moody’s Analytics, “not paying bondholders would wind up costing the U.S. much more than not paying Social Security recipients” — because if bondholders lost faith in Treasuries, it would cost the government billions more in interest payments each year.
During the 2011 debt-ceiling crisis, consumer confidence dropped by 22 percent. When consumer confidence falls, people are less willing to spend and businesses are less willing to hire. That’s how recessions — or depressions — begin, and that may be the most important consequence of all.
For as long as anyone can remember, the ability of the United States government to pay its bills on time has given the rest of world tremendous confidence. At the same time, to have the one asset everyone in the world trusts has given America great advantages.
Why on earth would we ever risk that? Why?
Jim11
Footballguy
Evidently, you didn't read the article that I linked to. It does not endorse defaulting...in fact it states that there will be no default. Instead the govt. will be forced to spend within the budget limits & perhaps cut some things.
Like maybe next year, they won't send 10 people from my office on a boonedogle trip to Sacramento just to use up some funds. Imagine that.
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Who cares what size it is?. Democrats have shown that they are more than willing to pass legislation without even reading it. Can't they just vote "yes" on any negotions/bills like they did for Obamacare (which they didn't read)?
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Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
This thread really makes me wonder if monarchy wasnt so bad after all.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Depends on which monarch you end up with. Our brand of Democracy pretty much guarantees mediocrity in government at this point. With Monarchy you could get horrible, could get great, could also get mediocre - put your money down and ride the snake. Anyway, not to worry, we're either heading into straight Plutocracy (Monarchy's tricky cousin) or a patch of anarchy in the near future.
Jim11
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Stupid people still get to vote though.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
By all means let's destroy the world economy at worst or further embolden an Imperial presidency at best because ofa campaign speech 5 years ago. Hell let's hold out for a huge deal because they did it with Missouri 180 years ago to too. Great way to run things. God I hate this GOP right now.
commisholio
Come out with your pants down!
I miss non-insane Republicans. I really do.
Jim11
Footballguy
Guess you missed the point. If Obama thought that it was so bad to raise the debt ceiling then, why does he want to raise it even more now?
Why not cut spending? This may shock you, but the govt. wastes a lot of $$$$$.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
They're still around - several posting in this thread even. At some point they have to get fed up with the radicals, don't they?
timschochet
Footballguy
In order for us to believe that you're not one of the crazy ones, you need to put aside whatever you feel about the Dems and Obama and spend your time only attacking the Tea Party until this is over. So long as you indulge in this "I blame both sides" crap, you're either hiding the fact that you admire the Tea Party, or you're giving them cover because you can't tolerate the fact that the liberals might be right in this instance (which could be even worse.)
The Commish
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
Ted Cruz would be better off fighting to raise the SS age than the crap he's pulling over ACA right now.
dparker713
Footballguy
How can anyone claim that slashing the Defense and Education budgets in half and eliminating the HUD and NASA wouldn't cause gigantic problems? Leaving aside the legality of his solution on how to spend incoming revenue and the turmoil this is sure to cause in the markets, how is abruptly putting a million plus people out of work not a catastrophe.
And btw, the majority of US debt is held by US citizens in some way shape or form. His solution would cripple SS, private pension funds and mutual funds. Sounds Grrrrreat!
ETA: One more thing. How does his solution work on day one? We've got no cash reserves. The Treasury has already been moving things around to work around the current cap. Day one we have no money, but we do have expenses. Are we going the Wimpy route? We'll glad pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today?
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dparker713
Footballguy
Why does no person demanding the budget be balanced ever advocate raising taxes? Its a pretty crucial part of the math.
timschochet
Footballguy
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/politicsnow/la-pn-government-shutdown-congress-polling-20131007,0,5535514.story
WASHINGTON – The standoff over the government shutdown continues to damage the public’s opinion of congressional Republicans, two new surveys indicate, a finding likely to deepen concern among GOP leaders about the impact the stalemate is having on their party.
A third newly released survey shows that overall approval of Congress has fallen to nearly a record low.
Disapproval of the way congressional Republicans are “handling negotiations over the federal budget” has jumped to 70%, a Washington Post-ABC News poll shows. The poll, taken Wednesday through Sunday, found 24% approving of the congressional GOP.
The ratings have worsened significantly over the last week. A Post-ABC poll taken just before the shutdown began showed 63% of Americans disapproving of the GOP position.
The reverse is true for President Obama. While approval of his handling of the budget negotiations remains tepid, it has improved since last week, the poll showed. In the most recent survey, Americans narrowly disapproved of Obama’s performance on the budget negotiations, 51% to 45%. That marked a small improvement from the previous week’s 50% to 41%.
Many senior Republican leaders warned before the standoff began that it would probably hurt the party with voters, and those concerns have only deepened since government agencies began to close last week. The latest polls are likely to reinforce those worries.
But while the public as a whole may not like the stalemate in Washington, representatives on both sides are largely following the desires of their constituents, a Pew Research Center survey indicates. About three-quarters of self-identified Democrats say that Republicans should yield on their demands, while a similar percentage of self-identified Republicans say that President Obama should be the one to give in.
The improvement in Obama’s standing comes largely because he has consolidated support among his fellow Democrats. Among those who identified themselves as Democrats in the Post-ABC poll, approval of Obama’s handling of the budget rose to 77%, up from 71% a week earlier. In both cases, 21% disapproved. Obama’s approval rating went up 8 points among self-described liberals and 7 points among moderates.
By contrast, congressional Republicans get divided support from those who identify themselves as Republicans. The 52% of self-identified Republicans who said they approved of the way Republicans in Congress were handling the budget was down from 56% a week earlier.
The relatively poor ratings that Republicans get from within their own party reflect the deep divisions among Republican voters about which way the party should turn – whether it should seek a compromise with Obama and congressional Democrats or hold firm on insisting that Obama agree to major concessions in return for a budget agreement.
The Pew poll underscored those divisions. Among Republicans who view themselves as tea party supporters, 72% said it would be “unacceptable” if the “only way to end the shutdown” would be for Republicans to drop their demands for major changes in Obama’s healthcare law. By contrast, 39% of Republicans who do not see themselves as tea party supporters took that view.
The Pew survey also showed that Republicans receive more blame from the public than the Obama administration for the continued stalemate.
The difference is relatively small, with 38% saying Republicans are more to blame and 30% putting the onus on the administration. But the gap has widened since the shutdown began. Two weeks ago, before the shutdown started, Americans were almost evenly divided, with 39% saying in a Pew survey that they would mostly blame the GOP and 36% saying they would mostly blame Obama.
Meantime, the latest Gallup poll finds that approval of Congress has dropped to 11% -- just one percentage point above the worst level recorded, which occurred last year.
Gallup’s economic confidence index has dropped 14 points since late September, erasing all the gains made since the end of 2011.
WASHINGTON – The standoff over the government shutdown continues to damage the public’s opinion of congressional Republicans, two new surveys indicate, a finding likely to deepen concern among GOP leaders about the impact the stalemate is having on their party.
A third newly released survey shows that overall approval of Congress has fallen to nearly a record low.
Disapproval of the way congressional Republicans are “handling negotiations over the federal budget” has jumped to 70%, a Washington Post-ABC News poll shows. The poll, taken Wednesday through Sunday, found 24% approving of the congressional GOP.
The ratings have worsened significantly over the last week. A Post-ABC poll taken just before the shutdown began showed 63% of Americans disapproving of the GOP position.
The reverse is true for President Obama. While approval of his handling of the budget negotiations remains tepid, it has improved since last week, the poll showed. In the most recent survey, Americans narrowly disapproved of Obama’s performance on the budget negotiations, 51% to 45%. That marked a small improvement from the previous week’s 50% to 41%.
Many senior Republican leaders warned before the standoff began that it would probably hurt the party with voters, and those concerns have only deepened since government agencies began to close last week. The latest polls are likely to reinforce those worries.
But while the public as a whole may not like the stalemate in Washington, representatives on both sides are largely following the desires of their constituents, a Pew Research Center survey indicates. About three-quarters of self-identified Democrats say that Republicans should yield on their demands, while a similar percentage of self-identified Republicans say that President Obama should be the one to give in.
The improvement in Obama’s standing comes largely because he has consolidated support among his fellow Democrats. Among those who identified themselves as Democrats in the Post-ABC poll, approval of Obama’s handling of the budget rose to 77%, up from 71% a week earlier. In both cases, 21% disapproved. Obama’s approval rating went up 8 points among self-described liberals and 7 points among moderates.
By contrast, congressional Republicans get divided support from those who identify themselves as Republicans. The 52% of self-identified Republicans who said they approved of the way Republicans in Congress were handling the budget was down from 56% a week earlier.
The relatively poor ratings that Republicans get from within their own party reflect the deep divisions among Republican voters about which way the party should turn – whether it should seek a compromise with Obama and congressional Democrats or hold firm on insisting that Obama agree to major concessions in return for a budget agreement.
The Pew poll underscored those divisions. Among Republicans who view themselves as tea party supporters, 72% said it would be “unacceptable” if the “only way to end the shutdown” would be for Republicans to drop their demands for major changes in Obama’s healthcare law. By contrast, 39% of Republicans who do not see themselves as tea party supporters took that view.
The Pew survey also showed that Republicans receive more blame from the public than the Obama administration for the continued stalemate.
The difference is relatively small, with 38% saying Republicans are more to blame and 30% putting the onus on the administration. But the gap has widened since the shutdown began. Two weeks ago, before the shutdown started, Americans were almost evenly divided, with 39% saying in a Pew survey that they would mostly blame the GOP and 36% saying they would mostly blame Obama.
Meantime, the latest Gallup poll finds that approval of Congress has dropped to 11% -- just one percentage point above the worst level recorded, which occurred last year.
Gallup’s economic confidence index has dropped 14 points since late September, erasing all the gains made since the end of 2011.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
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dparker713
Footballguy
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Don't tease me!TPW said:
timschochet
Footballguy
You'd think those overall poll numbers would scare the Republicans (70% of the entire country hates what they doing here.) But on the other hand, 75% of Republicans like it.
dparker713
Footballguy
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
You forget that you gave them cover through all of 2012. You are Tea Party-lite, Timsquishole.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
If you support that, so be it. Just don't cry when the vote swings back in the house and the funding isn't there.
Even a super majority means 40% of the population had no say. Believe it or not, that is still a lot of people.
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