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The Tea Party is back in business! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
I hope Thursday isn't as bad as Y2K was.
snogger
Footballguy
These meetings last until sometime Thursday morning..The Stock market takes a nose dive in the morning, then like magic a bill will materialize at noon...
Oh and just before the bill shows up "out of thin air", those in the market swoop in and make a killing buying low and the Market has it's biggest jump in years.
shader
Footballguy
/thread
The Stock market takes a nose dive in the morning, then like magic a bill will materialize at noon...
Oh and just before the bill shows up "out of thin air", those in the market swoop in and make a killing buying low and the Market has it's biggest jump in years.
The Commish
Footballguy
Why's it hard to enforce? We can track every other kind of transaction out there, why not a sale on the internet?
Yeah, it's not like the NSA isn't tracking every single byte that travels the internet already.
The Commish
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
jamny
Footballguy
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Mark Davis
Footballguy
How are you going to apply it to the states and localities? Don't forget the local governments want their share. In the bills proposed so far you'd have to comply with all that. It's not as simple as just saying it's going to be a flat rate, those governments won't go for it.How hard is it to comply to a nationwide flat rate?
Scoresman
Footballguy
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
He has the opposite side of the coin though. Normal GOPers hate themselves now because of the Tea Party lunatics and worry they will get slaughtered in general/statewide elsctions by democrats, this guy's supporters hate the rational GOPers who are willing to compromise and wants them to feel it in the primaries from uber conservatives.timschochet said:
G
Guest
Guest
A percentage of something is greater than a percentage of 0.How are you going to apply it to the states and localities? Don't forget the local governments want their share. In the bills proposed so far you'd have to comply with all that. It's not as simple as just saying it's going to be a flat rate, those governments won't go for it.How hard is it to comply to a nationwide flat rate?
Mark Davis
Footballguy
If that were the case, ok. I don't see them going for it though. If it passes it looks like the retailers would be on the hook for figuring out the hodgepodge of rates in every state and municipality.A percentage of something is greater than a percentage of 0.How are you going to apply it to the states and localities? Don't forget the local governments want their share. In the bills proposed so far you'd have to comply with all that. It's not as simple as just saying it's going to be a flat rate, those governments won't go for it.How hard is it to comply to a nationwide flat rate?
G
Guest
Guest
I agree that would be a nightmare.If that were the case, ok. I don't see them going for it though. If it passes it looks like the retailers would be on the hook for figuring out the hodgepodge of rates in every state and municipality.A percentage of something is greater than a percentage of 0.How are you going to apply it to the states and localities? Don't forget the local governments want their share. In the bills proposed so far you'd have to comply with all that. It's not as simple as just saying it's going to be a flat rate, those governments won't go for it.How hard is it to comply to a nationwide flat rate?
Mark Davis
Footballguy
Just as a quick example, I know a broker based in Tennessee. The state did a sales tax audit on his company. Obviously he sells all his inventory on the internet and had never collected it. They took the stance that since he was located in Tennessee that he was liable for Tennessee sales tax and billed him for 3 years in arrears and is forcing him to charge sales tax to anyone if they don't have a tax exempt certificate on file. He sent that info out to everyone on the broker exchange. All it did was make me remove his listings from my retail website. I don't have the capability within my current system to calculate tax by the inventory holder's location. To fix the issue I simply removed all of his inventory from my websites. This has killed his business because most other brokers have done the same to him. It's not a personal thing, it's just from compliance and now from a competitive pricing standpoint you can no longer afford to sell his inventory. A broker in Wisconsin had the same issue a couple years back.I agree that would be a nightmare.If that were the case, ok. I don't see them going for it though. If it passes it looks like the retailers would be on the hook for figuring out the hodgepodge of rates in every state and municipality.A percentage of something is greater than a percentage of 0.How are you going to apply it to the states and localities? Don't forget the local governments want their share. In the bills proposed so far you'd have to comply with all that. It's not as simple as just saying it's going to be a flat rate, those governments won't go for it.How hard is it to comply to a nationwide flat rate?
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Mark Davis
Footballguy
It would have to be tied in with all these independent websites. I'm not an IT guy, I have no idea how cumbersome that is or isn't. I know I couldn't do it. I pay a company for my website design and functionality as it is.Matthias said:
If Republicans refuse to fight and listen to their base then they deserve to go the way of the dinosaur. Why would anybody vote for "Democrat light" when they could have the real thing? What does the socially liberal, spendthrift insitutional wing of the party bring to the table that people can't already get from across the aisle?
Mark Davis
Footballguy
How are the socially more liberal side of the party spendthrift? Let's recall the George W. Bush administration. Socially conservative but spent like nobody could believe. I haven't seen one of the more socially liberal Republicans advocate spending in the way that occurred. From what I've seen, the extreme right social first side of the party has no fiscal responsibility at all. These are the people risking the financial future of this country and I don't see how that is conservative in any way.
Dr Oadi
Footballguy
racket...treat em all like Mussolini!
The Stock market takes a nose dive in the morning, then like magic a bill will materialize at noon...
Oh and just before the bill shows up "out of thin air", those in the market swoop in and make a killing buying low and the Market has it's biggest jump in years.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Did Michelle Bachman really introduce a resolution to impeach the President for the shutdown or is that an Onion article?
ETA: Because she is that crazy...
ETA: Because she is that crazy...
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Lutherman2112
Footballguy
The ranking member of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works, Sen. David Vitter (R-La.), has posted an article on the committee's site called "The Top Ten Reasons The Government Shutdown Isn't All Bad."
10. Approximately 15,000 EPA employees are furloughed, making it less likely fake CIA agents at EPA will be ripping off the taxpayer
Last month, John C. Beale, a former EPA senior official in the Office of Air & Radiation of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), pled guilty to criminal charges for stealing nearly $900,000 from the Agency. For years, Beale claimed to work for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to shirk his EPA work responsibilities. U.S. Sen. David Vitter (R-La.), top Republican on the Environment and Public Works Committee (EPW), has also been actively working on an investigation of Beale and the Agency's policies and processes that facilitated Mr. Beale's fraud. Vitter wants EPA can take to reform its management policies and has called for an EPW committee hearing. Click here to read more.
9. EPA doesn't have the manpower to raid Alaska mines with armed guards
In August, EPA agents conducted an armed raid against miners in Chicken, Alaska, following up on an alleged claim of violations of the Clean Water Act (CWA). One miner said of the raid, "Imagine coming up to your diggings, only to see agents swarming over it like ants, wearing full body armor....and all packing side arms. How would you have felt? You would be wondering, ‘My God, what have I done now?'" Click here to read more.
8. Fewer bureaucrats at the EPA makes it less likely that they'll make up science on new regulations
Vitter and EPW Republicans have pointed out the flawed science behind a number of EPA rules and regulations on the social cost of carbon, methanol, power plants, hydraulic fracturing, and the list goes on and on. Click here to read more.
7. Former Secretary of Interior Ken Salazar is worried about oil production in the Gulf of Mexico
"The continued shutdown of the federal government will ultimately affect the government approval of activities in the Gulf of Mexico. [Given] the contribution the Gulf is making to the energy future of the United States . . . it's not the kind of rollback we ought to have." - Former Interior Secretary Salazar, October 1, 2013
Former Secretary of the Department of Interior (Interior) Ken Salazar was responsible for essentially shutting down all oil and gas production in the Gulf of Mexico when he implemented a moratorium on production in 2010. The Inspector General of the Interior Department during Salazar's tenure is still under investigation for her role in turning a blind eye to the fudging of a National Academy of Engineers report related to the moratorium. The halt in production had a negative impact on energy production for several years. Salazar was also responsible for throwing out the previous 5-year plan for energy production and leasing on the outer continental shelf, which eliminated vast resources that should be available to the nation's energy producers. Limiting Gulf of Mexico access, as well as access on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts perpetuated the Administration's attempts to shut down offshore energy production.
Read more about Salazar's incredibly ironic statement here.
6. World War II veterans have stormed the Normandy beaches again. (Sadly, they had to, in order to gain access to their own memorial)
President Obama ordered that all national parks, monuments, and museums be shut down, even national parks that are fully funded by non-profit organizations and receive zero federal dollars for their operations. He also had barricades placed around the National World War II Memorial in Washington, D.C., keeping out the visiting US World War II veteran forces and other visitors who could not get access to the memorial that commemorates the veterans' sacrifices and commitment. On October 8, 2013, the National Mall was opened for a rally to promote the Gang of 8 immigration legislation, which has been called an amnesty bill for illegal immigrants.
5. EPA doesn't have the manpower to unilaterally expand its jurisdiction under the Clean Water Act
EPA has perpetually taken steps to expand its own jurisdiction under the Clean Water Act. The now-withdrawn guidance document and new rule are symptoms of an agency unceasingly trying to broaden its reach and frustrate commerce. Vitter and EPW Republicans have been demanding a whole lot more transparency and to unequivocally withdraw the controversial draft guidance. Read more here.
4. U.S. Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) still finds time on the Senate floor to make inaccurate claims about green jobs. (This is a positive, right . . . NOT!)
"There are more jobs now in green energy than in the entire oil and gas industry." - Senator Whitehouse, October 10, 2013
A recent study by the American Petroleum Institute found that as of 2011 the oil and gas industry supports 9.8 million full-time and part-time jobs, while the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that in 2011 there were only 3.4 million "green" industry supported jobs. Estimates from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory show that the federal government spent approximately $9 billion on green jobs, while only creating 910 new, long-term jobs. This means American taxpayers spent $9.8 million per job. A more thorough analysis of the dubious nature of such claims can be found here.
3. Far-left environmentalists prove themselves hypocrites again: They criticize continuing oil and gas production on federal lands during the shutdown but issue no call to halt wind turbines
"It's disappointing that the public is shut out from national parks but oil companies get to drill in them." - Alex Taurel, Deputy Legislative Director at the League of Conservation Voters
Vitter has repeatedly pointed out the hypocrisy of the Administration pursuing cases involving oil and gas producers, and not wind energy producers. The Administration has taken legal action against oil and gas producers whose operations have resulted in the death of birds. On the other hand, they have failed to pursue action against, and even offered waivers to, the companies who operate wind turbines that kill birds, including bald eagles, on leased federal lands. It was recently reported that "wind turbines kill over 600,000 birds annually."
2. President Obama has a temporary excuse for his stonewalling on FOIA and other transparency demands of the Administration
Currently over 90% of EPA's employees are furloughed. EPW Republicans have focused on the lack of transparency within the Obama Administration, particularly at the EPA, but also at the Treasury Department who have refused to release their involvement in developing a carbon tax.
And the number 1 reason the government shutdown isn't all bad...
1. Richard Windsor has been furloughed-for good!
"Richard Windsor," the now infamous email alias for former EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson, has been touted by the Administration as an example of standard procedure for high level employees. As it would turn out, from 2009 to 2012, EPA awarded ethics certificates to the employee "Richard Windsor" who was also described as a top student in the Agency's ethical-behavior class. Click here to read more.
10. Approximately 15,000 EPA employees are furloughed, making it less likely fake CIA agents at EPA will be ripping off the taxpayer
Last month, John C. Beale, a former EPA senior official in the Office of Air & Radiation of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), pled guilty to criminal charges for stealing nearly $900,000 from the Agency. For years, Beale claimed to work for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to shirk his EPA work responsibilities. U.S. Sen. David Vitter (R-La.), top Republican on the Environment and Public Works Committee (EPW), has also been actively working on an investigation of Beale and the Agency's policies and processes that facilitated Mr. Beale's fraud. Vitter wants EPA can take to reform its management policies and has called for an EPW committee hearing. Click here to read more.
9. EPA doesn't have the manpower to raid Alaska mines with armed guards
In August, EPA agents conducted an armed raid against miners in Chicken, Alaska, following up on an alleged claim of violations of the Clean Water Act (CWA). One miner said of the raid, "Imagine coming up to your diggings, only to see agents swarming over it like ants, wearing full body armor....and all packing side arms. How would you have felt? You would be wondering, ‘My God, what have I done now?'" Click here to read more.
8. Fewer bureaucrats at the EPA makes it less likely that they'll make up science on new regulations
Vitter and EPW Republicans have pointed out the flawed science behind a number of EPA rules and regulations on the social cost of carbon, methanol, power plants, hydraulic fracturing, and the list goes on and on. Click here to read more.
7. Former Secretary of Interior Ken Salazar is worried about oil production in the Gulf of Mexico
"The continued shutdown of the federal government will ultimately affect the government approval of activities in the Gulf of Mexico. [Given] the contribution the Gulf is making to the energy future of the United States . . . it's not the kind of rollback we ought to have." - Former Interior Secretary Salazar, October 1, 2013
Former Secretary of the Department of Interior (Interior) Ken Salazar was responsible for essentially shutting down all oil and gas production in the Gulf of Mexico when he implemented a moratorium on production in 2010. The Inspector General of the Interior Department during Salazar's tenure is still under investigation for her role in turning a blind eye to the fudging of a National Academy of Engineers report related to the moratorium. The halt in production had a negative impact on energy production for several years. Salazar was also responsible for throwing out the previous 5-year plan for energy production and leasing on the outer continental shelf, which eliminated vast resources that should be available to the nation's energy producers. Limiting Gulf of Mexico access, as well as access on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts perpetuated the Administration's attempts to shut down offshore energy production.
Read more about Salazar's incredibly ironic statement here.
6. World War II veterans have stormed the Normandy beaches again. (Sadly, they had to, in order to gain access to their own memorial)
President Obama ordered that all national parks, monuments, and museums be shut down, even national parks that are fully funded by non-profit organizations and receive zero federal dollars for their operations. He also had barricades placed around the National World War II Memorial in Washington, D.C., keeping out the visiting US World War II veteran forces and other visitors who could not get access to the memorial that commemorates the veterans' sacrifices and commitment. On October 8, 2013, the National Mall was opened for a rally to promote the Gang of 8 immigration legislation, which has been called an amnesty bill for illegal immigrants.
5. EPA doesn't have the manpower to unilaterally expand its jurisdiction under the Clean Water Act
EPA has perpetually taken steps to expand its own jurisdiction under the Clean Water Act. The now-withdrawn guidance document and new rule are symptoms of an agency unceasingly trying to broaden its reach and frustrate commerce. Vitter and EPW Republicans have been demanding a whole lot more transparency and to unequivocally withdraw the controversial draft guidance. Read more here.
4. U.S. Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) still finds time on the Senate floor to make inaccurate claims about green jobs. (This is a positive, right . . . NOT!)
"There are more jobs now in green energy than in the entire oil and gas industry." - Senator Whitehouse, October 10, 2013
A recent study by the American Petroleum Institute found that as of 2011 the oil and gas industry supports 9.8 million full-time and part-time jobs, while the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that in 2011 there were only 3.4 million "green" industry supported jobs. Estimates from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory show that the federal government spent approximately $9 billion on green jobs, while only creating 910 new, long-term jobs. This means American taxpayers spent $9.8 million per job. A more thorough analysis of the dubious nature of such claims can be found here.
3. Far-left environmentalists prove themselves hypocrites again: They criticize continuing oil and gas production on federal lands during the shutdown but issue no call to halt wind turbines
"It's disappointing that the public is shut out from national parks but oil companies get to drill in them." - Alex Taurel, Deputy Legislative Director at the League of Conservation Voters
Vitter has repeatedly pointed out the hypocrisy of the Administration pursuing cases involving oil and gas producers, and not wind energy producers. The Administration has taken legal action against oil and gas producers whose operations have resulted in the death of birds. On the other hand, they have failed to pursue action against, and even offered waivers to, the companies who operate wind turbines that kill birds, including bald eagles, on leased federal lands. It was recently reported that "wind turbines kill over 600,000 birds annually."
2. President Obama has a temporary excuse for his stonewalling on FOIA and other transparency demands of the Administration
Currently over 90% of EPA's employees are furloughed. EPW Republicans have focused on the lack of transparency within the Obama Administration, particularly at the EPA, but also at the Treasury Department who have refused to release their involvement in developing a carbon tax.
And the number 1 reason the government shutdown isn't all bad...
1. Richard Windsor has been furloughed-for good!
"Richard Windsor," the now infamous email alias for former EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson, has been touted by the Administration as an example of standard procedure for high level employees. As it would turn out, from 2009 to 2012, EPA awarded ethics certificates to the employee "Richard Windsor" who was also described as a top student in the Agency's ethical-behavior class. Click here to read more.
The financial future of this country is already written in stone. The current debate is simply whether or not we should go over the big waterfall beside us and try to pick up the pieces or continue on to the massive, unsurvivable one downriver.
I would argue with you that any administration which would pass Medicare Part D such as Bush did is not nearly as conservative as you claim. Projected expenditures for the next ten years for that program alone are +/- 800 billion dollars. You're not going to catch me defending W's spending habits. He shares a lot of blame as to where we are as a nation today.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
ffldrew
Footballguy
Pretty rich of Vitter to mention this....without one iota of consideration of the reason for the moratorium - the BP oil spill that nearly destroyed Louisiana fisheries and shrimp/oyster harvesting for good. Bet he'd be complaining that the EPA failed to stop the BP spill if they didn't make BP pay not nearly enough for their negligence.
timschochet
Footballguy
So here's where we apparently are: the House is working on passing a bill. It may or may not be voted upon tonight. Boehner may decide not to have it voted upon because he can't get enough votes. Or it may get the 217 required. Or he might have it voted on and it will fail. We won't know until tonight.
However, even if the House bill does pass, it doesn't matter because the Senate won't approve it. In fact, I'm a little confused as to why they're even bothering with this charade. If it's to please the Tea Party, to say, "see, we did everything we could", why wouldn't Boehner come up with a bill that was much more conservative? The Tea Party doesn't like this new bill because it doesn't defund Obamacare- that's why Boehner's having so much trouble getting it passed. And he must know that even if it does pass, the Senate will just reject it? So why ar we wasting time?
The prevailing thought seems to be that McConnell and Reid have already come to an agreement, and are just keeping it under tabs as they wait for Boehner to do what he has to do. I have heard this theory suggested in several places. But assuming it's true, they are cutting things really close to the bone by waiting until tomorrow. And what assurance do we have that the House will approve the Senate plan?
This will PROBABLY all end up fine. But it worries me that there is this group in the House of Representatives, the Tea Party, which actually wants us to go over the debt limit without raising it. How can we be 100% positive that they won't get their way, with less than 2 days left?
However, even if the House bill does pass, it doesn't matter because the Senate won't approve it. In fact, I'm a little confused as to why they're even bothering with this charade. If it's to please the Tea Party, to say, "see, we did everything we could", why wouldn't Boehner come up with a bill that was much more conservative? The Tea Party doesn't like this new bill because it doesn't defund Obamacare- that's why Boehner's having so much trouble getting it passed. And he must know that even if it does pass, the Senate will just reject it? So why ar we wasting time?
The prevailing thought seems to be that McConnell and Reid have already come to an agreement, and are just keeping it under tabs as they wait for Boehner to do what he has to do. I have heard this theory suggested in several places. But assuming it's true, they are cutting things really close to the bone by waiting until tomorrow. And what assurance do we have that the House will approve the Senate plan?
This will PROBABLY all end up fine. But it worries me that there is this group in the House of Representatives, the Tea Party, which actually wants us to go over the debt limit without raising it. How can we be 100% positive that they won't get their way, with less than 2 days left?
Joe T
Footballguy
Link?
Ah forget it, I know you heard this on some obscure radio show that you can't remember right now.
timschochet
Footballguy
Here:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/politicsnow/la-pn-tea-party-debt-limit-pew-poll-20131015,0,6541763.story
and here:
http://www.ibtimes.com/majority-tea-partiers-not-concerned-about-breaching-debt-limit-poll-finds-1427068
then there's this:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/poll-huge-majority-of-tea-partiers-think-debt-limit-is-no-big-deal
Joe T
Footballguy
Stop believing everything you read about "where things are at this minute". It's just a show.
timschochet
Footballguy
Nope. It's only wrong in your (as usual) convoluted opinion. If the majority of Tea Partiers are telling us that (a) going over the debt limit is "no big deal" and (b) Republicans should "hold the line" on the debt ceiling and the government shutdown until Obamacare has been defunded, then that equals wanting to go over the debt limit. You can attempt to use Clintonesque language to "prove" that they never said they actually wanted it, but that's foolish. They do want it, and in the event that it happens, they will be blamed for the consequences.
timschochet
Footballguy
I used the word "apparently", because I'm not sure I believe all of it, but it happens to be what we know. I'm not quite as confident as you and other people are that there is an automatic back room deal in play here. I tend to doubt conspiracy theories. If a deal is done in the last second, then that usually means it was actually agreed to in the last second.
Joe T
Footballguy
Update: The majority of Democrats in the House of Representatives believe every member of Congress should be fired.
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/10/20902490-nbcwsj-poll-nearly-two-thirds-say-not-raising-debt-ceiling-would-be-a-serious-problem
I know the poll I linked to has nothing to do with my statement of fact, but let's face it that's what they meant.
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/10/20902490-nbcwsj-poll-nearly-two-thirds-say-not-raising-debt-ceiling-would-be-a-serious-problem
I know the poll I linked to has nothing to do with my statement of fact, but let's face it that's what they meant.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well I hope that's so. But thus far what those representatives say doesn't show a significant distinction between the two groups on this particular subject. For instance, Rep. Paul Broun of Georgia stated that Obamacare is a bigger threat to the US economy than going over the debt ceiling, and given the choice he would choose the latter. Rep. Yoho of Florida stated that going over the debt ceiling would be good for both the world and the US economy, and Michele Bachmann echoed this, stating it would force us to finally balance the budget. If there are Tea Party congressmen with opposing viewpoints on this, I can't find them.Matthias said:
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No, you don't know anything, I don't know anything, and neither does Politico or the other sites you're getting this stuff from. Like I said earlier, those sites need to write something, so they just make some stuff up, throw it against the wall, and hope something sticks.
Now, if you want to change "happens to be what we know" to "happens to be what some jackass reporter on Politico randomly speculated most recently", then I'm with you.
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Joe T
Footballguy
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Agreed. It's probably just a way for the Tea Party types to wash their hands of the compromise (evil!) deal that ends up getting passed.Matthias said:
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Heritage Action put out a statement opposing the House bill and saying it will score as a key vote. Could be interesting in the House tonight.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.
ARTICLE I, SECTION 5, CLAUSE 4
ARTICLE I, SECTION 5, CLAUSE 4
