The "What has Shanahan won w/o Elway" argument (1 Viewer)

[Ghost Rider]

Is old and tired and makes absolutely no sense.What has Belichick ever won without Tom Brady?What did Bill Walsh ever win without Joe Montana?What did Jimmy Johnson ever win without Troy Aikman?If you are going to hold Shanahan to a certain standard, then you must hold these other coaches to the EXACT SAME standard.

 

[Fantasy Man]

The problem with your stance is that in the three examples you cite, the coaches did not coach an appreciable amount of time without said quarterback. Shanahan has, and hasn't done anything of note.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Really? How did Belichick do in Cleveland? What was his record in New England before Brady became the starter?

 

[Fantasy Man]

Really? How did Belichick do in Cleveland? What was his record in New England before Brady became the starter?

I didn't think I needed to qualify my post by saying "win with a team that didn't suck" but I suppose I should have.Did you expect Belichick to win with the talent he had in Cleveland?

 

[thetman]

Shanahan is a great offensive coordinator, not sure about head coach until he wins something without TD and Elway.

 

[Ray]

What has Elway won w/o Shannahan?

 

[Ray]

Did you expect Belichick to win with the talent he had in Cleveland?

haha...did you expect shannahan to win w/griese?

 

[Koya]

What has Elway won w/o Shannahan?

One of the best QBs that ever played the game - who singlehandedly led average teams to great heights on his shoulders alone. No running game, not very good WRs... and a great offense because of Elway.

 

[Ray]

What has Elway won w/o Shannahan?

One of the best QBs that ever played the game - who singlehandedly led average teams to great heights on his shoulders alone. No running game, not very good WRs...

...so, he won dan marino?

 

[Koya]

What has Elway won w/o Shannahan?

One of the best QBs that ever played the game - who singlehandedly led average teams to great heights on his shoulders alone. No running game, not very good WRs...

...so, he won dan marino?

Got to the SB three times. Without much help mind you.

 

[dgreen]

What did Gibbs ever win without Theismann, Williams, or Rypien?

 

[BigRed]

What has Elway won w/o Shannahan?

One of the best QBs that ever played the game - who singlehandedly led average teams to great heights on his shoulders alone. No running game, not very good WRs... and a great offense because of Elway.

So nice to have Mrs Elway check in.

 

[Stillers Jr.]

Really? How did Belichick do in Cleveland? What was his record in New England before Brady became the starter?

I didn't think I needed to qualify my post by saying "win with a team that didn't suck" but I suppose I should have.Did you expect Belichick to win with the talent he had in Cleveland?

Cleveland was a playoff team, so they couldn't have totally sucked...no?

 

[thesurfshop19]

For the record, Shanahan was on the Broncos sideline during every single Elway playoff victory as QB coach, offensive coordinator, or head coach.

In the 6 seasons that Shanahan was not on Elway's sideline in that capacity, he was 0-3 in the playoffs.

Interesting numbers, eh? 6 years, 0-3 in playoffs, sounds just like Shanahan's head coaching Broncos record without Elway!

EDIT: Wanted to add a post from 2 years ago from a similar thread. Add an 0-1 playoff record for Shanahan in 2004 (and who knows in 2005!), because I'm too lazy to touch it up myself.

I'm here to post some facts, make your own conclusions.

John Elway's postseason career:

[a: Shanahan WR coach, b: Shanahan QB coach, c: Shanahan offensive coordinator; d: Shanahan head coach]

1983: 0-1

1984a: 0-1

1985c: none

1986c: 2-1 (L Super Bowl)

1987c: 2-1 (L Super Bowl)

1988: none

1989b: 2-1 (L Super Bowl)

1990b: none

1991c: 1-1

1992: none

1993: 0-1

1994: none

1995d: none

1996d: 0-1

1997d: 4-0 (W Super Bowl)

1998d: 3-0 (W Super Bowl)

Total record: 14-8

Seasons with Shanahan: 11

Seasons without Shanahan: 5

Record with Shanahan: 14-6

Record without Shanahan: 0-2

Seasons with Terrell Davis: 4

Seasons without Terrell Davis: 12

Record with Terrell Davis: 7-1

Record without Terrell Davis: 7-7

Mike Shanahan's postseason career without Elway:

1988: none (Raiders HC)

1989: none (Raiders HC for 4 games; then went to Broncos as QB coach)

1992: 1-1 (49ers OC)

1993: 1-1 (49ers OC)

1994: 3-0 (49ers OC)

1999: none

2000: 0-1

2001: none

2002: none

2003: 0-1

Total record (including Elway): 19-10

Seasons with Elway: 11

Seasons without Elway: 10

Record with Elway: 14-6

Record without Elway: 5-4

The point isn't that Shanahan's necessarily the greatest coach or even the best fit for the Broncos right now.  The point is that Shanahan has won without Elway -- a Super Bowl, in fact -- but Elway hasn't won without Shanahan working with him.  Just something to think about.

Your average person is always looking for a situation when there's two people to see "who is the real person behind the success."  Clearly, there are interaction effects that are taking place here, and maybe, someday, these people will understand this.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Thanks for posting that, thesurfshop19. Also, I have seen some denounce Parcells by asking what has he ever won without Bill Belichick. This is seemingly giving credit to Belichick for his work as a coordinator. Shouldn't Shanahan being given the same credit for his work as a coordinator with the 49ers, especially when you consider that he left to coach the Broncos after their Super Bowl season and the 49ers have not advanced past the 2nd round since then even though they essentially still had the same offense for years after that!

 

[redman]

The Shanahan argument is a poor one IMHO because his poor playoff showings in recent years have all coincided with a resurgence in overall AFC talent. Post-Elway also happens to be the era when Vermeil went to KC, the Patriots had their dynasty, the Colts put it together under Dungy, the Steelers finally dumped Kordell, and even the Bengals stopped losing. Shanahan's a good coach in a tough division in a tough conference. Parcells is the more interesting argument IMHO because I truly do see reason to suspect that Belichick was a central part of his success. I've broken this down before, but if you'll notice every new coaching stop he's made up to and including the present one with the Cowboys has resulted in a poorer showing (as measured by best playoff showing) than the last one. What's interesting about the Belichick argument for me is that if you listen to Cowboys' fans gripes right now, they're all blaming Parcells' assistants (particularly Sean Peyton) for screwing up.

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

What has Marv Levy ever done w/o Jim Kelly?

 

[redman]

What has Marv Levy ever done w/o Jim Kelly?

Bud Grant - Fran TarkentonChuck Noll - Terry Bradshaw

Tom Landry - Roger Staubach (less valid because he was still successful, but still . .)

Brian Billick - Trent Dilfer

Yeah, I'm a 'Skins fan, but this is what's so impressive to me about Joe Gibbs winning with not only 3 different QB's, but 3 QB's who'll only get to Canton by buying their own bus tickets.

 

[thesurfshop19]

Thanks for posting that, thesurfshop19.

Also, I have seen some denounce Parcells by asking what has he ever won without Bill Belichick. This is seemingly giving credit to Belichick for his work as a coordinator. Shouldn't Shanahan being given the same credit for his work as a coordinator with the 49ers, especially when you consider that he left to coach the Broncos after their Super Bowl season and the 49ers have not advanced past the 2nd round since then even though they essentially still had the same offense for years after that!

I totally agree. Shanahan's offenses with the 49ers were #1 in the league in yards and points in all 3 years he was there (I can't think of any other team outside of the 1999-2001 Rams that did that!).Joe Montana's teams never did that, and the 1994 Niners won the title based on offense. You could easily argue that Shanahan was the missing ingredient there!

I think as a gameplan and gameday coach that Shanahan's easily in Belichick's class. Until this year, Shanahan hasn't gotten the right mix of personnel post-Elway, but what he's done with Plummer is remarkable. He hasn't made Plummer merely a "game manager" as the media continues to report, but he's made Plummer into a playmaker without the turnovers. I think Denver has a legit shot to win the Super Bowl (I'd say at least 10%, wouldn't you?), and if they do it with this bunch Shanahan arguably would deserve a lifetime pass in Denver.

 

[thesurfshop19]

The Shanahan argument is a poor one IMHO because his poor playoff showings in recent years have all coincided with a resurgence in overall AFC talent. Post-Elway also happens to be the era when Vermeil went to KC, the Patriots had their dynasty, the Colts put it together under Dungy, the Steelers finally dumped Kordell, and even the Bengals stopped losing. Shanahan's a good coach in a tough division in a tough conference.

Great points.I think people sometimes forget that you need the players to win titles in this league.

You can win with a good-to-mediocre QB if the rest of the team is awesome (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs), but other than that, since 1992, you need a top-flight QB to get the job done.

Brady, Warner, Elway, Favre, Aikman, Young have combined to win 11 of the last 13 Super Bowls, and Manning and Brady are probably the favorites this year.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Parcells is the more interesting argument IMHO because I truly do see reason to suspect that Belichick was a central part of his success. I've broken this down before, but if you'll notice every new coaching stop he's made up to and including the present one with the Cowboys has resulted in a poorer showing (as measured by best playoff showing) than the last one.

What's interesting about the Belichick argument for me is that if you listen to Cowboys' fans gripes right now, they're all blaming Parcells' assistants (particularly Sean Peyton) for screwing up.

Parcells deal seems to be to join a team that has talent, but that has underachieved, get them to improve and then bail on them just when it appears as if they might be on the verge of becoming a champion (like he did with NE and the Jets). It is interesting, too, that his success has went down with each stop he has made. His record in Dallas in three seasons is one playoff trip and a barely over .500 record. Yet the talking heads at ESPN still fawn all over him. It is quite sickening, actually.

I totally agree. Shanahan's offenses with the 49ers were #1 in the league in yards and points in all 3 years he was there (I can't think of any other team outside of the 1999-2001 Rams that did that!).

Joe Montana's teams never did that, and the 1994 Niners won the title based on offense. You could easily argue that Shanahan was the missing ingredient there!

I think as a gameplan and gameday coach that Shanahan's easily in Belichick's class. Until this year, Shanahan hasn't gotten the right mix of personnel post-Elway, but what he's done with Plummer is remarkable. He hasn't made Plummer merely a "game manager" as the media continues to report, but he's made Plummer into a playmaker without the turnovers. I think Denver has a legit shot to win the Super Bowl (I'd say at least 10%, wouldn't you?), and if they do it with this bunch Shanahan arguably would deserve a lifetime pass in Denver.

In an article in USA Today Weekly last week, Shannon Sharpe said this season might have been Shanahan's best coaching job to date and he might be right. When you take into account that Plummer was showing signs of regressing at the end of last season (like the SD game where his turnovers prevented a win) and the fact that no one knew what to expect out of the Cleveland defensive rejects, what Shanahan did is quite amazing. He has, like you said, turned Plummer into an almost mistake-free playmaker. The defense has played well and is finally creating turnovers. The running game, despite not having a flashy featured runner, is still dominant. The Broncos had one of the hardest two or three schedules in the NFL and still finished 13-3. The fact that his name isn't being brought up for coach of the year is ridiculous.

As for their chances at winning the Super Bowl this year, I am not sure they can beat the Colts, but if NE or Pittsburgh can knock off the Colts in the 2nd round, I think Denver can win it all. They run the ball well and they stop the run, two things you have to be able to do to win in the playoffs. Even if they do not win it all, it has still been a helluva season and the future looks bright in Denver.

 

[redman]

BTW, because I detest Al Davis, the Raiders' next head coaching hire (after they dispatch Norv Turner), will be their 7th since they fired Shanahan, and their 6th since Denver hired him.

 

[Ghost Rider]

BTW, because I detest Al Davis, the Raiders' next head coaching hire (after they dispatch Norv Turner), will be their 7th since they fired Shanahan, and their 6th since Denver hired him.

I find that pretty funny, too. Almost as funny as the beating Oakland took at the hands of Brad Johnson and Michael Pittman in Super Bowl 37.