The Wheel of Time - Books only (1 Viewer)

[Gr00vus]

@GregR Re: Moiraine using the one power as a weapon.

Won’t it be easy for her to claim Rand, really Lews, as an Aes Sedai? His life wasn in danger, so classic oath loophole?

If we're looking for technicality loopholes, probably the easier case to make is that all the people on those boats were darkfriends.

 

[GregR]

@GregR Re: Moiraine using the one power as a weapon.

Won’t it be easy for her to claim Rand, really Lews, as an Aes Sedai? His life wasn in danger, so classic oath loophole?

If we're looking for technicality loopholes, probably the easier case to make is that all the people on those boats were darkfriends.

Well the Oaths come down to her belief. While they can get around lying by saying things that are truthful but likely to be misinterpreted, saying something outright they actually have to believe it at the time. Being able to make an argument on it isn't enough, she has to believe that's actually the correct argument.

Does she believe they are Darkfriends? She doesn't have any reason to that I could argue. What involvement did she have with them that would make her actually believe those specific damane, suldam, etc swore their souls to the Dark One? To a level of feeling certain?

Similar with considering Rand as Aes Sedai. Does she believe Rand is actually Lews Therin or think he's Lews Therin's soul reborn? I'd say the latter. I can't imagine she'd believe that makes him Aes Sedai.

 

[GregR]

There's some timing for you. We were just talking about sinking boats and killing people on them , and I got to this in book 10. A half dozen ships making a break for Tar Valon's harbor during the siege. Egwene watching:

True, from where she sat her horse, she could have set fire to every one of those ships, or simply cut through their hulls and let them sink.... Yet doing so surely meant some of those aboard would drown... Even one death would make what she did using the Power as a weapon.

She hasn't taken the Oaths, but was trying to live by them. But she spells out the kind of details we discussed for those who have taken the Oaths:

A sister who had sworn on the Oath Rod would not be able to make herself set those weaves, perhaps not even to form them, unless she could convince herself she was in immediate danger from the ships.

 

[The Gator]

There's some timing for you. We were just talking about sinking boats and killing people on them , and I got to this in book 10. A half dozen ships making a break for Tar Valon's harbor during the siege. Egwene watching:

True, from where she sat her horse, she could have set fire to every one of those ships, or simply cut through their hulls and let them sink.... Yet doing so surely meant some of those aboard would drown... Even one death would make what she did using the Power as a weapon.

She hasn't taken the Oaths, but was trying to live by them. But she spells out the kind of details we discussed for those who have taken the Oaths:

A sister who had sworn on the Oath Rod would not be able to make herself set those weaves, perhaps not even to form them, unless she could convince herself she was in immediate danger from the ships.

Yeah, agree 100% here for the books. The show, however, has focused more on Rand being Lews than the books did at the beginning iirc. Ishamael and Lanfear are constantly referencing Lews in their conversations with Rand. In ep7 I think there's even a flashback where Lews calls himself an Aes Sedai. I feel like the show tried/trying to setup Rand as a male Aes Sedai soon.

I had a bigger issue with Egwene collaring Renna. Not sure they can explain that one out.

 

[Rich Conway]

So many things about the show bother me. One of the worst was it being Aviendha that Perrin frees from the cage. Possibly more than anything else, this felt to me like the show writers didn't really bother paying attention to the books.

Writer 1: In book 3, looks like Perrin rescues an Aiel trapped in a cage.
Writer 2: I think there's this important character named Aviendha. She's an Aiel!
Writer 1: Great, stick her in a cage!

 

[GregR]

So many things about the show bother me. One of the worst was it being Aviendha that Perrin frees from the cage. Possibly more than anything else, this felt to me like the show writers didn't really bother paying attention to the books.

Writer 1: In book 3, looks like Perrin rescues an Aiel trapped in a cage.
Writer 2: I think there's this important character named Aviendha. She's an Aiel!
Writer 1: Great, stick her in a cage!

I just figured that's their compromise with not having the budget and time for everything. They probably won't have Gaul in the series at all, or at least as a character with any significance. So they could either drop the cage scene entirely, or use another Aiel that they do need to include.

For awhile there I was worried they are going to have Mat and Min hook up, and Perrin and Aviendha. If Faile isn't in the TV show I'm going to flip tables.

Ok, flip even more tables.

 

[GregR]

There's some timing for you. We were just talking about sinking boats and killing people on them , and I got to this in book 10. A half dozen ships making a break for Tar Valon's harbor during the siege. Egwene watching:

True, from where she sat her horse, she could have set fire to every one of those ships, or simply cut through their hulls and let them sink.... Yet doing so surely meant some of those aboard would drown... Even one death would make what she did using the Power as a weapon.

She hasn't taken the Oaths, but was trying to live by them. But she spells out the kind of details we discussed for those who have taken the Oaths:

A sister who had sworn on the Oath Rod would not be able to make herself set those weaves, perhaps not even to form them, unless she could convince herself she was in immediate danger from the ships.

Yeah, agree 100% here for the books. The show, however, has focused more on Rand being Lews than the books did at the beginning iirc. Ishamael and Lanfear are constantly referencing Lews in their conversations with Rand. In ep7 I think there's even a flashback where Lews calls himself an Aes Sedai. I feel like the show tried/trying to setup Rand as a male Aes Sedai soon.

I had a bigger issue with Egwene collaring Renna. Not sure they can explain that one out.

I don't think the show's writers care enough to have learned the world, is the problem, and we are giving them far too much credit, heh. I saw this the other day:

In season 1, Brandon Sanderson said in a podcast that Moiraine was initially written to directly kill that ship captain and his boat in one of the early episodes, before he wrote in a suggestion to change that scene because her Oaths wouldn't allow her to do that.

I am guessing they are talking about the ferry sinking there.

At most I won't be surprised if they threw in the Seanchan soldiers attacking them on the beach to try to claim she channeled in defense. Which I wouldn't buy either since they weren't part of the attack on her at all.

 

[GregR]

And into book 12, the first of the Brandon Sanderson books.

I had forgotten in book 11

Spoiler

the part about the Ogier Stump was to decide if they should leave this world to another (via the "Book of Translation") so they'd be ready to come to the world again for the first time when the Wheel had turned on to their arrival again

 

[GregR]

I had forgotten what a good job Sanderson does with portraying the characters. Personality and demeanor and such. I didn't notice any characters behaving in a way that stood out as someone else writing them for the first 40% of the book. Not until Mat first shows up. Mat he definitely writes with a little more comedy to him.

 

[GregR]

Verin's unexpected visit to Egwene...

Defending the Tower...

Adelorna turned hesitantly. A woman in white stood atop the rubble a short distance away, a massive halo of power surrounding her, her arm outstretched toward the fleeing soldiers, her eyes intense. The woman stood like vengeance itself, the power of saidar like a storm around her. The very air seemed alight, and her brown hair blew from the wind of the open gap in the wall beside them. Egwene al'Vere.

Chills.

 

[GregR]

Great stretch in next to last book.

Spoiler: Three battles for the price of one

Absolutely love the whole Perrin+Hopper vs Slayer under the dreamspike in Tar Valon...
While Egwene+Nynaeve+Suian+Leane+Amys+Bair+Melaine square off against Mesaana, Alviarin and the Black in Tel'aran'rhiod...
While Gawyn is in her room facing down 3 Bloodknives over Egwene's sleeping body.

Just tremendous sequence. Favorite moment, Egwene's reaction when Perrin just holds up his hand and makes Alviarin's balefire just fizzle out short of hitting him, and he tells her, "They are just weaves."

Also, God bless Brandon Sanderson for the callback as he works in a clean version of "easing the badger".

 

[GregR]

"If you ever meet a Malkieri, you tell him Jain Farstrider died clean."

"I will Jain," Mat said. "May the Light hold you."

 

[The Gator]

Great stretch in next to last book.

Spoiler: Three battles for the price of one

Absolutely love the whole Perrin+Hopper vs Slayer under the dreamspike in Tar Valon...
While Egwene+Nynaeve+Suian+Leane+Amys+Bair+Melaine square off against Mesaana, Alviarin and the Black in Tel'aran'rhiod...
While Gawyn is in her room facing down 3 Bloodknives over Egwene's sleeping body.

Just tremendous sequence. Favorite moment, Egwene's reaction when Perrin just holds up his hand and makes Alviarin's balefire just fizzle out short of hitting him, and he tells her, "They are just weaves."

Also, God bless Brandon Sanderson for the callback as he works in a clean version of "easing the badger".

Sanderson introduces one of my favorite secondary characters in Lord Talmanas. Love him, really freaking love his and Mats interactions.

 

[GregR]

And on to the final book! Tarmon Gai'don awaits.

 

[Rich Conway]

And on to the final book! Tarmon Gai'don awaits.

The final book is batshit crazy, in the best way.

 

[nysfl2]

I had forgotten what a good job Sanderson does with portraying the characters. Personality and demeanor and such. I didn't notice any characters behaving in a way that stood out as someone else writing them for the first 40% of the book. Not until Mat first shows up. Mat he definitely writes with a little more comedy to him.

Sanderson is a vastly better writer than Jordan overall. Those last books that he wrote were excellent.

 

[PIK95]

I took a pause in these again to read the Foundation books. I read the first two this week, pretty decent. Although I have a bad habit of figuring out everything before anything happens. This one might have been a record for mw though, lol. The Wheel of Time books were so busy that my mind didn't really wander and blow the surprises.

 

[GregR]

I had forgotten what a good job Sanderson does with portraying the characters. Personality and demeanor and such. I didn't notice any characters behaving in a way that stood out as someone else writing them for the first 40% of the book. Not until Mat first shows up. Mat he definitely writes with a little more comedy to him.

Sanderson is a vastly better writer than Jordan overall. Those last books that he wrote were excellent.

Sanderson's Mistborn books are one of my favorites if you've not read other stuff by him and want a recommendation. Had read those before he took on the Wheel of Time ending.

Elantris is probably better known, and was decent, but a much bigger fan of Mistborn.

 

[Rich Conway]

Sanderson's Mistborn books are one of my favorites if you've not read other stuff by him and want a recommendation. Had read those before he took on the Wheel of Time ending.

Elantris is probably better known, and was decent, but a much bigger fan of Mistborn.

I liked Elantris. Haven't tried Mistborn yet. Have to go check that out.

 

[GregR]

So here is something kind of relatively new as it was revealed in a book Nov 2022 about the writing of and the mythology of the Wheel of Time.

Spoiler: This is about Nakomi, the Aiel woman that Aviendha encountered at night when she made her trip to Rhuidean

Nakomi was actually an avatar of the Creator, sent to guide Aviendha. She was basically the Creator's equivalent to Shadar Haran. Not positive but that might be only the second time that the Creator takes a direct hand. The other I'm sure of, being when he talks to Rand after he finds the Eye in the first book, to tell Rand he won't take a direct hand.

Edit: Ok, there's apparently a third time, just I haven't gotten to it in the final book and didn't remember it from last read through.

 

[GregR]

"So you've been reading this book series for months now? Like a half a year?"

"Yep. Probably closer to the full year than not. Fourteen books. They average over 800 pages each."

"Damn, that's a lot! So what's it about, anyway?"

"What's it about? Well... Ok, so, there's this horse named Bela..."

 

[The Gator]

just starting listening to Knife of Dreams again.. Time to start skipping some elayne chapters

"Muh babes!"

 

[GregR]

Had trouble sleeping so I ended up reading and read through the night to finish it off.

Man, final book just so much packed in there. I am blessed by being able to forget a lot of details in books and movies until I've read/watched them several times. I only remembered a couple of things clearly from previous read.

I think I enjoyed Rand's part in it much more than I had previously. I kind of recall thinking it was a weaker part of the book, but I didn't feel that way this time.

 

[The Gator]

Forgot how good Towers of Midnight starts.

Apples First, with a book 2(?) call back, right after a great Graendal prolog. Then Rand waltzing into Tar Valon . Love it