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Theoretical question (1 Viewer)

Would you take Crosby at 1.1?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 1 100.0%

  • Total voters
    1

gianmarco

Footballguy
Let's assume that your league has some crazy rule that says all FG's kicked at Lambeau field were worth 10 pts each and XP's at Lambeau are worth 5 pts each.. As a result, Mason Crosby begins to average ~25 ppg. While his scoring is on par with the top QBs or RBs in your league, he obviously has a sizable advantage compared to every other K in the league. Let's assume that the #2 PK is averaging ~12 ppg.

Would he become the most valuable player in your fantasy league? Would you take him at 1.1?

 
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no... he still plays on the road half the time and there'll still be away teams at Lambeau to go after. I might burn an extra roster spot on a back up kicker like Gould, Hanson or Longwell... but I wouldn't take Mason #1st.

 
don't know why i get sucked into these, BUT, depends what his playoff schedule is like, i'd be sneaky and grab the opposing K at GB during the playoffs. If GB was not at home during the playoffs I would pass on K until normal.

Most likely I wouldn't play in this league.

 
In a reasonable scenario, then no, I would never take a kicker #1. In your scenario, where one particular player plays by a completely different set of rules than the rest of the league, then sure I'd take him #1 overall. And if my league had a rule that said that every pass attempted by someone named David Garrard was worth 100 points, I'd trade my entire draft to land David Garrard. That's a stupid hypothetical, though. There are no special rules where an action by one player is worth a different value than the exact same action by another player at the exact same position. Given a more reasonable scenario (all kickers are scored the same), then there is no possible situation where I would draft a kicker at #1 overall unless I was playing in a kickers-only league.Here's a post from the preseason that I made on a similar subject (whether it might make sense to draft defenses high in certain scoring systems). The same reasoning holds true here, too.

In my mind, in order to be worthy of a high draft pick, a position must meet three criteria.Criteria #1- the position must be valuable. This one is pretty self evident. There's no point in spending a high draft pick on a position that will contribute very little value to your roster. If your league has a "head coach" position that gets you 1 point for a win and 0 points for a loss, then there's no blessed reason to ever take a head coach in your draft ever, period. They just aren't valuable. The difference between the 2007 Patriots and the 2008 Lions is just 16 points.Criteria #2- the position must be predictable. This one should also be self evident. How frequently does the player who ranks 1st in preseason ADP finish 1st in points? How often does he finish in the top 5? The top 10? How often do guys taken outside of the top 12 finish inside the top 6? How often do guys taken outside the top 24 finish inside the top 12? There's no sense spending a high draft pick on a position that has been historically unpredictable, because you're just as likely to get a stud with the first player off the board as you are with the 12th.Criteria #3- the position must be difficult to replace. If you don't spend a high pick on the position, then how easy will it be for you to acquire quality contributors during the season? How often are quality players available on waivers? How successful are by-committee approaches to the position?By my reckoning, defenses will sometimes meet criteria #1 (they are often valuable- depending on the scoring system, owning the #1 defense can frequently give a large advantage), but they almost always fail MISERABLY at point #2 and point #3. There's so much unpredictability from season to season that we never know for sure which units are the dominant ones until the season is half over. Few positions see so many players regarded as "bad" during the preseason wind up radically outperforming expectations during the season (witness Cincinnati, Denver, and New Orleans last year, just to name a few). Part of that is because defenses rely heavily on 11 moving parts, and all it takes is one of them getting injured (witness: Troy Polamalu) or playing out of his mind (witness: Darren Sharper) to radically alter the defense's fates. In addition, I don't think there's a single other position in fantasy football that is affected by matchups to a greater degree, which means that Defense-By-Committee approaches will frequently score as highly as getting a single stud defense. Plus, there's absolutely no positional scarcity (I have yet to hear of a start-2-defense league), which means impact performers (or bad defenses with fantastic matchups) are frequently available on the waiver wire. Just look at Arizona last year. They were a poor defense all season long, but around week 10 a lot of people started noticing that they played Detroit and St. Louis in weeks 15 and 16, so people quietly added them for the playoff run. Sure enough, in those two weeks the Cardinals totalled 6 sacks and 7 takeaways, giving up only 27 points (plus another 7 points given up by the offense on a 100 yard INT return). The Cardinals outperformed most of the "stud" defenses when it really mattered simply because they had the right matchups.Given all of that, I would never take a defense high. I'd much rather grab some sleepers with upside, constantly pan the wire, and play matchups to achieve the same result (if not better!) with a fraction of the resource investment.
 
Curious to see where you're going here, but given the scenario you've outlined, I can't see much argument for not taking Crosby #1 overall.

1) an expected 13ppg advantage over #2

2) a player at a position that is probably more likely to avoid injury than other high picks

A player with these advantages at any other position would be a lock for #1 if I were drafting at that slot.

...though, if you're trying to draw comparisons to Vick, I don't think the situation is similar enough to be applicable...

 
I happen to play in a league with inflated K scoring, and they get drafted about when they get drafted in other leagues. The problem is that, even though they score tons of points, you can pick up a great one on the waiver wire (none of that year's elites get drafted early, and some don't get drafted at all).

In this unrealistic scenario, I would take the kicker in the third round, but not 1.1. You might get the Packers scoring 14 points in a couple of home games, which is 10 points for the K, and you lost your big advantage. Then you're down to six "advantage" games (assuming a home game isn't in week 17 when it doesn't matter), and while I'd like the advantage it wouldn't be worth drafting that early.

Obviously, the point is that scoring system definitelty affects how you draft. If I played in a hypothetical 3 QB league, for example, I'd draft QBs until all the starters and the good backups were gone.

 
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i have a suspicion you are trying to create some argument against vick here.

my answer is yes with no question.

if i have him projected to score 13 more ppg than the next highest kicker and 15 ppg more than the average kicker, then i am taking him at 1.1. even if his adp was a 2nd-3rd rounder for some reason, i wouldn't even take the chance of missing out on him

if i didnt have the 1.1, i'd trade my first and 2nd to move up to get him if thats what it took

crosby+waiver rb>>>#2 kicker+sjax

 
no... he still plays on the road half the time and there'll still be away teams at Lambeau to go after. I might burn an extra roster spot on a back up kicker like Gould, Hanson or Longwell... but I wouldn't take Mason #1st.
Trying to work out your response in my head (because I was trying to think of good arguments against taking Crosby in the first). I've come up with this:If the average scoring for kickers is 12ppg, they are scoring 192 points over 16 games, for Crosby to average 25ppg, he'd score about average for 8 away games (96 points) and then 304 points for the remaining 8 home games (or about 38ppg). This is a full 26ppg above average for home games. Not only a huge advantage, but also one you can actually predict.If, at the beginning of your draft, with the #1 pick, you were offered A) your choice of player or B) a guaranteed 26 point advantage 8 games out of the season (and average production the other 8) I think you'd be hard-pressed to say no.
 
If you have kickers in you're league than your part of a league that sucks.
If your (possessive) league doesn't subtract points for posts like this, then (it follows that) you're (contraction for "you are") in a league that sucks.
 
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no... he still plays on the road half the time and there'll still be away teams at Lambeau to go after. I might burn an extra roster spot on a back up kicker like Gould, Hanson or Longwell... but I wouldn't take Mason #1st.
Trying to work out your response in my head (because I was trying to think of good arguments against taking Crosby in the first). I've come up with this:If the average scoring for kickers is 12ppg, they are scoring 192 points over 16 games, for Crosby to average 25ppg, he'd score about average for 8 away games (96 points) and then 304 points for the remaining 8 home games (or about 38ppg). This is a full 26ppg above average for home games. Not only a huge advantage, but also one you can actually predict.If, at the beginning of your draft, with the #1 pick, you were offered A) your choice of player or B) a guaranteed 26 point advantage 8 games out of the season (and average production the other 8) I think you'd be hard-pressed to say no.
It's possible I would be making a huge mistake, but I feel I could exploit the advantage that K's get at Lambeau w/ out spending the 1st overall on Crosby. If it's a total points league I don't think you could do that, but in a H2H, I think it's totally possible.
 
no... he still plays on the road half the time and there'll still be away teams at Lambeau to go after. I might burn an extra roster spot on a back up kicker like Gould, Hanson or Longwell... but I wouldn't take Mason #1st.
Trying to work out your response in my head (because I was trying to think of good arguments against taking Crosby in the first). I've come up with this:If the average scoring for kickers is 12ppg, they are scoring 192 points over 16 games, for Crosby to average 25ppg, he'd score about average for 8 away games (96 points) and then 304 points for the remaining 8 home games (or about 38ppg). This is a full 26ppg above average for home games. Not only a huge advantage, but also one you can actually predict.If, at the beginning of your draft, with the #1 pick, you were offered A) your choice of player or B) a guaranteed 26 point advantage 8 games out of the season (and average production the other 8) I think you'd be hard-pressed to say no.
It's possible I would be making a huge mistake, but I feel I could exploit the advantage that K's get at Lambeau w/ out spending the 1st overall on Crosby. If it's a total points league I don't think you could do that, but in a H2H, I think it's totally possible.
Well, there's only one way you *could* exploit this, the way I see it, which would be pick up the kicker playing against the Packers at Lambeau each week (a total of 8 kickers all season long). Given the scenario, I feel pretty confident that you'd have no better chance at obtaining those players prior to their game at Lambeau than the other 10 teams in your league who are likely trying to do the same thing - in fact, given that everyone knows the scoring ahead of time, it's likely that the other 8 kickers would already be on someone's roster post-draft, making this strategy even more ineffectual.Is there another way to exploit this scenario that I'm missing?
 
Is there another way to exploit this scenario that I'm missing?
Nope... but going into this year you could've grabbed Tynes w/ a later pick knowing that there'd only be one playoff game at Lambeau and he'd prob be the other kicker. Then check the H2H sched and if you go against the Crosby owner when GB is at home try like hell to get the K of the team they face that week.
 
No matter the scoring I would hold off on kicker until the last possible (whenever people have doubled or tripled up on kickers, would want at least a starter)

 
We should run a league next year where the rules are comprised of all of these goofy hypothetical situations.

-QG

 
depends, is the scoring jacked up enough to give Andy Lee a 20 ppg advantage over other punters too? Suh 15 ppg over other DTs?

 
gianmarco said:
bonesman said:
results are 24-24 after 50 votes.
I have to admit, I find that fascinating.
Ok, so can we find out what the point of this question was now?
He's trying to find out how many people in the Shark Pool don't understand VBD. Based on the first couple results, there are quite a few.
i get the feeling most of the "no" votes are really just "this is a stupid hypo so im voting the wrong answer" votesi think in real fantasy life it would be closer to 80-90% yes, imo
 

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