Tiebreaker Question (1 Viewer)

[Beau Tocks]

A commish question.

Here is our tiebreaker criteria for playoff entry.

1. W/L record

2. HTH record

3. Overall points

Here is the scenario, let's say 3 teams with same w/l records contend for just one playoff spot. Every team has played each other twice during the season.

Team A lost to team B twice and split with team C. Leads in overall points over team B and team C.

Team B beat team A twice and split with team C. Remains behind Team A and Team C in overall points.

Team C split with team A and split with team B. Remains behind Team A and is ahead of team C in overall points.

What team should make the playoff based on this criteria?

 

[David Yudkin]

Does Team B have a 3-1 record (and best record) against the 2 other teams?

 

[FavreCo]

Good luck with that one. I say Team B since his HTH is 3-1 unless you have a stipulation in your tie-breakers that says it must be a HTH sweep. If so, them it's Team A by points.

 

[dennis.moore]

Are you starting your playoffs this week? If not, then why worry about it now.

 

[John 14:6]

Are you starting your playoffs this week? If not, then why worry about it now.

It's a good idea to have this type of thing squared away ahead of time just in case...I agree with FavreCo...

 

[Beau Tocks]

Are you starting your playoffs this week? If not, then why worry about it now.

It's a good idea to have this type of thing squared away ahead of time just in case...

That's always been my line of thought. As far as sweeping the 2 games,that is a must for the tiebreaker. We do not look at the total w/l records only amoung the contending teams. So with this in mind I'm looking at Team A as the one to advance but I was pondering any other angles I might be missing here.

 

[John 14:6]

Are you starting your playoffs this week? If not, then why worry about it now.

It's a good idea to have this type of thing squared away ahead of time just in case...

That's always been my line of thought. As far as sweeping the 2 games,that is a must for the tiebreaker. We do not look at the total w/l records only amoung the contending teams. So with this in mind I'm looking at Team A as the one to advance but I was pondering any other angles I might be missing here.

It depends on how exactly your rules have it stated.

 

[Keith R]

A commish question. Here is our tiebreaker criteria for playoff entry. 1. W/L record 2. HTH record 3. Overall points Here is the scenario, let's say 3 teams with same w/l records contend for just one playoff spot. Every team has played each other twice during the season. Team A lost to team B twice and split with team C. Leads in overall points over team B and team C. Team B beat team A twice and split with team C. Remains behind Team A and Team C in overall points. Team C split with team A and split with team B. Remains behind Team A and is ahead of team C in overall points. What team should make the playoff based on this criteria?

Given what you posted above and taking nothing else into account (i.e., what you really should do, current rules notwithstanding), you look at HTH among the group first. Within the group;A is 1-3B is 3-1C is 2-2Therefore, your order of finish is B, C, A. Points do not get factored in. It's pretty clear that unless you have omitted something, this is the only way the issue can be decided per your current rules.

 

[imagroid]

H2H can't be used in a 3 way tie. It's a 1 one 1 tie-breaker. Now, if one team went 2-0 vs both teams, then it would apply. Otherwise you move onto the next next tiebreaker. Team with highest points moves on.

That's how I would do it.

 

[John 14:6]

H2H can't be used in a 3 way tie.

Yes it can (see above).

 

[imagroid]

H2H can't be used in a 3 way tie.

Yes it can (see above).

I disagree with it. You are basically going in a circle. If you use H2H to decide the TB, you will have 1 of the other teams saying to themselves "I split vs them or even I beat them twice". In a 3 way scenario, unless 1 team has a distinct H2H advantage over the other two teams, you move onto the next TB rule.

 

[Jagerbomber]

H2H can't be used in a 3 way tie.

Yes it can (see above).

I disagree with it. You are basically going in a circle. If you use H2H to decide the TB, you will have 1 of the other teams saying to themselves "I split vs them or even I beat them twice". In a 3 way scenario, unless 1 team has a distinct H2H advantage over the other two teams, you move onto the next TB rule.

I think 3-1 can be qualified as a distinct advantage but I agree that it's still not an airtight argumentIn our league we decided to not use H2H as a tiebreaker for this reason (gets complicated sometimes), we just use highest points.

 

[Beau Tocks]

H2H can't be used in a 3 way tie.

Yes it can (see above).

I disagree with it. You are basically going in a circle. If you use H2H to decide the TB, you will have 1 of the other teams saying to themselves "I split vs them or even I beat them twice". In a 3 way scenario, unless 1 team has a distinct H2H advantage over the other two teams, you move onto the next TB rule.

So, you are saying Team A in my given scenario correct?

 

[John 14:6]

H2H can't be used in a 3 way tie.

Yes it can (see above).

I disagree with it. You are basically going in a circle. If you use H2H to decide the TB, you will have 1 of the other teams saying to themselves "I split vs them or even I beat them twice". In a 3 way scenario, unless 1 team has a distinct H2H advantage over the other two teams, you move onto the next TB rule.

You're not going in a circle. If the teams are still tied H2H, THEN you go to the next tie breaker, which in this case is total points.

 

[John 14:6]

H2H can't be used in a 3 way tie.

Yes it can (see above).

I disagree with it. You are basically going in a circle. If you use H2H to decide the TB, you will have 1 of the other teams saying to themselves "I split vs them or even I beat them twice". In a 3 way scenario, unless 1 team has a distinct H2H advantage over the other two teams, you move onto the next TB rule.

So, you are saying Team A in my given scenario correct?

What basis do you have for skipping the H2H? Do your rules say that H2H is ONLY for two teams with the same record?

 

[Sam Quentin]

every year like clockwork

Eliminate h2h as a tiebreaker people.

 

[Sam Quentin]

Are you starting your playoffs this week? If not, then why worry about it now.

It's a good idea to have this type of thing squared away ahead of time just in case...I agree with FavreCo...

like, say back in August...

 

[imagroid]

H2H can't be used in a 3 way tie.

Yes it can (see above).

I disagree with it. You are basically going in a circle. If you use H2H to decide the TB, you will have 1 of the other teams saying to themselves "I split vs them or even I beat them twice". In a 3 way scenario, unless 1 team has a distinct H2H advantage over the other two teams, you move onto the next TB rule.

You're not going in a circle. If the teams are still tied H2H, THEN you go to the next tie breaker, which in this case is total points.

by the very definition of the word, head to head implies 2 teams. So, i'm sorry, but I totally disagree with you. You are going in a circle cause one team has TB over another and that one has TB over the other. Team A gets it imo.

 

[John 14:6]

every year like clockworkEliminate h2h as a tiebreaker people.

I like having H2H tiebreakers. It makes the divisional and conference games more important. This increases rivalries and adds to the fun IMO.

 

[TommyGilmore]

What basis do you have for skipping the H2H? Do your rules say that H2H is ONLY for two teams with the same record?

The term "H2H" implies that only 2 teams are involved. Therefore, I would not assume that it would be used in a 3-way tiebreaker UNLESS it was explicitly stated in the rules.

 

[Sam Quentin]

every year like clockworkEliminate h2h as a tiebreaker people.

I like having H2H tiebreakers. It makes the divisional and conference games more important. This increases rivalries and adds to the fun IMO.

because not having a clue who really made the playoffs at the end is so much fun, not to mention parsing the rules and not even knowing wth to root for or against....

 

[John 14:6]

Yes it can (see above).

I disagree with it. You are basically going in a circle. If you use H2H to decide the TB, you will have 1 of the other teams saying to themselves "I split vs them or even I beat them twice". In a 3 way scenario, unless 1 team has a distinct H2H advantage over the other two teams, you move onto the next TB rule.

You're not going in a circle. If the teams are still tied H2H, THEN you go to the next tie breaker, which in this case is total points.

by the very definition of the word, head to head implies 2 teams. So, i'm sorry, but I totally disagree with you. You are going in a circle cause one team has TB over another and that one has TB over the other.

Don't be sorry, it's ok to disagree. I don't see any reason why head-to-head can't involve more than 2 teams.It's not a circle if you follow the tie breaking steps. If one team has a better record but less points than another team, the team with the better record goes in. Same thing with H2H. No circling involved at all.

Team A gets it imo.

Not based on this league's rules as stated in the original post.

 

[David Yudkin]

H2H can't be used in a 3 way tie.

Yes it can (see above).

I disagree with it. You are basically going in a circle. If you use H2H to decide the TB, you will have 1 of the other teams saying to themselves "I split vs them or even I beat them twice". In a 3 way scenario, unless 1 team has a distinct H2H advantage over the other two teams, you move onto the next TB rule.

Depends what the league rules say. If there are no other multi-team timebreaker rules, I would use combined head to head. Since all teams played each team the same amount, I don't have a problem with that. If there was a disproportionate number of games, then I would come up with another option, ie, one team had 3 games where the others had 4 as an example.

 

[imagroid]

every year like clockworkEliminate h2h as a tiebreaker people.

I like having H2H tiebreakers. It makes the divisional and conference games more important. This increases rivalries and adds to the fun IMO.

because not having a clue who really made the playoffs at the end is so much fun, not to mention parsing the rules and not even knowing wth to root for or against....

Not having clear rules in general is bad. Nothing against H2H. Points leagues are fine, but YAWN. If it's good for the NFL, it's good for FF.

 

[John 14:6]

What basis do you have for skipping the H2H? Do your rules say that H2H is ONLY for two teams with the same record?

The term "H2H" implies that only 2 teams are involved. Therefore, I would not assume that it would be used in a 3-way tiebreaker UNLESS it was explicitly stated in the rules.

Just because the number 2 is used in the short-hand form of it? It's just simpler than saying H2H2H...How does the NFL handle this?

 

[John 14:6]

every year like clockworkEliminate h2h as a tiebreaker people.

I like having H2H tiebreakers. It makes the divisional and conference games more important. This increases rivalries and adds to the fun IMO.

because not having a clue who really made the playoffs at the end is so much fun, not to mention parsing the rules and not even knowing wth to root for or against....

That only happens if you don't have well written rules.

 

[Sam Quentin]

every year like clockwork

Eliminate h2h as a tiebreaker people.

I like having H2H tiebreakers. It makes the divisional and conference games more important. This increases rivalries and adds to the fun IMO.

because not having a clue who really made the playoffs at the end is so much fun, not to mention parsing the rules and not even knowing wth to root for or against....

Not having clear rules in general is bad. Nothing against H2H. Points leagues are fine, but YAWN. If it's good for the NFL, it's good for FF.

Do you draft punters and OL?Do you not give points for yardage?

 

[No Way Jose]

H2H can't be used in a 3 way tie. It's a 1 one 1 tie-breaker. Otherwise you move onto the next next tiebreaker. Team with highest points moves on. That's how I would do it.

This is how i do it in my league....but it is explicitly noted in the rules. *All to two team tiebreakers will be H2H then total points*All multi team tiebreakers goes straight to total points.3 way H2H is just asking for confusion and argument, and no one will be satisfied.

 

[TommyGilmore]

What basis do you have for skipping the H2H? Do your rules say that H2H is ONLY for two teams with the same record?

The term "H2H" implies that only 2 teams are involved. Therefore, I would not assume that it would be used in a 3-way tiebreaker UNLESS it was explicitly stated in the rules.

Just because the number 2 is used in the short-hand form of it? It's just simpler than saying H2H2H...How does the NFL handle this?

Within a division, they use H2H2H (since it's guaranteed that all teams played an equal number of times). It's specifically spelled out so that there can be no confusion.However, for the Wildcard, the NFL does not use H2H2H unless one team swept all the others.

 

[John 14:6]

every year like clockwork

Eliminate h2h as a tiebreaker people.

I like having H2H tiebreakers. It makes the divisional and conference games more important. This increases rivalries and adds to the fun IMO.

because not having a clue who really made the playoffs at the end is so much fun, not to mention parsing the rules and not even knowing wth to root for or against....

Not having clear rules in general is bad. Nothing against H2H. Points leagues are fine, but YAWN. If it's good for the NFL, it's good for FF.

Do you draft punters and OL?Do you not give points for yardage?

The point is the NFL uses H2H and they somehow can figure out what teams make the playoffs.

 

[No Way Jose]

What basis do you have for skipping the H2H? Do your rules say that H2H is ONLY for two teams with the same record?

The term "H2H" implies that only 2 teams are involved. Therefore, I would not assume that it would be used in a 3-way tiebreaker UNLESS it was explicitly stated in the rules.

Just because the number 2 is used in the short-hand form of it? It's just simpler than saying H2H2H...How does the NFL handle this?

H2H is different than H2H2H....there is a whole extra head there

 

[John 14:6]

What basis do you have for skipping the H2H? Do your rules say that H2H is ONLY for two teams with the same record?

The term "H2H" implies that only 2 teams are involved. Therefore, I would not assume that it would be used in a 3-way tiebreaker UNLESS it was explicitly stated in the rules.

Just because the number 2 is used in the short-hand form of it? It's just simpler than saying H2H2H...How does the NFL handle this?

Within a division, they use H2H2H (since it's guaranteed that all teams played an equal number of times). It's specifically spelled out so that there can be no confusion.However, for the Wildcard, the NFL does not use H2H2H unless one team swept all the others.

That's the important thing...

 

[FavreCo]

What basis do you have for skipping the H2H? Do your rules say that H2H is ONLY for two teams with the same record?

The term "H2H" implies that only 2 teams are involved. Therefore, I would not assume that it would be used in a 3-way tiebreaker UNLESS it was explicitly stated in the rules.

Just because the number 2 is used in the short-hand form of it? It's just simpler than saying H2H2H...How does the NFL handle this?

head to head sweep I beleive. One team must beat the other teams every game. One loss as is B's case, means go to next tie-breaker.

 

[imagroid]

Just because the number 2 is used in the short-hand form of it? It's just simpler than saying H2H2H...How does the NFL handle this?

head-to-head adjin direct competitionna competition involving two people, teams, etc.

Do you draft punters and OL?Do you not give points for yardage?

Obviously I meant as a means to break ties. HTH

 

[John 14:6]

Here's a link to the NFL tie-breakers:

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION

If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined.

.

.

.

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).

Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).

So it IS possible to have head-to-head with more than two teams. At least according to the NFL...

 

[David Yudkin]

Here's a link to the NFL tie-breakers:

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

Doesn't help in fantasy football though. The only thing that matters are the particular rules for a particular league.

 

[John 14:6]

Here's a link to the NFL tie-breakers:

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

Doesn't help in fantasy football though. The only thing that matters are the particular rules for a particular league.

True, but I figured it'd be a good reference. And, as I posted above, it shows that at least the NFL acknowledges that H2H can involve more than 2 teams...

 

[imagroid]

A 3 way tie within the division is essentially going to the team with the best div record. Playoff ties are totally different. NFL may use the word head to head, but it is incorrect by definition. It should merely read "(best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs)."

 

[John 14:6]

A 3 way tie within the division is essentially going to the team with the best div record. Playoff ties are totally different. NFL may use the word head to head, but it is incorrect by definition. It should merely read "(best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs)."

I guess I just think it's ok to say H2H for more than 2 teams...

 

[belljr]

You really need to define H2H sweep or record -

How I do my tiebreakers, I pretty much just modified the NFL

Division tiebreaker 2 teams:

1 - Head to Head

2 Division Record

3. Points

4. Breakdown Record

5. Point Differential

6. Coin FLip

3 +teams:

Note (If 2 clubs remained tied after third or other clubs are eliminated,tie breaker reverts back to step 1 of the appropriate tie breaker (2 or 3+ teams)

1.H2H - best won lost percentage among games played

2. Divison record

3. Points

4. Breakdown record

5. Point Differential

6. Die roll

WILDCARD

2 clubs:

1. H2h

2. Total Points

3. Mercator (All play record)

4. Point Differential

5. Coin FLip

3 or more clubs:

Note (If 2 clubs remained tied after third or other clubs are eliminated,tie breaker reverts back to step 1 of the appropriate tie breaker (2 or 3+ teams)

1. APPLY DIVISON TIEBREAKERS FIRST. The decided division order reamins the same for all wild card tiebreaking

2. H2h SWEEP

3. Total Points

4. Mercator

5. Point Differential

6. Die Roll

OTHER notes.

Only 1 club advances in any step. Remaining clubs tied revert back to step 1 of the applicapble procedure.

Last year was the first year EVER I had to advance past totatl points, yes we had a tie

 

[imagroid]

Concentrate less on the TB used to name the division champion and more on the one that decides playoff teams.

 

[sho nuff]

NFL takes head to head as the best won/loss/tied percentage among the teams involved in a 3 way tie.

Team B gets in being 3-1 vs the others being 2-2 and 1-3 in games among the teams involved.

 

[imagroid]

NFL takes head to head as the best won/loss/tied percentage among the teams involved in a 3 way tie.Team B gets in being 3-1 vs the others being 2-2 and 1-3 in games among the teams involved.

'Only to determine a division champion. Wild card is different. It's h2h sweep. Maybe we should all just forget the NFL policy because it doesn't really matter.

 

[Wild Young Billy]

every year like clockworkEliminate h2h as a tiebreaker people.

Total points is our 2nd TB after overall record. We go out 2 decimal places in our scoring. It really minimizes the possibility of a tie.

 

[John 14:6]

NFL takes head to head as the best won/loss/tied percentage among the teams involved in a 3 way tie.

Team B gets in being 3-1 vs the others being 2-2 and 1-3 in games among the teams involved.

'Only to determine a division champion. Wild card is different. It's h2h sweep.

Maybe we should all just forget the NFL policy because it doesn't really matter.

We have to define head-to-head. I'm guessing you got your definition from a dictionary and it says two teams. The NFL states it can be more than two teams. That's important in breaking the tie discussed here...ETA: From dictionary.com:

head-to-head   /ˈhɛdtəˈhɛd/ Show Spelled

[hed-tuh-hed] Show IPA

–adjective

in direct confrontation, opposition, or competition: a head-to-head battle between the two companies.

Use head to head in a Sentence

See images of head to head

Search head to head on the Web

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:

1790–1800

It uses "two" in the EXAMPLE, but not in the definition...

 

[spodog]

A commish question.

Here is our tiebreaker criteria for playoff entry.

1. W/L record

2. HTH record

3. Overall points

Here is the scenario, let's say 3 teams with same w/l records contend for just one playoff spot. Every team has played each other twice during the season.

Team A lost to team B twice and split with team C. Leads in overall points over team B and team C.

Team B beat team A twice and split with team C. Remains behind Team A and Team C in overall points.

Team C split with team A and split with team B. Remains behind Team A and is ahead of team C in overall points.

What team should make the playoff based on this criteria?

Given what you posted above and taking nothing else into account (i.e., what you really should do, current rules notwithstanding), you look at HTH among the group first. Within the group;

A is 1-3

B is 3-1

C is 2-2

Therefore, your order of finish is B, C, A. Points do not get factored in. It's pretty clear that unless you have omitted something, this is the only way the issue can be decided per your current rules.

If your league rules don't define exactly what "H2H" means, then what is stated here is exactly correct. You have to declare Team B as the winner of the initial tiebreaker step since Team B is tied with both Team A and Team C. The records amongst games played between all of these teams has to be evaluated since they all have identical W/L records. Our league had a big debate yet again this past spring related to this topic, and we have typically kept H2H much lower in the tiebreaker sequences, and this is one of the reasons, as there isn't a universally understood way to apply it. If DIVISION RECORD is used as a tiebreaker for crowning a DIVISION champ, there is pretty much universal agreement as to what it means . . . . your W/L record against DIV opponents.

 

[belljr]

NFL takes head to head as the best won/loss/tied percentage among the teams involved in a 3 way tie.Team B gets in being 3-1 vs the others being 2-2 and 1-3 in games among the teams involved.

'Only to determine a division champion. Wild card is different. It's h2h sweep. Maybe we should all just forget the NFL policy because it doesn't really matter.

Sure it does, pending how you set it up.If it's for the willdcard spot - you first do division tie breakers for the wildcard. Then h2h sweep which I agree if they are 3 teams trying for the spot in 3 different divisons.

 

[imagroid]

John, they used two as an example, because head to head is defined as two. Wiki it. Google it. It's 2. NFL doesn't define words, they just (in this case) use them inappropriately. It should read 1. (best win/loss/tie percentage in games among clubs) The use of the word head to head in that instance is superfluous and ultimately incorrect.

 

[imagroid]

NFL takes head to head as the best won/loss/tied percentage among the teams involved in a 3 way tie.Team B gets in being 3-1 vs the others being 2-2 and 1-3 in games among the teams involved.

'Only to determine a division champion. Wild card is different. It's h2h sweep. Maybe we should all just forget the NFL policy because it doesn't really matter.

Sure it does, pending how you set it up.If it's for the willdcard spot - you first do division tie breakers for the wildcard. Then h2h sweep which I agree if they are 3 teams trying for the spot in 3 different divisons.

It only matters if, in the rules, you state that you defer to NFL tie breaker policy.

 

[belljr]

John, they used two as an example, because head to head is defined as two. Wiki it. Google it. It's 2. NFL doesn't define words, they just (in this case) use them inappropriately. It should read 1. (best win/loss/tie percentage in games among clubs) The use of the word head to head in that instance is superfluous and ultimately incorrect.

They do - it depends if you are doing division or wildcard.per nfl division 2 teamsHead-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs). division 3 teamsHead-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).wildcard 2 teamsHead-to-head, if applicable. wildcard 3 teamsApply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.) People forget this to apply the divison tiebreaker first usually OR follow this stepIf it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken.If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps. It really depends on what you want to do. You can use H2h record OR h2h sweep depending on how and where you are in the procedureI agree with your post above, that's why I posted mine as that's what I follow