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Tim Tebow - 8.17.21 Waived By Jacksonville (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Finless
- Start date
FavreCo
Footballguy
I said that is what the need to do if they want to succeed with The Tebow. I didn't say they were doing that but it appears that you see things that aren't there both in this thread and on the field. You are consistent.I'm sure that's what they're doing. They're going to stick with Tebow and hope to build one of the best defenses of all time.You're the best.
Right now, you are Thomas Hearns on the ropes and I'm Marvin Hagler dishing out the beatdown of a lifetime. 
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shnikies
Footballguy
I said that is what the need to do if they want to succeed with The Tebow. I didn't say they were doing that but it appears that you see things that aren't there both in this thread and on the field. You are consistent.I'm sure that's what they're doing. They're going to stick with Tebow and hope to build one of the best defenses of all time.
I love your delusions. They're comedy gold.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I can't say I was surprised that Tebow played like he did today. When I heard early today that he had never played in a game as cold as it was gonna be in Buffalo, I was like, uh oh. Definitely a setback, but considering he is still essentially a rookie starter, not that surprising.
Ultimately, tonight's loss was irrelevant. They win next week against the Chiefs, and they are in, which was the case before today, so it's all good. Unless they lose next week.
Ultimately, tonight's loss was irrelevant. They win next week against the Chiefs, and they are in, which was the case before today, so it's all good. Unless they lose next week.
Chaka
Footballguy
You are still making the mistake of thinking that Tebow is getting all this press because of what he has accomplished in the NFL. The SP is definitely the place to discuss the relative merits of Tebow v Skelton in the NFL but if you want to talk about why Tebow gets all the press we should probably take it to the FFA.
Chaka
Footballguy
It was on him. It wasn't Decker who put up 14 points for the Bills. You can only break out the "It's the WRs fault" so many times before people start to focus on the guy who is trying to get the balls to the WRs.
munchkin
Footballguy
If you're implying that today's game was the WRs fault you either a) didn't watch the game or b) are just kidding yourself. Also, I just rewatched the game and there were only three legit drops. Any other one's I saw were questionable (at best) as to whether they were catchable balls or not.
I don't post in here much but I keep up on the thread. Between the blind love/hate that is going on with many people there are some good points here and there. It's amusing to watch Tebow have a pretty good game and see the "lovers" pour out of the woodwork and proclaim that he can make every throw that he needs to because he completed one or two in the last game. Conversely the same thing happens when he has a bad game except it goes the other way.
I'm still sticking with what I said a month ago: I'm not a "Tebow" fan - I'm a Bronco fan. I pull for Tebow because he's our QB. I see a Broncos team that can beat below average to crappy teams. That's good in that we can beat teams that we are "supposed" to beat. It means that we're not one of those crappy teams. But we're not a good team yet. One of the reasons we're not is because our QB play is too inconsistant. It's not by any means the only reason but I'd be lying to myself, as a Bronco fan, if I didn't look at the big picture regarding Tebow.
I've always ignored the posters who say "he just wins". He never "just won". Our team won - with him at the QB position. Luckily I don't wear Tebow-colored glasses and I realized that we were "just winning" against some teams that couldn't even spell "offense" - much less play it. I saw some incredible plays by our defense to keep it close till the 4th quarter. I saw some amazing plays by our Special Teams to keep us in the game or even win it for us. I saw Tebow stay incredibly cool under pressure and make some amazing plays in crunch time. I saw a Broncos team - my team - where most of the breaks were going our way. I knew, and still know, that this isn't the way to win consistantly. Just because he makes one out-route throw does not mean that he can consistantly make that throw. Just because he misses it doesn't mean he can't learn to make it eventually.
The thing I'm seeing with Tebow is that he makes some good throws here and there but his biggest value to our team is his ability to keep the play alive and the threat of him running. Both of those keep the opposing defense guessing and that opens up throwing lanes, creates single coverage on our WRs and allows us to have better-than-average opportunities in our passing game. When our team is forced to throw, though, then we get in trouble most of the time. It seems that for every good throw Tebow makes he has 3 to 4 really (really) bad ones. If we want to win we have to be able to throw better. Pull out all the statistics you want. For Tebow or against him - stats don't make him a good or bad QB. I see some other rookie QBs - and if you actually watch them and don't just look at the stats after the game - then you see glimpses of great passing during the game. I watch Tebow and see glimpses of great runs by a QB. He does things I've never seen before at the QB position. He'll make me ecstatic one play and then cry the next.
I know this won't be popular amongst the Tebow-lovers but I think the Broncos need to draft a QB early in the draft. I'm not saying Tebow won't get better next year. I hope he does. If he can improve his passing then he could be a GREAT quaterback. I also don't think that a healthy competition at the QB position is a bad thing. I just don't see him improving enough for us to beat the better teams in the league, though.
I could be wrong. And trust me - I HOPE I am
As a Patriots fan fortunate enough to live in Colorado the above posting captures the essence of the beliefs of most rational Broncos' fans I talk to. Tebow's play has certainly given them something to cheer about this season. But so has the play of Von Miller, Willis McGahee, Elvis Dumervile and Demaryius Moore. Al Davis's "just win baby" mantra is nice but as with Tebow's "he is a winner" moniker, it falls flat when the overall pieces aren't in place for either to ring true. Tebow wasn't winning on his own up until these past two weeks, though it did make for a nice feel good story.
Tebow's counterpart in yesterday's game, Fitzpatrick, parlayed his, and the team's early season success into a new long term contract. That story fell on deaf ears as injuries mounted and the supporting staff weakened. Andy Dalton, of late, has looked more like a rookie as the competition stiffened.
Kansas City can beat the Broncos. Their defense is pretty good. This story is far from over.
I don't post in here much but I keep up on the thread. Between the blind love/hate that is going on with many people there are some good points here and there. It's amusing to watch Tebow have a pretty good game and see the "lovers" pour out of the woodwork and proclaim that he can make every throw that he needs to because he completed one or two in the last game. Conversely the same thing happens when he has a bad game except it goes the other way.
I'm still sticking with what I said a month ago: I'm not a "Tebow" fan - I'm a Bronco fan. I pull for Tebow because he's our QB. I see a Broncos team that can beat below average to crappy teams. That's good in that we can beat teams that we are "supposed" to beat. It means that we're not one of those crappy teams. But we're not a good team yet. One of the reasons we're not is because our QB play is too inconsistant. It's not by any means the only reason but I'd be lying to myself, as a Bronco fan, if I didn't look at the big picture regarding Tebow.
I've always ignored the posters who say "he just wins". He never "just won". Our team won - with him at the QB position. Luckily I don't wear Tebow-colored glasses and I realized that we were "just winning" against some teams that couldn't even spell "offense" - much less play it. I saw some incredible plays by our defense to keep it close till the 4th quarter. I saw some amazing plays by our Special Teams to keep us in the game or even win it for us. I saw Tebow stay incredibly cool under pressure and make some amazing plays in crunch time. I saw a Broncos team - my team - where most of the breaks were going our way. I knew, and still know, that this isn't the way to win consistantly. Just because he makes one out-route throw does not mean that he can consistantly make that throw. Just because he misses it doesn't mean he can't learn to make it eventually.
The thing I'm seeing with Tebow is that he makes some good throws here and there but his biggest value to our team is his ability to keep the play alive and the threat of him running. Both of those keep the opposing defense guessing and that opens up throwing lanes, creates single coverage on our WRs and allows us to have better-than-average opportunities in our passing game. When our team is forced to throw, though, then we get in trouble most of the time. It seems that for every good throw Tebow makes he has 3 to 4 really (really) bad ones. If we want to win we have to be able to throw better. Pull out all the statistics you want. For Tebow or against him - stats don't make him a good or bad QB. I see some other rookie QBs - and if you actually watch them and don't just look at the stats after the game - then you see glimpses of great passing during the game. I watch Tebow and see glimpses of great runs by a QB. He does things I've never seen before at the QB position. He'll make me ecstatic one play and then cry the next.
I know this won't be popular amongst the Tebow-lovers but I think the Broncos need to draft a QB early in the draft. I'm not saying Tebow won't get better next year. I hope he does. If he can improve his passing then he could be a GREAT quaterback. I also don't think that a healthy competition at the QB position is a bad thing. I just don't see him improving enough for us to beat the better teams in the league, though.
I could be wrong. And trust me - I HOPE I am
As a Patriots fan fortunate enough to live in Colorado the above posting captures the essence of the beliefs of most rational Broncos' fans I talk to. Tebow's play has certainly given them something to cheer about this season. But so has the play of Von Miller, Willis McGahee, Elvis Dumervile and Demaryius Moore. Al Davis's "just win baby" mantra is nice but as with Tebow's "he is a winner" moniker, it falls flat when the overall pieces aren't in place for either to ring true. Tebow wasn't winning on his own up until these past two weeks, though it did make for a nice feel good story.
Tebow's counterpart in yesterday's game, Fitzpatrick, parlayed his, and the team's early season success into a new long term contract. That story fell on deaf ears as injuries mounted and the supporting staff weakened. Andy Dalton, of late, has looked more like a rookie as the competition stiffened.
Kansas City can beat the Broncos. Their defense is pretty good. This story is far from over.
Chaka
Footballguy
It doesn't mean he sucks any more than the six straight wins means he's the real deal.People need to stop with these hyperbolic overreactions.
grateful zed
Footballguy
I think it's just that Jesus is a little busy this weekend, what with the birthday party and all.
shnikies
Footballguy
That's all this thread is. He's horrible! He's amazing! Can't he be a quarterback with 13 starts under his belt that's shown flashes of potential as well as made plenty of mistakes? So many irrational people. Unreal.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
Excellent post. It's amazing how hyper-critical people are for a guy who hasn't started a season's worth of games yet. Peyton was 3-13 his first season. Cam might go 7-9. The guy who will decide Tebow's fate threw seven TDs vs 14 INTs his first season. Guys like Ryan Leaf and JaMarcus Russell got a lot more slack than Tebow is getting.Now, Tebow might end up being the worst our of all of them. But this far into his career, have you seen anything to show he has what it takes to succeed in the NFL? Any spark of leadership or poise or talent? Anything about his game that makes him look like a guy who can win games? After so few starts, that's the real standard.And by that standard, there's no question Tebow should be the team's starter for at least a full season or maybe two. Maybe give him professional football receivers instead of trading them away. Give the guy a chance and judge him like you would any othr first-round quarterback.I'm not a fan of Tebow's or the Broncos. But by setting the bar so high for no reason, his critics are saying he's special and should be on a pedestal. Treat him like any other QB taken in the first round.
I think it's the mechanics and throwing ability that have people concerned. his motion is just not sustainable for a NFL QB. it takes absolutely forever to get it going and he holds the ball way too long in the first place. slow decision making and maybe the slowest release of any current NFL QB (maybe Leftwich) coupled with poor accuracy mean that he absolutely has to change something for him to become a startable QB even with all the intangibles. we knew this and he knew this coming into the draft, that's why there was such a big deal about Tebow 2.0 and him working with coaches on shortening his motion, the TV show about him was all about shortening his motion. and now, it looks very similar to what it was in college. Rodgers totally changed his motion, is Tebow willing to put in the work to change his? I think that's the only way he will make it. his work ethic is legendary I am just not sure why he reverts to his college motion now
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
A young QB had a bad game, it happens. Heck, all QBs young and old have bad games. Brady threw 4 picks against that same defense this year too.
On to the next topic, can we get an Eric Decker hate-club that's on par with the Tebow-hater club? That ball-skilless clown makes 50% of the easy plays and 0% of the hard ones.
On to the next topic, can we get an Eric Decker hate-club that's on par with the Tebow-hater club? That ball-skilless clown makes 50% of the easy plays and 0% of the hard ones.
shnikies
Footballguy
I'd like to be on the board of the Eric Decker Hate Club. The guy's a joke. He plays like a woman's private part. There are some people I love watching play and some I hate. Decker is at the top of the latter's list.A young QB had a bad game, it happens. Heck, all QBs young and old have bad games. Brady threw 4 picks against that same defense this year ton to the next topic, can we get an Eric Decker hate-club that's on par with the Tebow-hater club? That ball-skilless clown makes 50% of the easy plays and 0% of the hard ones.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
Not all "bad games" are equal. Brady threw 4 picks against Buffalo but he also had 4 TDs, 387 yards, and an 86.1 passer rating, and he only lost the game on a last-second field goal. Tim Tebow dreams he had a game like that yesterday.
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
ivnabru
Footballguy
Of all the games to absolutely look like trash Tebow picked the right time.
It's at a point in the year where he won't be benched (he was close after Detroit). It's a game that makes absolutely no difference in conference standings although it did kill the Broncos in the wildcard chase. And now if Denver can beat KC or SD can beat Oakland the Broncos win the division. They're still in a pretty good position.
I'm actually interested to see what happens against KC. Until this game Tebow was looking progressively better each week.
It's at a point in the year where he won't be benched (he was close after Detroit). It's a game that makes absolutely no difference in conference standings although it did kill the Broncos in the wildcard chase. And now if Denver can beat KC or SD can beat Oakland the Broncos win the division. They're still in a pretty good position.
I'm actually interested to see what happens against KC. Until this game Tebow was looking progressively better each week.
PolishNorbi
Footballguy
Seems like a couple years ago all over again for Bronco fans. Last time it was 3 games left, just need to win one game and they were in. Of course, they lose all three.
Disc Shark
Footballguy
Don't know how this got pushed back to the second page. Seems like after all of Timmy's victories, it was at the top of page one.
Saturday's pitiful performance is what I expected of Tebow from the start, so we have to wait longer to see if the Miracle Tebow or the Pitiful Tebow is the real one.
I am relishing the thought of Kyle Orton knocking the Bronco's out of the playoffs. Should be a close game, which this year (with Tebow at the helm) has favored the Broncos.
Saturday's pitiful performance is what I expected of Tebow from the start, so we have to wait longer to see if the Miracle Tebow or the Pitiful Tebow is the real one.
I am relishing the thought of Kyle Orton knocking the Bronco's out of the playoffs. Should be a close game, which this year (with Tebow at the helm) has favored the Broncos.
shnikies
Footballguy
Elway was at 47.5% his rookie year on 259 attempts.
shnikies
Footballguy
Randy Johnson 43.7% 297 attemptsAkili Smith 44.2%Joe Pisarcik 47.5%
FavreCo
Footballguy
It's somewhere in between. There was a discussion today on ESPN about the Jets wondering if Sanchez is the franchise qb that can take them to the Superbowl. Tebow will eventually be in a similar discussion again once the fluke wins wear off. This is a league where you better be able to put up big points. SF will find out come playoff time.Also Skip Baseless was owned today as he tried to blame the defense because 'they put The Tebow in 4th Q's where they are always behind'. It used to be glorious come from behind wins, not it's a 'let's blame the defense' when the Broncos can't pull #### out of their asses. He was screaming 'where's Von Miller'? Then he added that The Tebow only threw 1 bad pass vs Buffalo.'Disc Shark said:
Sea Duck
Footballguy
Actually, it was the previous poster who tried to compare a Hall of Famer to Tim Tebow. I just set the record straight a bit.
shnikies
Footballguy
He didn't compare Tebow to Brady. He said "Brady threw 4 picks against the same defense" which is a fact.
OC Zed
Footballguy
It should be noted that Elway was throwing in a league that wasn't nearly as friendly towards quarterbacks and the passing game. The league stats generally bear this out:1983 QB Leader Stats
2011 QB Leader Stats
Elway was also running a more complex, pro-style offense which would understandably lower his completion percentage.
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moleculo
Footballguy
I think a better way to compare to Brady is to highlight that Brady also had a 4 int game in his first season starting.
Hoss Style
Footballguy
Not sure if the people bringing up Elway are old enough to remember watching him - but Elway would make throws every game that would make you say "Holy S###, he's gonna be good!". A lot of fans, similar to many fans cheering/booing Tebow, didn't like him because they only looked at immediate results with no regard for the future. Elway would make throws across his chest, to the other side of the field, while being chased by a few linemen or LBs and the pass would look like it was following a laser sight to the WR 40 yards away. Yes, Elway had a low percentage his first year but he was trying to make throws that other QBs weren't even attempting - and he was still completing almost 50% of them. He hadn't learned to put a nice touch on the ball, yet. He also hadn't adjusted to the NFL level of play. Throws he was making in college against sub-par DBs weren't working in the pros against much better defenses. Still, when he completed them they made you say "How'd he do that?" sometimes.
Tebow amazes sometimes, as well, but with his runs. The problem is that he's a QB and not a RB. This worries me. But we'll see if he can make the improvements needed this offseason to at least become an effective passer to balance out his runs. He's willing to try - which is encouraging. We'll see.
Tebow amazes sometimes, as well, but with his runs. The problem is that he's a QB and not a RB. This worries me. But we'll see if he can make the improvements needed this offseason to at least become an effective passer to balance out his runs. He's willing to try - which is encouraging. We'll see.
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Sea Duck
Footballguy
Fact: Brady's 4 picks came on 45 attemptsFact: Tebow's 4 picks came on 30 attempts
Fact: in that same game, Brady was sacked 0 times and had 0 fumbles.
Fact: in that same game, Tebow was sacked 3 times and had 1 fumble.
Not that I'm making comparisons. Just stating facts, you know.
OC Zed
Footballguy
shnikies
Footballguy
Cool.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
In a way I think these two losses make the Tebow discussion even more fascinating. With that win streak, it was to the point where seemingly NO ONE was talking fundamentals, and it came down to:
*** If you like Tebow = "All he does in WIN, I told you so"
*** If you were doubtful about Tebow = "You're just a hater, dug in on your preseason opinion"
Now that he's lost a few, I think we're starting to see a bit more discussion and debate again about just what this kid is. I'll admit that NOTHING frustrates me more than the concept of "intangibles" as it relates to debating performance. I hear lots of people dismiss things like stats or box scores, say they study film and believe the tape, and then cite "intangibles" as a reason they like or dislike someone.
By definition intangibles can't be seen.
Ultimately, I think John Elway has an easier time now that Tebow isn't taking a three month win streak into an AFC West title. The momentum would've been so strong, Elway would've had next to no choice but to back the kid in a big way. Now? I think he'll be smart and hedge his bets. The odds are certainly that Tebow starts the preseason as #1 and gets every opportunity to keep and cement his role, but I could see Elway using a fairly high pick on a QB he really likes, too. Just in case.
*** If you like Tebow = "All he does in WIN, I told you so"
*** If you were doubtful about Tebow = "You're just a hater, dug in on your preseason opinion"
Now that he's lost a few, I think we're starting to see a bit more discussion and debate again about just what this kid is. I'll admit that NOTHING frustrates me more than the concept of "intangibles" as it relates to debating performance. I hear lots of people dismiss things like stats or box scores, say they study film and believe the tape, and then cite "intangibles" as a reason they like or dislike someone.
By definition intangibles can't be seen.
Ultimately, I think John Elway has an easier time now that Tebow isn't taking a three month win streak into an AFC West title. The momentum would've been so strong, Elway would've had next to no choice but to back the kid in a big way. Now? I think he'll be smart and hedge his bets. The odds are certainly that Tebow starts the preseason as #1 and gets every opportunity to keep and cement his role, but I could see Elway using a fairly high pick on a QB he really likes, too. Just in case.
ivnabru
Footballguy
I'm curious why when we discuss Tebow Completion Percentage is the most important QB statistic?Shouldn't QB Rating be more important?Shouldn't YPA be as important if not more?What about TD/INTs?Total Yds?I have fun watching Tebow, can't say I think he'll be a starter in 5 years. But I think he'll most likely start next season. He's still young so I don't think we really know if he has the chops to be a good QB or not. But I have no idea why Completion percentage became such an important stat. It's like looking at a baseball player and ignoring batting average, HRs, OBP and saying look at his strikeouts per 100 at bats and acting like that's suddenly the only way to measure performance.
squistion
Footballguy
Well, of course not, and while they shouldn't be used to dismiss stats or box scores, one shouldn't go to the other extreme and dismiss them entirely either (as perhaps you are suggesting and I apologize if I am mischaracterizing your position). Success in the NFL and future fantasy production can not always be predicted with 100% accuracy based on numbers alone, not everything can be quantified IMO. Those of us who are not quite as linear in our thinking and consider intangibles seem to have as good a success rate over a period of years in our leagues as the number crunchers (who tend to think that stats mean everything and intangibles should not be part of the discussion). Not saying you don't have a valid point, just mentioning that there is another perspective.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I'm not saying your wrong that one stat hardly tells the tale, but it's not like the other stats serve in support of Tebow either:*** He's 25th in passer rating this year (BUT, is higher than Freeman, McCoy, Ponder, Bradford, Skelton and Gabbert)*** He's 22nd in yards per attempt*** I don't pay attention to ESPN's QBR rating (in spite of them wanting to shove it down our throats) but IIRC, Tebow is very very low in thatOn the other hand, he does lead the league in yards per completion, yards per rush, and is a respectable 7th in TD%.
ivnabru
Footballguy
His stats overall are not great. But I think Completion Percentage is one of the least important stats to judge a QB.The #1 all time? Chad Pennington.The problem with completion percentage is it has a lot to do with the offense being run. Tebow throws a million deep passes, that hurts his completion percentage.
moleculo
Footballguy
to be fair, there's some chicken-egg going on with that, IMO. The playcalling is as it is to maximize his strengths - the deep ball. He struggles with the mid-range stuff, so they don't call it all that often.
ivnabru
Footballguy
True and in his earlier starts it was even more pronounced because they were trying to protect him.That being said, I'm really just talking about the completion percentage argument that has become so popular instead of looking at all the stats.Is a 3/12 game with 112 yds and a TD much worse than a 9/12 game with 112 yds and a TD? Sure maybe a bit worse, but the 3/12 line is still a pretty efficient game.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Again, any focus on one stat is misguided.But it's not as though completion percentage isn't a useful stat (not as a sole indicator, mind you). If you think about the evolution of the NFL into a pass heavy attack, and the people who are considered the best passers to ever play the game, completing a high percentage is one of the top goals for the QB AND his coaching staff. Completed passes are positive plays, they sustain drives, keep the clock moving, and ultimately keep the rest of the offensive machine rolling.Does that mean you have to have an uber high rate to be great? No, not necessarily. But there is a certain level that equates to functional on a consistent basis. I'm not sure what that level is, but I know it's higher than 48%.
That is not entirely true - in the 3-12 line he failed to move the ball 9 times In the 9-12 line he probably moved the offense, got some first downs, ate time off the clock, rested the defense, etc.
ivnabru
Footballguy
I said it was a bit worse although in some situations that 3/12 line probably worked out pretty well. Most likely they got in scoring position twice unless it was like Eli's line against the Jets and all the yardage was on 1 play. But in reality we're looking at a difference of about 15% at most not 50 percentage points like my example. That's 15% from the top tier. On 12 pass attempts it would be more like 6/12 for Tebow against 7/12 for a middle QB and 8/12 for a great.
Funny; he was lighting it up when Orton was in there.'shnikies said:I'd like to be on the board of the Eric Decker Hate Club. The guy's a joke. He plays like a woman's private part. There are some people I love watching play and some I hate. Decker is at the top of the latter's list.'FreeBaGeL said:A young QB had a bad game, it happens. Heck, all QBs young and old have bad games. Brady threw 4 picks against that same defense this year to
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Let's be fair about this both ways. Didn't they throw up a stat during the Buffalo game that Tebow's yards per completion were 1st in the NFL? I just did a quick check on Rodgers/Brady/Brees and he's beating all of them. I know that, in his 3 starts last year his yards per completion would have set an NFL record if he'd had enough attempts.That's not to say anything good about that stat, but just to say that it seems a bit silly to say we should disregard Elway's low completion pct because he was making difficult throws when such a high percentage of Tebow's attempts are difficult, low percentage vertical passes. How many times has Denver run a simple little naked bootleg this year where all the QB has to do is dump it off to the TE who's 2 yards away? Once all year maybe, compared to most teams that do it 2-3 times per game?
You could say the same thing about Elway, as it's not only his completion percentage that was similar to Tebow's but also his yards per completion, which was identical. Of course that worked out pretty well for Elway...
