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Tim Tebow a Revolutionary? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Matt Waldman
- Start date
Hue G
Footballguy
Maybe someone of his ilk could be if they could throw the ball just a little bit better, or it's also possible that Tebow improves on this a little bit. The problem is that I really don't see a Tim Tebow led team beating very many high scoring teams with offenses like Packers or Patriots, there's just no way they could keep up. A guy like Tebow may be a serviceable NFL QB but he'll never be as effective as great passers like Rodgers, Brady, Brees etc. So I guess my answer is no, to be revolutionary basically would mean that other NFL teams would seek out Tebow prototypes and I just don't see teams trying to develop QBs into a player like Tebow over top passers. Ask any NFL GM whether they'd rather have Andrew Luck or Tim Tebow on their team next year, I don't think you'd get too many picking Tebow and Luck hasn't even played an NFL snap yet.
FavreCo
Footballguy
Let me add that while the number of QB's that have the passing ability of Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, etc. is low, the number of players fitting Tebow's skill set is even lower. The only way this ever takes off is if he were to win it all and the copycat league started looking for guys like this.
Right now he is a Vince Young who throws less.
He has yet to get jacked up but if they keep this style, he will. They all do. Imagine you gear your whole offense towards this style of play and then he gets KO'ed. Do you have 2 sets of playbooks? 1 for your novelty and one for your traditional QB? Do you tell your backup, who doesn't look like a LB, hey go do the same thing?
Right now he is a Vince Young who throws less.
He has yet to get jacked up but if they keep this style, he will. They all do. Imagine you gear your whole offense towards this style of play and then he gets KO'ed. Do you have 2 sets of playbooks? 1 for your novelty and one for your traditional QB? Do you tell your backup, who doesn't look like a LB, hey go do the same thing?
Couch Potato
Footballguy
He's not a quarterback, he's a gimmick with running ability. The fact that he has the love of fantasy owners because of his rushing numbers has nothing to do with whether he can play QB, and the only reason he's been in position to make late game comebacks is that his defense kept him in games despite his dreadful quarterbacking for 50 minutes.
As a quarterback, Tim Tebow sucks and will always suck.
As a quarterback, Tim Tebow sucks and will always suck.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
great article matt - well thought out and unbiased. you show us where we really stand on both sides of the love/hate phenomenon that's going on... no one knows how long this will last or if he'll succeed, because what he's doing has never been done before and it's changing the way we look at the qb position. 
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thehornet
Footballguy
there's no love hate about this situation. even if you love this guy, you cant possibly think hes a good qb. hes won a couple games. wow. it's the defense, not him.great article matt - well thought out and unbiased. you show us where we really stand on both sides of the love/hate phenomenon that's going on... no one knows how long this will last or if he'll succeed, because what he's doing has never been done before and it's changing the way we look at the qb position.
Couch Potato
Footballguy
He's not as good a runner as Mike Vick is (or was, younger). There have been lots of running QBs, good and great QBs, who could run. Tebow isn't changing anything. His ability to run isn't unique. He's just the latest and has the spotlight now, and truthfully he's getting MORE attention because he's such a horrible passer. Tarkenton was a better runner, Steve Young was a better runner. There have been many others. They just weren't 240 pound fullbacks disguising as QBs, forcing the media to focus solely on the running. They actually could play QB and didn't have to rely on the run 95% of the time because of awful passing ability..'werdnoynek said:great article matt - well thought out and unbiased. you show us where we really stand on both sides of the love/hate phenomenon that's going on... no one knows how long this will last or if he'll succeed, because what he's doing has never been done before and it's changing the way we look at the qb position.
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cdwood
Footballguy
Sure there is, you hate him for 55 minutes when he can't do squat and love him for the last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter when he leads his team for a comeback victory, ie @ Miami, vs NY Jets. You can't help but get caught up in the drama of what is unfolding before your eyes.'thehornet said:there's no love hate about this situation. even if you love this guy, you cant possibly think hes a good qb. hes won a couple games. wow. it's the defense, not him.'werdnoynek said:great article matt - well thought out and unbiased. you show us where we really stand on both sides of the love/hate phenomenon that's going on... no one knows how long this will last or if he'll succeed, because what he's doing has never been done before and it's changing the way we look at the qb position.
two_dollars
Footballguy
werdnoynek
Footballguy
'thehornet said:there's no love hate about this situation. even if you love this guy, you cant possibly think hes a good qb. hes won a couple games. wow. it's the defense, not him.'werdnoynek said:great article matt - well thought out and unbiased. you show us where we really stand on both sides of the love/hate phenomenon that's going on... no one knows how long this will last or if he'll succeed, because what he's doing has never been done before and it's changing the way we look at the qb position.
well we know where you stand. thanks! are you sure there's no love hate?
werdnoynek
Footballguy
you say he isn't changing anything and then you continue with he can't pass and the it's never been done before argument... think about that for a second.ETA: i think i need to elaborate. you say he cant play QB, but he is and he's doing it successfully. so he's changing the way we think about quarterbacks because he's successfully isn't playing "QB".He's not as good a runner as Mike Vick is (or was, younger). There have been lots of running QBs, good and great QBs, who could run. Tebow isn't changing anything. His ability to run isn't unique. He's just the latest and has the spotlight now, and truthfully he's getting MORE attention because he's such a horrible passer. Tarkenton was a better runner, Steve Young was a better runner. There have been many others. They just weren't 240 pound fullbacks disguising as QBs, forcing the media to focus solely on the running. They actually could play QB.'werdnoynek said:great article matt - well thought out and unbiased. you show us where we really stand on both sides of the love/hate phenomenon that's going on... no one knows how long this will last or if he'll succeed, because what he's doing has never been done before and it's changing the way we look at the qb position.
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netnalp
Footballguy
Tebow hype seems like the hype the Wildcat offense had. It seemed like there was a fanatical fan-base for the Wildcat that made claims that it was going to revolutionize the NFL and be the dominant offensive scheme. Tebow is a younger version of what Doug Flutie was when he came back to the NFL with the Bills.
FavreCo
Footballguy
'Couch Potato said:
'thehornet said:
Thanks guys (I am none of these guys). You covered his horrid QB skills (he's a RB playing QB), the defense (which is getting better every week), winning like Young did at one time and his fantasy value which in redraft is not bad. He should put up #'s next week vs SD. I have their FF Defense and I am not impressed.btw, he's only changing the way Denver plays, nobody else. It didn't work for Young, Vick, and every other running QB. Eventually someone will come up with the scheme that shuts this #### down. NY just screwed up like Miami in the end. If it was so great, they would take the ball down the field every series and put points on the board.The hype is just like the wildcat hype. Miami lived off that successfully until it was defensed properly, then it disappeared.'thehornet said:there's no love hate about this situation. even if you love this guy, you cant possibly think hes a good qb. hes won a couple games. wow. it's the defense, not him.'werdnoynek said:great article matt - well thought out and unbiased. you show us where we really stand on both sides of the love/hate phenomenon that's going on... no one knows how long this will last or if he'll succeed, because what he's doing has never been done before and it's changing the way we look at the qb position.
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Let's see what happens when he's played a few more games and defenses can really key on him and game plan around him. There have been guys in different sports who have a gimmick that works incredibly well for a short amount of time, but it catches up to them once teams get wise to it. Declaring him a revolutionary is a bit ridiculous, in my opinion. As Couch Potato points out, there have been other guys in this mold. They just didn't run quite as much because they were better QB's. Daunte Culpepper is probably the most similar in terms of build, but he was a far superior QB, at least for a couple of years. My prediction is that Tebow will have continued success for a little bit but he won't stick in the long term.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Great article.
6'2", 226 lbs. - Bronko Nagurski.
6'2", 236 lbs. - Tebow.
Nagurski was a fullback who threw the ball.
Yes, the DNA of football at its base core still allows for this. Did anyone notice Ryan had to relinquish defensive play calls to his defensive assistant who was the closest guy to having seen it last in the college ranks?
There are so, so many possibilities in the lineup and scrimmage formations that no one ever tries.
Necessity may be the mother of invention here, truly.
I hope he runs the table at this rate.
6'2", 226 lbs. - Bronko Nagurski.
6'2", 236 lbs. - Tebow.
Nagurski was a fullback who threw the ball.
Yes, the DNA of football at its base core still allows for this. Did anyone notice Ryan had to relinquish defensive play calls to his defensive assistant who was the closest guy to having seen it last in the college ranks?
There are so, so many possibilities in the lineup and scrimmage formations that no one ever tries.
Necessity may be the mother of invention here, truly.
I hope he runs the table at this rate.
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Couch Potato
Footballguy
I'm not continuing with anything of the sort. He can't pass, that's a fact. When I said he's getting more attention, I meant media attention. He's a starting QB solely to placate the wacko fan base, and at 1-4 the team said 'why the hell not, let's get this out of their system." They didn't count on the defense doing what they've done and TT having a couple of fluke drives after being totally horrendous the entire game. Honestly, anyone thinking this has any chance of continuing needs a reality check.you say he isn't changing anything and then you continue with he can't pass and the it's never been done before argument... think about that for a second.He's not as good a runner as Mike Vick is (or was, younger). There have been lots of running QBs, good and great QBs, who could run. Tebow isn't changing anything. His ability to run isn't unique. He's just the latest and has the spotlight now, and truthfully he's getting MORE attention because he's such a horrible passer. Tarkenton was a better runner, Steve Young was a better runner. There have been many others. They just weren't 240 pound fullbacks disguising as QBs, forcing the media to focus solely on the running. They actually could play QB.'werdnoynek said:great article matt - well thought out and unbiased. you show us where we really stand on both sides of the love/hate phenomenon that's going on... no one knows how long this will last or if he'll succeed, because what he's doing has never been done before and it's changing the way we look at the qb position.
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sports_fan
Footballguy
Another Tebow article with nothing new to say. Why am I still reading these things?
Josh FreemanHeight: 6-6 Weight: 248Eli ManningHeight: 6-4 Weight: 225Matt HasselbeckHeight: 6-4 Weight: 225Sam BradfordHeight: 6-4 Weight: 218Joe FlaccoHeight: 6-6 Weight: 245Ben RoethlisbergerHeight: 6-5 Weight: 241Blaine GabbertHeight: 6-5 Weight: 234Matt CasselHeight: 6-4 Weight: 225Carson PalmerHeight: 6-5 Weight: 235Philip RiversHeight: 6-5 Weight: 228Tom BradyHeight: 6-4 Weight: 225Jay CutlerHeight: 6-3 Weight: 233Matthew StaffordHeight: 6-2 Weight: 232Christian PonderHeight: 6-2 Weight: 229Matt RyanHeight: 6-4 Weight: 224Cam NewtonHeight: 6-5 Weight: 248John SkeltonHeight: 6-5 Weight: 243
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chinawildman
Footballguy
I think Tebow-ball is working for the time being because teams these days are built to stop the pass.
Not now, doubtful for the future. Young was similar as a rook and good luck winning at his rate that year.
Randall Cunningham was the best mobile QB ever. Good luck to Tebow being able to do this against Da Bears 4-6. LTs Giants or Manley's Redskins, and also outscoring Montana with Lott playing on D.
Randall Cunningham was the best mobile QB ever. Good luck to Tebow being able to do this against Da Bears 4-6. LTs Giants or Manley's Redskins, and also outscoring Montana with Lott playing on D.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Great article except that Tony Hawk wasn't a revolutionary skateboarder. He was a revolutionary marketer and businessman.
:skateordie:
:skateordie:
His football intelligence and the rate at which he digests a play and attacks it (ad-libbing) is phenomenal.
I thoroughly enjoyed BB and Peyton's battle as the young QB learned and BB tried to trick him with a new wrinkle the next game. As Peyton got older, Fisher and Schwartz employed a D where they didn't rush Peyton and just stayed home. They allowed tons of yards but few points. BB did this too against Peyton and commented on the concept back then. Peyton overcame that too.
Free agency and "new faces" created a lack of trust and thus discipline on defense in the NFL. Most teams couldn't stay home against Peyton today. I don't know how to stop Tebow, of course, but I am confident it involves discipline in some sort of similar vein.
Maybe we can ramble on with ideas.
One thing, the Tebow love is fun to see and the guy is the most polarizing sports figure ever. As is typical with football, his blockers get no love and they're due.
I thoroughly enjoyed BB and Peyton's battle as the young QB learned and BB tried to trick him with a new wrinkle the next game. As Peyton got older, Fisher and Schwartz employed a D where they didn't rush Peyton and just stayed home. They allowed tons of yards but few points. BB did this too against Peyton and commented on the concept back then. Peyton overcame that too.
Free agency and "new faces" created a lack of trust and thus discipline on defense in the NFL. Most teams couldn't stay home against Peyton today. I don't know how to stop Tebow, of course, but I am confident it involves discipline in some sort of similar vein.
Maybe we can ramble on with ideas.
One thing, the Tebow love is fun to see and the guy is the most polarizing sports figure ever. As is typical with football, his blockers get no love and they're due.
So in other words, a perfect comparison
Dizzy
Footballguy
Good call... I think Hawk was actually employed (early on) by one of the true revolutionary skateboarders.
kevjones22
Footballguy
People are blinded by emotion and irrational religious beliefs. He is a terrible QB and when he plays a good team this will be very obvious.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Or he will receive whatever the league mandated # of concussions before a forced retirement is handed down.
The Jets and Raiders are good teams. Looking at their remaining schedule, going 4-2 is not out of the question. And that would be good enough to win their division.
Run It Up
Footballguy
56 comp 125 att. scoreboard.
way over the top comparing a QB to Aung San Suu Kyi. After all that buildup I guess the point is Tebow can make his teammates become more immersed in the game and play harder.
first 5 games (no Tebow)=21 points a game
last 5 games (with Tebow and including a 38 point game)=20 points a game
defense first 5 games=28 ppg
defense last 5 games=21.4 ppg (including a 45 point game)
so simply looking at points scored he is not an offensive revolutionary on his own team. maybe he is having some unseen effect on his defense through their suspension of belief?
sorry for poking fun, I just think this is a bit too pretentious and not based on much
first 5 games (no Tebow)=21 points a game
last 5 games (with Tebow and including a 38 point game)=20 points a game
defense first 5 games=28 ppg
defense last 5 games=21.4 ppg (including a 45 point game)
so simply looking at points scored he is not an offensive revolutionary on his own team. maybe he is having some unseen effect on his defense through their suspension of belief?
sorry for poking fun, I just think this is a bit too pretentious and not based on much
mr roboto
Footballguy
Didn't know the passing stats went up on the scoreboard in the NFL. I do know they count wins and losses. Eat that.
bonesman
Footballguy
Who's done more revolutions than 900 degrees?
SWC
Bromigo
he is good but revolution will be when they finally start direct snapping to all sorts of players like tight ends and other lineman and throwing guys russian trapeeze style over the line for Tds and launching small players like missles at opposing ball carriers and the name of the game is gaget plays until then my friends its all just some guy trying to write an article that gets hits tkae it to the bank my bother
this is the first post in a long while I have laughed out loud at...great imagery
ConfusedRealist
Footballguy
You're thinking of a reactionary I believe.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Yeah your right, my bad forgot that QB are solely responsible for what an entire 53 man roster does on both sides of the ball.Oh wait, they have these things called statistics and you can actually measure how much a player contributes to the team and in regards to Timothy H.W. Christ Tebow, its very little.
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bmj87
Footballguy
I'm pretty sure the point of the entire thread and Waldman's article was that Tebow is changing the way people think about and consider traditional statistics that measure a successful NFL QB.
Tebow is changing the NFL game. I guess specifically HE is not changing the game but he is showing that a spread offense like he ran at Florida can be successful at the NFL level. I think the scheme is the most under-discussed part of this whole debate. He is a smart player and understands completely an offensive system that gives the offense the advantage on every play. Imagine if Vick had learned this offense instead of being forced to run a "pro style" offense.
Don't be surprised if in 10 yrs we are complaining about Quarterback by commitee becoming the new thing because you'll need 2 QBs then just like you need 2 RB's now.
It's evolution baby.
Don't be surprised if in 10 yrs we are complaining about Quarterback by commitee becoming the new thing because you'll need 2 QBs then just like you need 2 RB's now.
It's evolution baby.
Run It Up
Footballguy
But... but he hasnt done any of that.
you have not watched the Broncos play since Tebow has started or you would realize their offense has not improved at all as I showed in my simple points per game analysis above. their defense has however
Dizzy
Footballguy
He is our little miracle baby!
So true. I can't get enough of reading all the Tebow threads just to see the haters and lovers bicker at each other. It's very entertaining.
Dizzy
Footballguy
I think you're really viewing this through a "special" pair of spectacles.Tebow will only go as far as his defense carries him. That Thursday night game for example... how about giving credit where credit is due. Sure Tebow pulled off a great game-winning drive; however, he was ONLY in position to do so thanks entirely to a defense that not only held up under 55 minutes of some really terrible "3 & out" football, but also SCORED on a pic-6 to keep Denver close enough for the miracle to take place.I think the trend will continue; they'll get the crap kicked out of them by good teams, and squeak out 13-10 revolutionary miracles against lesser teams.
Mike Vick can make defenses look much stupider... and he can throw a littlr bit. Lets see what happens when its Peppers and Urlacher are eyeballing Tebow. This is not a revolution in football, we all know that great defense and special teams can hide a subpar offense in the right circumstances. Making a virtue out of a lack of statistical success is just illogical.
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