To all those who think Vick is overrated... (1 Viewer)

[Rhino]

I wish I had gotten in on this debate earlier... I think the dead horse has been beaten here!

But one thing I have noticed over the years is this:

Great running quarterbacks never seem to become truely great until they learn to settle down and throw the ball more than they run. Think of all the "moblie" QB's like Elway, Young, Favre - guys who make huge plays out of the pocket. And then there are the "running" QB's like McNabb and Culpepper... they have the abililty to make the throw first, and run only if need be. Vick is still in that mode where he's too quick to run the ball, and because of that he's not developing his skills as a passer. His numbers prove it, and the numbers of his receivers prove it as well.

There's no doubt that Vick has amazing talent, and his ablility to make plays when he gets out of the pocket is a huge advantage. But just ask Kordell Stewart how that whole "Slash" personna worked out for him?!? There comes a point when the running QB has to settle down and throw. That is the definition of the QB position. And until Vick proves he can do that, people are going to hold judegment on him.

And there's one opponent Vick cannot outrun - Father Time. Do you think when Michael Vick is 30 years old he'll be blazing downfield like he is today? Or is it more likely he'll be sitting in the pocket trying to throw the ball to his receivers? Or is it even more likely that by the time he's 30 he'll be the answer to a Trivial Pursuit question?!?

 

[jwvdcw]

2.The ability to make others around him better. The entire team should perform better with a great QB at the helm. I believe Warrick Dunn is the best example of this. I believe that you could stick any RB in Atlanta with Vick playing, and he'll easily rush for 1300 yards...the defense simply focuses on Vick so much that its easy for the RB.

And yet I've already presented statistics to you which clearly show Dunn was also very productive in Tampa Bay and some of his statistics (notably YPC) were better last season when Vick was injured. Go figure.Also, I'm still waiting for you to show me how Vick has made any of the Falcon WRs better. As a QB, that is something I consider to be a vital element of his makeup. For example, Brett Favre has a well-earned reputation for bringing out the best in his (often mediocre) WRs. In Favre's career, he's played with only legitimate All-Pro WR and that was Sterling Sharpe. And yet, Favre puts up 30 touchdown seasons at the drop of a hat. Even when he has pedestrian WRs to work with, Favre manages to bring out the best in them -- and he's helped make a few of them quite rich in the process (see Antonio Freeman and Bill Schroeder).

Now it's not fair to compare Vick to one of the game's greatest players of all time and a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Fair enough. So how about Trent Green? Green has had d**k to work with at wide receiver in Kansas City and yet he had a banner season last year. Sure he has Gonzalez and Holmes (which are obviously two huge weapons), but Vick has a good tight end in Crumpler and a good receiving RB in Dunn, so it's not like he has nothing at those positions to work with in the passing game.

And yet Vick has averaged less than 155 passing yards a game in his last seven games dating back to last season. If Vick was truly as good as so many people want to believe and if he really did make players around him better, shouldn't he be showing something in the passing game? He is, after all, a quarterback. That really shouldn't be so much to ask for.

I guess you missed what I wrote..."You're right about Dunn. I kept hearing about how hes doing so well this year that I just assumed he was doing better(Also someone claiming that the fact that they're 3-0 this year was due to Dunn caused me to automatically assume that Dunn was having a great year but I guess people here often make silly points, so I should check facts and not assume). My mistake, but I still maintain that Vick clearly makes everyone on the team a ton better by having everyone focus upon him.

"

I did miss that and I apologize. But once again I ask: How has Vick made his WRs better? Is Price performing better this year with Vick than he did last year without him? Is Dez White better in Atlanta than he was in Chicago? As I've pointed out, a good QB can make even the most ordinary WRs look good. So is Vick doing that in Atlanta in an offensive scheme that everyone knows is very "quarterback friendly?"

I'm not sure if you're joking or not since you put it in quotation marks....but isn't the WCO one of the absolute hardest systems for a QB to learn and often takes 3 years? I remember people saying in the preseason about Vick's lack of preseason play: "I understand they don't want to hurt him, but they need to get him some reps with that new offense since its so difficult to learn."

Yes the WCO is considered a difficult offense to learn. However, it is also considered by every QB who's ever played in it (at least the ones who had success) to be a very quarterback friendly offense. And while many of them did struggle to pick up and learn all of its finer points, many of them did have success while they were learning the system. So it's not an either/or situation. And yet with Vick, what have we seen? We've seen a quarterback struggling to adapt to the offense (no surprise and not an indictment of his ability), but also one who has yet to produce anything of substance in the passing game (that is a surprise given his physical ability and given the nature of the offense and its built-in elements to help a quarterback generate positive results). And I'll ask one final time: What evidence is there that suggests Vick has made his WRs better? Do you have an answer to this question or not? I'm curious because you have insisted one of Vick's strengths is his ability to make those around him better.

Concerning the WCO, note that most QBs who successfully succeed in it have sat the bench for a long time first(Young, Hasselbeck, etc.). I think its a very hard offense for a young QB to learn and it requires years of experience to adapt to. For that reason, I wouldn't call it 'qb friendly' for a young QB.As for WRs...you're right, he hasn't made any of them look better(sorry btw, for ignoring this point for so long, it wasn't intentional). Vick's strength is obviously his legs, so I won't pretend otherwise. However, I also think its clear that Price is not a true #1. I think that if Vick ever got a solid WR that he would indeed make that WR into a superstar.

 

[Demian]

Sure Vick hasn't shown anything in the passing game in the WCO, but guess what, he didn't show anything special in the passing game before the WCO either. McNabb got thrown into the WCO early in his career and he turned an aging Chad Lewis into a Pro Bowler. Alge Crumpler is an actual talented TE, he proved that when he made it happen with the lowly ATL QB backups last year. McNabb also posted respectable passing numbers to go along with the rushing with the likes of Torrence Small, Charles Johnson, James Thrash, and Todd Pinkston (yeah, who?). Culpepper need not enter the equation because he started his career with 2 HOF WRs to throw to. McNabb's worst career passing year, last year, equals Vick's best (albeit only) passing year. This year we are all seeing what McNabb is truly capable of, while Vick has still yet to show much of anything in the passing game.

 

[Jason Wood]

I wish I had gotten in on this debate earlier... I think the dead horse has been beaten here!

But one thing I have noticed over the years is this:

Great running quarterbacks never seem to become truely great until they learn to settle down and throw the ball more than they run. Think of all the "moblie" QB's like Elway, Young, Favre - guys who make huge plays out of the pocket. And then there are the "running" QB's like McNabb and Culpepper... they have the abililty to make the throw first, and run only if need be. Vick is still in that mode where he's too quick to run the ball, and because of that he's not developing his skills as a passer. His numbers prove it, and the numbers of his receivers prove it as well.

There's no doubt that Vick has amazing talent, and his ablility to make plays when he gets out of the pocket is a huge advantage. But just ask Kordell Stewart how that whole "Slash" personna worked out for him?!? There comes a point when the running QB has to settle down and throw. That is the definition of the QB position. And until Vick proves he can do that, people are going to hold judegment on him.

And there's one opponent Vick cannot outrun - Father Time. Do you think when Michael Vick is 30 years old he'll be blazing downfield like he is today? Or is it more likely he'll be sitting in the pocket trying to throw the ball to his receivers? Or is it even more likely that by the time he's 30 he'll be the answer to a Trivial Pursuit question?!?

There are two sides to this argument (obviously) and I think the key to both sides can be boiled down into the following statements.1) Case FOR Vick -- Yes, other mobile QBs as mentioned needed to elevate their passing skills before they becamse SB caliber contenders. However, no other QB in NFL history (including McNair, McNabb, Favre, Young, etc...) was as talented an open field runner as Mike Vick. To take away his mobility would be removing the key cog that makes him a difference maker.

2) Case AGAINST Vick -- Vick has been quoted countless times saying that in order to have a long, successful career he HAS to stop running as much and learn to be a pocket passer. If he recognizes that need, no one can seemingly argue against this as fact. Yet, I challenge anyone to find a college QB who wasn't productive as a passer yet morphed into one in the pros. McNabb played in a pro set passing offense at Syracuse. Culpepper threw for a gazillion yards at CFU. McNair threw for 400+ yards a game at Alcorn. Young was an offensive passing machine at BYU.

Where do I sit in this debate? Well, I've seen Vick play enough to know that anyone who thinks he's not a difference maker doesn't understand football. He changes the entire face of the Falcons and is arguably the hardest single player to defend against in the league today. That said, I don't believe he's a player I would want to build a franchise around as I don't see him developing into the kind of passer that he'll need to in order for the Falcons to consistently contend in the playoffs AND give Vick a reasonable chance of staying healthy.

So...to those who say he's the best player in the league, I say he's overrated. To those who think he's a difference maker with great UNREALIZED potential, I think he's accurately graded.

 

[packersfan]

As for WRs...you're right, he hasn't made any of them look better(sorry btw, for ignoring this point for so long, it wasn't intentional). Vick's strength is obviously his legs, so I won't pretend otherwise. However, I also think its clear that Price is not a true #1. I think that if Vick ever got a solid WR that he would indeed make that WR into a superstar.

And once again I'll point out that other QBs who have played in this offense (Favre and Green spring to mind instantly) have often worked with pedestrian WRs and still thrived in the passing game. While it's obviously early in Vick's development as both a QB and a QB in the WCO, my problem with him is I don't see much maturation in terms of his passing ability. He often struggled to produce passing yardage two seasons ago; he struggled last season and he's struggling again. I'm not seeing the curve go upward despite the fact this offense is geared toward helping quarterbacks. Even as he learns this offense, he should be showing something in the passing game right now, but I'm not seeing anything.

Does this mean Vick stinks and isn't going to be a good quarterback? Of course not. But does it mean he has a long way to go before he truly becomes a good to great quarterback? It does in my book. And that is what makes him over-rated. He simply isn't as good as the hype would lead you to believe -- and that is definitely true in fantasy football where he is a virtual certainty to go anywhere from 2-5 rounds earlier than he should in most drafts in my opinion.

 

[jwvdcw]

Sure Vick hasn't shown anything in the passing game in the WCO, but guess what, he didn't show anything special in the passing game before the WCO either. McNabb got thrown into the WCO early in his career and he turned an aging Chad Lewis into a Pro Bowler. Alge Crumpler is an actual talented TE, he proved that when he made it happen with the lowly ATL QB backups last year. McNabb also posted respectable passing numbers to go along with the rushing with the likes of Torrence Small, Charles Johnson, James Thrash, and Todd Pinkston (yeah, who?). Culpepper need not enter the equation because he started his career with 2 HOF WRs to throw to. McNabb's worst career passing year, last year, equals Vick's best (albeit only) passing year. This year we are all seeing what McNabb is truly capable of, while Vick has still yet to show much of anything in the passing game.

When I made my list of best QBs(on the first page of this thread), I put McNabb above Vick...so why are you trying to convince me of something I already agree with you on?

 

[jwvdcw]

As for WRs...you're right, he hasn't made any of them look better(sorry btw, for ignoring this point for so long, it wasn't intentional). Vick's strength is obviously his legs, so I won't pretend otherwise. However, I also think its clear that Price is not a true #1. I think that if Vick ever got a solid WR that he would indeed make that WR into a superstar.

And once again I'll point out that other QBs who have played in this offense (Favre and Green spring to mind instantly) have often worked with pedestrian WRs and still thrived in the passing game. While it's obviously early in Vick's development as both a QB and a QB in the WCO, my problem with him is I don't see much maturation in terms of his passing ability. He often struggled to produce passing yardage two seasons ago; he struggled last season and he's struggling again. I'm not seeing the curve go upward despite the fact this offense is geared toward helping quarterbacks. Even as he learns this offense, he should be showing something in the passing game right now, but I'm not seeing anything.

Does this mean Vick stinks and isn't going to be a good quarterback? Of course not. But does it mean he has a long way to go before he truly becomes a good to great quarterback? It does in my book. And that is what makes him over-rated. He simply isn't as good as the hype would lead you to believe -- and that is definitely true in fantasy football where he is a virtual certainty to go anywhere from 2-5 rounds earlier than he should in most drafts in my opinion.

You do realize that this is Vick's second full year as a starter. What do you expect?Take a look at some of these QBs who are either in their 2nd or even 3rd years as starters: Boeller, Leftwich, Carr, Brees, and so on and so on....are they any better? Can you name one current QB in his 2nd year as a starter who has done better?

YOu mention Brett Favre...how good was he in his first few years in the league?

I don't understand how you can say you fail to see improvement in his passing skills.

He sat the bench one year and then played in his second year. In his third year he was hurt, and in his fourth year he is learning a new system- where has he even had a chance there to show you this improvement? He is improving...you're just not going to see it initially because he's learning a new system, but you will as he becomes comfortable in it imo.

 

[packersfan]

As for WRs...you're right, he hasn't made any of them look better(sorry btw, for ignoring this point for so long, it wasn't intentional). Vick's strength is obviously his legs, so I won't pretend otherwise. However, I also think its clear that Price is not a true #1. I think that if Vick ever got a solid WR that he would indeed make that WR into a superstar.

And once again I'll point out that other QBs who have played in this offense (Favre and Green spring to mind instantly) have often worked with pedestrian WRs and still thrived in the passing game. While it's obviously early in Vick's development as both a QB and a QB in the WCO, my problem with him is I don't see much maturation in terms of his passing ability. He often struggled to produce passing yardage two seasons ago; he struggled last season and he's struggling again. I'm not seeing the curve go upward despite the fact this offense is geared toward helping quarterbacks. Even as he learns this offense, he should be showing something in the passing game right now, but I'm not seeing anything.

Does this mean Vick stinks and isn't going to be a good quarterback? Of course not. But does it mean he has a long way to go before he truly becomes a good to great quarterback? It does in my book. And that is what makes him over-rated. He simply isn't as good as the hype would lead you to believe -- and that is definitely true in fantasy football where he is a virtual certainty to go anywhere from 2-5 rounds earlier than he should in most drafts in my opinion.

You do realize that this is Vick's second full year as a starter. What do you expect?

I'd expect to see a quarterback who doesn't turn a 170-yard passing day into some sort of major accomplishment. While I think Vick is a very exciting player and a defensive coordinator's nightmare, I'm still waiting for him to prove he can be an effective passer. He's far along enough in his career to at least start showing something in that aspect of the game and yet here we sit taking bets on what the over/under will be on his 200-yard passing games this season.

 

[jwvdcw]

As for WRs...you're right, he hasn't made any of them look better(sorry btw, for ignoring this point for so long, it wasn't intentional). Vick's strength is obviously his legs, so I won't pretend otherwise. However, I also think its clear that Price is not a true #1. I think that if Vick ever got a solid WR that he would indeed make that WR into a superstar.

And once again I'll point out that other QBs who have played in this offense (Favre and Green spring to mind instantly) have often worked with pedestrian WRs and still thrived in the passing game. While it's obviously early in Vick's development as both a QB and a QB in the WCO, my problem with him is I don't see much maturation in terms of his passing ability. He often struggled to produce passing yardage two seasons ago; he struggled last season and he's struggling again. I'm not seeing the curve go upward despite the fact this offense is geared toward helping quarterbacks. Even as he learns this offense, he should be showing something in the passing game right now, but I'm not seeing anything.

Does this mean Vick stinks and isn't going to be a good quarterback? Of course not. But does it mean he has a long way to go before he truly becomes a good to great quarterback? It does in my book. And that is what makes him over-rated. He simply isn't as good as the hype would lead you to believe -- and that is definitely true in fantasy football where he is a virtual certainty to go anywhere from 2-5 rounds earlier than he should in most drafts in my opinion.

You do realize that this is Vick's second full year as a starter. What do you expect?

I'd expect to see a quarterback who doesn't turn a 170-yard passing day into some sort of major accomplishment. While I think Vick is a very exciting player and a defensive coordinator's nightmare, I'm still waiting for him to prove he can be an effective passer. He's far along enough in his career to at least start showing something in that aspect of the game and yet here we sit taking bets on what the over/under will be on his 200-yard passing games this season.

Fair enough....but once again you've lured me in to debating about stats when I've said all along that its making your team a winner that matters to me.

 

[packersfan]

As for WRs...you're right, he hasn't made any of them look better(sorry btw, for ignoring this point for so long, it wasn't intentional). Vick's strength is obviously his legs, so I won't pretend otherwise. However, I also think its clear that Price is not a true #1. I think that if Vick ever got a solid WR that he would indeed make that WR into a superstar.

And once again I'll point out that other QBs who have played in this offense (Favre and Green spring to mind instantly) have often worked with pedestrian WRs and still thrived in the passing game. While it's obviously early in Vick's development as both a QB and a QB in the WCO, my problem with him is I don't see much maturation in terms of his passing ability. He often struggled to produce passing yardage two seasons ago; he struggled last season and he's struggling again. I'm not seeing the curve go upward despite the fact this offense is geared toward helping quarterbacks. Even as he learns this offense, he should be showing something in the passing game right now, but I'm not seeing anything.

Does this mean Vick stinks and isn't going to be a good quarterback? Of course not. But does it mean he has a long way to go before he truly becomes a good to great quarterback? It does in my book. And that is what makes him over-rated. He simply isn't as good as the hype would lead you to believe -- and that is definitely true in fantasy football where he is a virtual certainty to go anywhere from 2-5 rounds earlier than he should in most drafts in my opinion.

You do realize that this is Vick's second full year as a starter. What do you expect?

I'd expect to see a quarterback who doesn't turn a 170-yard passing day into some sort of major accomplishment. While I think Vick is a very exciting player and a defensive coordinator's nightmare, I'm still waiting for him to prove he can be an effective passer. He's far along enough in his career to at least start showing something in that aspect of the game and yet here we sit taking bets on what the over/under will be on his 200-yard passing games this season.

Fair enough....but once again you've lured me in to debating about stats when I've said all along that its making your team a winner that matters to me.

I'm not questioning that point of view. However, I would question how much of an impact Vick actually had in the Falcons' 3-0 record so far this season. It's safe to say they won in spite of him against the Cardinals, that's for sure. An improved defense and Dunn are the two biggest factors I see in their early season success.

 

[jwvdcw]

As for WRs...you're right, he hasn't made any of them look better(sorry btw, for ignoring this point for so long, it wasn't intentional). Vick's strength is obviously his legs, so I won't pretend otherwise. However, I also think its clear that Price is not a true #1. I think that if Vick ever got a solid WR that he would indeed make that WR into a superstar.

And once again I'll point out that other QBs who have played in this offense (Favre and Green spring to mind instantly) have often worked with pedestrian WRs and still thrived in the passing game. While it's obviously early in Vick's development as both a QB and a QB in the WCO, my problem with him is I don't see much maturation in terms of his passing ability. He often struggled to produce passing yardage two seasons ago; he struggled last season and he's struggling again. I'm not seeing the curve go upward despite the fact this offense is geared toward helping quarterbacks. Even as he learns this offense, he should be showing something in the passing game right now, but I'm not seeing anything.

Does this mean Vick stinks and isn't going to be a good quarterback? Of course not. But does it mean he has a long way to go before he truly becomes a good to great quarterback? It does in my book. And that is what makes him over-rated. He simply isn't as good as the hype would lead you to believe -- and that is definitely true in fantasy football where he is a virtual certainty to go anywhere from 2-5 rounds earlier than he should in most drafts in my opinion.

You do realize that this is Vick's second full year as a starter. What do you expect?

I'd expect to see a quarterback who doesn't turn a 170-yard passing day into some sort of major accomplishment. While I think Vick is a very exciting player and a defensive coordinator's nightmare, I'm still waiting for him to prove he can be an effective passer. He's far along enough in his career to at least start showing something in that aspect of the game and yet here we sit taking bets on what the over/under will be on his 200-yard passing games this season.

Fair enough....but once again you've lured me in to debating about stats when I've said all along that its making your team a winner that matters to me.

I'm not questioning that point of view. However, I would question how much of an impact Vick actually had in the Falcons' 3-0 record so far this season. It's safe to say they won in spite of him against the Cardinals, that's for sure. An improved defense and Dunn are the two biggest factors I see in their early season success.

1.Someone in this thread has already shown that Dunn has actually done worse than last year when he had his career high in YPC. Also Duckett has obviously had a lot less production, so I don't see how you can cite an improved running game as the reason for their success.2.Who have they added on defense since last year?

 

[packersfan]

As for WRs...you're right, he hasn't made any of them look better(sorry btw, for ignoring this point for so long, it wasn't intentional). Vick's strength is obviously his legs, so I won't pretend otherwise. However, I also think its clear that Price is not a true #1. I think that if Vick ever got a solid WR that he would indeed make that WR into a superstar.

And once again I'll point out that other QBs who have played in this offense (Favre and Green spring to mind instantly) have often worked with pedestrian WRs and still thrived in the passing game. While it's obviously early in Vick's development as both a QB and a QB in the WCO, my problem with him is I don't see much maturation in terms of his passing ability. He often struggled to produce passing yardage two seasons ago; he struggled last season and he's struggling again. I'm not seeing the curve go upward despite the fact this offense is geared toward helping quarterbacks. Even as he learns this offense, he should be showing something in the passing game right now, but I'm not seeing anything.

Does this mean Vick stinks and isn't going to be a good quarterback? Of course not. But does it mean he has a long way to go before he truly becomes a good to great quarterback? It does in my book. And that is what makes him over-rated. He simply isn't as good as the hype would lead you to believe -- and that is definitely true in fantasy football where he is a virtual certainty to go anywhere from 2-5 rounds earlier than he should in most drafts in my opinion.

You do realize that this is Vick's second full year as a starter. What do you expect?

I'd expect to see a quarterback who doesn't turn a 170-yard passing day into some sort of major accomplishment. While I think Vick is a very exciting player and a defensive coordinator's nightmare, I'm still waiting for him to prove he can be an effective passer. He's far along enough in his career to at least start showing something in that aspect of the game and yet here we sit taking bets on what the over/under will be on his 200-yard passing games this season.

Fair enough....but once again you've lured me in to debating about stats when I've said all along that its making your team a winner that matters to me.

I'm not questioning that point of view. However, I would question how much of an impact Vick actually had in the Falcons' 3-0 record so far this season. It's safe to say they won in spite of him against the Cardinals, that's for sure. An improved defense and Dunn are the two biggest factors I see in their early season success.

1.Someone in this thread has already shown that Dunn has actually done worse than last year when he had his career high in YPC. Also Duckett has obviously had a lot less production, so I don't see how you can cite an improved running game as the reason for their success.2.Who have they added on defense since last year?

They're clearly playing better defense than a year ago. Last season they ranked dead last in defense and gave up 26 points per game. This season, they rank 11th in total defense and are allowing only 13 points per game. That is significant improvement at this early stage of the season.As far as Dunn, yes his YPC was higher last season (as I first pointed out that was without Vick), but his yards per game is higher this season (74.3) than last (61.1). He's clearly a better fit for the WCO than Duckett which explains why Duckett is barely playing. And Dunn's strong performance is easily the only consistent aspect of the Falcons' offense.

Are the Falcons better with Vick than the parade of losers they had at QB last year? Obviously. But is Vick's return the key reason why Atlanta is 3-0? I don't believe so. In fact, if the passing game doesn't start to improve I think the Falcons are going to be in some real trouble -- and that trouble could begin as soon as Sunday at Carolina.

 

[Demian]

Jim Mora Jr.

 

[jwvdcw]

As for WRs...you're right, he hasn't made any of them look better(sorry btw, for ignoring this point for so long, it wasn't intentional). Vick's strength is obviously his legs, so I won't pretend otherwise. However, I also think its clear that Price is not a true #1. I think that if Vick ever got a solid WR that he would indeed make that WR into a superstar.

And once again I'll point out that other QBs who have played in this offense (Favre and Green spring to mind instantly) have often worked with pedestrian WRs and still thrived in the passing game. While it's obviously early in Vick's development as both a QB and a QB in the WCO, my problem with him is I don't see much maturation in terms of his passing ability. He often struggled to produce passing yardage two seasons ago; he struggled last season and he's struggling again. I'm not seeing the curve go upward despite the fact this offense is geared toward helping quarterbacks. Even as he learns this offense, he should be showing something in the passing game right now, but I'm not seeing anything.

Does this mean Vick stinks and isn't going to be a good quarterback? Of course not. But does it mean he has a long way to go before he truly becomes a good to great quarterback? It does in my book. And that is what makes him over-rated. He simply isn't as good as the hype would lead you to believe -- and that is definitely true in fantasy football where he is a virtual certainty to go anywhere from 2-5 rounds earlier than he should in most drafts in my opinion.

You do realize that this is Vick's second full year as a starter. What do you expect?

I'd expect to see a quarterback who doesn't turn a 170-yard passing day into some sort of major accomplishment. While I think Vick is a very exciting player and a defensive coordinator's nightmare, I'm still waiting for him to prove he can be an effective passer. He's far along enough in his career to at least start showing something in that aspect of the game and yet here we sit taking bets on what the over/under will be on his 200-yard passing games this season.

Fair enough....but once again you've lured me in to debating about stats when I've said all along that its making your team a winner that matters to me.

I'm not questioning that point of view. However, I would question how much of an impact Vick actually had in the Falcons' 3-0 record so far this season. It's safe to say they won in spite of him against the Cardinals, that's for sure. An improved defense and Dunn are the two biggest factors I see in their early season success.

1.Someone in this thread has already shown that Dunn has actually done worse than last year when he had his career high in YPC. Also Duckett has obviously had a lot less production, so I don't see how you can cite an improved running game as the reason for their success.2.Who have they added on defense since last year?

They're clearly playing better defense than a year ago. Last season they ranked dead last in defense and gave up 26 points per game. This season, they rank 11th in total defense and are allowing only 13 points per game. That is significant improvement at this early stage of the season.As far as Dunn, yes his YPC was higher last season (as I first pointed out that was without Vick), but his yards per game is higher this season (74.3) than last (61.1). He's clearly a better fit for the WCO than Duckett which explains why Duckett is barely playing. And Dunn's strong performance is easily the only consistent aspect of the Falcons' offense.

Are the Falcons better with Vick than the parade of losers they had at QB last year? Obviously. But is Vick's return the key reason why Atlanta is 3-0? I don't believe so. In fact, if the passing game doesn't start to improve I think the Falcons are going to be in some real trouble -- and that trouble could begin as soon as Sunday at Carolina.

So which way do you want it...When I claimed that Vick's return made Dunn better, you threw YPC at me saying that Dunn was in fact better without Vick.

Then when I asked what the big difference was this year if it wasn't Vick, you mentioned Dunn's yards per game this year and said that hes doing better this year.

So before we move on, lets clarify....Was Dunn better last year or this year?

And also, I fully realize this may sound absurd but I totally believe that Vick makes the Falcons defense better. There are very few teams in the league that totally rally around their leader. When Ray Lewis misses a game, you can see that the offense loses some of its confidence even though he is on the other sideline while they play. He gives them that certain swagger and confidence that they can compete with anyone in the NFL. I belive that Vick is the same way. If he got hurt, I think their whole team would be demoralized and their defense will suffer...so in short, I think their improved Defense is indeed a result of Vick.

 

[jurb26]

A couple of question for you guys:1. Who is the Atl Oline coach this year and do you think that maybe, just maybe he has had an impact on the Atl running game improvments as well as/possibly more than Vick?2. Could you please cut out the entire quotes or at least make them smaller so that this thread is not so dang frustrating to read?Thank you

 

[red_flag]

Vick is not overrated. He's nearly impossible to game plan against. He makes the whole offense better because of the adjustments the defense has to make against him.

agree 100% MaurileVick is the LT(1) of this generation on offense. D-Coor's must account for him in the same way O-Coor's had to account for Sir Lawrence. As a G-Men homer, I grew up watching LT make 3-4 momentum shift plays per game, after game, after game (Ray Lewis is the closest today) Vick is prepared for and defended against differently than any other QB. And, he is still a "babe" Look at last week's game. Vick's having a "bad" game and although AZ is bumbling the victory they still have a chance late with ATL pinned deep - what happens next - Vick rips off 60+ yard run - game over.If he is patient and can learn to follow "all" his progressions before he runs he will redefine the position......in some ways, he already has

 

[packersfan]

So which way do you want it...When I claimed that Vick's return made Dunn better, you threw YPC at me saying that Dunn was in fact better without Vick.Then when I asked what the big difference was this year if it wasn't Vick, you mentioned Dunn's yards per game this year and said that hes doing better this year.So before we move on, lets clarify....Was Dunn better last year or this year?

You got me. Seriously, I think Dunn is Dunn. He's been a solid RB his entire career. I don't think Vick has made him any better because he obviously was good in Tampa Bay and he played well without Vick last season. But even if I was to grant you that Vick's presence is bringing out the best in Dunn (though I would credit the scheme and the way it suits Dunn's skills as the primary factor), that still doesn't address my No. 1 point throughout all of this and that is the fact that Vick is often a very poor passer. I've yet to see him make his WRs better and once again I will reiterate that if Vick doesn't show improvement throwing the ball the Falcons are going to have some real problems before the year is out. Vick's inability to generate a legitimate passing attack has to be viewed as a major concern despite the team's 3-0 record. And their improved defense is the result of Mora, who knows a thing or two about coaching that side of the football and Donatell, who also did a terrific job in his first season when he joined the Packers. As time went on, he got less and less effective, however. But this is clearly a better-coached team defensively.

 

[jwvdcw]

Lets make that 16-7-1 with Vick and 2-10 without him. And btw....Arizona showed today that they're a lot better than many think, especially their defense which is one of the tops in the league imo.

 

[jwvdcw]

So which way do you want it...When I claimed that Vick's return made Dunn better, you threw YPC at me saying that Dunn was in fact better without Vick.Then when I asked what the big difference was this year if it wasn't Vick, you mentioned Dunn's yards per game this year and said that hes doing better this year.So before we move on, lets clarify....Was Dunn better last year or this year?

You got me. Seriously, I think Dunn is Dunn. He's been a solid RB his entire career. I don't think Vick has made him any better because he obviously was good in Tampa Bay and he played well without Vick last season. But even if I was to grant you that Vick's presence is bringing out the best in Dunn (though I would credit the scheme and the way it suits Dunn's skills as the primary factor), that still doesn't address my No. 1 point throughout all of this and that is the fact that Vick is often a very poor passer. I've yet to see him make his WRs better and once again I will reiterate that if Vick doesn't show improvement throwing the ball the Falcons are going to have some real problems before the year is out. Vick's inability to generate a legitimate passing attack has to be viewed as a major concern despite the team's 3-0 record. And their improved defense is the result of Mora, who knows a thing or two about coaching that side of the football and Donatell, who also did a terrific job in his first season when he joined the Packers. As time went on, he got less and less effective, however. But this is clearly a better-coached team defensively.

I'll agree that Vick isn't the greatest pure thrower yet.I'll disagree that unless he improves, they'll have problems. Whats so problematic about 16-7-1 and 4-0 to start the year? Vick will slowly improve, but even without improvement, hes still good enough to make this average team a super bowl contender.

 

[pizzatyme]

So which way do you want it...When I claimed that Vick's return made Dunn better, you threw YPC at me saying that Dunn was in fact better without Vick.Then when I asked what the big difference was this year if it wasn't Vick, you mentioned Dunn's yards per game this year and said that hes doing better this year.So before we move on, lets clarify....Was Dunn better last year or this year?

This smells of John Kerry! Flip flop....tehe As for Vick making a good receiver into a great one as some mentioned earlier in the thread, I agree that this will happen.....as soon as they start allowing one-hoppers as completions! :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

 

[Rhino]

I think this week's game REALLY showed how the Falcons are winning as a Team, and not necessarily because of Superman... er... Mike Vick.Two rushing TD's by Dunn and Duckett, and an interception return for a TD by the Defense. Oh, and don't forget the stellar 148 yards passing by the BEST QUARTERBACK IN THE LEAGUE?!?I was curious how the Falcons are really winning, so I watched the whole game today on TV. (since it was the first televised Falcons game in my market this season)I give all the credit to Mora and the coaching staff for really building a TEAM in Atlanta. Vick may be a great "athelete" and a threat with the ball, but I'm done buying the BS that this guy is a QB. He put up worse numbers today than Ben Roethlisberger - where is Ben's shoe deal and TV Commercial?!?I'm officially sick of having Mike Vick shoved down my throat.

 

[deadrebel]

I think this week's game REALLY showed how the Falcons are winning as a Team, and not necessarily because of Superman... er... Mike Vick.Two rushing TD's by Dunn and Duckett, and an interception return for a TD by the Defense. Oh, and don't forget the stellar 148 yards passing by the BEST QUARTERBACK IN THE LEAGUE?!?I was curious how the Falcons are really winning, so I watched the whole game today on TV. (since it was the first televised Falcons game in my market this season)I give all the credit to Mora and the coaching staff for really building a TEAM in Atlanta. Vick may be a great "athelete" and a threat with the ball, but I'm done buying the BS that this guy is a QB. He put up worse numbers today than Ben Roethlisberger - where is Ben's shoe deal and TV Commercial?!?I'm officially sick of having Mike Vick shoved down my throat.

Falcons are doing it with defense and a solid running game. Vick may actually be the weakest link on the team (yes i said it)

 

[heyshady]

Vick essentially makes the game a 8 on 11 ball game. Opposing defenses are forced to assign a spy and play their DEs conservatively on the edges. Heck, make it more like 6/7 on 11. Defenses have to worry so much about Vick's running ability that 4 or 5 guys #1 responsibility is to contain him. You can't teach that and it doesn't show up in the end of game stats. That is why Atlanta will win with Vick as the QB whether he has a good QB rating or not. That is why Dunn is having success and that is why Alge Crumpler is running wide open in the secondary. And that is why, with or without a good QB rating, Vick is one of the premier players in the NFL.Make no mistake, Vick is the absolute reason for their success. The Falcons have proven what kind of team they are with and without him.A lot of people on this board love fantasy football but they don't understand real football. Just know that they are two totally different things and reading the stat book, while a good exercise in fantasy football, is worthless in real football.

 

[imeimex]

Don't Hate.Appreciate.The fantasy world gets so caught up in statistics that we can't appreciate what Vick means to his team. We are watching a once in a lifetime talent. If you do not realize what Vick means to the Falcons, you don't know anything about football.

 

[Bovine Swami]

Honestly I think the one missing point in this whole argument is the new West Coast offense. From what I have seen so far this season, the coaches are deliberately bringing Vick along slowly in the new offense, implementing it a bit at a time.Consider that most experts say it takes 2-3 years to learn and be productive in the West Coast offense. Vick has been at it for 4 games. I think right now the coaches are empasizing "don't force it, don't make mistakes" with Vick, just like Dilfer did with the Ravens in their Super Bowl year. The great play of the Defense and the running game are taking the pressure off Vick and allowing this slow development to happen.But I do think at some point during the season you are going to see Vick start winning a couple games by himself. And I honestly think that in orde to win their division and/or make the playoff Vick is going to have to take things to the next level and start performing.

 

[Loopdog]

Nice post Swami.People seem to forget that Donovan McNabb couldnt hit the broad side of a barn the first few years in this offense. The Falcons dont NEED Vick's passing to win them games right now.If you've watched them this season, you know that.They havent trailed ONCE yet.Thats crazy, after 4 games, not trailed once!So why would they need Vick to throw for alot of yards? They just keep handing off and running it down the opponents throats.If its not broke, dont fix it. Sure, its annoying because Vick is my QB and he's putting up zilch, but i'm a real football fan first and foremost and this guy is a player. He throws the ball less than 20 times a game, are you expecting 300 yards out of that?I think he's looked very good as a passer this year thus far, albeit most of them are dink and dunks.But you wont see Vick air it out this year until he absolutely has to. And right now, its not neccessary because they are winning with Running and Defense. Period.When they need Vick to win them a game, he will. Trust me. All of you people who have loved him over the years and all jumping off the bandwagon because he's started this year slow in a new offense. Shame on you.He's still a freakin STUD. And one of these weeks when he needs to show you all, he will. Then the posts will come back where everyone says he's Michael Jordan in cleats. Football is about winning, not about stats. Nobody cares about fantasy football who plays in the NFL. They care about wins and losses, and last time i checked the Falcons are 4-0. Loop

 

[Jason Wood]

Nice post Swami.People seem to forget that Donovan McNabb couldnt hit the broad side of a barn the first few years in this offense. The Falcons dont NEED Vick's passing to win them games right now.If you've watched them this season, you know that.They havent trailed ONCE yet.Thats crazy, after 4 games, not trailed once!So why would they need Vick to throw for alot of yards? They just keep handing off and running it down the opponents throats.If its not broke, dont fix it. Sure, its annoying because Vick is my QB and he's putting up zilch, but i'm a real football fan first and foremost and this guy is a player. He throws the ball less than 20 times a game, are you expecting 300 yards out of that?I think he's looked very good as a passer this year thus far, albeit most of them are dink and dunks.But you wont see Vick air it out this year until he absolutely has to. And right now, its not neccessary because they are winning with Running and Defense. Period.When they need Vick to win them a game, he will. Trust me. All of you people who have loved him over the years and all jumping off the bandwagon because he's started this year slow in a new offense. Shame on you.He's still a freakin STUD. And one of these weeks when he needs to show you all, he will. Then the posts will come back where everyone says he's Michael Jordan in cleats. Football is about winning, not about stats. Nobody cares about fantasy football who plays in the NFL. They care about wins and losses, and last time i checked the Falcons are 4-0. Loop

Let's not compare apples to oranges here. McNabb's worst year as a starter (in terms of completion percentage) was last season, when he completed 57.5% of his passes, HARDLY "couldn't hit a broadside of a barn." http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/McNaDo00.htmAnd while Vick has talents no other QB, McNabb included, possess...let's not forget that Vick was not a passer in college either. McNabb ran an NFL-style pro offense at Syracuse for FOUR YEARS. He was a passer in college who also was capable of running, Vick was a fantastic athlete who ran and made plays with his arm on occasion.

 

[jwvdcw]

I think this week's game REALLY showed how the Falcons are winning as a Team, and not necessarily because of Superman... er... Mike Vick.Two rushing TD's by Dunn and Duckett, and an interception return for a TD by the Defense. Oh, and don't forget the stellar 148 yards passing by the BEST QUARTERBACK IN THE LEAGUE?!?I was curious how the Falcons are really winning, so I watched the whole game today on TV. (since it was the first televised Falcons game in my market this season)I give all the credit to Mora and the coaching staff for really building a TEAM in Atlanta. Vick may be a great "athelete" and a threat with the ball, but I'm done buying the BS that this guy is a QB. He put up worse numbers today than Ben Roethlisberger - where is Ben's shoe deal and TV Commercial?!?I'm officially sick of having Mike Vick shoved down my throat.

When Ben leads his team to the same record that Vick has, then he'll get those endorsements(well, maybe not actually since the Steelers are probably better than a 2-10 team without Ben, so it won't be as impressive). Its about results, not statistics.

 

[jwvdcw]

I think this week's game REALLY showed how the Falcons are winning as a Team, and not necessarily because of Superman... er... Mike Vick.Two rushing TD's by Dunn and Duckett, and an interception return for a TD by the Defense. Oh, and don't forget the stellar 148 yards passing by the BEST QUARTERBACK IN THE LEAGUE?!?I was curious how the Falcons are really winning, so I watched the whole game today on TV. (since it was the first televised Falcons game in my market this season)I give all the credit to Mora and the coaching staff for really building a TEAM in Atlanta. Vick may be a great "athelete" and a threat with the ball, but I'm done buying the BS that this guy is a QB. He put up worse numbers today than Ben Roethlisberger - where is Ben's shoe deal and TV Commercial?!?I'm officially sick of having Mike Vick shoved down my throat.

Falcons are doing it with defense and a solid running game. Vick may actually be the weakest link on the team (yes i said it)

2-10 last year with the exact same RBs and pretty much exact same defense...hmmmmmmmm

 

[packersfan]

Its about results, not statistics.

Tell that to the Vick owners who drafted him far earlier than they should have based on all the hype this guy (mysteriously in my opinon given his passing limitations) continues to get. The guy was almost certainly drafted as a starting QB in every fantasy league but he's nothing more than a weak backup option at this point. I'm amazed I still see people starting this guy. Unless you're in a start 2 QB league, this guy simply should not be started in any league right now.

 

[rhawkins68]

Lets make that 16-7-1 with Vick and 2-10 without him. And btw....Arizona showed today that they're a lot better than many think, especially their defense which is one of the tops in the league imo.

Defense, Defense, Defense.Run, Run, Run.Until he gains accuracy he is not the great QB you make him out to be. Once again he barley get's 150 and had only a 55% completion rating.Now that Defense is something 2 picks 2 forced fumbles and a TD. I'm thinking that had more to do with it than Vick struggling (yes i said struggling). Also the O-line is looking great and opening up huge holes for the running game. I think Gibbs has alot to do with the winning right now also.Now on the last TD did Vick get the good return to setup the last Rushing TD? No, it was outstanding Special Teams play.

 

[rhawkins68]

I think this week's game REALLY showed how the Falcons are winning as a Team, and not necessarily because of Superman... er... Mike Vick.Two rushing TD's by Dunn and Duckett, and an interception return for a TD by the Defense. Oh, and don't forget the stellar 148 yards passing by the BEST QUARTERBACK IN THE LEAGUE?!?I was curious how the Falcons are really winning, so I watched the whole game today on TV. (since it was the first televised Falcons game in my market this season)I give all the credit to Mora and the coaching staff for really building a TEAM in Atlanta. Vick may be a great "athelete" and a threat with the ball, but I'm done buying the BS that this guy is a QB. He put up worse numbers today than Ben Roethlisberger - where is Ben's shoe deal and TV Commercial?!?I'm officially sick of having Mike Vick shoved down my throat.

Falcons are doing it with defense and a solid running game. Vick may actually be the weakest link on the team (yes i said it)

2-10 last year with the exact same RBs and pretty much exact same defense...hmmmmmmmm

But with a QB that was way below average. Sorta like Quinn i Chicago or going from Farve to whoever that was playing. You did lose your Starting QB which is going to drop your teams performance.So sure there was a drop off but Vick is not the sole reason that team is winning. You put Manning, Brady, Farve, McNabb, McNair, Pennigton, Green, Bulger, Kitna, CulPepper, Carr, Hasslebeck, Leftwich, Plummer, Johnson, Maddox, harrington, Palmer, Delhomme in there and your still winning. You could also make cases for other QB's doing good in that system. So realize what actually happened there.The difference you saw in the team was from a average starter to a below average backup-QB. With the majority of QB's listed above you don't get the close wins you've been seeing you get blow-outs.

 

[KevT]

I think this week's game REALLY showed how the Falcons are winning as a Team, and not necessarily because of Superman... er... Mike Vick.Two rushing TD's by Dunn and Duckett, and an interception return for a TD by the Defense.  Oh, and don't forget the stellar 148 yards passing by the BEST QUARTERBACK IN THE LEAGUE?!?I was curious how the Falcons are really winning, so I watched the whole game today on TV. (since it was the first televised Falcons game in my market this season)I give all the credit to Mora and the coaching staff for really building a TEAM in Atlanta.  Vick may be a great "athelete" and a threat with the ball, but I'm done buying the BS that this guy is a QB.  He put up worse numbers today than Ben Roethlisberger - where is Ben's shoe deal and TV Commercial?!?I'm officially sick of having Mike Vick shoved down my throat.

Falcons are doing it with defense and a solid running game. Vick may actually be the weakest link on the team (yes i said it)

2-10 last year with the exact same RBs and pretty much exact same defense...hmmmmmmmm

Let's see. Dan Reeves, Wade Phillips, 3-4 defense last year, Kerney was not on the line.This year, Jim Mora Jr., and everyone he brought with him, 4-3 defense now, Kerney was moved to the line, plus Coleman was added.This same team, even with Doug Johnson or Kittner, would be much better than 2-10.What you have on offense doesn't hurt/improve the defense that drastically, Miami is a great example. The Falcons D has improved drastically since last year. That is the main difference from last year. Another difference is Duckett not playing, he's a horrible blocker, Dunn is a better blocker. Atlanta's offensive line has improve greatly over last year.Those of you that are stuck on "Vick being the best QB," will never change your opinion until the media starts beating that into your head.JasonWilliamsVladeDivacChrisWebber, you said that no QB is expected to be good in his first or second year starting? Culpepper had a 40 TD year in his first year starting, but I guess since the media didn't cram him down our throats, the sheep never gathered.By the way, you might want to change your name now that only 1 of the 3 players in your name are still on the Kings.

 

[Demian]

Jim Mora Jr. not Vick

 

[rhawkins68]

Vick essentially makes the game a 8 on 11 ball game. Opposing defenses are forced to assign a spy and play their DEs conservatively on the edges. Heck, make it more like 6/7 on 11. Defenses have to worry so much about Vick's running ability that 4 or 5 guys #1 responsibility is to contain him. You can't teach that and it doesn't show up in the end of game stats. That is why Atlanta will win with Vick as the QB whether he has a good QB rating or not. That is why Dunn is having success and that is why Alge Crumpler is running wide open in the secondary. And that is why, with or without a good QB rating, Vick is one of the premier players in the NFL.Make no mistake, Vick is the absolute reason for their success. The Falcons have proven what kind of team they are with and without him.A lot of people on this board love fantasy football but they don't understand real football. Just know that they are two totally different things and reading the stat book, while a good exercise in fantasy football, is worthless in real football.

Your not making sense.1. Yes you spy vick but not with 4-5 guys. That's an absurd statement. Also Vick is not the first and not the last player in the NFL to require a spy. 2. What do you mean play the DE's conservatively on the edges. The first assigment is contaiment regardless of who you are playing against. If they do there jobs and stay home then Vick is not as big an issue.3. You do realize those 4-5 guys your assigning to Vick are there to stop the run anway, right? I promise you there not giving 5 guys the orders to ONLY spy on Vick. Get real it's not going to happen.4. Explain to me how having your De's do there Jobs and 1 spy allow Dunn & Ducket to go 5 yards untouched? Maybe it's the O-Line blocking? You do not assign spy duties to your De, DT. It is generally a LB. Therefore Vick has nothing to do with the Running game being better. 5. Crumpler is not the only TE to run free in the secondary in the NFL. Every team has player(s) that have single or loose coverage. This gives an offensive player some place a good chance of making a play. Vick is not the absoute reason for their success. That's an insult to the Defense that has kept them in games when he continues to have turn-overs and ball handling problems. They had a TD in Game 2, Forced 4 turn overs in a tight game 3 where Vick lost 2 and threw a pick (Sure everyone points out the 53 yard run at the end of the game as the big play). I say get a life and give the D credit not Vick (at least if you KNOW FOOTBALL). Let's see in gamve four the defense had 2 picks and a fumble recovery. That's an insult to the o-line that blows holes in the middle of the line. That pull make the block on the edge. yeah I love fantasy football but I also know how to play and coach football. So I realize Vick is over-rated as a QB not as an athlete. I realize that teams are not dedicating 4-5 players soley to stop Vick. But do have 11 players dediated to stop him.I realize that if 4-5 guys are spying to stop vick from running he should be having 300-400 yard passing games easily.I realize that spies are a VERY common thing against other teams. I realize that if Vick had more accuracy, thought more on his feet before running, that the falcons would be dominating in very lopsided victories of the magnitude of 21-28 points a game. I realize that if the D was not performing as well as it is right now they would not be sitting at 4-0. But more likely 2-2. I realize that Defense always gives up something. So letting crumpler have the short catches is ok versus spying Vick. They know he will not kill them consistantly on the deep ball. Plus the spy is not taken away from stopping the Running game or all short yardage throws. I realize that Vick is an average QB and is a differnce maker on the team. Just not as big as everyone here lets on.

 

[Big Sug]

Vick essentially makes the game a 8 on 11 ball game. Opposing defenses are forced to assign a spy and play their DEs conservatively on the edges. Heck, make it more like 6/7 on 11. Defenses have to worry so much about Vick's running ability that 4 or 5 guys #1 responsibility is to contain him. You can't teach that and it doesn't show up in the end of game stats. That is why Atlanta will win with Vick as the QB whether he has a good QB rating or not. That is why Dunn is having success and that is why Alge Crumpler is running wide open in the secondary. And that is why, with or without a good QB rating, Vick is one of the premier players in the NFL.Make no mistake, Vick is the absolute reason for their success. The Falcons have proven what kind of team they are with and without him.A lot of people on this board love fantasy football but they don't understand real football. Just know that they are two totally different things and reading the stat book, while a good exercise in fantasy football, is worthless in real football.

Best post in the thread. He changes the game so drastically that it makes the Falcons very difficult to deal with. Alge Crumpler is going to make a living for years based on the fact that as soon as Vick moves forward towards the line of scrimmage, 7-8 defensive players have no idea what to do.

 

[packersfan]

Vick essentially makes the game a 8 on 11 ball game. Opposing defenses are forced to assign a spy and play their DEs conservatively on the edges. Heck, make it more like 6/7 on 11. Defenses have to worry so much about Vick's running ability that 4 or 5 guys #1 responsibility is to contain him. You can't teach that and it doesn't show up in the end of game stats. That is why Atlanta will win with Vick as the QB whether he has a good QB rating or not. That is why Dunn is having success and that is why Alge Crumpler is running wide open in the secondary. And that is why, with or without a good QB rating, Vick is one of the premier players in the NFL.Make no mistake, Vick is the absolute reason for their success. The Falcons have proven what kind of team they are with and without him.A lot of people on this board love fantasy football but they don't understand real football. Just know that they are two totally different things and reading the stat book, while a good exercise in fantasy football, is worthless in real football.

Best post in the thread. He changes the game so drastically that it makes the Falcons very difficult to deal with. Alge Crumpler is going to make a living for years based on the fact that as soon as Vick moves forward towards the line of scrimmage, 7-8 defensive players have no idea what to do.

They know they don't have to cover the WRs because Vick can't get the ball to any of them.

 

[rhawkins68]

Vick essentially makes the game a 8 on 11 ball game. Opposing defenses are forced to assign a spy and play their DEs conservatively on the edges. Heck, make it more like 6/7 on 11. Defenses have to worry so much about Vick's running ability that 4 or 5 guys #1 responsibility is to contain him. You can't teach that and it doesn't show up in the end of game stats. That is why Atlanta will win with Vick as the QB whether he has a good QB rating or not. That is why Dunn is having success and that is why Alge Crumpler is running wide open in the secondary. And that is why, with or without a good QB rating, Vick is one of the premier players in the NFL.Make no mistake, Vick is the absolute reason for their success. The Falcons have proven what kind of team they are with and without him.A lot of people on this board love fantasy football but they don't understand real football. Just know that they are two totally different things and reading the stat book, while a good exercise in fantasy football, is worthless in real football.

Best post in the thread. He changes the game so drastically that it makes the Falcons very difficult to deal with. Alge Crumpler is going to make a living for years based on the fact that as soon as Vick moves forward towards the line of scrimmage, 7-8 defensive players have no idea what to do.

Yes they do if they are well coached. Vick doesn't change the game that much. The Db's are not going to release until he passes the line of scrimmage everyone else will be doing there job up front to contain the Run. As a defense you can give up three 15 yard runs by vick versus a one 45 yard passing strike from a passing QB.

 

[Big Sug]

He's changing the game in a big way, even though his downfield passing skills are not completely there yet.First of all, watch the defensive ends on running plays. They do not pursue Dunn at all because they've been told not to let Vick break containment on play-fake rollouts. This is giving Dunn, a player who is very good when isolated on a single defender, a lot of room to operate. This is working even (or especially) inside the 5 yard line, where RB's on most other teams have to really fight for yardage.Second, when they do roll Vick out, he usually can either get to the corner, which is an automatic 10+ yards, or get the defense to commit to him and dump it to Crumpler/Griffith. If (imo, when) Vick figures out how to throw it downfield, the Falcons are going to be putting on some offensive clinics. For now, I guess they just win games whenever he plays.

 

[rhawkins68]

He's changing the game in a big way, even though his downfield passing skills are not completely there yet.First of all, watch the defensive ends on running plays. They do not pursue Dunn at all because they've been told not to let Vick break containment on play-fake rollouts. This is giving Dunn, a player who is very good when isolated on a single defender, a lot of room to operate. This is working even (or especially) inside the 5 yard line, where RB's on most other teams have to really fight for yardage.Second, when they do roll Vick out, he usually can either get to the corner, which is an automatic 10+ yards, or get the defense to commit to him and dump it to Crumpler/Griffith. If (imo, when) Vick figures out how to throw it downfield, the Falcons are going to be putting on some offensive clinics. For now, I guess they just win games whenever he plays.

The defense is winning the Games not Vick. Please get that right.Vick is doing nothing differnt than other scrambling QB's of the past did. Sure he's a good runnner but it's nothing new.It is the DE's job to contain against the Play-fake, Reverse, etc. They should not be prusuing unless there are certain the ball is moving upfield. They do nothing special against Vick. It's there job against all teams period unless the defensive play calls for someone else to contain then they are doing there jobs.

 

[Rhino]

... He throws the ball less than 20 times a game, are you expecting 300 yards out of that?I think he's looked very good as a passer this year thus far, albeit most of them are dink and dunks.But you wont see Vick air it out this year until he absolutely has to. And right now, its not neccessary because they are winning with Running and Defense. Period.When they need Vick to win them a game, he will. Trust me. ...

You're making the arguement for the defense right there. "They are winning with Running and Defense. Period." They aren't winning with Michael Vick's contributions to the team - they are winning with everyone else's.At this point, it's impossible to try to remove the blinders that the Vick-faithfull have on. With a 4-0 record you can hardly argue with the results. But the fact is there are words being thrown around to describe Vick which are completely inaccurate:"Premier Player", "freakin' STUD", "once in a lifetime talent"...Someone please show me the stats to back up these claims. Team winning records and results alone do not make Michael Vick - the individual - a great player because those are TEAM acheivements. Put Michael Vick alone on a field opposite 11 other players and he's dead meat. He needs his team as much as they need him. If you want to argue that Vick is an "amazing talent" or a "premier player" then compare his numbers to that of quaterbacks who are unquestionably considered the best - you'll find Vick is nowhere near in that category.People are so blinded by the freak show of a quarterback running 80 yards for a touchdown that they forget - It's Not the Quarterback's JOB to run for 120 yards in a game! that's what running backs are for!?!This is Vick's fourth year in the league. Argueably third since he lost most of last season to an injury. These are his career stats thus farassing:G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Rate 32 25 713 378 53.0 4911 6.89 74 24 16 76.8 Rushing:G GS Att Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ FD32 25 217 1543 7.1 58 10 20 85As a Rusher he's averaging about 750 yds a season. (given 16 games = one season) Not the production you would call "premier". But then he's not supposed to be a rusher, is he?!? And as a Passer... lets just say those stats hardly qualify someone as one of the greatest in the game. Again, given a 16 game season, he's averaging less than 2500 yards a season and 12 TDs.I'm not sure how else to look at this. This has nothing to do with Fantasy Football - I don't own Vick and could care less what his fantasy production is. I just want some justification as to why people want to put him in the same category as quarterbacks whose teams have enjoyed the same success as the Falcons, yet those quarterbacks have managed to post statistics that dwarf Michael Vick's?!? Culpepper, McNabb, Favre, Brady, Manning - all these guys' teams are winning as much if not more than the Falcons - and the QB's stats reflect that success.

 

[Big Sug]

The difference between Vick and scrambling QBs of the past is that Vick is the best open field runner in the NFL. You are giving up a large chunk of yards, maybe a huge play, not just 5-10 yards, if you let him get away.Vick is opening up their running game and also making the defense better by keeping them off the field (yes, i know he didn't do this in the Arizona game--that game was just handed to the Falcons). They are 4-0 with pretty much the same personnel as last year, with one major exception--starting QB. Vick is the difference.

 

[Demian]

Jim Mora Jr. not Vick

^|

 

[jwvdcw]

Its about results, not statistics.

Tell that to the Vick owners who drafted him far earlier than they should have based on all the hype this guy (mysteriously in my opinon given his passing limitations) continues to get. The guy was almost certainly drafted as a starting QB in every fantasy league but he's nothing more than a weak backup option at this point. I'm amazed I still see people starting this guy. Unless you're in a start 2 QB league, this guy simply should not be started in any league right now.

I'm not talking about this from a fantasy perspective. I'm(we're) rating Vick as an NFL QB. Do you really think he cares about how you do in your fantasy league or is he just trying to win football games for his team?

 

[mojorizin]

He's the prototype of the perfect flag-football QB, and I'd love to have him on the squad. If I were looking for an NFLer to lead my team he wouldn't be it.

 

[jwvdcw]

Lets make that 16-7-1 with Vick and 2-10 without him. And btw....Arizona showed today that they're a lot better than many think, especially their defense which is one of the tops in the league imo.

Defense, Defense, Defense.Run, Run, Run.Until he gains accuracy he is not the great QB you make him out to be. Once again he barley get's 150 and had only a 55% completion rating.Now that Defense is something 2 picks 2 forced fumbles and a TD. I'm thinking that had more to do with it than Vick struggling (yes i said struggling). Also the O-line is looking great and opening up huge holes for the running game. I think Gibbs has alot to do with the winning right now also.Now on the last TD did Vick get the good return to setup the last Rushing TD? No, it was outstanding Special Teams play.

So you're now giving credit to the coaches, WHO WEREN'T THERE 2 YEARS AGO WHEN THE FALCONS WENT INTO THE 2ND ROUND OF THE PLAYOFFS. My friend, any way you look at it, the Falcons have always played great or very good with Vick and terrible without him. You can keep on giving credit to different people, but the above fact won't change.

 

[rhawkins68]

The difference between Vick and scrambling QBs of the past is that Vick is the best open field runner in the NFL. You are giving up a large chunk of yards, maybe a huge play, not just 5-10 yards, if you let him get away.Vick is opening up their running game and also making the defense better by keeping them off the field (yes, i know he didn't do this in the Arizona game--that game was just handed to the Falcons). They are 4-0 with pretty much the same personnel as last year, with one major exception--starting QB. Vick is the difference.

Your basically saying that there trying to keep Vick from running. In doing that your also containing the rest of the running game and SHOULD be opening up the passing game. Not the running game.

 

[rhawkins68]

Lets make that 16-7-1 with Vick and 2-10 without him. And btw....Arizona showed today that they're a lot better than many think, especially their defense which is one of the tops in the league imo.

Defense, Defense, Defense.Run, Run, Run.Until he gains accuracy he is not the great QB you make him out to be. Once again he barley get's 150 and had only a 55% completion rating.Now that Defense is something 2 picks 2 forced fumbles and a TD. I'm thinking that had more to do with it than Vick struggling (yes i said struggling). Also the O-line is looking great and opening up huge holes for the running game. I think Gibbs has alot to do with the winning right now also.Now on the last TD did Vick get the good return to setup the last Rushing TD? No, it was outstanding Special Teams play.

So you're now giving credit to the coaches, WHO WEREN'T THERE 2 YEARS AGO WHEN THE FALCONS WENT INTO THE 2ND ROUND OF THE PLAYOFFS. My friend, any way you look at it, the Falcons have always played great or very good with Vick and terrible without him. You can keep on giving credit to different people, but the above fact won't change.

I never said Vick wasn't a difference maker. He does make a differnce over the so called backup QB's they have. There is a huge drop off there. But make no mistake he has barely helped the Falcons win this year and tried to give the game to Arizona. The running game and defense are doing it. Not him. An average QB can win games with Great defense or a great supporting cast. You don't like comparing to other not so great QB's that have won the super bowl or had excellent records. Like the 2000 Ravens with Dilfer & Banks. Also, in the games he was out there was the same % of blow-outs with Vick in or out. Otherwise all games were close enough to where going from a backup that will never be a starting QB to an average Starter made a big difference.You must look at the entire Team when factoring a winning record. Not individual players.

 

[Big Sug]

The difference between Vick and scrambling QBs of the past is that Vick is the best open field runner in the NFL. You are giving up a large chunk of yards, maybe a huge play, not just 5-10 yards, if you let him get away.Vick is opening up their running game and also making the defense better by keeping them off the field (yes, i know he didn't do this in the Arizona game--that game was just handed to the Falcons). They are 4-0 with pretty much the same personnel as last year, with one major exception--starting QB. Vick is the difference.

Your basically saying that there trying to keep Vick from running. In doing that your also containing the rest of the running game and SHOULD be opening up the passing game. Not the running game.

No, Vick is opening up their RUNNING game. When Vick runs (and many times passes), he is attacking the edges. The threat of Vick getting outside is keeping outside defenders at home, and as a result there is no backside pursuit on your basic, run of the mill off tackle run. This opens up running lanes and room for cutbacks. This also makes Warrick Dunn happy.

 

[rhawkins68]

The difference between Vick and scrambling QBs of the past is that Vick is the best open field runner in the NFL. You are giving up a large chunk of yards, maybe a huge play, not just 5-10 yards, if you let him get away.Vick is opening up their running game and also making the defense better by keeping them off the field (yes, i know he didn't do this in the Arizona game--that game was just handed to the Falcons). They are 4-0 with pretty much the same personnel as last year, with one major exception--starting QB. Vick is the difference.

Your basically saying that there trying to keep Vick from running. In doing that your also containing the rest of the running game and SHOULD be opening up the passing game. Not the running game.

No, Vick is opening up their RUNNING game. When Vick runs (and many times passes), he is attacking the edges. The threat of Vick getting outside is keeping outside defenders at home, and as a result there is no backside pursuit on your basic, run of the mill off tackle run. This opens up running lanes and room for cutbacks. This also makes Warrick Dunn happy.

Edit to add more detailVick running to the edges does not open up the interior. The outside guys are SUPPOSED to stay home. If a team is running up the middle, off tackle it will be shown immediatly. They are not stacking the edges against Vick. Backside pursuit is a bad thing. When your coaching pursuit your ends should not cross the Tackles and even going that deep untill the play is committed is not a good thing. Also backside pursuit will not catch an off-tackle play if the Ends are containing properly. That is a fast developing play. Backside pursuit is more likely to catch a counter as is should.