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Toby Gerhart - dynasty buy? (1 Viewer)

This video is also a pretty good showcase of his mobility:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-gIJea6J2c

Those are not LeSean McCoy jukes, but the guy is more than just a straight-line bruiser. He has just enough wiggle to be tricky. And bear in mind that he weighs 231 and packs a wallop, so you can't really expect to see Reggie Bush or Darren Sproles moves from him. For his build and size, he moves well. The combine numbers are a reflection of that. Stack him up against Jeremy Hill, LeVeon Bell, Eddie Lacy, Carlos Hyde, and Andre Williams. He comes out looking pretty good.

 
Nothing against Gerhart but just a feeling that Storm Johnson become the starting RB this year and worthy of a FF RB2 slot.

 
Top 15 redraft back? :popcorn:
I think he is a top 15 dynasty back to be honest. Here is who I like better: 1. McCoy2. Charles3. Foster4. ADP5. Forte6. Murray7. Lynch8. Martin (but he now has solid competition)9. CJ (barely...not at all sure things will work in NY)10. Matthews11. Spiller12. Sankey And after this it gets hard to pick guys above him.
Big fan of Gerhart but would still add several above him here, like Lacy, Bell, Gio...
Gio has a lot of competition for carries from the Law Firm and the rook. That being said, I would put both Lacy and Bell on that list and take Sankey off. 5'10" and 203 but close to 4.5 40 time? No thanks. Great opportunity, but those metrics do not bode well for longevity in the NFL. Daryl Richardson 2.o
Sankey is 209, not 203. Pretty big difference there, no pun intended. Sankey absolutely belongs above Gerhart.Gerhart is looking like a solid bet in redraft. Dodged all the major bullets in the draft and a great supporting cast is being built around him.
NFL.com and CBS Sportsline list him at 209. ESPN and his college website lists him at 203. Not sure which is correct.

 
Read the book, "The Sports Gene: Inside the Science of Extraordinary Athletic Performance"

David Epstein. Genetics have a massive part to do with the baseline level of athleticism and overall body type an athlete starts with. How many European (read: white) people have a quick-twitch, mesomorphic (naturally muscular with low body fat) body type vs people of African descent? Not surprisingly, having this body type lends itself to success in the NFL.
IMO this would explain the rate of players getting to the NFL, but are you taking the position that this can be extended to players such as Gerhart that he won't perform as well as a result?
Not at all. Just that the percentages are vastly different that a person with the genetics of European descent can make it, much less be elite vs a population that is genetically superior for the purposes of playing a quick-twitch sport that requires a high ratio of muscle to body fat. The population with more mesomorphs will have more potential candidates. Just like a large percentage of super-elite sprinters come from one area of Jamaica and that elite runnersare frequently hail from Kenya. It has to do with body-type and genetics. I don't consider that to be racist in the least but a factual discussion of genetics and success in various sports.

 
More on that:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100709-valence-france-christophe-lemaitre-100-metre-dash-under-ten-seconds/

By running 100 metres in 9.98sec Friday 19-year old French sprinter Christophe Lemaitre not only set a national record, he became the first person genetically of European origin to officially cover the distance in less than 10 seconds.

The breakthough came at the French national athletics championship in the southwestern city of Valence.

Paradoxically, what makes this feat remarkable is not how few athletes have shattered the 10-second barrier but how many: 71, according to an AFP tally.

All but one of these 100m sprinters -- starting with US trailblazer Jim Hines, who clocked 9.95 at the 1968 Mexico Olympics -- have been of recent African origin, overwhelmingly from the western part of the continent.

Before Lemaitre, the one exception was Patrick Johnson, born of an Irish father and an indigenous Australian mother.

The sheer number, and near-monopoly, of under-ten-second performances linked to Africa are more than a simple coincidence or statistical anomaly, say experts.

But exactly what mix factors has led to this outcome remains a puzzle.

"At the highest levels of athletic performance everything matters," said Daniel MacArthur, a researcher at the Institute for Neuromuscular Research at The Children's Hospital at Westmead in Sydney.

"In order to compete against the best of the best, you need to have the right attitude, the right diet, the right training and the right genes," he told AFP.

One explanation that does not hold water, scientists agree, is race.

The idea that the colour of one's skin is somehow related to innate ability is now recognized as an invidious cultural artifact that simply does not correspond to genetic reality.

"Scientifically, it is a discredited notion," said Robert Scott, a researcher at the Institute of Metabolic Science in Cambridge, England who has explored the genetic determinants of elite athletic performance.

"There is more genetic diversity within small areas of east Africa than in most of Europe," he told AFP in an e-mail exchange.

But that does not mean that genes are not an ingredient -- perhaps even the key ingredient -- in the recipe for super-elite sprinters, and the reason so many share west African roots, Scott and others say.

Indeed, a flurry of research in the last decade has uncovered several genetic variants that impact the ability to move with explosive speed.

First on the list is ACTN3, a gene which determines whether the body produces the protein giving rise to so-called "fast-twitch" muscle fibres that have been shown to favour top-level performances in sprinting.

The genes are either locked on or off, which means humans have one of three possible genetic endowments: a double "RR" or single "RX" compliment of fast-twitch producing protein, or the so-called "XX" or "null" variant, which yields none at all.

In non-elite athletes, the gap between having an active or silent variant is imperceptibly small when it comes to performance, studies have shown.

But when the human body nudges against its absolute limits, it can mean the difference between victory or defeat -- or between 10.01 and 9.99 in the 100 metres.

"Of the dozens of Olympic-level sprinters who have been tested for this gene so far, only a few have been found to possess the 'non-sprint' version," said MacArthur.

But the question still remains: why do runners of African origin so thoroughly dominate the top of the game?

Part of the answer, at least, lies in the distribution of these "fast" genes across the globe.

On an evolutionary time scale we are all children of Africa, the cradle of the human species.

But as homo sapiens spread, sub-populations settled and became isolated, resulting in hundreds of genetically concentrated diseases and traits, including ACTN3.

"DNA analysis carried out on 200 Jamaican Olympians ... show that 80 percent have the 'strong' 577RR variant," notes Rachel Irving, a researcher at the University of West Indies and co-author of a recent study examining the genotypes in top-level Jamaican and US sprinters.

Led by world record holder Usain Bolt, Jamaica garnered six gold, three silver and two bronze medals at the Beijing Olympics, all in sprinting events.

Only one-to-two percent of west Africans have the 'weak' XX variant, compared to 18 percent in the United States, 20 percent in Europe and 25 percent in Asia.
I don't see how any of this refutes the idea that one freakish white guy can be successful. Most good, tall WRs in the NFL are black. That hasn't stopped Jordy Nelson from being successful. Gerhart seems to have the right tool kit needed to be a solid NFL starter, so the fact that he's white is irrelevant at this point.

 
Agreed, Toby is in a great position to succeed this season. I am sure I will draft him a few times.

I generally just play the odds for dynasty. Odds were against him getting this far. Good luck to Toby and his dynasty owners. I hope he has a long career for Jacksonville. :)

 
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While we wait for Jimmy the Greek to weigh in here... I'll add that (and this could be just a stab in the dark) they may have drafted Johnson to give Bortles someone in the backfield with him that he's familiar with.

You don't draft starting RBs in the 7th round. But you can add depth, and why not make it a player that your franchise QB has a rapport with.

 
It was said here because he's white he cannot play or not well enough to be drafted in FF ... I said if the same thing was said about, oh I dunno, BRIDGEWATER .... What would y'all say?

He's a black QB, it's been proven white QBs are just better at the posits inion, like you're swing blacks are better at RB, right ?

How about this ... Ignore skin color, let them play on these field and IF blacks play one position better and IF whites play another better and IF browns and yellows play other positions better, we call it as it is and let it be what it is, no throwing race cards ?

 
It was said here because he's white he cannot play or not well enough to be drafted in FF ... I said if the same thing was said about, oh I dunno, BRIDGEWATER .... What would y'all say?

He's a black QB, it's been proven white QBs are just better at the posits inion, like you're swing blacks are better at RB, right ?

How about this ... Ignore skin color, let them play on these field and IF blacks play one position better and IF whites play another better and IF browns and yellows play other positions better, we call it as it is and let it be what it is, no throwing race cards ?
I am pretty sure it is one guy...

 
It was said here because he's white he cannot play or not well enough to be drafted in FF ... I said if the same thing was said about, oh I dunno, BRIDGEWATER .... What would y'all say?

He's a black QB, it's been proven white QBs are just better at the posits inion, like you're swing blacks are better at RB, right ?

How about this ... Ignore skin color, let them play on these field and IF blacks play one position better and IF whites play another better and IF browns and yellows play other positions better, we call it as it is and let it be what it is, no throwing race cards ?
Just to be clear, I wasn't I trying to play any "race" cards nor did I say Gerhart could not play. Sorry if it came across that way. The whole topic of genetics in sport is very interesting to me, which is why I bought the Sports Gene book (cool article about it) and piped in here. I just accept on basic principle that people are equal as human beings regardless of color while also accepting that certain genetic subsets (whether white or black or whatever) are advantaged for specific athletic pursuits at an elite level.

 
More on that:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100709-valence-france-christophe-lemaitre-100-metre-dash-under-ten-seconds/

By running 100 metres in 9.98sec Friday 19-year old French sprinter Christophe Lemaitre not only set a national record, he became the first person genetically of European origin to officially cover the distance in less than 10 seconds.

The breakthough came at the French national athletics championship in the southwestern city of Valence.

Paradoxically, what makes this feat remarkable is not how few athletes have shattered the 10-second barrier but how many: 71, according to an AFP tally.

All but one of these 100m sprinters -- starting with US trailblazer Jim Hines, who clocked 9.95 at the 1968 Mexico Olympics -- have been of recent African origin, overwhelmingly from the western part of the continent.

Before Lemaitre, the one exception was Patrick Johnson, born of an Irish father and an indigenous Australian mother.

The sheer number, and near-monopoly, of under-ten-second performances linked to Africa are more than a simple coincidence or statistical anomaly, say experts.

But exactly what mix factors has led to this outcome remains a puzzle.

"At the highest levels of athletic performance everything matters," said Daniel MacArthur, a researcher at the Institute for Neuromuscular Research at The Children's Hospital at Westmead in Sydney.

"In order to compete against the best of the best, you need to have the right attitude, the right diet, the right training and the right genes," he told AFP.

One explanation that does not hold water, scientists agree, is race.

The idea that the colour of one's skin is somehow related to innate ability is now recognized as an invidious cultural artifact that simply does not correspond to genetic reality.

"Scientifically, it is a discredited notion," said Robert Scott, a researcher at the Institute of Metabolic Science in Cambridge, England who has explored the genetic determinants of elite athletic performance.

"There is more genetic diversity within small areas of east Africa than in most of Europe," he told AFP in an e-mail exchange.

But that does not mean that genes are not an ingredient -- perhaps even the key ingredient -- in the recipe for super-elite sprinters, and the reason so many share west African roots, Scott and others say.

Indeed, a flurry of research in the last decade has uncovered several genetic variants that impact the ability to move with explosive speed.

First on the list is ACTN3, a gene which determines whether the body produces the protein giving rise to so-called "fast-twitch" muscle fibres that have been shown to favour top-level performances in sprinting.

The genes are either locked on or off, which means humans have one of three possible genetic endowments: a double "RR" or single "RX" compliment of fast-twitch producing protein, or the so-called "XX" or "null" variant, which yields none at all.

In non-elite athletes, the gap between having an active or silent variant is imperceptibly small when it comes to performance, studies have shown.

But when the human body nudges against its absolute limits, it can mean the difference between victory or defeat -- or between 10.01 and 9.99 in the 100 metres.

"Of the dozens of Olympic-level sprinters who have been tested for this gene so far, only a few have been found to possess the 'non-sprint' version," said MacArthur.

But the question still remains: why do runners of African origin so thoroughly dominate the top of the game?

Part of the answer, at least, lies in the distribution of these "fast" genes across the globe.

On an evolutionary time scale we are all children of Africa, the cradle of the human species.

But as homo sapiens spread, sub-populations settled and became isolated, resulting in hundreds of genetically concentrated diseases and traits, including ACTN3.

"DNA analysis carried out on 200 Jamaican Olympians ... show that 80 percent have the 'strong' 577RR variant," notes Rachel Irving, a researcher at the University of West Indies and co-author of a recent study examining the genotypes in top-level Jamaican and US sprinters.

Led by world record holder Usain Bolt, Jamaica garnered six gold, three silver and two bronze medals at the Beijing Olympics, all in sprinting events.

Only one-to-two percent of west Africans have the 'weak' XX variant, compared to 18 percent in the United States, 20 percent in Europe and 25 percent in Asia.
I don't see how any of this refutes the idea that one freakish white guy can be successful. Most good, tall WRs in the NFL are black. That hasn't stopped Jordy Nelson from being successful. Gerhart seems to have the right tool kit needed to be a solid NFL starter, so the fact that he's white is irrelevant at this point.
So the article says that black guys are better athletes, but it's not because they are black, it's because they are genetically different. Not sure exactly what that means.I agree there will be a white RB at some point that makes it. Toby had a decent chance. But most seem to agree that blacks are genetically superior for the position, so why is it so outrageous to say Toby has to prove it before I believe it?

 
Leroy's Aces

I know, but if what you said was about a black QB not being draftable (not because of performance, but on color of skin) .... that WOULD be racist

The double standard is sick in this world today

 
More on that:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100709-valence-france-christophe-lemaitre-100-metre-dash-under-ten-seconds/

By running 100 metres in 9.98sec Friday 19-year old French sprinter Christophe Lemaitre not only set a national record, he became the first person genetically of European origin to officially cover the distance in less than 10 seconds.

The breakthough came at the French national athletics championship in the southwestern city of Valence.

Paradoxically, what makes this feat remarkable is not how few athletes have shattered the 10-second barrier but how many: 71, according to an AFP tally.

All but one of these 100m sprinters -- starting with US trailblazer Jim Hines, who clocked 9.95 at the 1968 Mexico Olympics -- have been of recent African origin, overwhelmingly from the western part of the continent.

Before Lemaitre, the one exception was Patrick Johnson, born of an Irish father and an indigenous Australian mother.

The sheer number, and near-monopoly, of under-ten-second performances linked to Africa are more than a simple coincidence or statistical anomaly, say experts.

But exactly what mix factors has led to this outcome remains a puzzle.

"At the highest levels of athletic performance everything matters," said Daniel MacArthur, a researcher at the Institute for Neuromuscular Research at The Children's Hospital at Westmead in Sydney.

"In order to compete against the best of the best, you need to have the right attitude, the right diet, the right training and the right genes," he told AFP.

One explanation that does not hold water, scientists agree, is race.

The idea that the colour of one's skin is somehow related to innate ability is now recognized as an invidious cultural artifact that simply does not correspond to genetic reality.

"Scientifically, it is a discredited notion," said Robert Scott, a researcher at the Institute of Metabolic Science in Cambridge, England who has explored the genetic determinants of elite athletic performance.

"There is more genetic diversity within small areas of east Africa than in most of Europe," he told AFP in an e-mail exchange.

But that does not mean that genes are not an ingredient -- perhaps even the key ingredient -- in the recipe for super-elite sprinters, and the reason so many share west African roots, Scott and others say.

Indeed, a flurry of research in the last decade has uncovered several genetic variants that impact the ability to move with explosive speed.

First on the list is ACTN3, a gene which determines whether the body produces the protein giving rise to so-called "fast-twitch" muscle fibres that have been shown to favour top-level performances in sprinting.

The genes are either locked on or off, which means humans have one of three possible genetic endowments: a double "RR" or single "RX" compliment of fast-twitch producing protein, or the so-called "XX" or "null" variant, which yields none at all.

In non-elite athletes, the gap between having an active or silent variant is imperceptibly small when it comes to performance, studies have shown.

But when the human body nudges against its absolute limits, it can mean the difference between victory or defeat -- or between 10.01 and 9.99 in the 100 metres.

"Of the dozens of Olympic-level sprinters who have been tested for this gene so far, only a few have been found to possess the 'non-sprint' version," said MacArthur.

But the question still remains: why do runners of African origin so thoroughly dominate the top of the game?

Part of the answer, at least, lies in the distribution of these "fast" genes across the globe.

On an evolutionary time scale we are all children of Africa, the cradle of the human species.

But as homo sapiens spread, sub-populations settled and became isolated, resulting in hundreds of genetically concentrated diseases and traits, including ACTN3.

"DNA analysis carried out on 200 Jamaican Olympians ... show that 80 percent have the 'strong' 577RR variant," notes Rachel Irving, a researcher at the University of West Indies and co-author of a recent study examining the genotypes in top-level Jamaican and US sprinters.

Led by world record holder Usain Bolt, Jamaica garnered six gold, three silver and two bronze medals at the Beijing Olympics, all in sprinting events.

Only one-to-two percent of west Africans have the 'weak' XX variant, compared to 18 percent in the United States, 20 percent in Europe and 25 percent in Asia.
I don't see how any of this refutes the idea that one freakish white guy can be successful. Most good, tall WRs in the NFL are black. That hasn't stopped Jordy Nelson from being successful. Gerhart seems to have the right tool kit needed to be a solid NFL starter, so the fact that he's white is irrelevant at this point.
So the article says that black guys are better athletes, but it's not because they are black, it's because they are genetically different. Not sure exactly what that means.I agree there will be a white RB at some point that makes it. Toby had a decent chance. But most seem to agree that blacks are genetically superior for the position, so why is it so outrageous to say Toby has to prove it before I believe it?
There HAVE been white RBs that have made it - obviously the numbers are low though. If you want me to list them, I'm not sure why you're even in a football chat in May though, since you are obviously not a fan.

You are also missing the point that Gerhart has already shown that he is a capable NFL RB, albeit not over the course of a full season, but he has started a handful of games and has filled in for Peterson admirably. He was also a Hesiman trophy candidate that out up huge numbers in a major college conference and was a second round NFL draft pick - do teams spend second round picks on players that can't play the position they were drafted to play?

I'm sure there's footage you can watch on the Internet, some of it has been linked here, to show you he can play if you wanted to bother.

 
Nothing against Gerhart but just a feeling that Storm Johnson become the starting RB this year and worthy of a FF RB2 slot.
Really not understanding on how a moderately regarded 7th round pick is having this type of expectation
typical rookie hype.

Storm will be lucky #1 to make the team, its no guarantee that 7th rounders do, and hes currently 4th on the depth chart, not 2nd. Behind Gerhardt, Todamn, and Dernard Robinson who Jax has turned exlusively into a RB

 
Leroy's Aces

I know, but if what you said was about a black QB not being draftable (not because of performance, but on color of skin) .... that WOULD be racist

The double standard is sick in this world today
You equate genetic advantage with me making a race discussion. It really isn't. A 7 footer in hoops has a genetic advantage nor matter what race he is. A hitter in baseball with 20/10 vision has an advantage. A running back that naturally is very muscular and lean has a genetic advantage. Michael Phelps had a genetic advantage due to his super-long arms and short legs.Sorry to derail the topic. I also don't put much stock into Storm Johnson vs Gerhart or even Todman. Gerhart does have excellent measurables and a history of NFL success on limited carries.

 
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Leroy's Aces

I know, but if what you said was about a black QB not being draftable (not because of performance, but on color of skin) .... that WOULD be racist

The double standard is sick in this world today
You equate genetic advantage with me making a race discussion. It really isn't. A 7 footer in hoops has a genetic advantage nor matter what race he is. A hitter in baseball with 20/10 vision has an advantage. A running back that naturally is very muscular and lean has a genetic advantage. Michael Phelps had a genetic advantage due to his super-long arms and short legs.Sorry to derail the topic. I also don't put much stock into Storm Johnson vs Gerhart or even Todman. Gerhart does have excellent measurables and a history of NFL success on limited carries.
Just for the record, Leroy's Aces was not the one guy I was referring to. I found the link you shared interesting. On face, I don't think there is anything wrong with that evidence - the issue (in football and in life) becomes when certain people construe population averages as arguments against specific persons despite evidence to the contrary.

 
cdubz said:
Leroy said:
Stealthycat said:
Leroy's Aces

I know, but if what you said was about a black QB not being draftable (not because of performance, but on color of skin) .... that WOULD be racist

The double standard is sick in this world today
You equate genetic advantage with me making a race discussion. It really isn't. A 7 footer in hoops has a genetic advantage nor matter what race he is. A hitter in baseball with 20/10 vision has an advantage. A running back that naturally is very muscular and lean has a genetic advantage. Michael Phelps had a genetic advantage due to his super-long arms and short legs.Sorry to derail the topic. I also don't put much stock into Storm Johnson vs Gerhart or even Todman. Gerhart does have excellent measurables and a history of NFL success on limited carries.
Just for the record, Leroy's Aces was not the one guy I was referring to. I found the link you shared interesting. On face, I don't think there is anything wrong with that evidence - the issue (in football and in life) becomes when certain people construe population averages as arguments against specific persons despite evidence to the contrary.
So you agree with the data, you agree that generally, blacks have a physical advantage, you agree there have been EXTREMELY few successful white RBs in the NFL in the past 20 years, but if I say Toby needs to prove it first before I believe it, then I'm a racist?
 
So you agree with the data, you agree that generally, blacks have a physical advantage, you agree there have been EXTREMELY few successful white RBs in the NFL in the past 20 years, but if I say Toby needs to prove it first before I believe it, then I'm a racist?
Are we not allowed to say that we don't think Toby will be successful because he's white? It seems OK to talk about BMI (guys that weigh x don't succeed at RB) or speed (guys that run y in the 40 don't succeed), or stats (guys who average z yards per carry on one team don't succeed on another), but if we bring up race (white guys don't succeed at RB), we get chastised.

Well, Toby's measurables may look good, he may have a good history, but I'm going to say he will not succeed because of his race. He will not be a top 15 RB this year (and he may get close by sheer volume), and he will not be starting the following year.

It is just so rare to see a good, starting white RB that I can't believe it until I see it. If I miss out, so be it.
When you evaluate someone entirely based on race and ignore the other factors. Then yes, I strongly disagree with that line of thinking. People can choose their own labels for that way of thinking.

 
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So you agree with the data, you agree that generally, blacks have a physical advantage, you agree there have been EXTREMELY few successful white RBs in the NFL in the past 20 years, but if I say Toby needs to prove it first before I believe it, then I'm a racist?
Are we not allowed to say that we don't think Toby will be successful because he's white? It seems OK to talk about BMI (guys that weigh x don't succeed at RB) or speed (guys that run y in the 40 don't succeed), or stats (guys who average z yards per carry on one team don't succeed on another), but if we bring up race (white guys don't succeed at RB), we get chastised.

Well, Toby's measurables may look good, he may have a good history, but I'm going to say he will not succeed because of his race. He will not be a top 15 RB this year (and he may get close by sheer volume), and he will not be starting the following year.

It is just so rare to see a good, starting white RB that I can't believe it until I see it. If I miss out, so be it.
When you evaluate someone entirely based on race and ignore the other factors. Then yes, I strongly disagree with that line of thinking. People can choose their own labels for that way of thinking.
Ok. I'm just really curious what reasons the Toby fans will give when he's not starting in 2015. The odds are stacked against the guy. We'll see what happens.
 
So you agree with the data, you agree that generally, blacks have a physical advantage, you agree there have been EXTREMELY few successful white RBs in the NFL in the past 20 years, but if I say Toby needs to prove it first before I believe it, then I'm a racist?
Are we not allowed to say that we don't think Toby will be successful because he's white? It seems OK to talk about BMI (guys that weigh x don't succeed at RB) or speed (guys that run y in the 40 don't succeed), or stats (guys who average z yards per carry on one team don't succeed on another), but if we bring up race (white guys don't succeed at RB), we get chastised.

Well, Toby's measurables may look good, he may have a good history, but I'm going to say he will not succeed because of his race. He will not be a top 15 RB this year (and he may get close by sheer volume), and he will not be starting the following year.

It is just so rare to see a good, starting white RB that I can't believe it until I see it. If I miss out, so be it.
When you evaluate someone entirely based on race and ignore the other factors. Then yes, I strongly disagree with that line of thinking. People can choose their own labels for that way of thinking.
Ok. I'm just really curious what reasons the Toby fans will give when he's not starting in 2015. The odds are stacked against the guy. We'll see what happens.
IMO if he fails, he fails based on his merits as a RB. Not because of his skin color.

 
So you agree with the data, you agree that generally, blacks have a physical advantage, you agree there have been EXTREMELY few successful white RBs in the NFL in the past 20 years, but if I say Toby needs to prove it first before I believe it, then I'm a racist?
Are we not allowed to say that we don't think Toby will be successful because he's white? It seems OK to talk about BMI (guys that weigh x don't succeed at RB) or speed (guys that run y in the 40 don't succeed), or stats (guys who average z yards per carry on one team don't succeed on another), but if we bring up race (white guys don't succeed at RB), we get chastised.

Well, Toby's measurables may look good, he may have a good history, but I'm going to say he will not succeed because of his race. He will not be a top 15 RB this year (and he may get close by sheer volume), and he will not be starting the following year.

It is just so rare to see a good, starting white RB that I can't believe it until I see it. If I miss out, so be it.
When you evaluate someone entirely based on race and ignore the other factors. Then yes, I strongly disagree with that line of thinking. People can choose their own labels for that way of thinking.
Ok. I'm just really curious what reasons the Toby fans will give when he's not starting in 2015. The odds are stacked against the guy. We'll see what happens.
It's interesting/sad that you would see his failure as an inditement on his race playing the position rather than a failure of one player and/or team.

 
Are we not allowed to say that we don't think Toby will be successful because he's white? It seems OK to talk about BMI (guys that weigh x don't succeed at RB) or speed (guys that run y in the 40 don't succeed), or stats (guys who average z yards per carry on one team don't succeed on another), but if we bring up race (white guys don't succeed at RB), we get chastised.

Well, Toby's measurables may look good, he may have a good history, but I'm going to say he will not succeed because of his race. He will not be a top 15 RB this year (and he may get close by sheer volume), and he will not be starting the following year.

It is just so rare to see a good, starting white RB that I can't believe it until I see it. If I miss out, so be it.
While we're picking random things to point to that have no bearing on his performance to determine the likelihood of his future success, I can't think of any Hall of Fame running back named "Toby". Perhaps he should change his name to "Tony"... then he'd have a chance...
Why do you think there are no starting white RBs or cornerbacks in the NFL? Random chance?
Because Jason Sehorn retired?

Some anonymous NFL owner said the same thing about redheaded QBs when asked if he would draft Andy Dalton a few years back... (sorry, no link, it was a Yahoo article)
So in last 20 years or so, with 32 NFL teams and at least 3 cornerbacks on each team for a total of 96 cornerbacks per year for 20 years for a total of 1,920 "cornerback years," we've had one white guy who played a few years at the position. There have been zero white CB's in the past 10 years. Give or take a few years or a few CB's, that's a pretty poor track record for white CB's.
So you're saying there's a chance...

 
if blacks can have a physical genetic advantage (and you're really talking about US black, obviously Kenyan "black" do not have the same physical physique) then you also have to allow that maybe white people have a higher intellect or a higher ability in performing as a QB

ahhhh , nobody wants to say that though do they ?

each human body is different, regardless of skin color, and without the right mind to go with it, you will never even know that person existed. How many "almost" Michael Jordans were there? They had the physical skills, but not the mental, or they had the mental and not the physical?

don't look at color - there, that's all there is to it

Gerhart was a beast in college, he has learned from an NFL HOF'er in ADP ............ it don't matter his skin color

 
I like this video because we see him facing NFL competition. What I see is the following:

1) He makes a quick decision and then goes to that hole aggressively--doesn't hesitate

2) He gets his pads low for contact and breaks many tackles on contact

3) Has good balance

4) Breaks arm tackles

5) Can make people miss with his wiggle--but isn't great at this

6) Has sneaky speed; sometimes looks slow but then can burst and at top speed can outrun most defenders--basically, he has enough speed and burst to be effective but isn't great at this.

7) Show soft hands catching the ball

8) Very effective at the goal line--has a nose for EZ, gets heads down and displays above average power pushing through the pile

He is an every down back. He isn't great at anything, but appears average to above average at everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IFSGIGp0-E

 
I like this video because we see him facing NFL competition. What I see is the following:

1) He makes a quick decision and then goes to that hole aggressively--doesn't hesitate

2) He gets his pads low for contact and breaks many tackles on contact

3) Has good balance

4) Breaks arm tackles

5) Can make people miss with his wiggle--but isn't great at this

6) Has sneaky speed; sometimes looks slow but then can burst and at top speed can outrun most defenders--basically, he has enough speed and burst to be effective but isn't great at this.

7) Show soft hands catching the ball

8) Very effective at the goal line--has a nose for EZ, gets heads down and displays above average power pushing through the pile

He is an every down back. He isn't great at anything, but appears average to above average at everything.

The true test is market value. On the open market I tend to think that white RB stock sells for a deep discount...

But what do I know - I'm just a troll...

 
steveski said:
I think black and white people are both very talented. It's the Red skins who suck at football.
Do you really think that NFL GMs and front office people would not racial profile? Of course they would - they are numbers players as well.

Be righteous if you want - I'll be real!!!

 
if blacks can have a physical genetic advantage (and you're really talking about US black, obviously Kenyan "black" do not have the same physical physique) then you also have to allow that maybe white people have a higher intellect or a higher ability in performing as a QB

ahhhh , nobody wants to say that though do they ?

each human body is different, regardless of skin color, and without the right mind to go with it, you will never even know that person existed. How many "almost" Michael Jordans were there? They had the physical skills, but not the mental, or they had the mental and not the physical?

don't look at color - there, that's all there is to it

Gerhart was a beast in college, he has learned from an NFL HOF'er in ADP ............ it don't matter his skin color
We have an ultra sensitive politically correct society. The discussion here was far more science than racist. No need for "but what if you said this" tangents...

 
I like this video because we see him facing NFL competition. What I see is the following:

1) He makes a quick decision and then goes to that hole aggressively--doesn't hesitate

2) He gets his pads low for contact and breaks many tackles on contact

3) Has good balance

4) Breaks arm tackles

5) Can make people miss with his wiggle--but isn't great at this

6) Has sneaky speed; sometimes looks slow but then can burst and at top speed can outrun most defenders--basically, he has enough speed and burst to be effective but isn't great at this.

7) Show soft hands catching the ball

8) Very effective at the goal line--has a nose for EZ, gets heads down and displays above average power pushing through the pile

He is an every down back. He isn't great at anything, but appears average to above average at everything.

How do you respond to that post about his skin color?

 
I like this video because we see him facing NFL competition. What I see is the following:

1) He makes a quick decision and then goes to that hole aggressively--doesn't hesitate

2) He gets his pads low for contact and breaks many tackles on contact

3) Has good balance

4) Breaks arm tackles

5) Can make people miss with his wiggle--but isn't great at this

6) Has sneaky speed; sometimes looks slow but then can burst and at top speed can outrun most defenders--basically, he has enough speed and burst to be effective but isn't great at this.

7) Show soft hands catching the ball

8) Very effective at the goal line--has a nose for EZ, gets heads down and displays above average power pushing through the pile

He is an every down back. He isn't great at anything, but appears average to above average at everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IFSGIGp0-E
I was somewhat shocked on how quickly he shot through the hole on some of those runs. For a guy his size he definitely can move better than I anticipated. His good hands and big body around the goal-line alone make him an interesting option for FFers who want to grab RB #2 a little later.

 
Jacksonville coach Gus Bradley told Around The League in March that free-agent acquisition Toby Gerhart has bell-cow potential in the Jaguars' young offense.


Running backs coach Terry Richardson recently explained that it was Gerhart's ability to gain yards after contact that attracted the Jaguars.

"He's a horse," Richardson said, via The Florida Times-Union. "He's a big guy, and I talked to one of his former (position) coaches, and he was saying Toby had the strongest legs he's been around in terms of his leg drive and leg power. We're excited about that."

Gerhart ranked fourth in the NFL in yards after contact per rushing attempt (3.8) in Pro Football Focus' 2013 ratings. He has demonstrated a penchant for breaking arm tackles throughout his four-year NFL career.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000353236/article/toby-gerhart-is-a-horse-jaguars-rb-coach-says

 
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steveski said:
I think black and white people are both very talented. It's the Red skins who suck at football.
Do you really think that NFL GMs and front office people would not racial profile? Of course they would - they are numbers players as well.Be righteous if you want - I'll be real!!!
So you are saying that even if Toby Gerhart was the most effective RB in camp, the front office would keep him on the bench cause he is white?

Because if you are that is the most idiotic thing I have heard in a while.

 
steveski said:
I think black and white people are both very talented. It's the Red skins who suck at football.
Do you really think that NFL GMs and front office people would not racial profile? Of course they would - they are numbers players as well.

Be righteous if you want - I'll be real!!!
It's pretty hard to get outside of your own head sometimes and see the world how people with different points of view and different experience do. It is often the hardest thing for people to do is to truly internalize that how you see the world isn't how everyone sees the world.

It must be hard for you to conceptualize that not everyone immediate judges someone's physical prowess based on the color of their skin first. I'm sure there are many that still do, but many don't prejudge people based on race or sexual orientation anymore.

Back to the actual topic, I like Gerhart as the sort of guy who can do it all at RB but my concerns are that the passing game won't keep defenses honest enough to allow him the room to operate and he might not be "special" enough athletically to overcome that.

 
steveski said:
I think black and white people are both very talented. It's the Red skins who suck at football.
Do you really think that NFL GMs and front office people would not racial profile? Of course they would - they are numbers players as well.

Be righteous if you want - I'll be real!!!
It's pretty hard to get outside of your own head sometimes and see the world how people with different points of view and different experience do. It is often the hardest thing for people to do is to truly internalize that how you see the world isn't how everyone sees the world.

It must be hard for you to conceptualize that not everyone immediate judges someone's physical prowess based on the color of their skin first. I'm sure there are many that still do, but many don't prejudge people based on race or sexual orientation anymore.

Back to the actual topic, I like Gerhart as the sort of guy who can do it all at RB but my concerns are that the passing game won't keep defenses honest enough to allow him the room to operate and he might not be "special" enough athletically to overcome that.
This is the best argument against Gerhart I have heard yet. It's a valid point. And I think it definitely suppresses his potential value. The question is can he compensate for lack of great holes (due to defenses keying on the run) with volume? Lesser backs have put up pretty good RB2 numbers in situations that were no worse. I also think in PPR he could be even better because even if he doesn't get a lot of yards on those dump off passes, they are going to pass to him a lot and each catch is a point. So, I see him as about a RB20 in standard league and a RB15 in PPR.

 
The question is can he compensate for lack of great holes (due to defenses keying on the run) with volume? Lesser backs have put up pretty good RB2 numbers in situations that were no worse.
My guess would be yes. Look at Stacy/Bell from 2013 and Richardson from 2012. Volume and receptions can go a long way.

I don't think the Jags are going to be as toothless as most suspect. Especially if either or both of their rookie WRs can make some noise immediately.

 
steveski said:
I think black and white people are both very talented. It's the Red skins who suck at football.
Do you really think that NFL GMs and front office people would not racial profile? Of course they would - they are numbers players as well.Be righteous if you want - I'll be real!!!
It's pretty hard to get outside of your own head sometimes and see the world how people with different points of view and different experience do. It is often the hardest thing for people to do is to truly internalize that how you see the world isn't how everyone sees the world.

It must be hard for you to conceptualize that not everyone immediate judges someone's physical prowess based on the color of their skin first. I'm sure there are many that still do, but many don't prejudge people based on race or sexual orientation anymore.

Back to the actual topic, I like Gerhart as the sort of guy who can do it all at RB but my concerns are that the passing game won't keep defenses honest enough to allow him the room to operate and he might not be "special" enough athletically to overcome that.
This is the best argument against Gerhart I have heard yet. It's a valid point. And I think it definitely suppresses his potential value. The question is can he compensate for lack of great holes (due to defenses keying on the run) with volume? Lesser backs have put up pretty good RB2 numbers in situations that were no worse. I also think in PPR he could be even better because even if he doesn't get a lot of yards on those dump off passes, they are going to pass to him a lot and each catch is a point. So, I see him as about a RB20 in standard league and a RB15 in PPR.
Yeah last year Jacksonville was a dumpster fire for fantasy. The team did show some improvement though once they benched gabbert so that gives some hope. They arent playing the NFC west either so those 4 games have a better outlook.

 
Jacksonville coach Gus Bradley told Around The League in March that free-agent acquisition Toby Gerhart has bell-cow potential in the Jaguars' young offense.


Running backs coach Terry Richardson recently explained that it was Gerhart's ability to gain yards after contact that attracted the Jaguars.

"He's a horse," Richardson said, via The Florida Times-Union. "He's a big guy, and I talked to one of his former (position) coaches, and he was saying Toby had the strongest legs he's been around in terms of his leg drive and leg power. We're excited about that."

Gerhart ranked fourth in the NFL in yards after contact per rushing attempt (3.8) in Pro Football Focus' 2013 ratings. He has demonstrated a penchant for breaking arm tackles throughout his four-year NFL career.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000353236/article/toby-gerhart-is-a-horse-jaguars-rb-coach-says
Been hearing a lot of news similar to this that points to a potential goldmine of production from Toby Gerhart. He's going to the same GM responsible for acquiring Michael Turner to the Falcons. For a few years there, the Falcons rode Turner till his wheels fell off. I could see the same thing in Jacksonville for Gerhart who is a much better pass catcher than Turner ever was. Bottom line, he's a 3 down back with no real competition for touches and his ADP is ridiculously low for a potential RB2 in PPR leagues.

 
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The question is can he compensate for lack of great holes (due to defenses keying on the run) with volume? Lesser backs have put up pretty good RB2 numbers in situations that were no worse.
My guess would be yes. Look at Stacy/Bell from 2013 and Richardson from 2012. Volume and receptions can go a long way.

I don't think the Jags are going to be as toothless as most suspect. Especially if either or both of their rookie WRs can make some noise immediately.
Chad Henne is an adequate NFL QB - it's not like he's incapable of beating teams through the air. He's done it, he just hasn't done it consistently and as you said he has some failry decent weapons to work with. The whole "stacking the box" meme is over-used and over-rated for the most part. If teams did totally sell out to stop the run, Henne, Shorts, Lee and Robinson could make them pay.

I also think Jacksonville could have a pretty decent defense this year, further allowing them to play ball control and run the ball. The Colts are a good, but not great team (especially on defense), and the Titans (with Jake Locker) and Houston (with Ryan Fitzpatrick) are unlikely to be formidable opponents in 2014. In other words they aren't likely to be overmatched in their six division game.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
The question is can he compensate for lack of great holes (due to defenses keying on the run) with volume? Lesser backs have put up pretty good RB2 numbers in situations that were no worse.
My guess would be yes. Look at Stacy/Bell from 2013 and Richardson from 2012. Volume and receptions can go a long way.

I don't think the Jags are going to be as toothless as most suspect. Especially if either or both of their rookie WRs can make some noise immediately.
Chad Henne is an adequate NFL QB - it's not like he's incapable of beating teams through the air. He's done it, he just hasn't done it consistently and as you said he has some failry decent weapons to work with. The whole "stacking the box" meme is over-used and over-rated for the most part. If teams did totally sell out to stop the run, Henne, Shorts, Lee and Robinson could make them pay.

I also think Jacksonville could have a pretty decent defense this year, further allowing them to play ball control and run the ball. The Colts are a good, but not great team (especially on defense), and the Titans (with Jake Locker) and Houston (with Ryan Fitzpatrick) are unlikely to be formidable opponents in 2014. In other words they aren't likely to be overmatched in their six division game.
Ouch. Fitzpatrick is no world beater, but he's looked good at times despite a questionable surrounding cast. And keep in mind that Houston is only 1 year removed from the playoffs. They squeezed a lot of out Schaub, maybe O'Brien can work some magic with Fitzpatrick. With that defense and an improved o-line, they don't need a QB to carry the team. I think you might be surprised this year.

 
Not sure if you're kidding or not. Hillis had 959 rushing yards in his college career at 4.7 YPC. Gerhart had 3522 rushing yards at 5.2 YPC. Hillis ran a 4.64 40 with a 30.5" vertical, 9'9" broad jump, and 7.15 three cone. 4.50, 38", 9'10", and 6.94 three cone time for Toby. Hillis is a glorified fullback who was in the right place at the right time for one NFL season. Gerhart is a better athlete with far more ability as a runner.

 
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Not sure if you're kidding or not. Hillis had 959 rushing yards in his college career at 4.7 YPC. Gerhart had 3522 rushing yards at 5.2 YPC. Hillis ran a 4.64 40 with a 30.5" vertical, 9'9" broad jump, and 7.15 three cone. 4.50, 38", 9'10", and 6.94 three cone time for Toby. Hillis is a glorified fullback who was in the right place at the right time for one NFL season. Gerhart is a better athlete with far more ability as a runner.
But.. but.. but.. they are both white?

 

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