Tom Brady If Never Drafted by the Pats (1 Viewer)

[pats3in4]

Despite being drafted 199th in 2000, Brady was on the outside looking in as far as making the roster.  The Pats had Bledsoe with Michael Bishop* and John Friesz as his backups.  Aside from height, Brady wasn't considered to have the physical characteristics necessary to be a top tier NFL QB.  But he had smarts, excellent field vision** and work ethic.  And by the time the final roster was set, Belichick made the unorthodox move of keeping four QBs.  He clearly saw something with him to give him a chance, even if it meant at the bottom of the QB depth chart for a season.

By the time training camp rolled around for the 2001 season, a very different Brady showed up than the rookie the year prior.  He had filled out a bit.  His footwork and throwing mechanics had improved drastically.  His arm strength was superior, especially on the deep out pattern.  This edition of Brady wouldn't have lasted until the 199th pick of the draft, let alone shared time with Drew Henson at Michigan.  During the preseason, many observers felt that Brady had outperformed Bledsoe as he showed a propensity to find the open receiver rather than follow Bledsoe's SOP of locking onto a receiver and hoping arm strength would win against whatever the coverage was.  Belichick clearly liked what he saw and moved Brady up the depth chart to #2.  I suspect Bledsoe's cannon of an arm and 8 years of experience, perhaps mixed in with some "Belichick isn't quite the 'IDGAF-what-anyone-thinks Belichick' yet" lead to the decision of keeping Bledsoe the starter.  However, as others pointed out, it would have been no surprise to anyone paying attention had Belichick made the move to Brady sometime during the season even if Mo Lewis didn't force the issue.  I think Belichick's favoritism to Brady and general antipathy towards Bledsoe was hammered home 3 more times that season (and immediately following): (1) Starting Brady against the Saints when Bledsoe was deemed healthy...with Brady rewarding the decision by throwing 4 TDs, (2) Starting Brady in the Super Bowl despite Belichick having the perfect excuse to start Bledsoe since Brady had an ankle sprain from the AFCCG a week earlier and (3) keeping Brady and trading Bledsoe to the division rival Bills in the offseason.  And all of this was done before Tom Brady was Tom Freaking Brady, circa 2003 and beyond.

I think the Brady who showed up a different man for that 2001 preseason happens without Belichick.  The guy is just so driven to succeed.  Even if he gets cut during the 2000 preseason, I think he earns his way onto somebody's roster and eventually their starting gig.  Do they win 4 Super Bowls?  Who knows as even the Brady/Belichick Pats are a handful of plays from winning just one...or maybe 8, depending on your view of the Giants Super Bowls and the 2006/2015 AFCCGs (and the NFC finalists those years).  Titles or not, does he light up the league elsewhere?  If his receiver corps the first portion of his career is any indication (pre-Moss/Welker, pre-Gronk/Edelman), I don't see why not.

* There were times in 1999 and 2000 when fans frustrated with Bledsoe wanted to see Bishop take the reigns.  He was thought to be the heir apparent.

** One of the books on the Pats (Michael Holley's?) recounts a pre-season or practice episode (I forget) where Brady ran a play and threw the ball away, causing Belichick to become irate.  The coach called out Brady for poor decision making, but Brady explained what he saw on the field...where his receivers were, what the defenders did - all in great detail...that caused him to get rid of the ball.  Belichick didn't want to hear it, but he went back and reviewed the tape later to find that Brady was spot on.  Belichick learned quickly that he had a young QB with the vision and processing ability typically found only in seasoned high-caliber QBs.

 

[cstu]

I think people may be forgetting that Brady got hurt early in the AFC Championship game and Bledsoe came in and led a small comeback against Pittsburgh and won the game. There was actually a small amount of controversy as to whether Bledsoe should start the Super Bowl given his performance in the AFCCG and with Brady being merely a game manager that first season. Belichick quickly put that to rest by coming out and saying Brady would start if healthy.

It was the defense, running game and Vinateri that was responsible for (at least) that first Super Bowl.

They would not have even made the playoffs with Bledsoe - they were 0-2 when he was injured.  Brady wasn't much more than a game manager in 2001, but he was a very good one. 

I say this as someone who was a big fan of Bledsoe at the time - he had a great arm but made way too many mistakes.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

They would not have even made the playoffs with Bledsoe - they were 0-2 when he was injured.  Brady wasn't much more than a game manager in 2001, but he was a very good one. 

I say this as someone who was a big fan of Bledsoe at the time - he had a great arm but made way too many mistakes.

Yes I do remember they started 0-2 because I remember joking with a buddy at a NJ Sports bar why the two dudes in the corner in Pats jerseys even bother (they were bad for a while). That was the week Mo Lewis gave Brady his opening. Whether they would have made the playoffs or not, who knows?

 

[cstu]

** One of the books on the Pats (Michael Holley's?) recounts a pre-season or practice episode (I forget) where Brady ran a play and threw the ball away, causing Belichick to become irate.  The coach called out Brady for poor decision making, but Brady explained what he saw on the field...where his receivers were, what the defenders did - all in great detail...that caused him to get rid of the ball.  Belichick didn't want to hear it, but he went back and reviewed the tape later to find that Brady was spot on.  Belichick learned quickly that he had a young QB with the vision and processing ability typically found only in seasoned high-caliber QBs.

Great story.  Guarantee Bledsoe doesn't have a similar one.

 

[bostonfred]

Without belichick, brady might never have gotten an opportunity.  Not many qbs picked that late ever get a chance.  But he obviously showed enough early from the patriots keeping 4 qbs on their roster to them choosing him over bledsoe even after bledsoe got healthy and even when brady was slowed by an ankle injury in their first superbowl.  It seems very likely his intelligence and desire would have gotten him on the field and once there he would have been a hall of famer.  

Sure, he might not have been in the same "system", but what system is that?  The charlie weis offense?  The wait belichick is the offensivee coordinator now offense?  The josh mcdaniel vertical passing to moss stallworth and welker offense that set multiple nfl records their first year collectively working together?  The josh mcdaniel 2.0 offense that bears little resemblance to the randy go days?  

Which personnel did he benefit so much from?  Troy brown, david patten, deion branch, david givens, reche caldwell, randy moss, wes welker, donte stallworth, rob gronkowski, aaron hernandez, julian edelman, and now martellus bennett and hogan all look to have benefitted tremendously from playing with brady.  That's tight ends, slot receivers, outside recrivers, fast guys, slow guys, you name it, they've all succeded with brady, in some very different looking offenses.  He would have been a hall of famer anywhere.

As for belichick - people in new england were confused when the patriots gave up a first round pick to get the guy the browns fired and he took a borderline playoff team that had been coached by pete carroll and turned them into a 5-13 disaster.  As a defensive coach, he obviously had a role in the pats taking a tweener defensive lineman named richard seymour over can't-miss receiver david terrell.  He wasn't on the hot seat, but anyone who says he was considered the best coach in the league back then is crazy.  He was considered a great defensive coordinator, retread head coach who was not well liked by the media but somehow had the owner's ear.

The emergence of brady was as big for belichick as the other way around.  If brady doesn't emerge, the hodge podge of free agents that turned the franchise around in 2001 doesn't get to the superbowl, they don't get guys like corey dillon or randy moss to go for a ring, he might not survive benching bledsoe when a hostile media doesn't like his refusal to explain himself, so they might keep him and not trade bledsoe to the bills for a first, which keeps them from getting wilfork, and on and on.  It's a lot easier for belichick to take the podium and say we're on to cincinatti after a blowout when the owner, team and fans believe in him, and without brady he might never have gotten to that point. 

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Guy split time with Drew freaking Henson in college.  He doesn't luck into a starting role under Bill B and he's working at some surf shop in Redondo Beach

 

[Stealthycat]

he would have been Zoolander because he's maybe the best looking man on the planet next to George Michael 

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Some guys were gonna be great NFL players no matter where they played - Barry Sanders, Jerry Rice, Peyton Manning, Lawrence Taylor.

Some guys ended up in the right situations to become all-time greats - Emmitt Smith and, yes, Tom Brady.  And it's not an insult to say that. 

Also, regarding Gronk, his peak is the highest of any TE ever, for sure, but he's not the GOAT yet.  He needs longevity and health to get there.  You  can't be the GOAT if you are getting hurt almost every year. 

Ah first Brady-Manning thread of the season....

I respectfully disagree, of course its an insulting and belittling thing to say Brady is only great because he is in the "right situation"; nonsense. Some guys had everything handed to them from the day they were born (I.E. Manning) other guys have to work a lot harder. Hard work doesn't diminish greatness, imho it enhances it.

I guess this is the point in the conversation where we need to agree on the definition of "great". If its purely about throwing a beautiful pass, Manning is as great as has ever lived; however if being a "great" qb is about a "lot" more than simply throwing a beautiful ball then Brady is equally as "great" as they come. 

This silliness that Manning would have succeeded anywhere and Brady wouldn't have is just such crap. Put Manning on a crappy outdoor team that isn't built from day one to revolve around him for his entire career and he doesn't get nearly the numbers he did. Perhaps he lands on a team that believes you win more with strong defense than strong offense and he doesn't get the chance to throw 28 interceptions his first year etc etc.

Could Brady have gone to a team with poor management and coaching and never achieved true greatness? Sure, but if we are really comparing apples to apples then manning certainly could have suffered a similar fate as well. 

 

[Bossman]

If not drafted by the Patriots, Brady would be a very persuasive and moderately successful insurance salesman.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

I think people may be forgetting that Brady got hurt early in the AFC Championship game and Bledsoe came in and led a small comeback against Pittsburgh and won the game. There was actually a small amount of controversy as to whether Bledsoe should start the Super Bowl given his performance in the AFCCG and with Brady being merely a game manager that first season. Belichick quickly put that to rest by coming out and saying Brady would start if healthy.

It was the defense, running game and Vinateri that was responsible for (at least) that first Super Bowl.

I believe bledsoe came in near the end of the 1st half with the lead and the ball already on pits side of the field and yes there were some in the local media who backed bledsoe (broken clock borges for one); but little doubt brady was playing if healthy (imo). I was happy Bledsoe got to be a part of it all, but brady outplayed him from the get go in tc that year. 

Yes the def and st were critical to their 1st sb, that is undeniably true, but to pretend that bradys play and leadership wasn't also a critical factor is a mistake many non ne fans make. Check out their record in the 16 games leading up to brady taking over. If this "game management" were so easy why wasn't the 100 million dollar man able to do it? I worshiped Bledsoe for the longest time but for all the talent the guy didn't have the drive and the determination that the great ones like a marino, montana or a brady have. I told 2 friends on the drive to tc that year that I was ready to see someone other than bledsoe under center. I didn't know it would be brady, but once he got in there I knew he was never coming out.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Not even remotely true.

I respect your right to be wrong.

Gonzo and Sharpe for sure better.  Winslow too given the game back then.

Gronk has delivery the goods for another 5-7 years before he is in their league.

 

[TwinTurbo]

Guy split time with Drew freaking Henson in college.  He doesn't luck into a starting role under Bill B and he's working at some surf shop in Redondo Beach

Or maybe BB is working at the NFL shop if he doesn't steal Brady in the sixth round. They both made each other better.

 

[Jercules]

Or maybe BB is working at the NFL shop if he doesn't steal Brady in the sixth round. They both made each other better.

Which is, of course, the only real answer here. To suggest either one would be as successful without the other is clearly absurd.

 

[Anarchy99]

Or maybe BB is working at the NFL shop if he doesn't steal Brady in the sixth round. They both made each other better.

BB coached as a DC and assistant HC in 3 SBs before he ever met Tom Brady. He'd still have a job coaching somewhere. 

 

[MikeApf]

First off: BB didn't "make" Brady.  Brady has legit talent and would have been a good QB anywhere.

But second, with that said, sadly there is a chance that had he been drafted in another scenario, he never gets a chance to start and languishes on the bench.  Typically QBs that are drafted in the 6th or 7th round are "seen" as backup QBs and they are not given the chance, unless someone gets injured. Bledsoe got injured, leaving the door open for TB, who took it and ran with it.  But make no mistake, BB was rolling with Bledsoe that year, not Brady.

There is a chance that Brady would have been a career backup.  But that does NOT mean that BB "made him" in NE or that Brady woudn't have been good.  But Eric Dickerson said years ago that often the best players never see the field because front offices feel they have to play and stick with top draft picks...

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I believe bledsoe came in near the end of the 1st half with the lead and the ball already on pits side of the field and yes there were some in the local media who backed bledsoe (broken clock borges for one); but little doubt brady was playing if healthy (imo). I was happy Bledsoe got to be a part of it all, but brady outplayed him from the get go in tc that year. 

Yes the def and st were critical to their 1st sb, that is undeniably true, but to pretend that bradys play and leadership wasn't also a critical factor is a mistake many non ne fans make. Check out their record in the 16 games leading up to brady taking over. If this "game management" were so easy why wasn't the 100 million dollar man able to do it? I worshiped Bledsoe for the longest time but for all the talent the guy didn't have the drive and the determination that the great ones like a marino, montana or a brady have. I told 2 friends on the drive to tc that year that I was ready to see someone other than bledsoe under center. I didn't know it would be brady, but once he got in there I knew he was never coming out.

NE fans get their panties in a bunch if you dare "disparage" any of their guys in anyway. Brady threw for 2,843 yards with 18 TDs and 12 INTs in 15 games in 2001. It's not an insult to call him a "game manager", as he was a first time starter. And no one pretended "that bradys play and leadership wasn't also a critical factor" and no one said being a game manger was "so easy" - but the bottom line is the Patriots had a top ranked defense and Antowain Smith was the focal point of the offense. There's nothing wrong with saying that - it was their identity for the first few Super Bowls, only Corey Dillon replaced Antowain Smith for the third one. And yes, by the third Super Bowl, Brady was a HUGE part of it as well.

Brady went on to be one of the all time great QBs, but frankly saying that the team would not have won if Bledsoe played all season in 2001 is baseless speculation and re-writing the legend a bit. We just don't know - but with all that said Brady DID lead the team to one of the greatest upsets in Super Bowl history and a magical storybook season (for many reasons) so it doesn't really matter anyway. 

And I was wrong, NE was winning 7-3 when Bledsoe came into the game in the second quarter but he threw the TD pass that put them up 14-3: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200201270pit.htm My memory isn't quite what it used to be and I was watching that game in a bar to boot.

 

[Anarchy99]

As I mentioned earlier, to no one's surprise, other SB winning coaches did not fare as well without their primary HOF QBs.

Bill Belichick
.734 winning % with Tom Brady, .500 without

Vince Lombardi
,760 winning % with Bart Starr, .625 without

Chuck Noll
.677 winning % with Terry Bradshaw, .470 without

Bill Walsh
.682 winning % with Joe Montana, .417 without

Tom Landry
.746 winning% with Roger Staubach, .553 without

Mike Shanahan
.729 winning % with John elway, .510 without

Mike Holmgren
.682 winning % with Brett Favre, .531 without

George Seifert
.729 winning % with Steve Young, .571 without

Tony Dungy
.759 winning % with Peyton Manning, .563 without

Mike Tomlin
.667 winning % with Ben Roethlisberger, .533 without

 

[Arodin]

Since we are dealing in hypotheticals, let's not discount the possibility that, if Brady is "drafted by an inferior organization" and "languishes on the bench" BB could swoop in and trade for him, or sign him when he hits free agency...

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Since we are dealing in hypotheticals, let's not discount the possibility that, if Brady is "drafted by an inferior organization" and "languishes on the bench" BB could swoop in and trade for him, or sign him when he hits free agency...

What would he be basing that on?

 

[Niles Standish]

His record is 14-6 as the Patriots HC in games without Brady, so pretty good?

While he may have "failed" overall in Cleveland, I think he was the last HC that took them to the playoffs still - so that may not be on him.

Obviously they have both benefitted from each other.

Actually his record is 19-19 without Brady as the Patriots HC.  His record is only 14-6 if you ignore his first 2 seasons.

 

[jmo87usc]

Better question: tell me what Belichick's career is like without Brady.

Probably would have grabbed Brees the following year and followed the same exact path of success.

 

[Niles Standish]

My opinion on the whole thing.  Brady is one of the greatest of all time.  He's in the discussion for best of all time.

I think he would have made it anywhere, but his path to greatness might have been a bit slower without Belichick.  We're talking a guy who led the league in TDs his 2nd season with a mediocre at best set of skill players and was 6th in yards.  He didn't finish outside of the top 10 in passing yards again until 2008.  Brady was more than a game manager pretty early in his career.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Actually his record is 19-19 without Brady as the Patriots HC.  His record is only 14-6 if you ignore his first 2 seasons.

Yeah, good catch. Wasn't thinking that one through properly.

 

[ghostguy123]

They are both better with each other than they would be without.  Much like every great QB and coach combo, ya know, ever. 

 

[Pots]

I think Brady wouldn't have been as great without Belichick but still a HoF QB.  Brady would have been equal to Peyton instead of being clearly on a higher level than him.

Best laugh I've had today! Thank you.

 

[FUBAR]

They are both better with each other than they would be without.  Much like every great QB and coach combo, ya know, ever. 

Like marriage! 

 

[Pigskin Fanatic]

What other teams/QB's had mediocre receivers like the Pats over the course of Brady's career and still won consistently as well as they did? This seems relevant, there's not enough credit to the coaching. Brady still has to make the plays and decision, so don't want to take away too much from him, either. Eagles/McNabb with Andy Reed is the only team I can think of off the top of my head. He would have needed a lot more help in the receiver department for him to be as good without BB imo. This coming from a lifetime BB hater. BB is awesome. This season without Brady pretty much proved this in my mind.

 

[Arodin]

What other teams/QB's had mediocre receivers like the Pats over the course of Brady's career and still won consistently as well as they did? 

If the folks in the HoF threads are to be believed, Bradshaw's Steelers fit...  

 

[Ghost Rider]

First off: BB didn't "make" Brady.  Brady has legit talent and would have been a good QB anywhere.

But second, with that said, sadly there is a chance that had he been drafted in another scenario, he never gets a chance to start and languishes on the bench.  Typically QBs that are drafted in the 6th or 7th round are "seen" as backup QBs and they are not given the chance, unless someone gets injured. Bledsoe got injured, leaving the door open for TB, who took it and ran with it.  But make no mistake, BB was rolling with Bledsoe that year, not Brady.

There is a chance that Brady would have been a career backup.  But that does NOT mean that BB "made him" in NE or that Brady woudn't have been good.  But Eric Dickerson said years ago that often the best players never see the field because front offices feel they have to play and stick with top draft picks...

Well said.  

Like I said earlier, some guys need the right situation for their greatness to be seen, like a 6th round pick. It's not insulting or belittling to say that Brady landed in a fortunate situation; it's reality.  Just like Kurt Warner never sees the light of day without Trent Green's injury, which isn't insulting to him either.  Opportunity is the name of the game often times in the NFL, especially when you aren't a high paid early round draft pick.  It's a testament to Brady's greatness that he made the best of his situation to put himself in the GOAT conversation when it comes to NFL quarterbacks. 

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

NE fans get their panties in a bunch if you dare "disparage" any of their guys in anyway. Brady threw for 2,843 yards with 18 TDs and 12 INTs in 15 games in 2001. It's not an insult to call him a "game manager", as he was a first time starter. And no one pretended "that bradys play and leadership wasn't also a critical factor" and no one said being a game manger was "so easy" - but the bottom line is the Patriots had a top ranked defense and Antowain Smith was the focal point of the offense. There's nothing wrong with saying that - it was their identity for the first few Super Bowls, only Corey Dillon replaced Antowain Smith for the third one. And yes, by the third Super Bowl, Brady was a HUGE part of it as well.

Brady went on to be one of the all time great QBs, but frankly saying that the team would not have won if Bledsoe played all season in 2001 is baseless speculation and re-writing the legend a bit. We just don't know - but with all that said Brady DID lead the team to one of the greatest upsets in Super Bowl history and a magical storybook season (for many reasons) so it doesn't really matter anyway. 

And I was wrong, NE was winning 7-3 when Bledsoe came into the game in the second quarter but he threw the TD pass that put them up 14-3: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200201270pit.htm My memory isn't quite what it used to be and I was watching that game in a bar to boot.

O,

Thought I simply pointed out (about as nicely as I could) where i felt you were wrong and then gave a counter opinion. Not sure why that seems to have set you off other than you hate to be corrected and are apparently still carrying some kind of a grudge. Too bad, let it go, every exchange doesn't need to be a sword fight (not that i don't love sword fights ).

Okey, dokey, we can do it your way. Posters who disparage NE players often get their panties in a twist if a NE fan has the audacity to point out factual errors and offer opinion that is at odds with said disparagement. Said posters also often love to quote\respond to one NE fan while simultaneously attempting to lump all NE fans together in some sort of lame attempt at disparaging NE fans in general in discrediting the one in particular. A twofer so to speak. If Im speaking for other NE fans I will let you know and if you want to refer to NE fans in general it might be best not to quote my post when you do it.

You shared your opinion that Brady was “merely a game manager” and imho that implies brady wasn’t a critical factor and I disagreed. However, I did agree with much of what you said in that the def and st were obviously critical.

I don’t think I said they never would have won with Bledsoe starting all year but you can put me down as believing it. Obviously anything is possible (look at the presidential race :X ) and no one can prove it one way or the other. However Occam’s Razor applies afaic and it is far from baseless (imho) to believe they don’t even get to the playoffs never mind win the sb without brady. They were 5-12 in the previous 17 games with bledsoe starting and going nowhere fast. They were 14-3 with brady starting immediately thereafter. No I can’t prove that they couldn’t possibly have done that with bledsoe but it seems highly unlikely. It was rather obvious that the team responded to brady’s skills and leadership in a way they never did or would have with bledsoe. I rooted for and watched Bledsoe his entire ne career and he was never, ever the obsessed, driven leader brady was from day one. Seems fair to say one of the greatest minds in football recognized that and felt the same way.  

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

First off: BB didn't "make" Brady.  Brady has legit talent and would have been a good QB anywhere.

But second, with that said, sadly there is a chance that had he been drafted in another scenario, he never gets a chance to start and languishes on the bench.  Typically QBs that are drafted in the 6th or 7th round are "seen" as backup QBs and they are not given the chance, unless someone gets injured. Bledsoe got injured, leaving the door open for TB, who took it and ran with it.  But make no mistake, BB was rolling with Bledsoe that year, not Brady.

There is a chance that Brady would have been a career backup.  But that does NOT mean that BB "made him" in NE or that Brady woudn't have been good.  But Eric Dickerson said years ago that often the best players never see the field because front offices feel they have to play and stick with top draft picks...

Got to respectfully disagree:

How/why is he going to languish on the bench when every time he steps on the field it is obvious to anyone watching he is a leader? Sure he could have sat on the bench for a couple or even a few years, but you act as if he came into this great situation and got lucky. How many teams keep FOUR QBs? Why do u think they did that in his rookie year? Why did BB go with him when he already had a super star qb? He was 4th string for gods sake on a team with a franchise qb and in 1 yr quickly worked his way to #2. How can some of you believe he wouldn't have gone somewhere else and been successful? 

Rolling with Bledsoe that year? Meh, I beg to differ a little bit on that; BB is on record acknowledging that Brady had out played bledsoe that year in tc. If ne went 5-11 again that year bb might not of even have had a job the following year. BB does what he thinks will give him the best chance to win and if the team kept losing under bledsoe bb may well have put brady in. Even if he didn't give brady a shot during that year he sure as hell would have the following tc.

Lets pretend brady never gets to start for ne and goes somewhere else, what are the chances he never gets a chance anywhere? Pretty much zero if u ask me. Brady worked his ### off to get to the top and that wasn't going to change if he was somewhere else. If he didn't become a starter in ne he would have done it somewhere else. Not saying he would have enjoyed the same amount of success, particularly as quickly, but to think he is going to languish on the bench and be a career backup never getting a chance is simply absurd. I think many of you have no idea just how obsessed, driven and talented the man is.

 

[Anarchy99]

Not being considered here is the possibility that a team with an established QB like GB or IND  could have drafted TB and he could have had little chance to start for his initial team. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

Very true.  For the sake of argument, let's say he never got to start with NE, was released, and was then picked up by a team with a QB who was never going to be overtaken; it's likely he never makes it in the NFL as a starter, which it why, I repeat, it's all about opportunity. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

O,

Thought I simply pointed out (about as nicely as I could) where i felt you were wrong and then gave a counter opinion. Not sure why that seems to have set you off other than you hate to be corrected and are apparently still carrying some kind of a grudge. Too bad, let it go, every exchange doesn't need to be a sword fight (not that i don't love sword fights ).

Okey, dokey, we can do it your way. Posters who disparage NE players often get their panties in a twist if a NE fan has the audacity to point out factual errors and offer opinion that is at odds with said disparagement. Said posters also often love to quote\respond to one NE fan while simultaneously attempting to lump all NE fans together in some sort of lame attempt at disparaging NE fans in general in discrediting the one in particular. A twofer so to speak. If Im speaking for other NE fans I will let you know and if you want to refer to NE fans in general it might be best not to quote my post when you do it.

You shared your opinion that Brady was “merely a game manager” and imho that implies brady wasn’t a critical factor and I disagreed. However, I did agree with much of what you said in that the def and st were obviously critical.

I don’t think I said they never would have won with Bledsoe starting all year but you can put me down as believing it. Obviously anything is possible (look at the presidential race :X ) and no one can prove it one way or the other. However Occam’s Razor applies afaic and it is far from baseless (imho) to believe they don’t even get to the playoffs never mind win the sb without brady. They were 5-12 in the previous 17 games with bledsoe starting and going nowhere fast. They were 14-3 with brady starting immediately thereafter. No I can’t prove that they couldn’t possibly have done that with bledsoe but it seems highly unlikely. It was rather obvious that the team responded to brady’s skills and leadership in a way they never did or would have with bledsoe. I rooted for and watched Bledsoe his entire ne career and he was never, ever the obsessed, driven leader brady was from day one. Seems fair to say one of the greatest minds in football recognized that and felt the same way.  

I don't feel I was corrected. The proof is in the numbers. He was a game manager. There's nothing wrong with that. He was a first time starter and thats all the team needed.

But...but...Brady....

 

[MikeApf]

Got to respectfully disagree:

How/why is he going to languish on the bench when every time he steps on the field it is obvious to anyone watching he is a leader? Sure he could have sat on the bench for a couple or even a few years, but you act as if he came into this great situation and got lucky. How many teams keep FOUR QBs? Why do u think they did that in his rookie year? Why did BB go with him when he already had a super star qb? He was 4th string for gods sake on a team with a franchise qb and in 1 yr quickly worked his way to #2. How can some of you believe he wouldn't have gone somewhere else and been successful? 

Rolling with Bledsoe that year? Meh, I beg to differ a little bit on that; BB is on record acknowledging that Brady had out played bledsoe that year in tc. If ne went 5-11 again that year bb might not of even have had a job the following year. BB does what he thinks will give him the best chance to win and if the team kept losing under bledsoe bb may well have put brady in. Even if he didn't give brady a shot during that year he sure as hell would have the following tc.

Lets pretend brady never gets to start for ne and goes somewhere else, what are the chances he never gets a chance anywhere? Pretty much zero if u ask me. Brady worked his ### off to get to the top and that wasn't going to change if he was somewhere else. If he didn't become a starter in ne he would have done it somewhere else. Not saying he would have enjoyed the same amount of success, particularly as quickly, but to think he is going to languish on the bench and be a career backup never getting a chance is simply absurd. I think many of you have no idea just how obsessed, driven and talented the man is.

Well, it's speculation either way.  However, if you look at history in the NFL, it's not ludicrous at all to expect that many 6th or 7th round QBs never get the chance to shine because of their perceived value as related to draft position.  You might say, "well, if they worked as hard as TB, then they'd start.  Since they are not starting, they either don't work as hard as TB or don't have the ability."  But that would be a fallacious argument.  You would be a-pri-o-ri assuming that any QB with talent and drive drafted in the 6th and 7th round will get rise to starter status and if therefore they do not start, they do not have talent and drive.  But that reasoning is not logical as it does not allow for other factors such as opportunity and faulty perceptions of coaches and front office staff, which are well documented in the NFL.

I'm not saying you are absolutely wrong in that it *could* have transpired the way you say, with TB working his way on to other situations.  Sure there's a chance that it could have.  But we are all speculating regarding the likelihood one way or the other.  And I just don't think a lot of these teams give low round QBs a chance.  That's why 2 or 3 QBs go in the top 10 every year even though half of them flame out.  Instead of trying the lower tier guys, these teams just go for someone drafted high again it seems...

 

[Boston]

If you look at most of the modern great NFL QB's you will also find a good to great NFL Coach...it is part of the package...Starr/Lombardi, Montana/Walsh, Staubach/Landry, Tarkenton/Grant, Marino/Shula, Elway/Reeves-Shanahan, Aikman/Johnson, Favre/Holmgren, Bradshaw/Noll, Kelly/Levy, Manning/Dungy, Warner/Vermeil, Rodgers/McCarthy...it is rare that a QB can overcome bad coaching...look at Archie Manning...if he had gone to the Cowboys instead of Staubach does anyone doubt he would have had a totally different career...Steve Young got his butt kicked in Tampa but turned into a Hall-of-Famer with the stability of San Fran...so, yes I do believe Brady's career was maximized by playing for BB...yet that doesn't mean he is an overachiever or a lesser talent...it just means that like almost every other great QB over the past 50 years he was put in the best position to succeed and took full advantage of it...

As for Bledsoe...absolutely no way do the Pats win with him in 2001...he was playing at a subpar level and it is well-documented that BB was about to bench him prior to the Mo Lewis hit...he would never have had the ability to play how the Pats needed the QB to play that year...and yes, you can make a case that it was in the game-manager category but is that unusual for a first-year QB?  My beef with that label was when people tried to keep that label on him when it was very apparent that he was far more than that...

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

I don't feel I was corrected. The proof is in the numbers. He was a game manager. There's nothing wrong with that. He was a first time starter and thats all the team needed.

But...but...Brady....

I was referring to your "Bledsoe came in and led a small comeback against Pittsburgh and won the game" statement. You've since explained you were watching the game in a bar which is fine, but that doesn't make the statement any less incorrect. Its all good.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Not being considered here is the possibility that a team with an established QB like GB or IND  could have drafted TB and he could have had little chance to start for his initial team. 

I understand\agree your point that he might have gone to a team and not had a chance to start initially. There is no argument there, the disagreement lies with those making the leap from that to “it’s likely he never makes it in the nfl as a starter” which flys in the face of all fact and logic.

 

[Anarchy99]

I understand\agree your point that he might have gone to a team and not had a chance to start initially. There is no argument there, the disagreement lies with those making the leap from that to “it’s likely he never makes it in the nfl as a starter” which flys in the face of all fact and logic.

This whole exercise is a case of coming up with different scenarios, but if Brady went to a winning team with an established starter, he could have played out his contract and barely played. He might have been able to get a shot elsewhere, but if he went to a bad team with little talent, bad management, no OL, and bad coaches, he could have been very ho hum. He could have been a Brian Hoyer or Ryan Mallett type. Again, it didn't happen, so at this point it's all fiction.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Very true.  For the sake of argument, let's say he never got to start with NE, was released, and was then picked up by a team with a QB who was never going to be overtaken; it's likely he never makes it in the NFL as a starter, which it why, I repeat, it's all about opportunity. 

Ghost you are entitled to your own opinion however obviously illogical and incorrect it may be, but you don’t get your own facts.

For the moment let us agree for the sake of argument that brady didn’t get to start in NE and try to play out your hypothesis. That doesn’t change the fact that he went from 4th string to second string in year one.

So after quickly becoming the #2 qb and outplaying Bledsoe in tc of year two (another fact) the patriots inexplicably release him. This makes sense only if you are determined and that you are (for whatever reason) to ignore all the facts surrounding what actually transpired in Brady’s first 2 training camps.

So brady against all logic and reason is released and a team with an unquestioned starter picks him up (instead of the dozen or so qb desperate teams most all of which likely have ww priority). But whatever this is your fantasy, so what happens then? How long do you think this new super awesome qb team gets to sit brady on the bench? A year? Brady is now in the 3rd year of his rookie contract and is sitting on the bench. Is this team going to franchise him, does brady seem like the type who would sign another contract if he weren’t assured of a chance to compete and start?

Yes opportunity matters, we don’t disagree there, where you go wrong is not acknowledging that opportunity can be earned in practice and tc. Sure it might have taken him a little longer and as previously acknowledged he might not have had as much success. However, to make the gargantuan leap from that to say “it's likely he never makes it in the NFL as a starter“ is just over the top ridiculous. You can only make such a leap by ignoring (intentionally or not) all the facts to the contrary. I truly mean no disrespect but you so obviously have no idea of what actually went on during bradys first 24 months in the nfl. Don’t believe me? There are lots of good sources you can research. Checkout Gary Myers Brady v Manning book (page 112) for one.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Well, it's speculation either way.  However, if you look at history in the NFL, it's not ludicrous at all to expect that many 6th or 7th round QBs never get the chance to shine because of their perceived value as related to draft position.  You might say, "well, if they worked as hard as TB, then they'd start.  Since they are not starting, they either don't work as hard as TB or don't have the ability."  But that would be a fallacious argument.  You would be a-pri-o-ri assuming that any QB with talent and drive drafted in the 6th and 7th round will get rise to starter status and if therefore they do not start, they do not have talent and drive.  But that reasoning is not logical as it does not allow for other factors such as opportunity and faulty perceptions of coaches and front office staff, which are well documented in the NFL.

I'm not saying you are absolutely wrong in that it *could* have transpired the way you say, with TB working his way on to other situations.  Sure there's a chance that it could have.  But we are all speculating regarding the likelihood one way or the other.  And I just don't think a lot of these teams give low round QBs a chance.  That's why 2 or 3 QBs go in the top 10 every year even though half of them flame out.  Instead of trying the lower tier guys, these teams just go for someone drafted high again it seems...

I agree with some of that and anything could have happened but we are making best case for what we feel was likely to happen. I'm not saying if players worked as hard as brady theyd start, im sayin if they worked as hard AND were as talented they would get their chance to start and excel and nfl history is littered with examples. The NFL is a qb hungry league where every single year 40-50 or so qbs throw at least more than 100 regular season passes. To think that brady after showing what he did in his 1st couple of training camps wouldn't get a shot doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. To believe he wouldn't have likely succeeded once he got his shot after knowing what we now know doesn't seem to make a lot of sense either. Its mostly conjecture but I believe my side of the argument has a lot more logic and fact on its side than the "not likely to have become a starter" crowd does. We can agree to disagree, its all good.

 

[Anarchy99]

Since 1970, there were 257 QBs drafted at pick 199 or later. Brady leads the pack with 431 TD passes. Steve DeBerg is second with 196. There are only 8 that had 100 or more (and Matt Cassel is one of them).

Brady also leads with 58,434 passing yards with DeBerg second at 32,241. Only 13 made it to 10,000. Brady leads with 224 games as a starter, DeBerg is next with 140. Only 6 other QBs started 100 games and only 13 started 50.

The point being, the huge majority of later round QB selections disappear. Only 31 started 10 games, meaning 226 didn't. Only 66 made even one start in their careers, meaning 191 never even started a single game.

Sure, it's it's easy to say Brady would have been a star elsewhere, but the deck would have been really stacked against him.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I was referring to your "Bledsoe came in and led a small comeback against Pittsburgh and won the game" statement. You've since explained you were watching the game in a bar which is fine, but that doesn't make the statement any less incorrect. Its all good.

Correcting me on that didn't bother me at all. It was my mistake.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Since 1970, there were 257 QBs drafted at pick 199 or later. Brady leads the pack with 431 TD passes. Steve DeBerg is second with 196. There are only 8 that had 100 or more (and Matt Cassel is one of them).

Brady also leads with 58,434 passing yards with DeBerg second at 32,241. Only 13 made it to 10,000. Brady leads with 224 games as a starter, DeBerg is next with 140. Only 6 other QBs started 100 games and only 13 started 50.

The point being, the huge majority of later round QB selections disappear. Only 31 started 10 games, meaning 226 didn't. Only 66 made even one start in their careers, meaning 191 never even started a single game.

Sure, it's it's easy to say Brady would have been a star elsewhere, but the deck would have been really stacked against him.

Ugh, the reply I put the least amount of thought into has the first response.  Ok, I assume your reply is directed at the discussion I was having with Aft?

The discussion centered on “getting a shot” or a “chance” to start.  The point I was trying to make was that every year a lot of qbs get significant opportunities and surely brady would have gotten at least a shot, no?

Im going to skip the 199 number,  passing yards, 10 games, blah, blah etc as they seem so arbitrary and meaningless. Unless someone can explain how\why these numbers r in any way relevant to the subject (discussion) at hand.

 Even if u believe the numbers might mean something, can they possibly mean as much as what we know actually happened yr1, yr2?

So to directly respond to what you eventually got around to saying your point was “huge majority of late rd qbs disappear” I think it was: I reply, who is claiming otherwise?  Certainly not me.

Or to try and put it a little more nicely, Imho the numbers 1 of 45 (as in making the 45 man roster year1) seem a lot more relevant and meaningful than just lumping him in with every1 drafted after 199. We don't have to speculate about his first adn 2nd years we just need to acknowledge them. We already know for a fact that he went to a situation that was probably best described at the time as not ideal and yet he did enough to make the 45 man roster and then quickly become the #2. Some want to pretend (not saying you) that this never happened and that just doesn't seem to make any sense.

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

If Brady was never on the Pats, does he also land a lesser supermodel, like Adriana Bruni or Natalia Vodianova?

If somehow he went to the Browns, I know he ends up with Harvey Fierstein instead.

 

[Niles Standish]

Since 1970, there were 257 QBs drafted at pick 199 or later. Brady leads the pack with 431 TD passes. Steve DeBerg is second with 196. There are only 8 that had 100 or more (and Matt Cassel is one of them).

Brady also leads with 58,434 passing yards with DeBerg second at 32,241. Only 13 made it to 10,000. Brady leads with 224 games as a starter, DeBerg is next with 140. Only 6 other QBs started 100 games and only 13 started 50.

The point being, the huge majority of later round QB selections disappear. Only 31 started 10 games, meaning 226 didn't. Only 66 made even one start in their careers, meaning 191 never even started a single game.

Sure, it's it's easy to say Brady would have been a star elsewhere, but the deck would have been really stacked against him.

So something like 1/8 QBs picked 199 or later get 10 starts.  Don't you think if Brady had gotten 10 starts he would have distinguished himself enough to get another couple of starts?  Not to mention picking 199 or later hurts the odds for Brady (I'd assume) since he was the 199th pick.  It would make more sense to say something like 170 or later since 199 probably has more talent than whoever was picked 250.  That would make me guess it's something more on the lines of 1/7 (although that's just a random guess).  But I don't feel like running the numbers since that's a lot of work.

 

[Warrior]

Imagine if Peyton had ended up in New England. 12 straight Super Bowls...over/under?

 

[Anarchy99]

Again, we don't know what might have happened to Brady because it didn't happen. Let's change the data set to all QBs drafted since 1970 who were picked from picks 101 to picks 200. That way, the truly late, late picks are not included.

There were 191 players drafted. 92 of them never started a game. Only 51 started 10 games. The only QBs to win 50 games were Brady (173), Hasselbeck (85), Brunell (78), Steve Grogan (75), and Stan Humphries (50).

By comparison, of all QBs drafted since 1970, there have been only 60 QBs that have won 50 or more games (out of 697 QBs drafted). That equates to only 8% of all QBs drafted reaching 50 wins. There have been 247 QBs get at least 10 starts (35%).

Who knows what would have happened to Brady. If he were a back up and got isolated injury fill in starts over several years to get to 10 starts, and say he made those on a really bad team, we may not have ever gotten to see the NE version of Tom Brady. Imagine if he got drafted to back up Peyton. He might not ever have gotten on the field (at least for the Colts).

 

[Niles Standish]

Again, we don't know what might have happened to Brady because it didn't happen. Let's change the data set to all QBs drafted since 1970 who were picked from picks 101 to picks 200. That way, the truly late, late picks are not included.

There were 191 players drafted. 92 of them never started a game. Only 51 started 10 games. The only QBs to win 50 games were Brady (173), Hasselbeck (85), Brunell (78), Steve Grogan (75), and Stan Humphries (50).

By comparison, of all QBs drafted since 1970, there have been only 60 QBs that have won 50 or more games (out of 697 QBs drafted). That equates to only 8% of all QBs drafted reaching 50 wins. There have been 247 QBs get at least 10 starts (35%).

Who knows what would have happened to Brady. If he were a back up and got isolated injury fill in starts over several years to get to 10 starts, and say he made those on a really bad team, we may not have ever gotten to see the NE version of Tom Brady. Imagine if he got drafted to back up Peyton. He might not ever have gotten on the field (at least for the Colts).

Again I think your numbers don't really show the right set.  I think first of all (although it makes Brady look better) 100-200 picks isn't good either.  He was 199th pick 100 likely gets more chances than pick 200.  But the main thing is the 50 win plateau means something like 100 games.  I think most of us would agree give Brady 10 games maybe 16 and his talent shines through enough to get him more games.  That 50 win means 2 things 1 they got the opportunity and 2 they had the talent.  We already know Brady has the talent no matter who drafts him (or I think most of us agree that if he had the chance he would prove his worth and get more starts) so really the only question is whether he would have gotten the opportunity (which I think is the first 10-16 games not the first 100).  You don't have to check those numbers your choice, I certainly am too lazy to do it myself.  But if you checked say 150-250 for 10+ or 15+ starts (your choice) I think we'd have a pretty good picture of his real opportunity.

EDIT: Sorry completely missed that you had the 10 starts 35% in your post.  I'd guess something like 25% (since 100 is to close to the start IMO) is the chance of starting that much.  And I feel like give Brady 10+ starts anywhere and he proves his worth.  Thanks for the numbers by the way.

 

[Anarchy99]

I'm not really arguing one way or another, as we are now in fantasy never never land. At this point, it's a similar argument to who is the most beautiful woman in the world. There is no right or wrong answer.

Just for ha-ha's, let's say the Pats didn't draft Brady and the Chargers did at pick 203. SD was in the middle of the failed Ryan Leaf experience gone bad. Jim Harbaugh and Moses Moreno started a combined 7 games as Leaf proved to be a bust. Let's just say that the talent on that team was suspect and there are not a lot of household names. The Chargers went 1-15 that year.

Suppose Brady stepped in and instead of going 0-7 like Harbaugh and Moreno did, let's say Brady went 2-5. At that point, Brady would have been a rookie (unlike the following year when he replaced Bledsoe and went on to the SB). Instead of BB as head coach, he would have had Mike Riley, he of the career .292 winning percentage. But eking out 2 exxtra wins, But Brady getting those extra wins would probably have cost the Chargers the opportunity to draft LaDainian Tomlinson, so the Chargers could quite possible stayed that bad for even longer.

My point being, Brady could have ended up in a terrible situation, and just being motivated and a decent QB doesn't change the ineptitude of a head coach or the skill level of the players around him. I don't know what Brady would have done other than New England (nor does anyone else), but football fans should appreciate what he has done where he did end up playing.