trade ethics (1 Viewer)

[Scrubby Dubs]

I searched through some "ethics" threads as far back as 2004, but I did not find anything similar to my situation. It was interesting reading though, and some people think that you should do whatever it takes to win without breaking the rules. Others say that you should never piss in the trading pool and that it only takes one incident to establish a bad reputation that will keep other owners from talking trade with you again.

Anyway, some of you might not think that this is a big deal, but here is what happened:

I had been hammering out a trade with owner A over several weeks and numerous emails. We were real close to sealing the deal, and I sent him a final suggestion and told him to enter a trade proposal if it sounded good to him. That night owner B finally responded to an earlier email that I had sent, and he was interested in the same player that owner A was after. I told him about the trade proposal that I was expecting and asked if he could beat it. He entered a trade proposal that I could not refuse and so I accepted. Now owner A is letting me know how unhappy he is with all the time spent talking trade for nothing. Is he overreacting?

More specifically, do you think that trade negotiations can get to the point of no return where it is mutually understood that a trade will happen even though no official proposals have been entered?

 

[Penguin]

How is this any different then when a player is a free agent and talking to multiple teams. If Team A is interested in him but keeps going around in circles trying to nickle & dime when Team B steps up and makes a legitimate offer.

More specifically, do you think that trade negotiations can get to the point of no return where it is mutually understood that a trade will happen even though no official proposals have been entered?

It is never understood that a trade will be made until the trade HAS been made

 

[Bri]

It's pretty simple really.

If you don't communicate enough A will feel like you took the rug right out from under him.

You made a trade you wanted and that is nothing to apologize for IMO but you may need to apologize or no no just chat with A. Give him a call(yeah people still have phones) and let him know it was dragging and YOU should have told him you felt that way. Poor communicating by you so..sorry about the communication. He'll be touched by the phone call and future trades will be OK whereas without the phone call trading will be difficult.

Reiterate- no prob with trade, don't even hint there is. Quick apology for communication probs(not saying it was taking too long)

Also, FWIW before people point out you did nothing wrong and preach from a mountain they just became king of, I think it's good for the league too. Animosity isn't good for any league and lack of communication is a dopey reason to have some so "nip it in the bud" as they say and end it right away with a phone call.

Good Luck

 

[JoeSteeler]

You are in the right. The trade never happened and owner A needs to step up to the plate instead of screwing around.

 

[Penguin]

It's pretty simple really.If you don't communicate enough A will feel like you took the rug right out from under him. You made a trade you wanted and that is nothing to apologize for IMO but you may need to apologize or no no just chat with A. Give him a call(yeah people still have phones) and let him know it was dragging and YOU should have told him you felt that way. Poor communicating by you so..sorry about the communication. He'll be touched by the phone call and future trades will be OK whereas without the phone call trading will be difficult.Reiterate- no prob with trade, don't even hint there is. Quick apology for communication probs(not saying it was taking too long)Also, FWIW before people point out you did nothing wrong and preach from a mountain they just became king of, I think it's good for the league too. Animosity isn't good for any league and lack of communication is a dopey reason to have some so "nip it in the bud" as they say and end it right away with a phone call.Good Luck

This is good advice, the Team A owner should not feel betrayed if you smooth things out.

 

[slayer666]

A trade isn't an official trade until an offer is made and accepted in the league software.

 

[TC]

We should always do two things with each transaction -- (1)Act honestly within the rules and (2)seek to better your team. You seemed to have done both here.

 

[radballs]

I agree with most responses here that team A may have taken a "you snooze, you lose" proposition and that it's his fault that he missed out on the trade (granted, in your eyes).

On the other hand, I'd really like more information about what you shared with team B regarding your "proposed deal" with team A. If I was team A, I might be pissed at you but it would all depend on your delivery. If you just came out and said, "Look guys, I'm trying to move player X. Send me your offers." That's cool too. But, you should always give the first guy to respond the first right of refusal in my mind unless the terms aren't equal. I could be wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that you worked team A to the breaking point, and then team B jumped in with an offer that was much better. Well, at least if you're going to work both of them against each other, you should allow the first guy the chance to match...

Unless, you think he might have a rep of just feeling people out ..........

I mean, this seriously depends on a ton of factors that you haven't shared with anyone. Not sure if I'd ever want to deal with you either ............

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

More specifically, do you think that trade negotiations can get to the point of no return where it is mutually understood that a trade will happen even though no official proposals have been entered?

If you're distinguishing between "made" and "entered," then the answer is yes. Once you say "OK, you've got a deal," you're past the point of no return even if nothing's been entered into the league's software.But if you've never gotten to the point where a proposal has been made and accepted, then you're not past the point of no return and you're free to pull the trigger on another deal as long as you promptly tell the first guy that your proposal is now off the table.

 

[radballs]

More specifically, do you think that trade negotiations can get to the point of no return where it is mutually understood that a trade will happen even though no official proposals have been entered?

If you're distinguishing between "made" and "entered," then the answer is yes. Once you say "OK, you've got a deal," you're past the point of no return even if nothing's been entered into the league's software.But if you've never gotten to the point where a proposal has been made and accepted, then you're not past the point of no return and you're free to pull the trigger on another deal as long as you promptly tell the first guy that your proposal is now off the table.

Regardless of league software, if you had conversations that got you to this point, then it SHOULD be a done deal in my eyes. Otherwise, the potential trading partner is someone I'd never want to deal with.

 

[Dirty Weasel]

Here is the question - do you feel you screwed over the guy? If not, don't sweat it. Some FF'ers love to talk trades, but never go through with it. I am constantly talking trades, most of which go nowhere. the last few years in my league, here are some doozies I've been involved with the last few years:

- I traded away Priest Holmes for Brian Westbrook the same night Priest went down. Priest never played again.

- I traded away Curtis Martin for Corey Dillon at the start of last year. Curtis didn't play at all in 2006.

- I traded away Eric Johnson for Jeremy Shockey before the 2005 season. Eric sat all of 2005.

In all of those cases, I had a feeling that the players I was trading were toast, but at the time nothing was sure. Did I screw over each of those guys? I sure did. Can I sleep at night? Yup. Can you?

 

[thayman]

I can see how owner A might be mad. He may be under the impression that you were just using him to fleece owner B the entire time. In the future, what I like to do is just make sure owner A knows that owner B just upped the ante big time. Something like "hey I know we were talking but owner B just offered x,y,z and I like that alot more sorry"

 

[zed2283]

I agree with most responses here that team A may have taken a "you snooze, you lose" proposition and that it's his fault that he missed out on the trade (granted, in your eyes).On the other hand, I'd really like more information about what you shared with team B regarding your "proposed deal" with team A. If I was team A, I might be pissed at you but it would all depend on your delivery. If you just came out and said, "Look guys, I'm trying to move player X. Send me your offers." That's cool too. But, you should always give the first guy to respond the first right of refusal in my mind unless the terms aren't equal. I could be wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that you worked team A to the breaking point, and then team B jumped in with an offer that was much better. Well, at least if you're going to work both of them against each other, you should allow the first guy the chance to match...Unless, you think he might have a rep of just feeling people out .......... I mean, this seriously depends on a ton of factors that you haven't shared with anyone. Not sure if I'd ever want to deal with you either ............

I agree with this. Did you screw owner A over? Probably not. But you should have come back to him and said "hey, I've got this other offer. What do you think?"

 

[faulkfan]

Some might argue that "trade ethics" is an oxymoron since we're all out there doing what we can to get deals done and improve our teams while paying as little as possible.

Regardless, the earlier point is thusfar the best advice given...you need to communicate. It can be argued that you should have gone back to owner A and told him the offer you got from owner B, I don't think it would be a bad thing, but I don't think it is a requirement. You do, however, need to assure the other owner that you weren't using him to leverage owner B.

Ultimately, if you have stuff that you aren't telling us that took place then you're the only one who can answer the question of whether or not you owe him something.

 

[Pipes]

I agree with most responses here that team A may have taken a "you snooze, you lose" proposition and that it's his fault that he missed out on the trade (granted, in your eyes).On the other hand, I'd really like more information about what you shared with team B regarding your "proposed deal" with team A. If I was team A, I might be pissed at you but it would all depend on your delivery. If you just came out and said, "Look guys, I'm trying to move player X. Send me your offers." That's cool too. But, you should always give the first guy to respond the first right of refusal in my mind unless the terms aren't equal. I could be wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that you worked team A to the breaking point, and then team B jumped in with an offer that was much better. Well, at least if you're going to work both of them against each other, you should allow the first guy the chance to match...Unless, you think he might have a rep of just feeling people out .......... I mean, this seriously depends on a ton of factors that you haven't shared with anyone. Not sure if I'd ever want to deal with you either ............

I agree with this. Did you screw owner A over? Probably not. But you should have come back to him and said "hey, I've got this other offer. What do you think?"

Since you had been negociating for a while with team A at least have the common courtesy to let him know that you had another solid offer on the table. Who knows maybe he comes back and beats team B's offer.Unethical no but I'm guessing you burnt a bridge with team A and just lost a potential trading partner in the future.Why are people assuming team A was dragging this thing out when the poster clearly states that both parties were hammering out a deal?

 

[cowpie]

I agree with most responses here that team A may have taken a "you snooze, you lose" proposition and that it's his fault that he missed out on the trade (granted, in your eyes).On the other hand, I'd really like more information about what you shared with team B regarding your "proposed deal" with team A. If I was team A, I might be pissed at you but it would all depend on your delivery. If you just came out and said, "Look guys, I'm trying to move player X. Send me your offers." That's cool too. But, you should always give the first guy to respond the first right of refusal in my mind unless the terms aren't equal. I could be wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that you worked team A to the breaking point, and then team B jumped in with an offer that was much better. Well, at least if you're going to work both of them against each other, you should allow the first guy the chance to match...Unless, you think he might have a rep of just feeling people out .......... I mean, this seriously depends on a ton of factors that you haven't shared with anyone. Not sure if I'd ever want to deal with you either ............

in our league, it has been preset that it is not a deal until it is entered and accepted. I agree with this. Did you screw owner A over? Probably not. But you should have come back to him and said "hey, I've got this other offer. What do you think?"

Since you had been negociating for a while with team A at least have the common courtesy to let him know that you had another solid offer on the table. Who knows maybe he comes back and beats team B's offer.Unethical no but I'm guessing you burnt a bridge with team A and just lost a potential trading partner in the future.Why are people assuming team A was dragging this thing out when the poster clearly states that both parties were hammering out a deal?

depends on who was dragging it out. if neither of you put it in the system, then player a loses out . sorry. however if he put it in and you never accepted it, after saying "DONE- no changies, i just have to get to my cpu" then that is badif it was an if you put it in i will accept, and he never put it in, the you are right. how long can you wait for him to put it in. i know i have had tons of trades like that then lose out on the deal. to someone else, but i usually know that they are also dealing with others. that is why you should propose it yourself and use the scare tactic and say "i have a similar deal proposed already in the system to you and several other teams and i am looking to make a move. they are all in the system first come first serve. maybe he would have traded 2 weeks prior. but like i said, if you said done deal we just have to get to the cpu and than backed off, that means your word is no good. however, i fyou left yourself an out like get it in and i will approve it, unless someone else makes a better offer before hand, thenthere is your out.lanother way to avoid this is to get on the phone wiht the person and agree send and accept while on the phone.

 

[Phurfur]

My question is this "Why didn't you enter the proposal"? Your process is at fault. Why are you emailing possible proposals, it should work like this. You enter a proposal, he rejects this proposal and enters a counter, etc.. If I talk to someone about a trade it means nothing until the proposal is entered.

 

[lions327]

I sent him a final suggestion and told him to enter a trade proposal if it sounded good to him.

To me, this sounds like you are telling owner A that if he likes what you suggested, then you have a deal. You did not attach any conditions or mention time limits or restraints. You did not mention you are considering other offers. You are not necessarily obligated to tell him, but I think you should have to keep a good relationship long term. That is the only problem. I think in situations like this, you are better served to add that nothing is official until the offer is accepted and make it known you are in talks with other owners, and will take any good offer you get.

I think it's important to not have bad feelings over any trade talks because that will hurt your future ability to trade with them. While he would not have a legit complaint, since nothing was official, this would potentially leave a bad taste for him because this does sound like you are telling him you will do this if he likes it and sends the proposal.

 

[TheLastDispatch]

Thumbs up to Bri here. Just apologize for poor communication and move on.

 

[Ducegonads]

No deal was made then you have the right to do whatever you want.

I personally do not shop multiple owners at a time. Just the way I conduct negotiations. It's the way it happened that has team A pissed, obviously. Especially if you told team B what the deal was you were working on. It gives team B inside info that team A probably feels was private. All that being said you may have burned a bridge. Move on, but you won't have it easy next time with team A.

 

[Dhizz]

No deal was made then you have the right to do whatever you want. I personally do not shop multiple owners at a time. Just the way I conduct negotiations. It's the way it happened that has team A pissed, obviously. Especially if you told team B what the deal was you were working on. It gives team B inside info that team A probably feels was private. All that being said you may have burned a bridge. Move on, but you won't have it easy next time with team A.

Like the real world, people need to get things down on paper. That means offers and counter offers done through the FF website. Discussing it in e-mail for a week? It's painful enough e-mailing my GF back, let alone hand holding FF trade discussions.What do you even discuss? Try to pump up your guys, and devalue his? Does that even work on people? Don't you ever go "If your guys are so great, why exactly are you trading them?”.I can only imagine a week of "I might be willing to do this, if you do that, and Venus aligns with Mars, we could maybe agree that we'd like to trade, but not name players". You're far better off sending the guy a deal, if he sees it, sits on it, revoke it. So the next time, he knows a deal won't be sitting there while he can run to the AC forum for opinions. I always insist on offers/counters done on the website. If a guy can't bring himself to do that, it's time to move on. Why should the guy be upset? He had a theoretical conversation about a trade that might happen, with an unknown amount of players. He had exclusive trade rights? In what world does that exist? If you’re going to belabor a deal for a week, expect the other owner to be shopping the league. That’s just good business. If someone asks me what I want for LT, I’ll send them a deal with LT in it though the site. If they want to counter, send me a counter. Don’t send me an e-mail about how many carries LT has had, about how he’s almost 30, about how your sister gave him VD this off-season. Throw an offer on the table and lets move this along.Someone actually SENT a REAL offer. Wow shocking he missed out. Maybe he should learn to throw some real offers on the table to move things along. I just hate guys who act like 12 year old girls getting their first period. It's a trade, its normal; don't be scared, people do it all the time. I simply refuse to waste hours with a person who won't throw real offers on the table. It's pretend. It's a bunch of 1's and 0's on some hard drive in Texas. Man up, make a trade, or go buy a cute cheerleading outfit and watch the real men throw some meat around the league.Yes the rant is over.

 

[slayer666]

My question is this "Why didn't you enter the proposal"? Your process is at fault. Why are you emailing possible proposals, it should work like this. You enter a proposal, he rejects this proposal and enters a counter, etc.. If I talk to someone about a trade it means nothing until the proposal is entered.

Exactly.Talk is cheap in FF just like it is in real life. There are many people in this hobby who like to drag out negotiations and then act hurt when you make a deal with someone else. Until the "accept" button is clicked on the league software, there is no trade.

 

[Pictus Cat]

Trade reputation would be more accurate. What do you want yours to be? I wouldn't care, as long as your consistent and direct with your actions. Let the guy know if this was a mistake or this is how you do trades and will try to give him a few minutes to match next time if you think its possible.

 

[Scrubby Dubs]

Yeah, I probably should not have pulled the rug out from under him. I think we'll be ok, though. I appreciate all the responses.

 

[SSOG]

What do you even discuss? Try to pump up your guys, and devalue his? Does that even work on people? Don't you ever go "If your guys are so great, why exactly are you trading them?”.

I'm in several leagues with a good friend of mine, and we are probably the two most active traders in any of our leagues. Probably 50% of the trades I make are with this particular owner. I have had trade negotiations with him that have stretched for weeks before a deal was finally consummated. Sometimes it just takes a while for both parties to figure out how the other side really feels about certain players.

 

[faulkfan]

What do you even discuss? Try to pump up your guys, and devalue his? Does that even work on people? Don't you ever go "If your guys are so great, why exactly are you trading them?”.

I'm in several leagues with a good friend of mine, and we are probably the two most active traders in any of our leagues. Probably 50% of the trades I make are with this particular owner. I have had trade negotiations with him that have stretched for weeks before a deal was finally consummated. Sometimes it just takes a while for both parties to figure out how the other side really feels about certain players.

I have on again off again negotiations right now with two different owners (involving different players) that have been active for well over a month. We touch base every week at least and then mull things over, then talk two or three days in a row and make some changes, then I'll send an offer and they'll think about it and reject it after a week, then I'll alter it based on their comments and the process starts over again. That being said, if I had the opportunity to make a deal somewhere else I would and they both know that.I agree with everyone who has mentioned that it doesn't look like you've done anything wrong, but the earlier comment about your trade reputation is what is on the line is spot on. Coming to us and asking us if you were wrong is worthless, ask owner A what he THINKS you did wrong and address that situation with him. If he needs an apology then give it because you may want to deal with him later on and burnt bridges are tough to rebuild in the middle of the season.Good luck.