That's a pretty hollow argument. If he was great as a HC and failed as an OC, we could say "ok, maybe his HC forced him to run a particular style of offense a particular way...perhaps he didn't have the authority to make a call.Turner failed when he was a head coach. Much better as an OC.
He got multiple monster years out of Terry Allen. He got a massive fantasy year out of Lamont Jordan. I don't think either of these two guys were even worthy of being in the upper half of starting RB's in the NFL those years.When you look at the people he has been successful with, they are HOF'ers on STACKED teams.
There are one of two conditions that apply to every player you mentioned:He got multiple monster years out of Terry Allen. He got a massive fantasy year out of Lamont Jordan. I don't think either of these two guys were even worthy of being in the upper half of starting RB's in the NFL those years.When you look at the people he has been successful with, they are HOF'ers on STACKED teams.
He got multiple monster years out of Stephen Davis. He was good but certainly not remotely in the ballpark of a HOF type talent.
He spent two years with Ricky Williams. Best two years of Rickey's career.
He spent one year with Frank Gore. Gore broke out that year and had his best season ever, in fact he's not even come within 400 yards rushing of that year since plus it's the only time in his career he went for over 60 catches.
He got to Dallas afters Emmit's rookie year, when he ran for 937 yards. In the 3 years they spent together Emmit had 3 of 4 best seasons of his entire pro career.
LT had better years without Norv but to be fair Norv only had him as a rookie and than got him back during his declining phase, and still for the most part managed to get production out of him.
Mathews health held him back and even than he was #7 fantasy back in 2011 and the team production at RB that year was outstanding.
Only RB I've ever seen Norv fail was Sproles. He did not know how to properly use him, limited him to much.
There is no coach or OC I'd rather have coaching my fantasy RB than Norv Turner.
How does the Browns OLine compare to the lines he had with Allen and Jordan? Or the others?I can't help you if you refuse to look at the facts. He's the only guy to get strong production from guys like Terry Allen and Lamont Jordan and most of the actual good RB's he had enjoyed their best or best seasons with him.
That's just factual but go ahead and ignore it with this long winded drivel about volume.
Comparing Trent to a non pass catching option like Turner is absurd.
I honestly don't know. Do you?FUBAR said:How does the Browns OLine compare to the lines he had with Allen and Jordan? Or the others?I can't help you if you refuse to look at the facts. He's the only guy to get strong production from guys like Terry Allen and Lamont Jordan and most of the actual good RB's he had enjoyed their best or best seasons with him.
That's just factual but go ahead and ignore it with this long winded drivel about volume.
Comparing Trent to a non pass catching option like Turner is absurd.
I have a feeling he'll become the trendy pick for RB3 come August, which means he won't be available at 5 in most leagues.strongly considering him with my #5 overall pick in redraft after ADP, Foster and Calvin are gone
maybe, depends on everyones flavor. The top3 picks are some combo of ADP Foster and Calvin in most re-draftsI have a feeling he'll become the trendy pick for RB3 come August, which means he won't be available at 5 in most leagues.strongly considering him with my #5 overall pick in redraft after ADP, Foster and Calvin are gone
Spiller is going that high now? I would think he is at least one tier lower. Is Jackson still in Buffalo?maybe, depends on everyones flavor. The top3 picks are some combo of ADP Foster and Calvin in most re-drafts Im guessin the next tier includes TRichRRiceMcCoyMartinSpiller any of them can be the next pick, OR even Brees/RodgersI have a feeling he'll become the trendy pick for RB3 come August, which means he won't be available at 5 in most leagues.strongly considering him with my #5 overall pick in redraft after ADP, Foster and Calvin are gone
My thoughts exactly. Agree with everything else though.Spiller is going that high now? I would think he is at least one tier lower. Is Jackson still in Buffalo?maybe, depends on everyones flavor. The top3 picks are some combo of ADP Foster and Calvin in most re-drafts Im guessin the next tier includes TRichRRiceMcCoyMartinSpiller any of them can be the next pick, OR even Brees/RodgersI have a feeling he'll become the trendy pick for RB3 come August, which means he won't be available at 5 in most leagues.strongly considering him with my #5 overall pick in redraft after ADP, Foster and Calvin are gone
I am not sure how it compares, but the Browns have a pretty good offensive line. Both tackles are probowlers, and Mack at center is also a probowler. Also SOME possibility of trading way down in the first and taking a guard.FUBAR said:How does the Browns OLine compare to the lines he had with Allen and Jordan? Or the others?I can't help you if you refuse to look at the facts. He's the only guy to get strong production from guys like Terry Allen and Lamont Jordan and most of the actual good RB's he had enjoyed their best or best seasons with him.
That's just factual but go ahead and ignore it with this long winded drivel about volume.
Comparing Trent to a non pass catching option like Turner is absurd.
why would anyone be worried about a 32 year old journeyman that cant stay healthy?Spiller is going that high now? I would think he is at least one tier lower. Is Jackson still in Buffalo?maybe, depends on everyones flavor. The top3 picks are some combo of ADP Foster and Calvin in most re-drafts Im guessin the next tier includes TRichRRiceMcCoyMartinSpiller any of them can be the next pick, OR even Brees/RodgersI have a feeling he'll become the trendy pick for RB3 come August, which means he won't be available at 5 in most leagues.strongly considering him with my #5 overall pick in redraft after ADP, Foster and Calvin are gone
The average isn't going to increase too too much if the number of good situations/opportunities doesn't increase.I am not sure how it compares, but the Browns have a pretty good offensive line. Both tackles are probowlers, and Mack at center is also a probowler. Also SOME possibility of trading way down in the first and taking a guard.How does the Browns OLine compare to the lines he had with Allen and Jordan? Or the others?I can't help you if you refuse to look at the facts. He's the only guy to get strong production from guys like Terry Allen and Lamont Jordan and most of the actual good RB's he had enjoyed their best or best seasons with him.
That's just factual but go ahead and ignore it with this long winded drivel about volume.
Comparing Trent to a non pass catching option like Turner is absurd.
Also, I realize T-Rich only averaged 3.6 YPC last year, but he did have MANY 3rd and short type of carries, and goaline carries. Also, he was never fully healthy at any point last year. He didn't even take part in training camp because of the knee scope. I think his 3.6 YPC doesn't really do him justice for last year if you want to just look at stats. He certainly showed he is a baller. And the current coaching staff is easily better than what we had last year. My god, Shurmur is the dumbest human ever.
I would be surprised if he doesn't average 4.5 or more this year if he manages to stay relatively healthy with no major setbacks like last year.
(Not necessarily a reply to you, sentiment throughout the thread)Turner failed when he was a head coach. Much better as an OC.
Nothing could be worse from a coaching perspective than what the Browns had the past two seasons. Shurmur really SHOULD go down as the worst head coach ever, and he was also calling the plays which was incredibly stupid for any 1st time head coach, let alone someone with his lack of ability to make any quick decisions or adjustments.Bri said:(Not necessarily a reply to you, sentiment throughout the thread)Turner failed when he was a head coach. Much better as an OC.
Most NFL HCs manage while OCs coach.
There's far less coaching to be an NFL coach than people seem to fully grasp; and it is difficult to understand.
Turner is a fine coach, but a poor manager.
This is not to say Turner is Paul Brown and can succeed making any player into a great player like a magician. The Browns are still the Browns. They have shown considerable improvement at some positions. They are sorely lacking at others though. Most of all they lack confidence and are not efficient at all. I believe there isn't too much teaching that needs to be done with their run game, yet their passing game is horribly disorganized and undisciplined. Further, I think fixing the passing game cures everything in Cleveland and so I'm not sure if Turner is the right man for the job there. It's possible and we'll see. I just don't think improved run game coaching (Turner's forte) can impact the running game as positively as an improved passing game would.
Are you talking about the Viking's Peterson here or the Jaguar's MJD? Or maybe the Bear's Forte to a lesser extent?It seems absurd to me that certain persons continue to project a super-monster 2013 for Trent.
It is the Browns. Wait. Let me repeat that. The Browns. Have you ongoing familiarity with this organization?
Guys want to imagine 350 for 1600 and 12 plus 60 for 600 and 4. I would love to imagine it too, but I don't think so.
They have an average QB at best, young raw WRs (Gordon, Little, Nelson), and an average line, supporting an average offense.
Trent will be the big thing inside all that youth and mediocrity, I agree. But I think realistically he caps somewere around:
300 for 1200 and 8 plus 40 for 300 and 2.
If I am right, that's really good stuff. But it's not insane. His value is partially projected on his talent and youth and partially on misplaced hope, implausible optimism and the endowment effect on his owner psyches.
Be that as it may, that's 340 touches, 1500 yards, and 10 TDs. I'll take that kind of production from a RB in round 1 of all my fantasy drafts. Those kind of workhorses, even with a potentially lower YPC than the top tier, are very uncommon in today's NFL.It seems absurd to me that certain persons continue to project a super-monster 2013 for Trent.
It is the Browns. Wait. Let me repeat that. The Browns. Have you ongoing familiarity with this organization?
Guys want to imagine 350 for 1600 and 12 plus 60 for 600 and 4. I would love to imagine it too, but I don't think so.
They have an average QB at best, young raw WRs (Gordon, Little, Nelson), and an average line, supporting an average offense.
Trent will be the big thing inside all that youth and mediocrity, I agree. But I think realistically he caps somewere around:
300 for 1200 and 8 plus 40 for 300 and 2.
If I am right, that's really good stuff. But it's not insane. His value is partially projected on his talent and youth and partially on misplaced hope, implausible optimism and the endowment effect on his owner psyches.
In a ReDraft for 2013, I take Foster and Peterson in front of him. Maybe Charles too in PPR, who, unlike Trent, I think really is in line for a monster, over-the-top-blow-em-up year Not like I'm saying Trent isn't an early first round pick. He just isn't the demi-god that some are spouting, I figure.Be that as it may, that's 340 touches, 1500 yards, and 10 TDs. I'll take that kind of production from a RB in round 1 of all my fantasy drafts. Those kind of workhorses, even with a potentially lower YPC than the top tier, are very uncommon in today's NFL.It seems absurd to me that certain persons continue to project a super-monster 2013 for Trent.
By the way, Spiller was a top 10 back last year and only touched the ball about 250 times. No reason why Spiller can't be a top 10 back again, even if Fred is around to take 200-250 touches.why would anyone be worried about a 32 year old journeyman that cant stay healthy?Spiller is going that high now? I would think he is at least one tier lower. Is Jackson still in Buffalo?maybe, depends on everyones flavor. The top3 picks are some combo of ADP Foster and Calvin in most re-drafts Im guessin the next tier includes TRichRRiceMcCoyMartinSpiller any of them can be the next pick, OR even Brees/RodgersI have a feeling he'll become the trendy pick for RB3 come August, which means he won't be available at 5 in most leagues.strongly considering him with my #5 overall pick in redraft after ADP, Foster and Calvin are gone
I see spiller having just as much of a chance as Trent as being a top5 RB
The AFC North defenses aren't that good anymore. PIT is overrated, lost Harrison and Paolumalu can never stay healthy. BAL just lost Lewis and Ed Reed.there is no doubt that Norv Turner will maximize RB production from the Browns' offense..Richardson *should* be in line for a monster year, but it's wise to temper expectations based on a few things:
Richardson avg'd 3.6 ypc last season. Even with Norv Turner, it's hard to imagine Richardson moving up to,say, 4.5 ypc..
AFC North is full of good defenses..Richardson had 101 carries for 383 yards ( 3.79ypc), and 3 rush TDs vs the division last year..
opposing defenses stacked the line to stop the run ,forcing Weeden to throw..that trend is likely to continue..
Richardson tends to get dinged up quite a bit..
Norv will no doubt work his magic, but I'm more inclined to let someone else take Richardson as a top pick, as there is simply too much risk involved..
Yes, but the OC is Norv turner, I expect Chud to let Turner run his OHead Coach is from Carolina's 8-headed monster. Lewis and Hardesty are not that great but I'm watching who they grab in the draft or undrafted. T-Rich value can take a real hit if his workload is cut into.
No, I would hate if we take Geno at all.IF the Browns take Geno Smith, what does that do to Trent's value? Up right?
I don't expect a MONSTER SUPER year, but a very very nice year, top 5 RB would be very reasonable.Evil G said:It seems absurd to me that certain persons continue to project a super-monster 2013 for Trent.
It is the Browns. Wait. Let me repeat that. The Browns. Have you ongoing familiarity with this organization?
Guys want to imagine 350 for 1600 and 12 plus 60 for 600 and 4. I would love to imagine it too, but I don't think so.
They have an average QB at best, young raw WRs (Gordon, Little, Nelson), and an average line, supporting an average offense.
Trent will be the big thing inside all that youth and mediocrity, I agree. But I think realistically he caps somewere around:
300 for 1200 and 8 plus 40 for 300 and 2.
If I am right, that's really good stuff. But it's not insane. His value is partially projected on his talent and youth and partially on misplaced hope, implausible optimism and the endowment effect on his owner psyches.
They are, ask any Cleveland fan who watches the actual games. Weeden had all day to throw last year, just wasnt all that great, which wasnt helped out by the most inexperienced WR group ever.A couple of people have said that Cleveland's o-line is mediocre. I thought they were supposed to be a very decent line?
Remember that Richardson finished RB9 last year even with a 3.6 YPC. That has nowhere to go but up. With his reception ability and ability to score 10+ TDs, he's a fairly safe pick in the middle of the 1st round. And Jackson NEVER scored as many times in one season as Richardson did, so while I see how you can compare, it's obvious that Richardson gets more reps by the goalline and shown to be able to punch it in.The more I read this the more it seems familiar to SJAX in the early days; people salivating over this big back that can do it all, wanting to connect dots so bad and always forgetting that the Rams, as a team, simply were not good enough to justify this many opportunities. Sure, the talent was obviously there, but people just tended to put too much emphasis on that side and ignore the rest. So, year after year, SJAX got drafted as a top 5 overall and year after year, he would put up top 12-ish numbers that would "satisfy" people but in all honesty was never worth the true price of taking the player as a top 5 overall.
I think Richardson will fall into this category. You take him and you won't be crying about a disappointment, but when you hear people saying "I might take ADP and Foster and Martin over him, but that's it" or something similar, then I think you're not getting the max benefit of the pick. All day long and without blinking I would take Calvin and, in a ppr, Charles and McCoy over him.
The Rbs can certainly be argued, I'll give that, but as far as taking a player at #4 or #5 and KNOWING that I will get my investment back and with interest, its Calvin when you start talking about the price you need to pay. Otherwise, I trade Down just a smidge and then pick Richardson and I feel a lot better about it at that point.
Can't a guy love them both? Dynasty wise they are my #1 and #3 RB's. For next season right now I've got Richardson right inside the top 5 and but Spiller in the RB5-7 range.bicycle_seat_sniffer said:and I love how some of you guys are doubting Spiller, makes me think he might slide to the bottom of round1 in leagues.
Best value out there then, He is everything TRich is and he can take it to the house on any given play. which is what Trich lacks IMO. Hopefully the new coach in Buff is smarter than Chan Gailey.
In laying out some sarcasm for the Browns and extolling the 'average-ness' of their line, perhaps I misspoke. I am not an expert on the offensive line play in professional football. But I am a guy that goes a long way to see the Browns play, twice a year, on average, and I watch their games often.And to state the most brutally obvious, they have wallowed in mediocrity and inconsistency for as long as they been in Cleveland (2nd incarnation).To presume that Trent will be affected by this trend is not exactly a quantum leap. Trent is a sure fire, can't miss mid-first rounder. I admit that. I am rather being critical of a certain perspective out there that imagines wayyyyy more for Trent. Words like 'monster' or 'untouchable' after 2013.I don't think this hope for Trent is on the mark, and I am saying it. For a Canadian guy that has no real 'home team', but yet has a soft spot in his heart for the Browns, I hope I am wrong.ghostguy123, on 25 Apr 2013 - 03:23, said:
I don't expect a MONSTER SUPER year, but a very very nice year, top 5 RB would be very reasonable.We need better guards, which is widely knows to people that follow the team, but there is no way anyone can say our line is "average". In fact if they do end up trading down and taking one of the good guards, our line could be at or near the top REAL soon.Evil G said:Evil G, on 24 Apr 2013 - 15:44, said:It seems absurd to me that certain persons continue to project a super-monster 2013 for Trent.
The Clev Oline has been underrated for some time, IMO. The Oline, it's personal and ability, are limited largly by the lack of respectable players at QB, WR and TE. From the games I saw, teams loaded up to stop Richardson and the Clev running game. That won't change until Weeden and the passing attack improve, significantly. The good news is that group was young and inexperienced. Improvement should be expected. The real question is to what degree?In laying out some sarcasm for the Browns and extolling the 'average-ness' of their line, perhaps I misspoke.I don't expect a MONSTER SUPER year, but a very very nice year, top 5 RB would be very reasonable.Evil G said:It seems absurd to me that certain persons continue to project a super-monster 2013 for Trent.
We need better guards, which is widely knows to people that follow the team, but there is no way anyone can say our line is "average".
In fact if they do end up trading down and taking one of the good guards, our line could be at or near the top REAL soon.
I am not an expert on the offensive line play in professional football.
But I am a guy that goes a long way to see the Browns play, twice a year, on average, and I watch their games often.
And to state the most brutally obvious, they have wallowed in medicority and inconsistency for as long as they been in Cleveland (2nd incarnation).
To presume that Trent will be affected by this trend is not exactly a quantum leap. Trent is a sure fire, can't miss mid-first rounder. I admit that. I am rather being critical of a certain perspective out there that imagines wayyyyy more for Trent. Words like 'monster' or 'untouchable' after 2013.
I don't think this hope for Trent is on the mark, and I am saying it. For a Canadian guy that has no real 'home team', but yet has a soft spot in his heart for the Browns, I hope I am wrong.
Gordon is turning into an excellent player. Little also played well the 2nd half of last year with maybe ONE drop, very good improvement.The Clev Oline has been underrated for some time, IMO. The Oline, it's personal and ability, are limited largly by the lack of respectable players at QB, WR and TE. From the games I saw, teams loaded up to stop Richardson and the Clev running game. That won't change until Weeden and the passing attack improve, significantly. The good news is that group was young and inexperienced. Improvement should be expected. The real question is to what degree?In laying out some sarcasm for the Browns and extolling the 'average-ness' of their line, perhaps I misspoke.I don't expect a MONSTER SUPER year, but a very very nice year, top 5 RB would be very reasonable.Evil G said:It seems absurd to me that certain persons continue to project a super-monster 2013 for Trent.
We need better guards, which is widely knows to people that follow the team, but there is no way anyone can say our line is "average".
In fact if they do end up trading down and taking one of the good guards, our line could be at or near the top REAL soon.
I am not an expert on the offensive line play in professional football.
But I am a guy that goes a long way to see the Browns play, twice a year, on average, and I watch their games often.
And to state the most brutally obvious, they have wallowed in medicority and inconsistency for as long as they been in Cleveland (2nd incarnation).
To presume that Trent will be affected by this trend is not exactly a quantum leap. Trent is a sure fire, can't miss mid-first rounder. I admit that. I am rather being critical of a certain perspective out there that imagines wayyyyy more for Trent. Words like 'monster' or 'untouchable' after 2013.
I don't think this hope for Trent is on the mark, and I am saying it. For a Canadian guy that has no real 'home team', but yet has a soft spot in his heart for the Browns, I hope I am wrong.