Dickies
Footballguy
My assumption was that you were referring to Sondland's testimony. If there is evidence of Trump specifically saying "no quid pro quo" before the WB report was known to the WH then I'd like to know about it.
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Trump supporters only - what was Trump doing? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter bostonfred
- Start date
pinkham13
Footballguy
OMG the President asked about corruption and may be trying to drain the swamp let’s impeach!
bostonfred
Footballguy
Sure, we can add that to the timeline then. But this thread is about what trump did, and why you or other supporters think it was ok. I would ask you to be respectful of that by not changing the subject to ask me why someone changed parties. That's a worthy topic for another thread and i don't want you to feel like it's not getting the discussion it deserves when you bring it up in a thread about something else. Please stay on topic.
pinkham13
Footballguy
I understand what you are trying to say but because it’s happening in the middle of the coming vote gives it too much weight to dismiss. I would be more concerned as a potential trump voter if republicans were jumping ship before the vote.
Thank you for adding it to the timeline. I guess we kind of have to watch it unfold now. Thanks for a great banter.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
What trump did:
2017 - Congress approves aid to Ukraine, trump does not hold up aid to investigate Biden because he is busy with the Russian collusion delusion.
2018 - Congress approves aid to Ukraine, trump does not hold up aid to investigate Biden because he is busy with the Russian collusion delusion.
Spring 2019 - Congress approves aid to Ukraine, trump does hold up aid to investigate Biden because he is no longer busy with the Russian collusion delusion and decides that this is a good time to investigate a former sitting vice president corruptly abusing power to get favors.
July 24th trump delays the congressionally approved aid to Ukraine
July 25th 2019 trump speaks to Ukrainian president zelensky and asks him to investigate Biden
September 7th existence of whistleblower report is reported
September 9th trump tells Sondland he wants no quid pro quo
(Dec 17, 2019 congressman Jeff van Drew changes from Democrat to Republican)
Let's talk about why he did those things and why it's ok
2017 - Congress approves aid to Ukraine, trump does not hold up aid to investigate Biden because he is busy with the Russian collusion delusion.
2018 - Congress approves aid to Ukraine, trump does not hold up aid to investigate Biden because he is busy with the Russian collusion delusion.
Spring 2019 - Congress approves aid to Ukraine, trump does hold up aid to investigate Biden because he is no longer busy with the Russian collusion delusion and decides that this is a good time to investigate a former sitting vice president corruptly abusing power to get favors.
July 24th trump delays the congressionally approved aid to Ukraine
July 25th 2019 trump speaks to Ukrainian president zelensky and asks him to investigate Biden
September 7th existence of whistleblower report is reported
September 9th trump tells Sondland he wants no quid pro quo
(Dec 17, 2019 congressman Jeff van Drew changes from Democrat to Republican)
Let's talk about why he did those things and why it's ok
pinkham13
Footballguy
Now do the same timeline for the Biden corruption which is much more criminal than the hearsay witness who won’t even come forward. Talk about kangaroo court.
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pinkham13
Footballguy
I guess the short answer to your question what was Trump doing? He was being the President of the United States. No one else has taken China and Russia to task like he has. He negotiated better deals with Canada and Mexico for the U.S. too. My friends 401ks are booming. How can you hate a guy who fights for America and wins?
Yeah let’s impeach on hearsay from an unidentifiable partisan hack. That’s the definition of kangaroo court. Basic due process denied to the President.
https://www.bakerlaw-az.com/blog/2016/05/due-process-your-right-to-face-your-accuser.shtml
Please add President Trump’s due process rights were violated to the timeline and that house rules were violated to ram through the Inquiry with no minority representation.
Yeah let’s impeach on hearsay from an unidentifiable partisan hack. That’s the definition of kangaroo court. Basic due process denied to the President.
https://www.bakerlaw-az.com/blog/2016/05/due-process-your-right-to-face-your-accuser.shtml
Please add President Trump’s due process rights were violated to the timeline and that house rules were violated to ram through the Inquiry with no minority representation.
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RBM
Footballguy
Two questions.
1. Does the Biden situation merit a much much closer look from us with the help of Ukraine? ABSOLUTELY... Not even up for debate. Only the most dishonest among us would deny.
2. Was it absolutely appropriate to suspend aid so Trump, Pence, Pompeo can properly vet a NEW president of the very corrupt Ukraine? ABSOLUTELY... Not even up for debate. Only the most dishonest among us would deny.
1. Does the Biden situation merit a much much closer look from us with the help of Ukraine? ABSOLUTELY... Not even up for debate. Only the most dishonest among us would deny.
2. Was it absolutely appropriate to suspend aid so Trump, Pence, Pompeo can properly vet a NEW president of the very corrupt Ukraine? ABSOLUTELY... Not even up for debate. Only the most dishonest among us would deny.
pinkham13
Footballguy
You forgot to add that Latvia escalated the probe to a criminal investigation of Burisma and the Bidens today.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-ukraine-widens-criminal-investigation-into-biden-connected-burisma-report-says
https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-ukraine-widens-criminal-investigation-into-biden-connected-burisma-report-says
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Totally on board with this for the purposes of this thread. This is your thread to explain what trump did and why he shouldn't be impeached or removed.
April 2019 Zelensky become Ukrainian president. Trump doesn't know him yet, but the last guy was corrupt and this guy ran on an anti corruption platform so he wants to vet him.
May and June 2019 - Trump discovers new information about Bidens and Ukrainian corruption. That definitely needs to be investigated.
July 24th aid is officially put on hold
July 25th trump asks zelensky to investigate Biden but doesn't mention on the call that the aid is on hold and doesn't discuss corruption except as it relates to Biden, Burisma and the crowdstrike server
July 25th Ukraine asks about the aid that's on hold
August 2019 plans made for Zelensky to announce Ukraine investigation of Biden
September 7th, 8th, 9th - whistleblower complaint becomes public
September 9th Trump tells Sondland there's no quid pro quo and that he wants nothing.
September 11th money was released
September 13th planned zelensky announcement on CNN of investigation into Biden is canceled
So far so good?
pinkham13
Footballguy
Add Trumps due process rights were violated https://www.bakerlaw-az.com/blog/2016/05/due-process-your-right-to-face-your-accuser.shtml
and Latvia stepped up probe to criminal investigation
https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-ukraine-widens-criminal-investigation-into-biden-connected-burisma-report-says
Then we good
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pinkham13
Footballguy
Is the part about democrats jumping ship before impeachment vote still in there?
https://tangle.substack.com/p/a-democrat-jumps-ship-to-republican
https://tangle.substack.com/p/a-democrat-jumps-ship-to-republican
pinkham13
Footballguy
If you don’t have the 17 FISA mistakes the FBI made in the timeline that Comey admitted to you today you miss the story and omit a big part of the conjured up narrative imposed on us by the fake news CNN
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/secret-fisa-court-issues-highly-unusual-rebuke-fbi-mistakes-n1103451
Please add the FBI sham Russian setup and the fact that CNN was sued to the timeline as supporting evidence of biased and fake news and improper kangaroo tactics.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/devin-nunes-sues-cnn
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/secret-fisa-court-issues-highly-unusual-rebuke-fbi-mistakes-n1103451
Please add the FBI sham Russian setup and the fact that CNN was sued to the timeline as supporting evidence of biased and fake news and improper kangaroo tactics.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/devin-nunes-sues-cnn
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Out of curiosity, what do you think the FISA warrant was for? You almost lost me at Latvia but now it definitely feels like you're going off topic.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
But I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter whether he said it before or after. You're trying to determine what his intent was. No one knows that unless he specifically told someone what his intent was.
Dickies
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
https://youtu.be/wJQaXa1WS3M
This is trump specifically answering what his intent was from the call with zelensky and the answer was that he wanted an investigation into Biden. Not corruption, just Biden.
The call transcript specifically says Biden repeatedly. That link is from the white house directly.
So to answer your question, we know exactly what his intent was, and it was not corruption in general. He specifically and repeatedly talked about his political opponent.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
I see you replying but you're not participating. This isn't a liberal echo chamber thread, this is your chance to educate us on your strongly held belief.
James Daulton
Footballguy
I know you asked for Trump supporters only, but it's been two days and it's going just as expected.
The Trump supporters have commented but made no attempt to lay out a logical timeline or reasoning behind any of your questions.
Everyone knows what Trump intended and why, his supporters simply don't care and nothing he does, short of giving amnesty to DACA kids, would turn them from him. This fact has been proven over and over again.
I applaud you for your efforts thought.
The Trump supporters have commented but made no attempt to lay out a logical timeline or reasoning behind any of your questions.
Everyone knows what Trump intended and why, his supporters simply don't care and nothing he does, short of giving amnesty to DACA kids, would turn them from him. This fact has been proven over and over again.
I applaud you for your efforts thought.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I'm not sure - things are known and they're not always immediately acted on
Does it matter? We can assume a million things, assumptions are a dime a dozen
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
@bostonfred this type of response is why you won't find any Trump supporters posting in here. What is the point? If you can't see this is a sham impeachment there is no helping you, sorry.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
you are right
I don't really care that Biden held allocations to Ukraine hostage until he got what the Obama administration wanted and I don't care that its happened many times exactly the same way in every administration with many presidents and countries.
Did Trump REALLY go too far? Absolutely not. Democrats have said they're going to impeach him on something from day One and it wasn't Stormy, it wasn't Russia, its not been taxes ........ everything they've looked at has failed so they're going with this one. And guess what? American's see it exactly for what it is.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I've consistently asked liberals to stay on topic and not to make these posts in this thread, so you should be safe here. Go ahead and make your case. This is your safe space.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I can't say whether it matters.
What i can say is that the president is currently being impeached because there's a clear fact pattern that many people think shows he corruptly asked another foreign government for assistance in the election.
There's another group that doesn't believe he's guilty. I am asking why. I am looking for a clear narrative of his actions where he is not guilty of abuse of power.
One importan part of the timeline is that he asked zelensky to investigate the bidens the day after aid was formally blocked, but didn't block aid to Ukraine when the previous Ukrainian president was in power.
You suggested that
So i asked some clarifying questions to find out why he was investigating in July 2019, after Biden announced as a presidential candidate.
But i think you answered the question here. It doesn't matter to you.
So here's the confusing thing.
You seem to be acknowledging that trump may have withheld aid for the investigation into Biden. That's not a commonly held opinion from Republicans but I appreciate that you have a different opinion and don't think it's going too far.
But here's some questions for you.
If the president didn't go too far when he withheld aid while asking another country to investigate a political rival and formally announce those investigations on television, then why was it so important to investigate a past vice president?
And why withhold hundreds of millions of dollars of congressionally approved aid until they did?
And why didn't he start withholding that aid until after Biden announced his candidacy?
And how many hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money are you OK with Democrats using to pressure foreign governments to help with their campaigns in the future?
bostonfred
Footballguy
That's a general question for trump supporters.
My understanding of the allegation about Joe Biden is that he withheld foreign aid to pressure Ukraine to (among other things) change the Ukrainian prosecutor.
The allegation about Hunter Biden is that he didn't deserve the job he got and was hired to get access to his dad. So Joe Biden may have withheld aid to fire the guy who was investigating his son, which could be construed as corrupt.
The allegation about trump is that he withheld foreign aid to pressure Ukraine to investigate Biden. That could similarly be construed as corrupt, for the same reason - it benefits himself.
The impeachment for abuse of power is because trump withheld aid for his own benefit.
For those of you who feel that it's ok for trump to do that because he was investigating corruption, what is it that specifically makes Biden's action (which may have been valid but arguably benefited his son) corrupt, but makes trump's action (which may have been valid but arguably benefited his campaign) not corrupt?
In other words, trump seems to have done the exact thing he's accusing Biden of doing, and trump and nearly every Republican has called what Biden was accused of "corruption". What specifically makes trump's actions different?
My understanding of the allegation about Joe Biden is that he withheld foreign aid to pressure Ukraine to (among other things) change the Ukrainian prosecutor.
The allegation about Hunter Biden is that he didn't deserve the job he got and was hired to get access to his dad. So Joe Biden may have withheld aid to fire the guy who was investigating his son, which could be construed as corrupt.
The allegation about trump is that he withheld foreign aid to pressure Ukraine to investigate Biden. That could similarly be construed as corrupt, for the same reason - it benefits himself.
The impeachment for abuse of power is because trump withheld aid for his own benefit.
For those of you who feel that it's ok for trump to do that because he was investigating corruption, what is it that specifically makes Biden's action (which may have been valid but arguably benefited his son) corrupt, but makes trump's action (which may have been valid but arguably benefited his campaign) not corrupt?
In other words, trump seems to have done the exact thing he's accusing Biden of doing, and trump and nearly every Republican has called what Biden was accused of "corruption". What specifically makes trump's actions different?
Trump has abused the White House for personal gain worse than any other president with the Clinton's solidly in second place. Maybe it is time to draw the line and say enough is enough, but really it is an arbitrary line. We should have drawn the line at the Clinton's then the removal of Trump would have been clearly justifiable. Now it is just reeks of partisan politics.
Hunter's dealing with China and Ukraine violates ethics and should not be allowed. What Joe did was more bad optics than unethical or illegal. He was put in a compromised position by his son's activities. He appears he acted in the interest of our country, but you never know because there was a clesr conflict of interest. People who say there wasn't, really don't understand what it means.
The obstruction article is secondary and very weak. Trump is exercising his rights to challenge the subpoenas in court. If he loses and then refuses, then it is obstruction. But as of now, the issue is legally unresolved.
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Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
I don't think the line is arbitrary. It's not just the corruption for personal benefit, it's the foreign election interference.
The Mueller report clearly stated that the trump campaign knew they were receiving foreign assistance and welcomed it. Trump said in an interview that he'd take assistance from a foreign government again.
If you believe that he then used hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to pressure another foreign government to help him win the next election, and you don't remove him for it, then you're explicitly saying that that's legal for the president to do. It means that all future elections will be decided by any foreign influence that the candidates can get, including illegal hacking into the d.n.c
Think about the election process when Europe wants a pro NATO candidate, Russia wants a useful idiot, China wants a candidate who will give them favorable trade terms and support what they're doing in Hong Kong, and the candidates literally talk directly to those countries during the presidential debates.
"Russia, if you're listening" would have been disqualifying in any other era in American politics. But trump didn't back down from it at all - he got investigated and said he was totally exonerated by the Mueller report, said he'd take "oppo research" from another country, stood on the white house lawn and asked Ukraine and China to investigate the bidens.
I can understand someone not believing that, and i started this thread to give people a chance to explain it from their perspective. But I don't think I've heard your perspective - you really think that he engaged other countries for election interference and should be allowed to continue to do it in another election?
Hillary hiring a foreign spy to dig up dirt on Trump is also foreign interference. It is all arbitrary and political. I wish we had good choices, but we don't.
bostonfred
Footballguy
If Russia puts candidate trump in office in his first term he might put policies in place that benefit Russia. For example, he might withhold aid from Ukraine while Russia is fighting a war against them.
If president trump withholds hundreds of millions of dollars in aid from an ally to get things of value to himself
If Hillary hires a former British spy to investigate something on her behalf, there may be an ethics violation there too, but there's no power by the UK over her. She didn't abuse the power of the u.s. government to make another country provide something of value to herself.
I'm not especially fond of Hillary and I don't plan to defend her further in this thread, but please be honest - these are critically different things.
Pickle Rody
IBL Representative
Ah, so my extremely accurate post claiming "DJT supporters cannot offer any explanations for his actions because there are none" gets hidden. Nice.
I'm willing to lurk but, I'll bet I'm proven correct as this thread runs its course. It is noble of @bostonfred to ask though. I hope he gets at least one honest reply to his actual question.....it would be an interesting read.
Anyway, back to lurking....
Sabertooth
Footballguy
No, he specifically did not ask about corruption. Did you not read the post you quoted?
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