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Turning a redraft league into a keeper (1 Viewer)

Gatorman

Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
I commish a long time redraft league where owner turnover is low and we may look for a replacement owner once every 3 or 4 years. A couple of owners have asked about turning the league into a keeper league (keep 2 players) to commence the 2013 season.

I have never been in or commished a keeper league so I need some guidance as to how to proceed. We will likely vote on this before the end of the 2012 season so that is why I am asking now.

Obviously, there are a million ways to do this. My feeling is I would like owners to be able to keep almost anyone, but I need the penalty to be sliding from those drafted at the top of the draft vs those taken lower.

I assume that some of the draft randomization would need to skew towards the weaker teams in the league rather than simple random draft order.

Finally, there is a lot I have no idea about so any advice is helpful.

Thanks.

 
We went through this last year, making this year's draft our first keeper draft.

We decided to also switch to an auction draft at the same time. I thought the double-change was a good one, since it gives everyone a shot at every player, so you don't miss out on a keeper due to luck, and we don't have to worry about draft order randomization. But perhaps you guys don't want to make that change--it did make the draft a lot longer.

We settled on a $200 budget, with 2 keepers per year, and $5 inflation on each keeper per year. In other words, if you drafted Luck at $8 this year, it will cost you $13 dollars to keep him next year. We picked those number to make it pretty easy to keep a player if you want. If you drafted Foster at $50 this year and want to keep him at $55 next year, it's not going to kill your team. We figured limiting each team to only 2 keepers would ensure enough good players are in the draft each year.

For a snake draft, maybe one round inflation per year (i.e. if you drafted Luck in the 8th, you lose a 7th round pick to keep him next year, and a 6th rounder the year after that) would have a similar balance. The only real difference is this would make it impossible to keep 1st round picks. So perhaps, allowing teams to keep a player at the same round for one year and then applying inflation (i.e. if you drafted Luck in the 8th, you lose an 8th round pick to keep him next year, and a 7th rounder the year after that, etc.) would be closer to the balance we were looking for. But that's a bit more confusing, and there's something to be said for simple rules.

 
Why not wait til next year? People draft a lot different in the first year of a keeper than in a redraft..

 
Why not wait til next year? People draft a lot different in the first year of a keeper than in a redraft..
Yes, it would be unfair to start a keeper league with current players. Turn it into a keeper league with next years draft starting it. People definitely draft differently in a keeper league, but the biggest thing in my opinion is people trade differently.
 
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Why not wait til next year? People draft a lot different in the first year of a keeper than in a redraft..
Yes, it would be unfair to start a keeper league with current players. Turn it into a keeper league with next years draft starting it. People definitely draft differently in a keeper league, but the biggest thing in my opinion is people trade differently.
What they said. Decide rules. Then redraft from scratch before option to keep.
 
Why not wait til next year? People draft a lot different in the first year of a keeper than in a redraft..
Yes, it would be unfair to start a keeper league with current players. Turn it into a keeper league with next years draft starting it. People definitely draft differently in a keeper league, but the biggest thing in my opinion is people trade differently.
What they said. Decide rules. Then redraft from scratch before option to keep.
Pretty sure that's what he meant. They just want to vote on the change now while everyone is actively following the league. We debated switching to a keeper during the season last year, but we didn't get around to actually setting the rules until the summer. FWIW, everyone participated about as much then as they normally would during the season (i.e. the more active owners were more involved in the debate, and the less active owners said do whatever). So, getting a vote in during the season probably isn't that big a deal.I remembered a few more things:1) We used google docs to set up the league constitution/rules. Very useful.2) The most contentious point was how future scoring system or position changes would be resolved. We had been using a custom QB scoring system and no flex. This made the value of players a little different than on most draft kits, and since we're all having kids now, we wanted to go with something easier. In terms of scoring, we decided to change to standard Yahoo settings, but then there was the question of what we would do if Yahoo ever changed their scoring. Eventually we agreed that we would just follow Yahoo, since it probably wouldn't ever make a huge difference in keeper value. With regards to positions, we decided to stick with our current set up, rather than follow some site's default settings.
 
Why not wait til next year? People draft a lot different in the first year of a keeper than in a redraft..
Yes, it would be unfair to start a keeper league with current players. Turn it into a keeper league with next years draft starting it. People definitely draft differently in a keeper league, but the biggest thing in my opinion is people trade differently.
What they said. Decide rules. Then redraft from scratch before option to keep.
Pretty sure that's what he meant.
It is. All changes go into effect after the draft next year. Auction is likely out of the question bc everyone is spread out and I know at least 4 owners not interested.
 
For a snake draft, maybe one round inflation per year (i.e. if you drafted Luck in the 8th, you lose a 7th round pick to keep him next year, and a 6th rounder the year after that) would have a similar balance. The only real difference is this would make it impossible to keep 1st round picks. So perhaps, allowing teams to keep a player at the same round for one year and then applying inflation (i.e. if you drafted Luck in the 8th, you lose an 8th round pick to keep him next year, and a 7th rounder the year after that, etc.) would be closer to the balance we were looking for. But that's a bit more confusing, and there's something to be said for simple rules.
I wish my league wanted to try an auction draft, but they seem pretty resistant. However, your snake draft keeper league idea is what my league is going for. Though we are going for increases of two rounds per year. Meaning, if you draft Luck in the 8th round, you'd have to surrender a 6th round pick to keep him. To me, this would allow you not to even put a number on the amount of keepers kept per team. Like you point out though, I'm having some difficulty in trying to lay down an equitable rule for keeping (or not being able to keep) a 1st or 2nd round pick. The second idea of waiting one year and then applying inflation is a very attractive one.
 
Re: changing scoring once underway... such changes (assuming they are league's doing and not, say, always following Yahoo) should require a year's advance notice, or a unanimous vote.

 
If I was doing a snake-draft with 2 keepers, I think I would do it as...

* Keep any 2.

* For every year they're kept, they get a keeper value of the # of years you've had them. So the first year you keep them, they have a value of 1. Second year, 2. So on and so forth.

* At the draft, you have to give up a draft pick of: (Round You Gave Up Last Year for the Player - Player's Keeper Value)

* You can never keep anyone who would force you to give a Round 0 pick.

* If you have to give up 2 picks in the same round, you have to give up the pick in that round and the round before it.

So if you decided to keep your 3rd-round draft choice (Player A) and your 17th-round draft choice (Player B)....

* Year 1. You have to give up your 2nd-round pick for Player A (3rd round pick - 1 year kept). You have to give up your 16th-round draft choice for Player B (17th round pick - 1 year kept).

* Year 2. You couldn't keep Player A. (Last year's draft choice would be 2nd-round pick - 2 years kept). You have to give up your 14th-round draft choice for Player B. (16th-round pick forfeited last year - 2 years kept). You would have to pick a Player C to keep.

Basically, it ensures that all the 1st-round picks go back into the pool. It puts a limit of 2-3 years on high draft picks so they eventually go back into the pool. And it rewards someone for drafting someone very late (say when they're an unhyped rookie) while still having an increasing keeper price so that within 4-5 years they're also back into the pool. And you want something that increases and isn't linear (say 1 round or 2 rounds every year) otherwise someone drafts say RGIII or Morris this year in the 18th round and has them as a cheap, cheap, cheap keeper for the rest of their career.

ETA: If you wanted to allow people to keep their 1st round draft picks, you could start the Keeper Value at 0 instead of 1 and then go up from there.

 
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There are a couple of different common ways for keeper compensation. Each has different impacts, and there is no "right" answer but it comes down to what you prefer.

One method is Every team keeps X players, and they essentially don't cost draft picks. If such a league keeps 2 players, then essentially the draft starts in the third round. You can still call it the 1st, but the point is, every team has an identical number of picks, it's as if everyone had to spend their first 2 picks on their first 2 players. And every team should keep 2 players since not keeping a player doesn't give you any extra pick to use. Compared to other methods, this method helps the most the teams with the best studs. If someone has two top 5 players and another team's best two players are the equivalent of 5th round players, then you could equate it to the latter team having to use his first 2 picks on 5th round players while the better team got to use his first two picks on two elite players. So bad teams may be forced to use what would have been early picks on players not worth that slot, compared to redraft. There tend to be very few studs available for teams with the early picks when the draft does start. Further, teams with multiple elite players are likely to come out even further ahead as they can trade them to teams who don't have as good of keepers, and who don't pick at the top of the beginning round of the draft where they could take that player with their own pick. Unless the league institutes some additional rule to limit how many times a player can be kept, the player could be kept throughout his career.

Another method is some form of Keep them at a round they were drafted or kept the year before, possibly minus some adjustment. Free agents either can't be kept, or are given some set round number. The "adjustment" might be, keep them at one round earlier than where they were drafted, and you can't keep someone with a round less than 1. This method results in keepers being primarily break out players or those who were undervalued, since they present the best value. It means that many top picks will still be available in the draft, and top picks eventually recycle. However, a downside is it can created the biggest disparity between the cost of keeping the player and his value. Depending on league parameters and how early in preseason drafts happened, Arian Foster, Clinton Portis, and Priest Holmes are examples of late picks who ended up being consistently elite players. In the previous system, Foster would essentially cost a 1st or 2nd in a keep 2 league. In a league he is kept at Previous Round minus 1, he might have been kept in the 6th round and 5th rounds the last 2 years, which obviously makes him much more valuable than in the previous setup. Some teams might not even have a player worth the draft pick they'd need to give up. Good teams aren't as likely to be able to trade keeper worthy players for draft picks as the last setup, and probably get less (later round picks). If leagues do lower the round at which the player must be kept, then players cannot be kept throughout a long career, but some could still be keeper worthy through their effective career.

The final common method is You can keep X players, and doing so costs your earliest X picks. If not kept, you use those picks normally. In this system, if you can keep up to 4 players, they would cost your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks and your first selection would be in the 5th round. If another team only kept 2, they would cost their 1st and 2nd round pick, and then the team would draft available players with their 3rd and 4th round picks. A team whose roster has few or no players better than those thrown back could keep 0 and select 4 players who weren't kept before the team who kept 4 would draft. This system tends to be somewhere in the middle of the other two in most aspects. Players tend to be kept for picks closer to their actual value than the previous 2 systems. Only players worthy of the first X rounds will get kept (assuming your owners have a modicum of sense), as otherwise they could throw that player back and there would have to be a better available who another team had to cut. In addition, such a team would get an earlier crack at rookies which can make up for not having keeper worthy players. Good teams are helped... if you keep 2 you could still keep Foster and Rice with 1st and 2nd round picks... but bad teams have a way of using a pick before the round in which everyone again has picks. Bad teams may choose to not keep anyone just in order to get first shot at high profile rookies like an Adrian Peterson, Trent Richards, Calvin Johnson, Andrew Luck or RG3. Actually even good teams may throw all their players back to do this if they really think someone will be special. Without some additional method of limiting how many times a player can be kept, a player could be kept throughout their career, so long as they continue to be worth an early selection. While teams may trade for keeper worthy players not being kept, the price paid should be less than the first system since the team acquiring the player can still get the player by just not keeping players, and then is only competing against other teams who didn't keep the same number of players. Such trades are probably for more than trades in the 2nd system, since such trades in the second system are more likely for middle round players being kept with a late pick, not for earlier round quality players, so that would limit what is given up to late picks.

Also worth mentioning, when my own leagues both went keeper many years ago, we debated whether we should put a limit on how many years in a row a player could be kept. I went back for about 5 years and posted who the top 10 fantasy QBs, RBs, and WRs were each year. RBs there is an extreme amount of turnover. It's a rare RB who stays in the top 5 for a long time, and generally half of the top 10 RBs turn over each year. Even amongst QBs, the amount of turnover is more than you might expect. I'd suggest any leagues considering this do similar and look and see just how much turnover there is and thus how much players will get thrown back into the draftable pool naturally before deciding if such a rule is needed. We did not adopt such a rule, and I really can't think of a time in the last 10 years now I've wished we had it. Even the top players like an Edge, Faulk, Priest, Tomlinson, Peterson, etc, get traded after a few years as teams are looking to get max value for them before they start dropping off. That, or they drop off in performance, or get injured. I personally don't think such rules are needed, and that's my opinion after watching leagues that keep 4 players, where it would be more pronounced if being able to keep a player unlimited was going to be a problem. I can say honestly I've always had amongst the best set of keepers year after year, but that's only happened because I'm actively acquiring new players. Most years at least 2 of my 4 keepers change, and while I've had stud RBs pretty consistently during that time, their identity has continually changed.

Ok, so now having attempted an objective discussion of the three main ways of doing keepers... I'll add my personal preference. I much prefer the third system. I think giving teams the option of first choice from non-drafted players is a great way of giving smart owners a chance to turn around a bad team. (While I suppose bad owners may blindly keep players who aren't worth it and get their just desserts.) I don't like forcing teams to use picks on players who aren't worth it, which the first system does. And I don't like the second system's outcome of some teams having significant players at fantastic values while others not only don't have anything comparable, but get no additional advantage to offset it. As an example, in the latter system I'd have had Arian Foster keepable with 9th and 8th round picks these last 2 years. That's just way too big an advantage considering I'd still have my 1st, 2nd, etc round picks to use on players same as teams who don't have an obscenely cheap Foster.

I also like the third system for the ability to cut bait on a bad team when you see some rookies coming out you like. Despite having had good keeper options, I threw my roster back into the undrafted pool so I could use my earliest picks on Adrian Peterson his rookie year. I like this particular element of strategy that the third system adds, which there really is nothing comparable in the other two.

They all can work, and some aspects of the other systems may appeal to a group more. I've done all three and think the actual pluses and minuses make the third the better system by a fair margin, but any of them will work for a league.

 
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Greg, I don't have much to offer outside of writing that you may have just convinced me. I was pretty set on the 2nd method that you list, for the league I run. However, the 3rd method, does seem more equitable to bad teams. Granted, while you are admittedly partial to this 3rd method, you described the benefits of it well in a very coherent way. Thank you for that as you definitely made me think about what might be best.

 
Rather than start a new thread, I'm bumping this one because our league is facing the same change as the TC's. Greg, your third choice of how keepers work seems the most interesting to me. Now that the season is over, what were the results of your league? Who won? What players did they keep going into the draft? What kind of players were thrown back into the pool?My only concern is that there were two or so teams that drafted very poorly. Granted, this is their own fault, but at least with a redraft formula, those owners always come in with a clean slate and an even shot next year. Whereas if a few teams have relatively few studs, but a handful have a ton of studs, then those poor teams seem like they're doomed, which I can see guys just dropping out altogether. Have you witnessed any long term issues such as this?Likewise, if anyone else has any suggestions, I'm all ears. Thanks!

 
My only concern is that there were two or so teams that drafted very poorly. Granted, this is their own fault, but at least with a redraft formula, those owners always come in with a clean slate and an even shot next year. Whereas if a few teams have relatively few studs, but a handful have a ton of studs, then those poor teams seem like they're doomed, which I can see guys just dropping out altogether. Have you witnessed any long term issues such as this?
Actually, that is my biggest fear with this method. The poorer teams won't have studs that are worth that much. That makes me have second thoughts and go back to the idea of protecting players in the round they were drafted. That would do two things: allow studs like Aaron Rodgers, etc. be available in the draft for poor teams and allow those poor teams to protect a rising star or two that they may have. This may just come down to subjectivity as well.
 
My only concern is that there were two or so teams that drafted very poorly. Granted, this is their own fault, but at least with a redraft formula, those owners always come in with a clean slate and an even shot next year. Whereas if a few teams have relatively few studs, but a handful have a ton of studs, then those poor teams seem like they're doomed, which I can see guys just dropping out altogether. Have you witnessed any long term issues such as this?
Actually, that is my biggest fear with this method. The poorer teams won't have studs that are worth that much. That makes me have second thoughts and go back to the idea of protecting players in the round they were drafted. That would do two things: allow studs like Aaron Rodgers, etc. be available in the draft for poor teams and allow those poor teams to protect a rising star or two that they may have. This may just come down to subjectivity as well.
A couple of points to add.1. I know it's been said before in this thread, but whatever choice you make really should go into effect at the start of next season (after the draft). It's very difficult to apply keeper rules to existing redraft rosters without the end result being (or at least seeming) unfair. Even in situations like Greg's option 3 - where you wouldn't think it would have an influence since you have to give up a top pick the following year to keep someone regardless of where you drafted him - a rule like that probably would have been enough for me to pick Calvin Johnson over a Brees or DMF at the 1.7 spot last year, because the potential for multiple years of first-round production is that much higher.

2. As a buffer against poor-drafting teams dropping out, in another recent thread I had suggested some sort of "point system", where each team gets a certain number of points based on their prior-year record (e.g. 10 points per loss), and the points can be used in some combination to either keep players or to "buy down" the draft pick you have to give up to keep them. For example, you could set the cost of a keeper at 20 points, which costs you a pick 3 rounds ahead of the prior year's draft, and the cost to buy down a round is 5 points - so if I went 10-3 and took Doug Martin in the 5th round, I could use my 30 points to keep him and give up a 4th round pick instead of a 2nd-rounder. But someone who went 3-10 would get 100 points, so he could keep Martin, give up his 4th-rounder, and still have 70 points left over to keep other players and/or reduce the penalties for doing so.

(Disclaimer: I've never run, or even participated in, a league that used anything like this. I have no idea if it will work and especially whether the values above are anywhere close to what they should be. As far as I know it's a completely theoretical construct. But it seems like it should work well.) :shrug:

 
We went through this last year, making this year's draft our first keeper draft.We decided to also switch to an auction draft at the same time. I thought the double-change was a good one, since it gives everyone a shot at every player, so you don't miss out on a keeper due to luck, and we don't have to worry about draft order randomization. But perhaps you guys don't want to make that change--it did make the draft a lot longer.We settled on a $200 budget, with 2 keepers per year, and $5 inflation on each keeper per year. In other words, if you drafted Luck at $8 this year, it will cost you $13 dollars to keep him next year. We picked those number to make it pretty easy to keep a player if you want. If you drafted Foster at $50 this year and want to keep him at $55 next year, it's not going to kill your team. We figured limiting each team to only 2 keepers would ensure enough good players are in the draft each year.
For an auction/keeper league, how would you handle it if a Team wanted to keep a free agent player they got off waivers? We actually do a round of blind bidding for waivers as well as subsequent first come first serve until kickoff. So perhaps just utilize what the winning blind bid for that player was for their Keeper $ amount would work.Just wondering how the waiver/free agent component would work with an auction/keeper setup...
 
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Rather than start a new thread, I'm bumping this one because our league is facing the same change as the TC's. Greg, your third choice of how keepers work seems the most interesting to me. Now that the season is over, what were the results of your league? Who won? What players did they keep going into the draft? What kind of players were thrown back into the pool?My only concern is that there were two or so teams that drafted very poorly. Granted, this is their own fault, but at least with a redraft formula, those owners always come in with a clean slate and an even shot next year. Whereas if a few teams have relatively few studs, but a handful have a ton of studs, then those poor teams seem like they're doomed, which I can see guys just dropping out altogether. Have you witnessed any long term issues such as this?Likewise, if anyone else has any suggestions, I'm all ears. Thanks!
I've had two leagues use the 3rd system, both with keeping 4 players. One of them I was in for about 4-5 years with that system until I dropped out to free up more time to commish a new dynasty league. The other league we've used the system since 2005 and it's still going strong.I don't know that we've had owners drop out because of the keeper system. We've had guys drop out over the years (league has been around since 2000), but due to lack of time as they had kids, or things were happening with their jobs where they didn't have time to keep up.I suppose what I find is that teams who draft well excel in any format. Over the long haul, having a keeper format will indeed help a better owner more than it will a worse owner. Most any rule that injects a requirement for talent evaluation and strategic thinking will. My own personal preference is that giving owners the ability to make moves in advance of when they help their team is worth having (like if you draft an Andrew Luck and plan to keep him for now even if he isn't worth the pick compensation you have to give, figuring he will be in the near future).I've probably had the best overall set of keepers in the league, though not every year did I have the best group. I never had the same group of 4 keepers. About half the years I only kept 3 players. And all four players I kept in 2008 were not on my team in 2007... I blew up my team that year to get Adrian Peterson as a rookie.The one issue I did see, and let me add this is a "regular league" of college buddies, not a league of 12 people who spend their offseason on a football message board, was that it took people who traded for a better keeper awhile to figure out what was appropriate draft pick compensation. We had a few trades in the early years between the two leagues where teams would give up as high as 5th round picks for a better keeper... and when you look at it as, "you could have <player you traded for>, or <player you'd have picked with your 5th> plus <player you'd have picked with your 3rd you used keeping the new player>", it was really lopsided that the trades weren't good.We don't have vetoes, but after some talk with other owners (including those making out like bandits) that it would be for the best, I sent an email discussing the leverage of such trades... that the owner who has to give up the player loses him without compensation if he doesn't trade him... and then discussed how to evaluate a trade by filling in the names of players who you'd have picked with the traded pick and pick used to keep the player. Once I did that, I thought the trades went much better. We might see anywhere from 7th round picks to 12th round picks traded now if potential keepers swap teams, now that teams take into account they also have to spend that pick to actually keep the guy.Those lopsided trades were the only thing that I felt was unbalancing about the whole setup. While there are teams who have consistently had great keepers, myself included, we've had to continually find the next stud before he broke out to keep it going. I've gone from Priest, to LJ and Westbrook, to Peterson, to Peterson and Deangelo, to Peterson and Foster which are my best 2 keepers at present. Each step of the way there I had to out draft everyone else to get the new players moving into my keeper slots. While a Peterson can indeed stay on a team throughout his career, what we've seen with Tomlinson was that such a player tends to change hands a few times as teams are looking to bail out before he drops off. I've already strongly considered trading Peterson for that reason, though luckily his trade value was so low after the injury I kept him again for this last year. I'm also considering moving Foster too though haven't done anything there yet.
 
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We went through this last year, making this year's draft our first keeper draft.We decided to also switch to an auction draft at the same time. I thought the double-change was a good one, since it gives everyone a shot at every player, so you don't miss out on a keeper due to luck, and we don't have to worry about draft order randomization. But perhaps you guys don't want to make that change--it did make the draft a lot longer.We settled on a $200 budget, with 2 keepers per year, and $5 inflation on each keeper per year. In other words, if you drafted Luck at $8 this year, it will cost you $13 dollars to keep him next year. We picked those number to make it pretty easy to keep a player if you want. If you drafted Foster at $50 this year and want to keep him at $55 next year, it's not going to kill your team. We figured limiting each team to only 2 keepers would ensure enough good players are in the draft each year.
For an auction/keeper league, how would you handle it if a Team wanted to keep a free agent player they got off waivers? We actually do a round of blind bidding for waivers as well as subsequent first come first serve until kickoff. So perhaps just utilize what the winning blind bid for that player was for their Keeper $ amount would work.Just wondering how the waiver/free agent component would work with an auction/keeper setup...
My dynasty league which has player contracts, we do it with a hard cap that is in effect all year, so your blind bidding budget is how much money you are under the cap (including the salary of a player you choose to cut in picking up the new player). We have 2 BB sessions in a week, and then FCFS from Saturday noon through MNF, where the player is assigned the minimum $1 salary if taken.We don't have the "player salaries go up $X or X% each year", but instead have them be 3 year contracts after which they are free agents. Or you can give them an extra 1 or 2 year contract extension, but to do so requires a raise which goes into effect before year 3 and the extra years. Then you also have a franchise and 2 transition tags you can use to retain players, but again at an average of top salaries and/or a raise... and other teams can still bid them up higher and you have the option of taking rookie draft picks if you let them go, or can match and retain them.
 
We don't have vetoes, but after some talk with other owners (including those making out like bandits) that it would be for the best, I sent an email discussing the leverage of such trades... that the owner who has to give up the player loses him without compensation if he doesn't trade him... and then discussed how to evaluate a trade by filling in the names of players who you'd have picked with the traded pick and pick used to keep the player. Once I did that, I thought the trades went much better. We might see anywhere from 7th round picks to 12th round picks traded now if potential keepers swap teams, now that teams take into account they also have to spend that pick to actually keep the guy.
Greg, just to make certain for my own brain, when you say "they also have to spend that pick to actually keep the guy", you're speaking about the fact that they have to give up one of their first four round picks to keep that player that they traded for? Not that they have to spend a pick where the guy was drafted, right?
 
We don't have vetoes, but after some talk with other owners (including those making out like bandits) that it would be for the best, I sent an email discussing the leverage of such trades... that the owner who has to give up the player loses him without compensation if he doesn't trade him... and then discussed how to evaluate a trade by filling in the names of players who you'd have picked with the traded pick and pick used to keep the player. Once I did that, I thought the trades went much better. We might see anywhere from 7th round picks to 12th round picks traded now if potential keepers swap teams, now that teams take into account they also have to spend that pick to actually keep the guy.
Greg, just to make certain for my own brain, when you say "they also have to spend that pick to actually keep the guy", you're speaking about the fact that they have to give up one of their first four round picks to keep that player that they traded for? Not that they have to spend a pick where the guy was drafted, right?
Yes, talking about the one of their first 4 picks they have to give up to keep him, rather than selecting a player from the undrafted pool.So for example, let's say you have 2 players worth keeping. You can trade for a third player, and they want a 5th round pick. You have to give up the 5th, plus you need to spend your 3rd actually keeping the guy. If you don't make the trade, you would spend your 3rd to get some non-kept player, plus your 5th drafted normally. So you would need to ask yourself, is the player I'm getting worth... and plug in the names of players available at your 3rd and your 5th.By the way, one nice strategy thing about this system, is you can actually predict a worst case of who will be there at your draft pick. For example, I go through every team in my league and I decide who they SHOULD keep, based on my beliefs about the players. I list all the players who should be kept, assign them to draft picks, then I go through the players left available and decide whose draft picks ahead of mine should be used on what players. So then when I get to my own picks, I know that Player X is the absolute worse case that should be available to me. And if anyone deviates from what I just came up with, that would free up a better player than Player X. So now I know, if my intended keeper for that pick is worse than Player X, I should not keep the player and should instead plan to select someone from the draft.I have friends who use this same system in other leagues that I'm not in (their commishes played in my leagues and copied the system). They ask me every year for help with their keepers, knowing I know the system and am a fantasy :nerd: . And I walk them through that process of how to put exact names (at least based on my projections for players) of who will be there at their picks, and then decide if that is better than their keeper possibilities.Going back to what was asked earlier though, your average FF owner is not going to think through all of that, so yes, a good owner is going to find advantages in the system because it adds a chance for strategic or critical thinking. People on this board hopefully will think through it all, but our interest level in FF is far above average.
 
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Really appreciate the quick reply (and replies) on this, Greg. That really helped. And thinking hard about the owners in the league that I run, I'm pretty dead set that this idea (keep up to any 4 players and giving up picks 1-4) is likely the best one. Very easy to follow, and it gives those who decide not to protect four players another option. Thank you again.

 
Really appreciate the quick reply (and replies) on this, Greg. That really helped. And thinking hard about the owners in the league that I run, I'm pretty dead set that this idea (keep up to any 4 players and giving up picks 1-4) is likely the best one. Very easy to follow, and it gives those who decide not to protect four players another option. Thank you again.
You're welcome, hope you like it as much as I have.
 
My dynasty league which has player contracts, we do it with a hard cap that is in effect all year, so your blind bidding budget is how much money you are under the cap (including the salary of a player you choose to cut in picking up the new player). We have 2 BB sessions in a week, and then FCFS from Saturday noon through MNF, where the player is assigned the minimum $1 salary if taken.We don't have the "player salaries go up $X or X% each year", but instead have them be 3 year contracts after which they are free agents. Or you can give them an extra 1 or 2 year contract extension, but to do so requires a raise which goes into effect before year 3 and the extra years. Then you also have a franchise and 2 transition tags you can use to retain players, but again at an average of top salaries and/or a raise... and other teams can still bid them up higher and you have the option of taking rookie draft picks if you let them go, or can match and retain them.
Can you PM me your rules about pay raises, (unless it's easy to put here)...would love to see how to manage the $ side. Have a Contract-Years only league, and never instituted the $ Cap part.
 
'Black said:
'Greg Russell said:
My dynasty league which has player contracts, we do it with a hard cap that is in effect all year, so your blind bidding budget is how much money you are under the cap (including the salary of a player you choose to cut in picking up the new player). We have 2 BB sessions in a week, and then FCFS from Saturday noon through MNF, where the player is assigned the minimum $1 salary if taken.We don't have the "player salaries go up $X or X% each year", but instead have them be 3 year contracts after which they are free agents. Or you can give them an extra 1 or 2 year contract extension, but to do so requires a raise which goes into effect before year 3 and the extra years. Then you also have a franchise and 2 transition tags you can use to retain players, but again at an average of top salaries and/or a raise... and other teams can still bid them up higher and you have the option of taking rookie draft picks if you let them go, or can match and retain them.
Can you PM me your rules about pay raises, (unless it's easy to put here)...would love to see how to manage the $ side. Have a Contract-Years only league, and never instituted the $ Cap part.
Hard salary cap in effect during regular season. We suspend cap and roster limit in offseason until right before vet auction, so we can do rookie draft and not make people decide who to cut to make room until it's closer to the season starting. Any time a player is acquired from waivers or draft he starts a new 3 year contract. Vet auction and blind bidding it's winning bid. FCFS it's minimum salary of $1. Trades, player retains the same contract. We don't allow trading of cap dollars.Rookie draft salary set based on round and position, and is an average of the bottom half of starters at the position (sorted by price) as of end of previous season. So we start 2 RBs and 12 teams = 24 RBs. So I sort RBs by salary and the average salaries of RBs 13-24 is the price of a 1st round rookie. 2nd round is 2/3 that price. 3rd round is 1/3 that price. 4th round and beyond is $1.No cap penalty for cutting a player.Players have a 3 year contract initially. In the offseason between years 2 and 3 of his contract, you can give him a contract extension, but it includes an immediate raise for years 3 through the extended years. You can extend 1 or 2 years. 1 year is greater of 20%/$5 raise. 2 year extension is greater of 40%/$10 raise. (Example later) At the end of a contract, whether 3 year, or if you extended, the player will go back into an auction. If you don't want to Tag him then he goes into the vet auction right before the season starts. If you want to you can Franchise or Transition Tag the player, which requires a raise, and he's still auctioned, but if you choose not to match winning bid you can get draft pick compensation for letting him go. Franchise Tag you get two 1st round rookie picks, Transition you get a single 2nd. Teams must have their own picks or better in those rounds to be able to bid on a Tagged player. Franchise Tag the player gets a starting bid of the greater of: average of top 5 at his position or a 20% raise. Transition is average of top 10 or a 10% raise. We hold the Tagged player auction separately, first thing in offseason actually. The team who tagged the player doesn't participate, he gets option at end to match the winning bid and keep him, or take the draft picks. I'd say that 80-90% of the time, no one bids on the player, or only bids him up to a level the original team chooses to keep him. In about 6 years we've maybe had teams give up compensation about a half dozen times.So example. You acquire Brady in 2011 for $60. He plays 2011 (year 1) at $60. He plays 2012 (year 2) at $60. In the following offseason you can decide to extend him or not. So your choices are:1. Let him play at $60 in 2013 and then become a free agent and go into vet auction (where you could reacquire him same as any other team).2. Let him play at $60 in 2013 and then Tag him. Franchise Tag he'd get a 20% raise ($60+$12 = $72), or average of top 5 QBs if higher. Either you get him at $72 if no one bids him up, or if someone bids him up to say, $80, you can let him go and get two 1st round picks, or can keep him at $80.3. Extend him 1 year. He gets a 20% raise, so $72, and plays at that price in 2013 (year 3) and 2014 (extended year 4).4. Extend him 2 years. He gets a 40% raise, so $84, and plays at that price in 2013 (year 3) and 2014 (extended year 4) and 2015 (extended year 5).That's pretty much it. Oh, we do have a "Can't Cut" clause that is given to a player in the year he is given an Extension (year 3) or to the first year of a Tagged player if he's retained by original team. Those players can be traded, but never cut by any team in that year. There is also a limit on the tags. You don't get a new Tag every year. The Tag stays on the player through his 3 year contract (but not any extension). If you want to Franchise Tag someone else, before those 3 years are up, you'd have to cut or trade the player. If you do, you cannot reacquire the formerly tagged player during that 3 years unless your Tag is free to go back on him.Otherwise, you can cut a player with no cap penalty, which is good since you have a hard cap that you're using your room under for blind bidding. Generally you just cut worse players to free up money for your waivers. It is possible to cut a player, then pick him back up in the next blind bidding waiver session at a lower salary, but of course you may not win the bidding.Note you can get some real bargains. Foster I picked up for $1 before he broke out, he played at that price for 2 years, and now I've extended him so years 3-5 he'll play for $11. After that I'll have to Tag him to retain him, or get a pick for him.It does create a new element to trading. You have to balance salaries sometimes so players fit under each other's caps. And also, you may see a well or over-priced stud traded for a lesser player who is a good value. Or just trading because you don't have cap room. Like I traded Fitzgerald for Dalton straight up. Uneven trade just on player scoring, but even when you consider how much cap room it frees and that Dalton is very cheap on his rookie contract, while Fitz is well-priced and has to be tagged to be retained longer.Oh, and our average player salary is $10. We have a huge starting lineup and roster... 45-55 players and $500 cap limit. So I figure 50 spots, $500 on average, so $10 a player. If you have a different amount of cash per player, you might need to walk through some example players and see if contract terms need tweaking.
 
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Our league has a unique system that we implemented a couple of years ago and every owner loves it. A little background- 10 team IDP league with rosters of 44. We started off using the format of keep as many players as you wish, but for each player kept, you would lose a round in the draft. So if you kept 20 players- you would begin drafting at round 21. The problem with this format was that every player of decent value was kept and it made the draft boring and tedious. As one owner put it, "Draft day should be like Christmas morning." So we switched to a Keep-3 format. However, half the teams hated keeping just a few players. So we switched again- to a keep 14 format. But again, we ran into the problem of almost all of the impact players were kept, making the draft boring and also leaving teams that may have had a couple of bad luck years having a difficult time being competitive.So, we held an owners meeting again. This time, I asked the owners to come up with parameters and I would do my best to find a way to work within them. This is what I got:1- No salary caps, too complicated to keep up with. Must be easy to execute.2- Ability to keep a variable amount of players, but still have a good number of impact players available in the draft.3- Ability for a team to "re-build" in a single year or two.The first thing that came to mind was tiers. When most of us prepared for a draft, we always tiered off players. What if I tiered off the rosters at the end of the year and put limits on those tiers? I decided to divide players into five tiers. Teams could keep the following:Tier 1- One player onlyTier 2- Two playersTier 3- Three playersTier 4- UnlimitedTier 5- UnlimitedThe big question from there was how do you determine what players were in what tier? I decided on using a player's average points per game for determining value. Tier 1 became the players that were in the top 15%. From there, each tier was divided in 10 percent increments. For example, assuming the top PPG was 50, players finishing at 42.5 PPG and above were in tier 1. Tier 2 consisted of players that finished between 37.5 and 42.5 PPG and so on. Tier 5 would be any player that scored below 27.5 PPG.Now, there has to be a cost to keeping players. For our system, there are actually two costs. The first one is money. At the beginning of the season, each team is given $2200 "Blind-Bid" money. Each tier has a dollar cost attached to it. The money spent on keepers is deducted from the $2200 and the remainder is used for in-season blind-bid waivers. Therefore, if you keep a bunch of players, you will have less to bid with during the season.The second cost is the draft itself. Each tier costs certain rounds in the draft:Tier 1- Your first round draft pickTier 2- Rounds five and sixTier 3- Rounds 10-12Tier 4- Rounds beginning at 20Tier 5- Rounds beginning at 30If you choose not to keep a tier 1 player and every other team does, you will automatically get the first pick in the draft. Same principle for all of the tiers.The advantages are:1- Teams still have a choice of keeping a few or many players.2- Most of the top players are thrown back into the draft, keeping the excitement up.3- Many of the lower tier players are kept, shortening the draft of the more tedious rounds.4- Teams can re-build quickly if they had a bad year the previous year.5- Makes it extremely easy to increase the number of teams if we wish to. In previous years, if we added teams, we would hold a complete re-draft so the new teams did not have to wait several years before they accumulated enough top-level players to be competitive. Sorry for the long post, but I did want to share.

 

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