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Tush Push - Do the rules apply for this play or not? Doesn't seem like it (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter trader jake
- Start date
BlackCrowes
Footballguy
didnt watch the game. how do they miss that? isn't that exactly where the guys on the line are looking?They don't need to review it. They just need to call it like any other play
A false start is a false start.
I'm quite sure the media will be asking about it, and the refs will be aware of this, and if it happens next week, they'll call it.
Bad luck for the Chiefs yesterday.
Terrible, awful, soooo sad luck for the Chiefs.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
didnt watch the game. how do they miss that? isn't that exactly where the guys on the line are looking?They don't need to review it. They just need to call it like any other play
A false start is a false start.
I'm quite sure the media will be asking about it, and the refs will be aware of this, and if it happens next week, they'll call it.
Bad luck for the Chiefs yesterday.
Terrible, awful, soooo sad luck for the Chiefs.
Eagles have been penalized for false starts on the play before, I'm sure they'll be penalized on it again.
Referees miss penalties all the time, I don't think the referee error was because of the play design.
Apologies. I'd like to respond and then I'll leave once more.
1. Yes, Eagles fan here. Made very clear in my first post in this thread, I'm sure. I've also posted that I would be a fan of this play regardless which team utilized it first. I'd want the Eagles to emulate it. It is a solid football play. Boring or not.
2. Back in my younger days I was extremely jealous of the Cowboys and their offensive line. It was massive. They would give the Eagles defense fits every game. I have waited decades for the Eagles to have a great O-line. Every opportunity to take advantage of that greatness should be taken. They are taking it.
3. Football plays should not be outlawed to make the officials jobs easier. There a plenty of other plays which occur randomly, weekly, in which the officials have difficulty spotting the ball at the conclusion of those plays. This play is no different in terms of spotting the ball. It is difficult. Okay. So what.
oldmanhawkins
Footballguy
not all teams have a QB that can squat 600 but that’s the wrong way to think about it. I’d bet most teams have somebody who can squat 600 and that guy can learn to say hut-hut-hike.
Just listened to Jordan Mailata’s perspective on the drama surrounding the play. He said it was rich that other teams were crying wolf about penalties not called on the Eagles during the play when those same teams are lining up in the neutral zone as well and trying to imitate Hurts’ cadence to initiate that early movement. I’ve got no problem with a team doing anything they can to stop it. Didn’t like when they tried to injure Hurts, but didn’t complain. I just want them to stop whining about it like a *****.They don't need to review it. They just need to call it like any other play
A false start is a false start.
I'm quite sure the media will be asking about it, and the refs will be aware of this, and if it happens next week, they'll call it.
Bad luck for the Chiefs yesterday.
Terrible, awful, soooo sad luck for the Chiefs.
Two more things on the topic…
1. I think it’s gone next year. “Can’t be officiated” is hard to argue against. I expect some flags in the future and some will be legit and some will be phantom. That will build the case and it’ll be gone.
2. The Eagles will have a backup plan when it goes. They are the only team successful (I think) because they are the only team that seems to understand why the play is so critical. It’s not about the yard that is gained - it’s that the play NEVER loses yards and it’s wielded in situations where going backward even half a yard is killer.
rockaction
Footballguy
You know what's stunning about all of this? The NFL has issued copyright infringement notices to everybody with the false start clips up on Twitter/X. This has nothing to do with Philly. It's probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard and everybody is like, "This has never happened before." There's a collective WTF going on.
This play is done after the year. Philly is now barely throwing for over 100 yards a game and running this 10% of the time.
That's not football. It's one ****ty moving penalty. Get rid of it. It's not football.
This play is done after the year. Philly is now barely throwing for over 100 yards a game and running this 10% of the time.
That's not football. It's one ****ty moving penalty. Get rid of it. It's not football.
Interesting thing I saw on TV today...
I was watching PRIME which carries something called the NFL Channel. It is NOT the NFL Network but it is an official product of the NFL. Today they were recapping each game, by showing significant plays, beginning-to-end. About 50% (or more) of the commercials shown during my viewing were by "official partners" of the NFL. Including one by Pepsi in which all NFL teams were represented in some way or other. During this 30 second spot there was a specific reference (via a catchy song/tune) to this exact "tush-push" play. The NFL seems okay with the promotion of the play via this commercial or they would not have approved it's use...nationally.
I was watching PRIME which carries something called the NFL Channel. It is NOT the NFL Network but it is an official product of the NFL. Today they were recapping each game, by showing significant plays, beginning-to-end. About 50% (or more) of the commercials shown during my viewing were by "official partners" of the NFL. Including one by Pepsi in which all NFL teams were represented in some way or other. During this 30 second spot there was a specific reference (via a catchy song/tune) to this exact "tush-push" play. The NFL seems okay with the promotion of the play via this commercial or they would not have approved it's use...nationally.
oldmanhawkins
Footballguy
The only part I disagree with is in bold. This play is the most Philadelphia thing ever. No one likes us, we don’t care (except we obviously do care or we wouldn’t even acknowledge it).
I agree that it’s not modern football. When I think about football I still sometimes think of fat guys hitting the sleds and that’s what the push is. But if you think of X’s and O’s and spacing and stretching the fields and 40 yard dashes, then of course the push isn’t that.
Definitely agree that it’s gone after this year. And I’m not going to miss it.
rockaction
Footballguy
Just want to begin this by saying that I'm not lecturing or haranguing you, so if you will get annoyed at my unalloyed take about the whole thing, feel free to stop reading because I'm not getting down on you or caustic with you personally. It's a general dissatisfaction.
I'm granting you the W about it being a Philadelphia phenomenon if you want. But let's forget that the play is synonymous with a football team I don't like for a moment. I have to say that I took no real notice of where it was originating from or who was doing it and what it would become when I instantly disliked it. As time went on and it was deemed legal, I grew to begrudgingly tolerate it as that first year went on (I would have banned it from the jump, but that impulse had nothing to do with the Eagles—it hadn't become quite the weapon yet—I just immediately hated it), but now that it's 2025 and the play has become a play run at a rate of 10% of the total plays the Eagles run over the course of a game I can't help but find it completely obnoxious, bad form, and poor sportsmanship. It is, in reality, a loophole in the rules that's being abused. This is especially true when one thinks back through football history and realizes it was 1906 when Teddy Roosevelt paved the way for the forward pass to be allowed in football so that the young men playing the sport would stop dying in the stupid scrums (or he was going to ban the sport) that were commonplace—and now you have a modern professional team with only 2 passing plays that have gained 10+ yards in 2 games??
No. It's just stupid and everybody wriggles around and there's nothing meritorious about it. Playing with this play as a centerpiece beggars belief and just turns back the clock to something that is not the game most of us love. If you have a problem with the rejection of your body wriggling and meat surfing, form your own league. Go claw somebody's eyes out in a bizarre ethnic fight among Italian and Irishmen. Enjoy 1910 again.
Just keep it away from the NFL.
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The NFL is using it because they aren't stupid. It's talked about by everyone. They are capitalizing on the marketing aspect. Has nothing to do with them condoning or promoting the actual play necessarily. It's a target of opportunity.
I don't care that Philly runs it. My team could run it and I would still hate the play and what it has devolved into. The fact that both teams are now lining up in the neutral zone, the offense is jumping the count early many times and none of this is getting called is just making this play worse and worse for football. It doesn't matter what team is doing this. The play is terrible for the game when not officiated properly.
My contention from the start has always been that eventually every team would work on the technique and get it to work. I cannot understand why this hasn't happened yet. The concept is not difficult. O-line get low and drive on the snap delivering a blow to gain a half yard start. It's not rocket surgery. QB times his push with the initial drive and find a seam to squeeze through while more push from behind. Doesn't seem complicated. But apparently it is. Buffalo is terrible at it (lost a game a couple years ago to the Vikes trying to run it coming out of their endzone and also blew the KC game last year because they can't do it. It just flabbergasts me.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Other than achieving a 1st down or TD, you mean? Because those are both football things that have merit.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
IIRC they didn’t have a tush push until almost halfway through the game. I’m not a huge fan of the play but this seems a bit hyperbolic.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Even if you don't have the personnel to run the push as effectively as the Eagles, design your own version based off the personnel you have.
rockaction
Footballguy
Actually, not really. If it's 10% of your plays, it's probably the specific play you call the most. That's fact. There isn't one play they call more.
rockaction
Footballguy
Other than achieving a 1st down or TD, you mean? Because those are both football things that have merit.
Nah, you can have this argument. The NFL is now realizing, as it often does like when Belichick would show them their loopholes and call the league "stupid," that it's not really a football play and is indeed "stupid."
You can indeed argue a million things about law, normative aims, positive existence, whatever.
I personally loathe it and have always loathed it.
If you want your games to look like that, have at it, bro. I'm not watching it.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Right - it’s not the Bills fault that their QB is basically Zoolander & thus can only run to one side.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That’s fine, but your claim that the play has no merit is provably incorrect.Other than achieving a 1st down or TD, you mean? Because those are both football things that have merit.
Nah, you can have this argument. The NFL is now realizing, as it often does like when Belichick would show them their loopholes and call the league "stupid," that it's not really a football play and is indeed "stupid."
You can indeed argue a million things about law, normative aims, positive existence, whatever.
I personally loathe it and have always loathed it.
If you want your games to look like that, have at it, bro. I'm not watching it.
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rockaction
Footballguy
That’s fine, but your claim that the lay has no merit is probably incorrect.Other than achieving a 1st down or TD, you mean? Because those are both football things that have merit.
Nah, you can have this argument. The NFL is now realizing, as it often does like when Belichick would show them their loopholes and call the league "stupid," that it's not really a football play and is indeed "stupid."
You can indeed argue a million things about law, normative aims, positive existence, whatever.
I personally loathe it and have always loathed it.
If you want your games to look like that, have at it, bro. I'm not watching it.
Nope. I don't think it's in the spirit of football as conceived since 1906. That's why I put it in there. In fact, it's being discussed today and a bunch of teams that are disinterested have called it "too violent," which was the point of the 1906 forward pass rule that came from the president of the country. He also banned a play called the flying wedge.
So, I do have an argument that's not incorrect but only debatable one way or the other.
It's clearly not a binary one. Peace.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I’m not sure this is a factual statement. I’d be willing to bet they run more specific plays to Barkley on runs than they do tush pushes. Regardless, the argument itself is framed as a strawman. The tush push is a rushing play. More specifically, a designed QB run. That’s the type of play it is. It is not its own type.
If you want to make a case that the Eagles call more designed runs for the QB than any other play, it’s probably still not true, but at least it’s a properly framed argument.
All due respect, of course. I’m no fan of the play, but rational minds can disagree about whether it has merit, or whether it’s “the centerpiece” of the Eagles offense. It’s certainly a play they’re known for, but that says nothing about frequency.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Meh tomato, tomahto. You can choose to hate it. I think it’s great, football sometimes is about lining up and just smashing the other team. I was lucky enough to be at Arrowhead on Sunday. That was the loudest stadium I’ve ever been in, no doubt. When they lined up for the tush push, a sense of unwilling acceptance just washed over the stadium and it got quiet. Everyone knew they were converting. Of course people want it banned. Their teams can’t stop it and for whatever reason they can’t run it either.
The argument that it’s ’ugly Football’ doesn’t track with me; I’ve watched the Jets, Jags, Browns and until quite recently the lions, play for decades. That was at times as ugly and as close to “not football” as it gets.
It’s not a coincidence that all the teams that voted for banning this play-with the notable exception of Detroit because MCDC is the opposite of a raging puss-cake-are on the eagles schedule. The teams that won’t face it this year year voted against banning it. That tells you all you need to know.
They’ll ban it next year, but it’s super lame.
The argument that it’s ’ugly Football’ doesn’t track with me; I’ve watched the Jets, Jags, Browns and until quite recently the lions, play for decades. That was at times as ugly and as close to “not football” as it gets.
It’s not a coincidence that all the teams that voted for banning this play-with the notable exception of Detroit because MCDC is the opposite of a raging puss-cake-are on the eagles schedule. The teams that won’t face it this year year voted against banning it. That tells you all you need to know.
They’ll ban it next year, but it’s super lame.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, that's the problem with arguing about it without defining vague terms at first.
It clearly is a national debate and their most-run play. Can you tell me another Philadelphia Eagles play that people are talking about?
I think it qualifies and you don't. We think the other is wrong. I think I'm hanging up and that I'm correct. The front webpage of ESPN does, too, but that's citing authority.
I'll leave it to others to decide this one, but I wasn't intending hyperbole nor anything.
rockaction
Footballguy
This isn't me being a jerk—I do not have the time and wherewithal today. It's fine if people disagree and I certainly don't think this is worth getting personal over, so I'm going to move on with absolutely no hard feelings nor an entrenched position.
eta* And I am not mad in the least. It's a long day personally and I just wanted HSG to know I respect his position but disagree and can't really address the issue with the time and situation I currently have. Y'all can jump off from there, though! Have at it, fellas.
eta2* This is the problem with written communication. My first sentence still sounds terse. It isn't. Can't express that enough. HSG is a friend of mine on these boards, for sure. You guys all have at it and peace.
eta* And I am not mad in the least. It's a long day personally and I just wanted HSG to know I respect his position but disagree and can't really address the issue with the time and situation I currently have. Y'all can jump off from there, though! Have at it, fellas.
eta2* This is the problem with written communication. My first sentence still sounds terse. It isn't. Can't express that enough. HSG is a friend of mine on these boards, for sure. You guys all have at it and peace.
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unckeyherb
Footballguy
Btw Sirriani said something that I think gets overlooked. When they line up for that play, EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING. They are saying hey, this is what we are going to do, come try to stop us. And no one can. Its crazy
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I’m not going to get in a long drawn out thing here, but you’ve seen the videos of your entire line blocking before the snap?
unckeyherb
Footballguy
I’ve seen one video of the two guards jumping a millisecond before the snap, once. If you think that this play is successful because they’re consistently offsides you are mistaken. And for what it’s worth, the defensive line consistently lines up in the neutral zone on this play all the time. That also never gets called.
rockaction
Footballguy
Uh, the ones that the NFL threatened Twitter users with legal action if they kept showing it showed them completely offside and false starting.
It was commented on repeatedly. They were way offsides. The guy they go to for officiating on the networks said he was done analyzing it because it was ridiculous.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Thank you and agreed... FALSE START, 5-yd penalty, let the whining begin.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, because it’s a glitch in the matrix. The Eagles have a 96% success rate. The league average, per ESPN, is 85%.
There are many teams across the league that simply won’t run it because they don’t want their players to get hurt, especially the QB. Philly doesn’t need to worry about that because their QB is a) big, strong and less likely to be hurt and B) completely expendable and a glorified running back whose team has decided to not let throw because why bother when you can run like Philly and your QB might not be league-average
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I remember everyone including eagles fans complaining about the KC dude drop stepping early. But when the birds do it it’s eh, a millisecond early.
And yeah I know about the defense. There should be a flag on every play, but there rarely is. That’s part of my problem with it
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
And no mention of all the KC DL offsides. Probably just an oversight……
Weirdos want this play to be about the Eagles. Normal people are wondering how the officials missed so many infractions on one play. You can decide who you are.
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unckeyherb
Footballguy
oh 100% the refs need to call it and the Eagles need to clean it up. But again, the jump before the snap is not something they do routinely and it is not why they are successful at it.
Ah, the old two wrongs make a right corollary.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
literally zero evidence of this being an injury risk play. Such a bs excuse for wanting to get rid of it. BTW, would you agree that Allen is bigger and stronger than Jalen? Last year, Sean McDermott went on the record as saying this play needed to be banned because of the high injury risk it poses. Then he runs his QB out to attempt it (and fail). So, which is it? Is it an injury risk and you just don't care about your player's safety? Or do you just want to ban it because you can't stop it and the "injury risk" moniker sounds like a winner? Stupid? or Liar?
unckeyherb
Footballguy
right, this is the one play that I keep seeing used as proof that they jump offsides every time. This is also the play that the dline is encrouching and doesn't get called. What do you want me to say? Refs missed multiple penalties on this one. So out of character for them to miss a penalty.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Nope, just pointing out that the refs missed penalties on both sides of the ball. Which is a complete nonsequiter to the argument that this play should be banned.
rockaction
Footballguy
The Bills have converted it 51 out of 57 times. That’s an 89.5% success rate, per ESPN.
You’re at 116 attempts with a success rate of 96.6%, according to ESPN, meaning you have been successful 112 times.
I’m not sure you can rip the Bills nor say your success is unique. You can say that other teams won’t run it. There are a few quoted people in the article saying you guys are unique, but the league success rate, which is 84.5%, and your success rate are only about 12% different. You might say, “That’s a lot!” but the league success rate on 4th and 1 is about 64.5%.
What you really ought to ask is why the league is willing to forgo that 20% competitive advantage. Is it because they “can't run” a play that is 85% successful league-wide, or is it because they don’t want their QB and OL getting maimed in the process? I’ll wait and let you figure out an answer to that.
ProstheticRGK
Footballguy
The injury argument was already thoroughly defanged in the offseason political push by Goodell to ban the play.
Now, the argument(s) is/are: “Philly gets away with offside EVERY TIME” and “Our refs are incompetent to call this play”.
Hey, btw, how competent are the refs at calling what is a catch? That seems like a really difficult call for the refs to make, which they get wrong at a high percentage. Should we ban the forward pass, again?
Now, the argument(s) is/are: “Philly gets away with offside EVERY TIME” and “Our refs are incompetent to call this play”.
Hey, btw, how competent are the refs at calling what is a catch? That seems like a really difficult call for the refs to make, which they get wrong at a high percentage. Should we ban the forward pass, again?
Todem
Footballguy
Agree 100% and no doubt this is the last season you will see this play in the NFL.
Funny....it took a game vs the Chiefs for the outrage to boil over LOL.......of course!!!!
unckeyherb
Footballguy
So you are telling me that, without ANY EVIDENCE, the Bills' head coach believes that this play is so dangerous that it needs to be banned. However, knowing its lethality to his QB, he still has run the play 57 times? Are you sure he wants it banned because it poses injury risk? Again, there is no evidence that this play is any more dangerous than any other play. That doesn't mean that there aren't teams out there that do have concerns, which is fine. Don't run it.
Also, I would wager this play nets the Eagles an extra 1.5 wins per season. Teams that are forgoing the 20% advantage are doing so because they can't run it. If they felt confident in running it, they would. Talk to Joe Burrow about his team's desire to protect him; they have a generational QB on the team and refuse to get guys that can block for him. Give me a break on these teams worried about their players getting hurt on this play.
According to your stats above the Eagles and Bills have run the tush push 173 times. I know of zero injuries sustained by either team because of this play. The risk does not exist.
Todem
Footballguy
Yeah it's not about the wins and losses for me.....it's garbage football.....utterly absurd.
It will be banned next season. No doubt.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
unckeyherb
Footballguy
I get it. Like I said, tomato tomahto. I think its a great play and its one that makes the Eagles extremely difficult to defeat.
Also, I agree that the fervor by people like you and @rockaction that don't like it will eventually lead to it being banned. And again, I get why people don't like the play, so not a judgement call on my part. This will probably be the last year of this play, so I'd prepare for an assload of this play being run for the next four months.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Dizzy
Footballguy
Andy Reid has influence and you can bet that a letter with video clips was sent to NYC complaining about the false starts. I expect an over-reaction from the ref's going forward calling false starts on almost every tush push.
I agree with you, this will be the last year of the tush push... but I don't think it will take until the end of the season. I think frustrations in the inconsistency of officiating it going forward will kill it by mid-season.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
0% chance
rockaction
Footballguy
The Bills run it because they want to win. McDermott says the OL is at risk. Never mentions the QB.
I have another question nobody can answer. If it’s such a football play why did it take a Scotsman who was steeped in rugby to design and implement it when he worked or consulted for the Eagles? That seems unlike mere happenstance.
I have another question nobody can answer. If it’s such a football play why did it take a Scotsman who was steeped in rugby to design and implement it when he worked or consulted for the Eagles? That seems unlike mere happenstance.
