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UNC Football and bball LOL (1 Viewer)

In honor of UNC's Final Four appearance this weekend: North Carolina’s Dominance Fails to Cover Cheating’s Stain

...

“It’s very disillusioning to live through the last six years here,” Smith told me. “The university is operating like a crime family, and it shows the lengths to which they will go to protect their athletic machine.”

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The Wainstein report described his awakening when he arrived at Chapel Hill in 2006: “He quickly realized that there was lots of talk about the importance of academics without anything to back up that talk. He found Chapel Hill’s attitude toward student-athlete academics to be like an Easter egg: Beautiful and impressive to the outside world but without much life inside.”
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johnnyrock62000 said:
Lol at pushing the timeline back again because of more allegations. I'm still advocating Death Penalty. 
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It's really a shame that UNC is in the Championship Game vs. Gonzaga. Are they really a Blue Blood if the legacy was built on cheating? Are the coaches really worthy of the Hall of Fame? More like the Hall of Shame.

if they win it could be the first vacated championship. I'm still advocating the Death Penalty for the University of North Carolina Tar Heels. 

 
johnnyrock62000 said:
It's really a shame that UNC is in the Championship Game vs. Gonzaga. Are they really a Blue Blood if the legacy was built on cheating? Are the coaches really worthy of the Hall of Fame? More like the Hall of Shame.

if they win it could be the first vacated championship. I'm still advocating the Death Penalty for the University of North Carolina Tar Heels. 
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Wtf are you talking about? 

 
Getting tired of laughing, but still doing it. Buying National Championship gear as I type. Will I have to give that back? Or just not give a ####?

 
Was reading back through this thread and I wasted a TON of time in here...A TON!  At least the predictions I made are still on track, so I've got that going for me :thumbup:  

 
johnnyrock62000 said:
It's really a shame that UNC is in the Championship Game vs. Gonzaga. Are they really a Blue Blood if the legacy was built on cheating? Are the coaches really worthy of the Hall of Fame? More like the Hall of Shame.

if they win it could be the first vacated championship. I'm still advocating the Death Penalty for the University of North Carolina Tar Heels. 
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I'm not sure that's fair.  I've made a pretty detailed defense here as far as most of the men's basketball team is concerned. Here is a good summary, please check it out.

 
mquinnjr said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/31/sports/ncaabasketball/north-carolina-final-four-cheating-fake-classes.html
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Maybe other schools should try it?

In all seriousness, that's a drive-by column by someone who wasn't that familiar with the details and left out a ton of important information to make a point.  It doesn't mention that half the students in those classes were non-athletes who could obtain the same easy grades with little work, making it an academic problem rather than an athletic problem at the core.  It is an athletic scandal to the extent the athletes were steered to the classes knowing they were fake, or if the athletes got special treatment, but the evidence of that sort of thing for men's basketball in particular is very flimsy (it's much stronger for women's basketball and IIRC some for football). And part of the reason it's so flimsy is that almost to a man the UNC men's basketball players say they actually did work in the classes, which is barely mentioned in the article. The one player who said different- who is a bit of a loose cannon, to put it mildly- said so to ESPN but refused to participate in any investigation despite being asked.  None of that is mentioned in the article either.

I'm off to look at some photos and watch some videos now and probably for the rest of the week.  It's gonna be fun :clap:

 
Watching UNC win championships is kind of like watching Hulk Hogan win the Battle Royal against Andre the Giant or seeing Lance Armstong win seven consecutive Tour de France titles. It makes for a great spectacle but anyone with half a brain realizes it is all ultimately based upon deception.

 
Wow, what a shocker.  An academic issue, not an athletics issue, huh?  If only someone had been patiently explaining that here for the last three years.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Weird how "some sketchy stuff was happening at the school and I suspect that the men's basketball program was more involved than the evidence indicates but I can't actually point to a specific NCAA rule they broke" might turn out to be insufficient for major sanctions. If only someone had been saying that all along.
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:thumbup:

 
Athletics are on the up and up with this sham ruling, fine, congrats.

In the meantime, the school should lose its accreditation.  Its falsifying its academic records systemically for years.

If I were a team that lost to Carolina in this time period with athletes in these classes, I'd also file a class action lawsuit for fraud.

 
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Smack Tripper said:
Athletics are on the up and up with this sham ruling, fine, congrats.

In the meantime, the school should lose its accreditation.  Its falsifying its academic records systemically for years.

If I were a team that lost to Carolina in this time period with athletes in these classes, I'd also file a class action lawsuit for fraud.
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More of this, please. Especially the last line. Just hook it to my veins.

 
ConstruxBoy said:
Is Dan Kane on suicide watch? 
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It's funny, you'd think all these people who wanted to expose an academic scandal in order to improve education at a state university would take satisfaction in having successfully exposed that scandal and triggering a wave of reforms at that university, and wouldn't need to extract an ultimately meaningless pound of flesh from the athletics department. Instead they all seem so frustrated and unfulfilled. If I didn't know any better I might even question the true motives of all those people!

 
T&P to Brandon Ingram, the real victim here.  Ingram was misled by these outrageous false charges, and as a result turned down what was ultimately an opportunity to win an ACC regular season and conference title, play in the Final Four, and most likely win a National Championship. Instead Ingram ended up at an inferior program and had a vastly inferior college basketball experience.

 
ConstruxBoy said:
Yeah, that's brutal timing.

All laughing aside, I think this article does a good job of making all the points that Tobias or I have, while not being written by a UNC grad or fan:

Club Trillion's take
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So basically its "yeah cheated but we got off on a technicality." 

There were emails that literally discussed changing grades to keep players eligible.  But yeah this is totally an "academic" issue.

 
ConstruxBoy said:
Yeah, that's brutal timing.

All laughing aside, I think this article does a good job of making all the points that Tobias or I have, while not being written by a UNC grad or fan:

Club Trillion's take
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I read that article as essentially saying that they cheated but there is no smoking gun to prove it. Is that what you and Tobias have been saying? That isn't what I recall you saying. 

 
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Just Win Baby said:
I read that article as essentially saying that they cheated but there is no smoking gun to prove it. Is that what you and Tobias have been saying? That isn't what I recall you saying. 
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I think we were saying we were laughing.

I won't speak for Tobias, but the fact is that what they did was certainly unethical, but it wasn't cheating, as defined by the NCAA. Cheating is changing a professor's grade for an athlete from a C to a B. That didn't happen. Cheating is having a different student take a test for an athlete, or write a term paper for a student. That didn't happen (in this case, not talking about Marvin Austin). Crafting a super easy course and giving easy grades isn't cheating. Hell, the athletes got a worse grade on average than the normal student. It's crap, I know., and I'm sad for Dan Kane (I'm not), but it wasn't the "fraud" that the NCAA could deal with in their bylaws. Sorry.

Embarrassing, and hope it never happens again.

 
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Man that unc rebuttal is just amazing. /Italian chef doing kissing motion 

"This sham class wasn't available to just athletes but ALL students" 

How did they get that past the school president?

 
ConstruxBoy said:
I think we were saying we were laughing.

I won't speak for Tobias, but the fact is that what they did was certainly unethical, but it wasn't cheating, as defined by the NCAA. Cheating is changing a professor's grade for an athlete from a C to a B. That didn't happen. Cheating is having a different student take a test for an athlete, or write a term paper for a student. That didn't happen (in this case, not talking about Marvin Austin). Crafting a super easy course and giving easy grades isn't cheating. Hell, the athletes got a worse grade on average than the normal student. It's crap, I know., and I'm sad for Dan Kane (I'm not), but it wasn't the "fraud" that the NCAA could deal with in their bylaws. Sorry.

Embarrassing, and hope it never happens again.
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Um both of those did in fact happen.  Its in the emails.  But instead of it being a professor it was a unqualified secretary doing the grading and grade changing.  Its rather mind blowing.

Its funny how the argument of all this from UNC has changed over the course of the years.

But seriously kudos to you for at least speaking out about this sham. 

 
pantherclub said:
Um both of those did in fact happen. 
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I haven't followed along enough to know (and I don't really care enough to dig). You say those events happened and others here say they haven't. This doesn't seem to me to be a gray area - it either happened or it didn't. Or is there some kind of acrostic semantics happening here where the word "is" is being parsed?

 
Louisville is preparing its appeal petition even as we speak: "Those prostitutes weren't just available to basketball recruits.  They would have gone down on anyone."

 
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Capella said:
Man that unc rebuttal is just amazing. /Italian chef doing kissing motion 

"This sham class wasn't available to just athletes but ALL students" 

How did they get that past the school president?
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If you're a university president (or chancellor, or whatever title the top guy at UNC holds), this is the easiest decision in the history of easy decisions.  Your choices are:

A) Say that the university turned a blind eye to these fake classes to benefit your athletics programs.  Result: The NCAA comes down hard on you, and your university loses millions and millions of dollars in revenue.

B) Say that this had nothing to do with athletics at all, and it was just a byproduct of having ####ty academic procedures.  This takes the issue out of the NCAA's hands and leaves the matter up to UNC's regional accreditor (the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools -- SACS).  SACS isn't going to do anything because first of all you're UNC, and and secondly there's not much SACS can do anyway.  Regional accreditors generally have the choice to either do nothing or nuke the school from orbit.  There's no good "in between" penalty.  

It would be professional malpractice to choose A when B is available to you.    

 
IvanKaramazov said:
If you're a university president (or chancellor, or whatever title the top guy at UNC holds), this is the easiest decision in the history of easy decisions.  Your choices are:

A) Say that the university turned a blind eye to these fake classes to benefit your athletics programs.  Result: The NCAA comes down hard on you, and your university loses millions and millions of dollars in revenue.

B) Say that this had nothing to do with athletics at all, and it was just a byproduct of having ####ty academic procedures.  This takes the issue out of the NCAA's hands and leaves the matter up to UNC's regional accreditor (the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools -- SACS).  SACS isn't going to do anything because first of all you're UNC, and and secondly there's not much SACS can do anyway.  Regional accreditors generally have the choice to either do nothing or nuke the school from orbit.  There's no good "in between" penalty.  

It would be professional malpractice to choose A when B is available to you.    
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If its B though do you lose professional credibility and would that hurt you or the people around if in future endeavors? 

 
pantherclub said:
If its B though do you lose professional credibility and would that hurt you or the people around if in future endeavors? 
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Not really.  The provost can credibly ####-can an associate dean, department chair, and a few academic advisors and make them the fall guys.  It's honestly not far-fetched that the academic leaders of the institution had no idea that this was taking place.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Not really.  The provost can credibly ####-can an associate dean, department chair, and a few academic advisors and make them the fall guys.  It's honestly not far-fetched that the academic leaders of the institution had no idea that this was taking place.  
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree here.  I think everyone knew from the top all the way to the janitors.   No school,  especially of the caliber of unc is going to have that much of a gap in oversight.  It would just be impossible. 

 
Uruk-Hai said:
I haven't followed along enough to know (and I don't really care enough to dig). You say those events happened and others here say they haven't. This doesn't seem to me to be a gray area - it either happened or it didn't. Or is there some kind of acrostic semantics happening here where the word "is" is being parsed?
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I have not seen any evidence or emails showing that grades were changed or tests were taken for these athletes. Can someone point that out to me? TIA

 
Sorry, the site requires my work email. No thanks. So it says that the men's basketball team had their grades changed from the professor's given grades and had their papers written for them?

 
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