USC Pro day coverage (1 Viewer)

[FUBAR]

It's a viable concern, but the reason I state it is solely because of his size is because nobody has the same concerns about White despite the fact that White had less carries than Bush this year, and I believe in their respective USC careers.

No, but then White isn't being hailed as a Hall of Fame back before putting on a uniform. White is going to bust. Bush might disapoint, but if he has good coaching, he'll make an impact. As I said before, I'm just not certain it will be as an every down workhorse.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

He is faster, but he is lighter and while he can benchpress more than Tomlinson, his legs are not nearly as strong (or thick). I can't say his moves, hands and vision are better yet either and I think it is a mistake to say they are.

Scroll down and take a look at Tomlinson when he was a little older than Reggie. A common error is to compare a rookie to a 5 year vet in size and stature. Bush is a hard worker. He'll beef up just like LT did. I would argue Reggie's legs are more powerful today than LT's were back then. I really really think LT is the best compare to Reggie, not Faulk, or Westbrook. Bush today = Tomlinson Spring of 01...

Have to disgaree with you here. LT2 was an inch shorter than Bush and 10 pounds heavier coming out of college. LT2's legs would get my nod for strength. I think the Faulk (or Clinton Portis) comps or more accurate than LT2 and that is based on the body type. The odds that Reggie Bush will pack on 20 pounds and get to LT2's weight are 1000-1

Bush measured 5-10 and 7/8ths. He weighed 201.Tomlinson measured 5-10 and 3/4ths. He weighed 205.

eta: those #s are from respective combine cattle calls...

I had never actually looked at it before, but going back and looking at LT pre-draft he was very similar to Reggie Bush.Senior Bowl shot of LT:

http://espn.go.com/media/ncf/2001/0120/photo/a_tom_i.jpg

He looks like a totally different guy today, I didn't realize he was so small heading into the draft.

Here's Reggie:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20...0reggiebush.jpg

 

[-OZ-]

He is faster, but he is lighter and while he can benchpress more than Tomlinson, his legs are not nearly as strong (or thick). I can't say his moves, hands and vision are better yet either and I think it is a mistake to say they are.

Scroll down and take a look at Tomlinson when he was a little older than Reggie. A common error is to compare a rookie to a 5 year vet in size and stature. Bush is a hard worker. He'll beef up just like LT did. I would argue Reggie's legs are more powerful today than LT's were back then. I really really think LT is the best compare to Reggie, not Faulk, or Westbrook. Bush today = Tomlinson Spring of 01...

Have to disgaree with you here. LT2 was an inch shorter than Bush and 10 pounds heavier coming out of college. LT2's legs would get my nod for strength. I think the Faulk (or Clinton Portis) comps or more accurate than LT2 and that is based on the body type. The odds that Reggie Bush will pack on 20 pounds and get to LT2's weight are 1000-1

Bush measured 5-10 and 7/8ths. He weighed 201.Tomlinson measured 5-10 and 3/4ths. He weighed 205.

eta: those #s are from respective combine cattle calls...

I had never actually looked at it before, but going back and looking at LT pre-draft he was very similar to Reggie Bush.Senior Bowl shot of LT:

http://espn.go.com/media/ncf/2001/0120/photo/a_tom_i.jpg

He looks like a totally different guy today, I didn't realize he was so small heading into the draft.

Here's Reggie:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20...0reggiebush.jpg

I was just thinking this, looking back at that draft, had LT2 gone to a bigger football program, USC / Texas / etc. he probably would have gotten the same hype, and wouldn't have fallen to #5. Not sure if he would have gone ahead of Vick, but #2 to Arizona?

 

[wannabee]

Also, the wishbone option offense at TCU hurt LT's evaluation for the NFL. Most were wondering how it would translate into the NFL. I think this hurt him a lot that most people forget.

 

[Warpig]

LenDale White 15 reps and skipped the rest of workouts.

15 reps? And didn't do anything else? This guy is starting to sound more and more like a first round bust. For his size he should have done atleast 20+ reps. Hell, Bush did more than him. I think he's riding his popularity and taking advantage of it. I think I'll drop him down my list. I'll pass on some weak, fat, unmotivated punk that'll be out of the league in 2 years due to "off the field" issues.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

If the reports on his bench reps are true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, he is in torouble. Only two conclusions can be drawn. Either he was too unmotivated at a very important pro day to give his best, a troubling proposition, or worse he did his best. If the latter it bodes ill. Hell I was born in the 1950's. I'm well past my prime and no outstanding athlete, but I can do 15 reps at 225.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

As someone who traded for the 1st pick, I am very happy to see the strength and a 4.35 (avg) is blazing. However, before we put this guy in Canton, Derrick Blaylock ran a 4.33 and his weight was the same.

To view things the way Bloom writes them, Bush's upside is Marshall Faulk and his downside is probably D. Blaylock. FWIW, I think Bloom's downside are almost always too high.

Now, if only Houston would trade the pick or DD

Ill admit to being excitable and overly optimistic on "my guys". Just to clarify, Ive said Bush's downside is Westbrook - and I think that is his absolute floor. I know I'm not alone on the extreme optimism on Bush. The *only* questions people can come up with about him are his size (as has already been pointed out, he's still young enough that his body is maturing and he should add 5-10 lbs), his durability at the next level (i dont understand this one as much except as an offshoot of the size question, he didn't any major durability issues I know of, and he's a 100% dedicated worker in unbelievable condition), and the ability to handle a full load because he hasn't done it (he was paired with the best RB between the tackles in the country, I can't really count that against him too much). The criticism that he was surrounded by top players is just misguided. Watching Bush play, its clear right away that his success had a lot more to do with his talent and ability that the O-line paving huge holes or having to face a defense pre-occupied with stopping the pass. Texas was a top notch college defense with at least 4 guys who will play on Sundays, and they "held" him to 177 yards on 19 touches. Im always open to criticism - I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm happy to discuss which of my downsides are too high in another thread or over PMs.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Leinart first. Espn is reporting he completed a very pedestrian 36 out of 45 passes. remember Young was 45-50 and Cutler 44-45 (in terrible conditions and throwing 20 deep balls). The better numbers are what you expect from a Pro-Day. My niece said he looked terrible at the start. He says he was tight. This validates what I've seen and reported over the past two years, btw. When he tried to throw hard the balls were wild and high. This is exactly what happens in game situations. I honestly believe his heralded accuracy is false and will be his biggest problem in the NFL. All due respect to Bloom, but I cannot say this is a franchise grade QB.

Im not sure I deserve that much respect really, but I appreciate it.On Leinart - What I believe makes him a franchise QB is his ability to assimilate and run an offense - make reads, decisions, and deliver the ball accurately. I was a little alarmed that the UT secondary was getting to his passes to the deep out parts of the field - I do think that was the closest simulation to an NFL secondary that he saw all year. Still, in that same game Leinart absolutely took apart UT in the 2nd half, and put USC in a position to win if their D could have stopped Vince Young at all. Brees and Pennington have been successful QBs with just as big of arm questions (if not bigger), and I think Leinart's intangibles are superior to theirs. Strictly from an NFL pov (not fantasy), I would rather work with Leinart's arm strength question than Young's mechanics and need to go through QB school (or have an offense installed specifically for him), or Cutler's decision-making/gunslinger mentality.

Inspired debate is what brings the best out of the shark pool, and Im just glad someone I respect (chaos commish) even recognizes my opinion as one worth respect - the debate on the 3 QBs is one of the most interesting ones in recent draft memory, and I think we are all hitting some truths, and some "eye of the beholder" differences in perception. It will be a lot of fun to watch this one shake out on April 29 and over the next 10 years.

 

[wannabee]

Leinart first.  Espn is reporting he completed a very pedestrian 36 out of 45 passes.  remember Young was 45-50 and Cutler 44-45 (in terrible conditions and throwing 20 deep balls).  The better numbers are what you expect from a Pro-Day.  My niece said he looked terrible at the start.  He says he was tight.  This validates what I've seen and reported over the past two years, btw.  When he tried to throw hard the balls were wild and high.  This is exactly what happens in game situations.  I honestly believe his heralded accuracy is false and will be his biggest problem in the NFL.  All due respect to Bloom, but I cannot say this is a franchise grade QB. 

Im not sure I deserve that much respect really, but I appreciate it.Inspired debate is what brings the best out of the shark pool, and Im just glad someone I respect (chaos commish) even recognizes my opinion as one worth respect - the debate on the 3 QBs is one of the most interesting ones in recent draft memory, and I think we are all hitting some truths, and some "eye of the beholder" differences in perception. It will be a lot of fun to watch this one shake out on April 29 and over the next 10 years.

I feel safe in saying we all do think your opinion has merit and validation for us to consider. Good addition to the FBG staff.

 

[theedge]

I feel safe in saying we all do think your opinion has merit and validation for us to consider. Good addition to the FBG staff.

I hadn't noticed until this post. Congratulations Bloom! Well deserved!

 

[sib]

Leinart first.  Espn is reporting he completed a very pedestrian 36 out of 45 passes.  remember Young was 45-50 and Cutler 44-45 (in terrible conditions and throwing 20 deep balls).  The better numbers are what you expect from a Pro-Day.  My niece said he looked terrible at the start.  He says he was tight.  This validates what I've seen and reported over the past two years, btw.  When he tried to throw hard the balls were wild and high.  This is exactly what happens in game situations.  I honestly believe his heralded accuracy is false and will be his biggest problem in the NFL.  All due respect to Bloom, but I cannot say this is a franchise grade QB. 

Im not sure I deserve that much respect really, but I appreciate it.On Leinart - What I believe makes him a franchise QB is his ability to assimilate and run an offense - make reads, decisions, and deliver the ball accurately. I was a little alarmed that the UT secondary was getting to his passes to the deep out parts of the field - I do think that was the closest simulation to an NFL secondary that he saw all year. Still, in that same game Leinart absolutely took apart UT in the 2nd half, and put USC in a position to win if their D could have stopped Vince Young at all. Brees and Pennington have been successful QBs with just as big of arm questions (if not bigger), and I think Leinart's intangibles are superior to theirs. Strictly from an NFL pov (not fantasy), I would rather work with Leinart's arm strength question than Young's mechanics and need to go through QB school (or have an offense installed specifically for him), or Cutler's decision-making/gunslinger mentality.

Inspired debate is what brings the best out of the shark pool, and Im just glad someone I respect (chaos commish) even recognizes my opinion as one worth respect - the debate on the 3 QBs is one of the most interesting ones in recent draft memory, and I think we are all hitting some truths, and some "eye of the beholder" differences in perception. It will be a lot of fun to watch this one shake out on April 29 and over the next 10 years.

Bloom I agree that this QB's in this class will be compared every which way going forward. I do like Matt Leinart, but if I was a NFL GM I just cannot take him over Vince Young. I look at what he did in the Rose Bowl games against USC and Michigan; he basically single-handedly won those games. This is a guy who plays big time in the biggest games, a tremendous athlete, and has a rocket arm. Yea, I know his delivery is a little funky, but I can't argue with the results. I think the only knock on Vince Young was the Wonderlic test. I really could care less; all i know is once he's on the field, he delivers.

 

[cstu]

Leinart first. Espn is reporting he completed a very pedestrian 36 out of 45 passes. remember Young was 45-50 and Cutler 44-45 (in terrible conditions and throwing 20 deep balls). The better numbers are what you expect from a Pro-Day. My niece said he looked terrible at the start. He says he was tight. This validates what I've seen and reported over the past two years, btw. When he tried to throw hard the balls were wild and high. This is exactly what happens in game situations. I honestly believe his heralded accuracy is false and will be his biggest problem in the NFL. All due respect to Bloom, but I cannot say this is a franchise grade QB.

Im not sure I deserve that much respect really, but I appreciate it.On Leinart - What I believe makes him a franchise QB is his ability to assimilate and run an offense - make reads, decisions, and deliver the ball accurately. I was a little alarmed that the UT secondary was getting to his passes to the deep out parts of the field - I do think that was the closest simulation to an NFL secondary that he saw all year. Still, in that same game Leinart absolutely took apart UT in the 2nd half, and put USC in a position to win if their D could have stopped Vince Young at all. Brees and Pennington have been successful QBs with just as big of arm questions (if not bigger), and I think Leinart's intangibles are superior to theirs. Strictly from an NFL pov (not fantasy), I would rather work with Leinart's arm strength question than Young's mechanics and need to go through QB school (or have an offense installed specifically for him), or Cutler's decision-making/gunslinger mentality.

Inspired debate is what brings the best out of the shark pool, and Im just glad someone I respect (chaos commish) even recognizes my opinion as one worth respect - the debate on the 3 QBs is one of the most interesting ones in recent draft memory, and I think we are all hitting some truths, and some "eye of the beholder" differences in perception. It will be a lot of fun to watch this one shake out on April 29 and over the next 10 years.

I love that we have 3 top QB's who very so much in their style of play. It's really like comparing apples to oranges because each of them have weaknesses that can be picked apart. Young is guy I pick on the most, but he has some intangibles that make me think he could become the best QB in the draft. Can't wait to look back 5 years from now and see how they all turned out.

 

[Jason Wood]

Leinart first.  Espn is reporting he completed a very pedestrian 36 out of 45 passes.  remember Young was 45-50 and Cutler 44-45 (in terrible conditions and throwing 20 deep balls).  The better numbers are what you expect from a Pro-Day.  My niece said he looked terrible at the start.  He says he was tight.  This validates what I've seen and reported over the past two years, btw.  When he tried to throw hard the balls were wild and high.  This is exactly what happens in game situations.  I honestly believe his heralded accuracy is false and will be his biggest problem in the NFL.  All due respect to Bloom, but I cannot say this is a franchise grade QB. 

Im not sure I deserve that much respect really, but I appreciate it.On Leinart - What I believe makes him a franchise QB is his ability to assimilate and run an offense - make reads, decisions, and deliver the ball accurately. I was a little alarmed that the UT secondary was getting to his passes to the deep out parts of the field - I do think that was the closest simulation to an NFL secondary that he saw all year. Still, in that same game Leinart absolutely took apart UT in the 2nd half, and put USC in a position to win if their D could have stopped Vince Young at all. Brees and Pennington have been successful QBs with just as big of arm questions (if not bigger), and I think Leinart's intangibles are superior to theirs. Strictly from an NFL pov (not fantasy), I would rather work with Leinart's arm strength question than Young's mechanics and need to go through QB school (or have an offense installed specifically for him), or Cutler's decision-making/gunslinger mentality.

Inspired debate is what brings the best out of the shark pool, and Im just glad someone I respect (chaos commish) even recognizes my opinion as one worth respect - the debate on the 3 QBs is one of the most interesting ones in recent draft memory, and I think we are all hitting some truths, and some "eye of the beholder" differences in perception. It will be a lot of fun to watch this one shake out on April 29 and over the next 10 years.

I love that we have 3 top QB's who very so much in their style of play. It's really like comparing apples to oranges because each of them have weaknesses that can be picked apart. Young is guy I pick on the most, but he has some intangibles that make me think he could become the best QB in the draft. Can't wait to look back 5 years from now and see how they all turned out.

Well said...This will make an interesting case study in terms of which variables are the best determinant of future success:

Leinart = Winner for Tier 1 Program + Gaudy Stats + Mechanics - Elite Athleticism
Young = Winner for Tier 1 Program + Gaudy Stats + Elite Athleticism - Mechanics
Cutler = Elite Athleticism + Mechanics - Winner for Tier 1 Program + Guady StatsI still contend that any QB who gets compared to Brett Favre is a risky one...Cutler being a "gunslinger" is something that would drive me away from him in a hurry.

 

[EBF]

Leinart first.  Espn is reporting he completed a very pedestrian 36 out of 45 passes.  remember Young was 45-50 and Cutler 44-45 (in terrible conditions and throwing 20 deep balls).  The better numbers are what you expect from a Pro-Day.  My niece said he looked terrible at the start.  He says he was tight.  This validates what I've seen and reported over the past two years, btw.  When he tried to throw hard the balls were wild and high.  This is exactly what happens in game situations.  I honestly believe his heralded accuracy is false and will be his biggest problem in the NFL.  All due respect to Bloom, but I cannot say this is a franchise grade QB. 

Im not sure I deserve that much respect really, but I appreciate it.On Leinart - What I believe makes him a franchise QB is his ability to assimilate and run an offense - make reads, decisions, and deliver the ball accurately. I was a little alarmed that the UT secondary was getting to his passes to the deep out parts of the field - I do think that was the closest simulation to an NFL secondary that he saw all year. Still, in that same game Leinart absolutely took apart UT in the 2nd half, and put USC in a position to win if their D could have stopped Vince Young at all. Brees and Pennington have been successful QBs with just as big of arm questions (if not bigger), and I think Leinart's intangibles are superior to theirs. Strictly from an NFL pov (not fantasy), I would rather work with Leinart's arm strength question than Young's mechanics and need to go through QB school (or have an offense installed specifically for him), or Cutler's decision-making/gunslinger mentality.

Inspired debate is what brings the best out of the shark pool, and Im just glad someone I respect (chaos commish) even recognizes my opinion as one worth respect - the debate on the 3 QBs is one of the most interesting ones in recent draft memory, and I think we are all hitting some truths, and some "eye of the beholder" differences in perception. It will be a lot of fun to watch this one shake out on April 29 and over the next 10 years.

Bloom I agree that this QB's in this class will be compared every which way going forward. I do like Matt Leinart, but if I was a NFL GM I just cannot take him over Vince Young. I look at what he did in the Rose Bowl games against USC and Michigan; he basically single-handedly won those games. This is a guy who plays big time in the biggest games, a tremendous athlete, and has a rocket arm. Yea, I know his delivery is a little funky, but I can't argue with the results. I think the only knock on Vince Young was the Wonderlic test. I really could care less; all i know is once he's on the field, he delivers.

No one doubts what Young did in college. I think the real question is whether or not his style translates to the NFL game. In my opinion, most of the things that he did at Texas won't work at the NFL level. You're just not going to get 10 yards rushing every play against NFL caliber defenses. The players are too fast. Also, those little dumpoffs to the TE aren't going to be open every single play like they were against USC. If Young is going to make it as a pro, then he'll have to learn how to sit tight in the pocket, go through his progressions, and find the open man. He showed nice poise in the title game and was an efficient passer as a junior, but I still have major doubts about his ability to make it as a passer.

My rookie rankings still aren't very firm at this point in time, but I can tell you for sure that I'll have Young rated below the consensus. Everyone is in love with the athletic ability and the college dominance, but I think he's one of the riskiest prospects among the first round skill position players. There's a huge bust risk there.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Hijacked for Cutler Apologetics

Cutler being a "gunslinger" is something that would drive me away from him in a hurry.

Cutler runs in a manner reminiscent of Favre. Rolling to his right and firing (I do mean firing) the ball into tight spaces, he does "look" Favre-like. Favre is a gunslinger; thus, so is Cutler. I disagree. A telling stat is interceptions per attempt. Leinart is rightfully praised for taking care of the football; for not forcing the ball into coverage; for being a good decision maker. Last year his pick per pass ratio was 1 to 54 (solid). Cutler's was 1 to 51. That's 8 in 431 attempts for Leinart and 9 in 462 attempts for Cutler. Pretty much identical results. Cutler is hardly a gunslinger. He does have an uncanny knack for putting the ball into very tight spaces and making very fast and accurate defensive reads. The impression can be that of gunslinging, but the numbers suggest a prudent ballhandler too.That stat deserves a little analysis. Leinart produced the number while playing mostly from a lead. He played behind 5 future NFL lineman, four of them probable studs. He had the benefit of the best receiving RB in memory, who happens to be the most explosive player in the draft and the likely #1 overall pick. Joining him in the backfield was the best power back in the country, who forced defenses to play 8 and 9 in the box while setting a school record for TD runs. Leinart had the benefit of probably the top receiver in the country, another who is NFL quality, and a TE who surprised everyone this post-season by looking better than several graded higher. Every position was filled with excellence, and Leinart enjoyed the best protection in the country while surveying this talent. That isn't a knock on Leinart. He posted a solid number and deserves praise for taking care of the football.

But Cutler's situation was much different. He had no running game. He had one decent receiver. A freshman, who could possibly develop into an NFL talent, but not likely. He played mostly from behind in the toughest conference in the nation. He faced ridiculous pressure and had a worthless OL. He faced nickel and dime packages because every team knew he was chuckin' the rock. Three of those interceptions came late in games against virtual prevents in desperation time. One was to LaRon Landry, possibly the best DB in next year's draft. Another was to Jonathan Joseph, a prossible first rounder this year. All things considered Cutler's number is more impressive than Leinart's because of the circumstances. Pretty impressive ball management, reading, and decision making. Point is, the gunslinger label is a media myth. He did fumble the ball a little too much for comfort, but that's a product of the sacks and hits more than him slinging the ball around.

 

[Jason Wood]

Hijacked for Cutler Apologetics

Cutler being a "gunslinger" is something that would drive me away from him in a hurry.

Cutler runs in a manner reminiscent of Favre. Rolling to his right and firing (I do mean firing) the ball into tight spaces, he does "look" Favre-like. Favre is a gunslinger; thus, so is Cutler. I disagree. A telling stat is interceptions per attempt. Leinart is rightfully praised for taking care of the football; for not forcing the ball into coverage; for being a good decision maker. Last year his pick per pass ratio was 1 to 54 (solid). Cutler's was 1 to 51. That's 8 in 431 attempts for Leinart and 9 in 462 attempts for Cutler. Pretty much identical results. Cutler is hardly a gunslinger. He does have an uncanny knack for putting the ball into very tight spaces and making very fast and accurate defensive reads. The impression can be that of gunslinging, but the numbers suggest a prudent ballhandler too.That stat deserves a little analysis. Leinart produced the number while playing mostly from a lead. He played behind 5 future NFL lineman, four of them probable studs. He had the benefit of the best receiving RB in memory, who happens to be the most explosive player in the draft and the likely #1 overall pick. Joining him in the backfield was the best power back in the country, who forced defenses to play 8 and 9 in the box while setting a school record for TD runs. Leinart had the benefit of probably the top receiver in the country, another who is NFL quality, and a TE who surprised everyone this post-season by looking better than several graded higher. Every position was filled with excellence, and Leinart enjoyed the best protection in the country while surveying this talent. That isn't a knock on Leinart. He posted a solid number and deserves praise for taking care of the football.

But Cutler's situation was much different. He had no running game. He had one decent receiver. A freshman, who could possibly develop into an NFL talent, but not likely. He played mostly from behind in the toughest conference in the nation. He faced ridiculous pressure and had a worthless OL. He faced nickel and dime packages because every team knew he was chuckin' the rock. Three of those interceptions came late in games against virtual prevents in desperation time. One was to LaRon Landry, possibly the best DB in next year's draft. Another was to Jonathan Joseph, a prossible first rounder this year. All things considered Cutler's number is more impressive than Leinart's because of the circumstances. Pretty impressive ball management, reading, and decision making. Point is, the gunslinger label is a media myth. He did fumble the ball a little too much for comfort, but that's a product of the sacks and hits more than him slinging the ball around.

Hey Chaos,As I said the last time we discussed Cutler, I applaud the passion you put into defending him. Let me ask you this, what QB with Cutler's collegiate stats/won-loss record has gone on to be an NFL franchise passer? If there is one, I can't think of him.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Hijacked for Cutler Apologetics

Cutler being a "gunslinger" is something that would drive me away from him in a hurry.

Cutler runs in a manner reminiscent of Favre. Rolling to his right and firing (I do mean firing) the ball into tight spaces, he does "look" Favre-like. Favre is a gunslinger; thus, so is Cutler. I disagree. A telling stat is interceptions per attempt. Leinart is rightfully praised for taking care of the football; for not forcing the ball into coverage; for being a good decision maker. Last year his pick per pass ratio was 1 to 54 (solid). Cutler's was 1 to 51. That's 8 in 431 attempts for Leinart and 9 in 462 attempts for Cutler. Pretty much identical results. Cutler is hardly a gunslinger. He does have an uncanny knack for putting the ball into very tight spaces and making very fast and accurate defensive reads. The impression can be that of gunslinging, but the numbers suggest a prudent ballhandler too.That stat deserves a little analysis. Leinart produced the number while playing mostly from a lead. He played behind 5 future NFL lineman, four of them probable studs. He had the benefit of the best receiving RB in memory, who happens to be the most explosive player in the draft and the likely #1 overall pick. Joining him in the backfield was the best power back in the country, who forced defenses to play 8 and 9 in the box while setting a school record for TD runs. Leinart had the benefit of probably the top receiver in the country, another who is NFL quality, and a TE who surprised everyone this post-season by looking better than several graded higher. Every position was filled with excellence, and Leinart enjoyed the best protection in the country while surveying this talent. That isn't a knock on Leinart. He posted a solid number and deserves praise for taking care of the football.

But Cutler's situation was much different. He had no running game. He had one decent receiver. A freshman, who could possibly develop into an NFL talent, but not likely. He played mostly from behind in the toughest conference in the nation. He faced ridiculous pressure and had a worthless OL. He faced nickel and dime packages because every team knew he was chuckin' the rock. Three of those interceptions came late in games against virtual prevents in desperation time. One was to LaRon Landry, possibly the best DB in next year's draft. Another was to Jonathan Joseph, a prossible first rounder this year. All things considered Cutler's number is more impressive than Leinart's because of the circumstances. Pretty impressive ball management, reading, and decision making. Point is, the gunslinger label is a media myth. He did fumble the ball a little too much for comfort, but that's a product of the sacks and hits more than him slinging the ball around.

Hey Chaos,As I said the last time we discussed Cutler, I applaud the passion you put into defending him. Let me ask you this, what QB with Cutler's collegiate stats/won-loss record has gone on to be an NFL franchise passer? If there is one, I can't think of him.

It's like the fire swamp in the Princess Bride. You only say that because it hasn't been done before.

 

[Jason Wood]

Hijacked for Cutler Apologetics 

Cutler being a "gunslinger" is something that would drive me away from him in a hurry.

Cutler runs in a manner reminiscent of Favre. Rolling to his right and firing (I do mean firing) the ball into tight spaces, he does "look" Favre-like. Favre is a gunslinger; thus, so is Cutler. I disagree. A telling stat is interceptions per attempt. Leinart is rightfully praised for taking care of the football; for not forcing the ball into coverage; for being a good decision maker. Last year his pick per pass ratio was 1 to 54 (solid). Cutler's was 1 to 51. That's 8 in 431 attempts for Leinart and 9 in 462 attempts for Cutler. Pretty much identical results. Cutler is hardly a gunslinger. He does have an uncanny knack for putting the ball into very tight spaces and making very fast and accurate defensive reads. The impression can be that of gunslinging, but the numbers suggest a prudent ballhandler too.That stat deserves a little analysis. Leinart produced the number while playing mostly from a lead. He played behind 5 future NFL lineman, four of them probable studs. He had the benefit of the best receiving RB in memory, who happens to be the most explosive player in the draft and the likely #1 overall pick. Joining him in the backfield was the best power back in the country, who forced defenses to play 8 and 9 in the box while setting a school record for TD runs. Leinart had the benefit of probably the top receiver in the country, another who is NFL quality, and a TE who surprised everyone this post-season by looking better than several graded higher. Every position was filled with excellence, and Leinart enjoyed the best protection in the country while surveying this talent. That isn't a knock on Leinart. He posted a solid number and deserves praise for taking care of the football.

But Cutler's situation was much different. He had no running game. He had one decent receiver. A freshman, who could possibly develop into an NFL talent, but not likely. He played mostly from behind in the toughest conference in the nation. He faced ridiculous pressure and had a worthless OL. He faced nickel and dime packages because every team knew he was chuckin' the rock. Three of those interceptions came late in games against virtual prevents in desperation time. One was to LaRon Landry, possibly the best DB in next year's draft. Another was to Jonathan Joseph, a prossible first rounder this year. All things considered Cutler's number is more impressive than Leinart's because of the circumstances. Pretty impressive ball management, reading, and decision making. Point is, the gunslinger label is a media myth. He did fumble the ball a little too much for comfort, but that's a product of the sacks and hits more than him slinging the ball around.

Hey Chaos,As I said the last time we discussed Cutler, I applaud the passion you put into defending him. Let me ask you this, what QB with Cutler's collegiate stats/won-loss record has gone on to be an NFL franchise passer? If there is one, I can't think of him.

It's like the fire swamp in the Princess Bride. You only say that because it hasn't been done before.

Just an honest question. I've thought a lot about Cutler to understand the hype. For me, he's one of the most inexplicable touts I've seen in years. If this were a year without any true franchise caliber prospects at QB (e.g., last season) or if Cutler was being touted as "that 2nd round guy who could really surprise" I wouldn't think twice about all the discussion, but to me putting him in the same conversation as Young and Leinart seems flawed.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Hijacked for Cutler Apologetics

Cutler being a "gunslinger" is something that would drive me away from him in a hurry.

Cutler runs in a manner reminiscent of Favre. Rolling to his right and firing (I do mean firing) the ball into tight spaces, he does "look" Favre-like. Favre is a gunslinger; thus, so is Cutler. I disagree. A telling stat is interceptions per attempt. Leinart is rightfully praised for taking care of the football; for not forcing the ball into coverage; for being a good decision maker. Last year his pick per pass ratio was 1 to 54 (solid). Cutler's was 1 to 51. That's 8 in 431 attempts for Leinart and 9 in 462 attempts for Cutler. Pretty much identical results. Cutler is hardly a gunslinger. He does have an uncanny knack for putting the ball into very tight spaces and making very fast and accurate defensive reads. The impression can be that of gunslinging, but the numbers suggest a prudent ballhandler too.That stat deserves a little analysis. Leinart produced the number while playing mostly from a lead. He played behind 5 future NFL lineman, four of them probable studs. He had the benefit of the best receiving RB in memory, who happens to be the most explosive player in the draft and the likely #1 overall pick. Joining him in the backfield was the best power back in the country, who forced defenses to play 8 and 9 in the box while setting a school record for TD runs. Leinart had the benefit of probably the top receiver in the country, another who is NFL quality, and a TE who surprised everyone this post-season by looking better than several graded higher. Every position was filled with excellence, and Leinart enjoyed the best protection in the country while surveying this talent. That isn't a knock on Leinart. He posted a solid number and deserves praise for taking care of the football.

But Cutler's situation was much different. He had no running game. He had one decent receiver. A freshman, who could possibly develop into an NFL talent, but not likely. He played mostly from behind in the toughest conference in the nation. He faced ridiculous pressure and had a worthless OL. He faced nickel and dime packages because every team knew he was chuckin' the rock. Three of those interceptions came late in games against virtual prevents in desperation time. One was to LaRon Landry, possibly the best DB in next year's draft. Another was to Jonathan Joseph, a prossible first rounder this year. All things considered Cutler's number is more impressive than Leinart's because of the circumstances. Pretty impressive ball management, reading, and decision making. Point is, the gunslinger label is a media myth. He did fumble the ball a little too much for comfort, but that's a product of the sacks and hits more than him slinging the ball around.

I have to admit that I am not as focused on the QB's (I have Manning and my favorite NFL teams are covered), but I agree with many of the posters that this will be interesting too watch. I may be on an island, but I don't see a top notch NFL QB out of any of them though?

 

[Liquid Tension]

As someone who traded for the 1st pick, I am very happy to see the strength and a 4.35 (avg) is blazing.  However, before we put this guy in Canton, Derrick Blaylock ran a 4.33 and his weight was the same.

To view things the way Bloom writes them, Bush's upside is Marshall Faulk and his downside is probably D. Blaylock.  FWIW, I think Bloom's downside are almost always too high.

Now, if only Houston would trade the pick or DD

Ill admit to being excitable and overly optimistic on "my guys". Just to clarify, Ive said Bush's downside is Westbrook - and I think that is his absolute floor. I know I'm not alone on the extreme optimism on Bush. The *only* questions people can come up with about him are his size (as has already been pointed out, he's still young enough that his body is maturing and he should add 5-10 lbs), his durability at the next level (i don't understand this one as much except as an offshoot of the size question, he didn't any major durability issues I know of, and he's a 100% dedicated worker in unbelievable condition), and the ability to handle a full load because he hasn't done it (he was paired with the best RB between the tackles in the country, I can't really count that against him too much). The criticism that he was surrounded by top players is just misguided. Watching Bush play, its clear right away that his success had a lot more to do with his talent and ability that the O-line paving huge holes or having to face a defense pre-occupied with stopping the pass. Texas was a top notch college defense with at least 4 guys who will play on Sundays, and they "held" him to 177 yards on 19 touches. I'm always open to criticism - I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm happy to discuss which of my downsides are too high in another thread or over PMs.

Bloom, I didn't mean to criticize, just pointing out that if the downside is Westbrook, Bush should not be traded for anyone. I think the downside could always be lower (maybe pessimistic) and this is why I said Blaylock. You just don't know so I felt that in most of your ranking the downside should be lower. I don't remember for sure, but I think you had the downside for L. White was Duckett, but it really should be R. Dayne or someone who ate themselves out of football. Anyway, it is much easier to sit back and watch you do all the work and then punch holes in it

 

[EBF]

As someone who traded for the 1st pick, I am very happy to see the strength and a 4.35 (avg) is blazing.  However, before we put this guy in Canton, Derrick Blaylock ran a 4.33 and his weight was the same.

To view things the way Bloom writes them, Bush's upside is Marshall Faulk and his downside is probably D. Blaylock.  FWIW, I think Bloom's downside are almost always too high.

Now, if only Houston would trade the pick or DD

Ill admit to being excitable and overly optimistic on "my guys". Just to clarify, Ive said Bush's downside is Westbrook - and I think that is his absolute floor. I know I'm not alone on the extreme optimism on Bush. The *only* questions people can come up with about him are his size (as has already been pointed out, he's still young enough that his body is maturing and he should add 5-10 lbs), his durability at the next level (i don't understand this one as much except as an offshoot of the size question, he didn't any major durability issues I know of, and he's a 100% dedicated worker in unbelievable condition), and the ability to handle a full load because he hasn't done it (he was paired with the best RB between the tackles in the country, I can't really count that against him too much). The criticism that he was surrounded by top players is just misguided. Watching Bush play, its clear right away that his success had a lot more to do with his talent and ability that the O-line paving huge holes or having to face a defense pre-occupied with stopping the pass. Texas was a top notch college defense with at least 4 guys who will play on Sundays, and they "held" him to 177 yards on 19 touches. I'm always open to criticism - I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm happy to discuss which of my downsides are too high in another thread or over PMs.

Bloom, I didn't mean to criticize, just pointing out that if the downside is Westbrook, Bush should not be traded for anyone. I think the downside could always be lower (maybe pessimistic) and this is why I said Blaylock. You just don't know so I felt that in most of your ranking the downside should be lower. I don't remember for sure, but I think you had the downside for L. White was Duckett, but it really should be R. Dayne or someone who ate themselves out of football. Anyway, it is much easier to sit back and watch you do all the work and then punch holes in it

The only way Bush scores less FF points than Blaylock in his career is if he steps on a land mine and loses a leg. He's a vastly superior talent.

 

[FUBAR]

As someone who traded for the 1st pick, I am very happy to see the strength and a 4.35 (avg) is blazing. However, before we put this guy in Canton, Derrick Blaylock ran a 4.33 and his weight was the same.

To view things the way Bloom writes them, Bush's upside is Marshall Faulk and his downside is probably D. Blaylock. FWIW, I think Bloom's downside are almost always too high.

Now, if only Houston would trade the pick or DD

Ill admit to being excitable and overly optimistic on "my guys". Just to clarify, Ive said Bush's downside is Westbrook - and I think that is his absolute floor. I know I'm not alone on the extreme optimism on Bush. The *only* questions people can come up with about him are his size (as has already been pointed out, he's still young enough that his body is maturing and he should add 5-10 lbs), his durability at the next level (i don't understand this one as much except as an offshoot of the size question, he didn't any major durability issues I know of, and he's a 100% dedicated worker in unbelievable condition), and the ability to handle a full load because he hasn't done it (he was paired with the best RB between the tackles in the country, I can't really count that against him too much). The criticism that he was surrounded by top players is just misguided. Watching Bush play, its clear right away that his success had a lot more to do with his talent and ability that the O-line paving huge holes or having to face a defense pre-occupied with stopping the pass. Texas was a top notch college defense with at least 4 guys who will play on Sundays, and they "held" him to 177 yards on 19 touches. I'm always open to criticism - I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm happy to discuss which of my downsides are too high in another thread or over PMs.

Bloom, I didn't mean to criticize, just pointing out that if the downside is Westbrook, Bush should not be traded for anyone. I think the downside could always be lower (maybe pessimistic) and this is why I said Blaylock. You just don't know so I felt that in most of your ranking the downside should be lower. I don't remember for sure, but I think you had the downside for L. White was Duckett, but it really should be R. Dayne or someone who ate themselves out of football. Anyway, it is much easier to sit back and watch you do all the work and then punch holes in it

The only way Bush scores less FF points than Blaylock in his career is if he steps on a land mine and loses a leg. He's a vastly superior talent.

Downside for Bush = KiJana Carter.

 

[EBF]

As someone who traded for the 1st pick, I am very happy to see the strength and a 4.35 (avg) is blazing.  However, before we put this guy in Canton, Derrick Blaylock ran a 4.33 and his weight was the same.

To view things the way Bloom writes them, Bush's upside is Marshall Faulk and his downside is probably D. Blaylock.  FWIW, I think Bloom's downside are almost always too high.

Now, if only Houston would trade the pick or DD

Ill admit to being excitable and overly optimistic on "my guys". Just to clarify, Ive said Bush's downside is Westbrook - and I think that is his absolute floor. I know I'm not alone on the extreme optimism on Bush. The *only* questions people can come up with about him are his size (as has already been pointed out, he's still young enough that his body is maturing and he should add 5-10 lbs), his durability at the next level (i don't understand this one as much except as an offshoot of the size question, he didn't any major durability issues I know of, and he's a 100% dedicated worker in unbelievable condition), and the ability to handle a full load because he hasn't done it (he was paired with the best RB between the tackles in the country, I can't really count that against him too much). The criticism that he was surrounded by top players is just misguided. Watching Bush play, its clear right away that his success had a lot more to do with his talent and ability that the O-line paving huge holes or having to face a defense pre-occupied with stopping the pass. Texas was a top notch college defense with at least 4 guys who will play on Sundays, and they "held" him to 177 yards on 19 touches. I'm always open to criticism - I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm happy to discuss which of my downsides are too high in another thread or over PMs.

Bloom, I didn't mean to criticize, just pointing out that if the downside is Westbrook, Bush should not be traded for anyone. I think the downside could always be lower (maybe pessimistic) and this is why I said Blaylock. You just don't know so I felt that in most of your ranking the downside should be lower. I don't remember for sure, but I think you had the downside for L. White was Duckett, but it really should be R. Dayne or someone who ate themselves out of football. Anyway, it is much easier to sit back and watch you do all the work and then punch holes in it

The only way Bush scores less FF points than Blaylock in his career is if he steps on a land mine and loses a leg. He's a vastly superior talent.

Downside for Bush = KiJana Carter.

If you're saying the only way he fails is because of an injury, then I agree.Last year I went out on a bit of a limb and said that Cadillac Williams would not be a bust under any circumstance other than injury. I feel the same way about Bush, except I'm even more confident in his skills than I was in Caddy's.

Bush is a true can't miss prospect. He's mature and he has a good work ethic. He passes the eyeball test on the football field, making "wow" plays left and right. He was immensely productive in college. He has the highest grade of any back in recent years. He has some of the best athletic measurables of any RB in the past five draft classes (40 time, vertical leap, etc).

The only downside with Bush is that he may never be a 20+ carry/game back. Nevertheless, there is zero chance of him not becoming an impact player if he stays healthy. He's the LeBron James of the NFL and he will not be a bust. Period.

 

[cstu]

Hijacked for Cutler Apologetics

Cutler being a "gunslinger" is something that would drive me away from him in a hurry.

Cutler runs in a manner reminiscent of Favre. Rolling to his right and firing (I do mean firing) the ball into tight spaces, he does "look" Favre-like. Favre is a gunslinger; thus, so is Cutler. I disagree. A telling stat is interceptions per attempt. Leinart is rightfully praised for taking care of the football; for not forcing the ball into coverage; for being a good decision maker. Last year his pick per pass ratio was 1 to 54 (solid). Cutler's was 1 to 51. That's 8 in 431 attempts for Leinart and 9 in 462 attempts for Cutler. Pretty much identical results. Cutler is hardly a gunslinger. He does have an uncanny knack for putting the ball into very tight spaces and making very fast and accurate defensive reads. The impression can be that of gunslinging, but the numbers suggest a prudent ballhandler too.That stat deserves a little analysis. Leinart produced the number while playing mostly from a lead. He played behind 5 future NFL lineman, four of them probable studs. He had the benefit of the best receiving RB in memory, who happens to be the most explosive player in the draft and the likely #1 overall pick. Joining him in the backfield was the best power back in the country, who forced defenses to play 8 and 9 in the box while setting a school record for TD runs. Leinart had the benefit of probably the top receiver in the country, another who is NFL quality, and a TE who surprised everyone this post-season by looking better than several graded higher. Every position was filled with excellence, and Leinart enjoyed the best protection in the country while surveying this talent. That isn't a knock on Leinart. He posted a solid number and deserves praise for taking care of the football.

But Cutler's situation was much different. He had no running game. He had one decent receiver. A freshman, who could possibly develop into an NFL talent, but not likely. He played mostly from behind in the toughest conference in the nation. He faced ridiculous pressure and had a worthless OL. He faced nickel and dime packages because every team knew he was chuckin' the rock. Three of those interceptions came late in games against virtual prevents in desperation time. One was to LaRon Landry, possibly the best DB in next year's draft. Another was to Jonathan Joseph, a prossible first rounder this year. All things considered Cutler's number is more impressive than Leinart's because of the circumstances. Pretty impressive ball management, reading, and decision making. Point is, the gunslinger label is a media myth. He did fumble the ball a little too much for comfort, but that's a product of the sacks and hits more than him slinging the ball around.

Hey Chaos,As I said the last time we discussed Cutler, I applaud the passion you put into defending him. Let me ask you this, what QB with Cutler's collegiate stats/won-loss record has gone on to be an NFL franchise passer? If there is one, I can't think of him.

It's like the fire swamp in the Princess Bride. You only say that because it hasn't been done before.

Just an honest question. I've thought a lot about Cutler to understand the hype. For me, he's one of the most inexplicable touts I've seen in years. If this were a year without any true franchise caliber prospects at QB (e.g., last season) or if Cutler was being touted as "that 2nd round guy who could really surprise" I wouldn't think twice about all the discussion, but to me putting him in the same conversation as Young and Leinart seems flawed.

Despite not having the college W/L record of most QB's, he's the prototype that scouts look for: big (6-4, 225), strong arm, accurate and a leader. Then you add in that he's been successful playing under difficult circumstances and with generally less talent than other teams and it's easy to like the guy's chances in the NFL. While Leinart and Young were very successful, they did pretty much what both of them were expected to do. Both USC and Texas had the teams to compete for national titles and it was the QB's job to make sure it happened. They did so you can't fault them for that, but there's a long history of winning QB's in college who couldn't adjust to the difficulty of the NFL, something that I don't think Cutler will have trouble doing.