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Verizon required to give ALL call data to NSA (3 Viewers)

See, THAT is why my avatar is appropriate :)
Yep. As much as Slapdash and I agree that the government is violating the Bill of Rights, we are on completely on opposite ends of the spectrum on the stability of the US dollar keeping its world's reserve currency status.

As for timschochet once again strawmaning my argument into the conspiracy theorists realm again, if I were a conspircary theorist, then Snowden would have to be a pawn of the New World Order's plan to implement a one world currency, if my theory that all this has to do with BRICS is true. The conspiracy theorists believe the dollar will die in such a way that the people won't blame the government for its death. What Snowden is doing could potentially kill its status as the world's reserve currency, and thus the people would blame him for it and not the government.

I don't believe in a New World Order conspiracy. I do believe BRICS is real. I do believe the US Dollar being established as the world's reserve currency by the Bretton Woods agreement in 1944 really happened. I do believe the Bretton Woods system collapsing as a result of the Nixon shock in 1971 really happened. I do believe the world-wide floating fiat experiment we've been running with ever since is real. I believe the demograchic issue of the US Baby Boom is a real risk to that experiement. Many argue it's not, but the demographic issue is real. It's not a conspiracy issue. No one conspired to creat the Baby Boom generation. No one conspired to make it influence the world-wide floating fiat experiment. It's a natural phenomenom. I'm perfectly fine debating it with Slapdash, who disagrees with the amount of risk it presents... but I'm sick and ####### tired of timschochet, who instead of intellectually debating the issue with me like Slapdash does, instead takes the strawman argument route and tries to equate my position to that of a conspiracy theorist. It's fine for someone to mistakenly do it once. But he does it over, and over, and over, and over again... making him a real ****!!!
:lol: When you write something worthy of intellectual debate (you did earlier in the thread, BTW) then I'll debate it with you. I'm not trying to equate your position to that of a conspiracy theorist. I am saying flat out that you ARE a conspiracy theorist. It's no mistake. If the shoe fits...Also, not sure why it makes me what you called me for pointing it out.
Thank you for establishing that your opinion of my position is irrelevant. :hifive:

 
See, THAT is why my avatar is appropriate :)
Yep. As much as Slapdash and I agree that the government is violating the Bill of Rights, we are on completely on opposite ends of the spectrum on the stability of the US dollar keeping its world's reserve currency status.

As for timschochet once again strawmaning my argument into the conspiracy theorists realm again, if I were a conspircary theorist, then Snowden would have to be a pawn of the New World Order's plan to implement a one world currency, if my theory that all this has to do with BRICS is true. The conspiracy theorists believe the dollar will die in such a way that the people won't blame the government for its death. What Snowden is doing could potentially kill its status as the world's reserve currency, and thus the people would blame him for it and not the government.

I don't believe in a New World Order conspiracy. I do believe BRICS is real. I do believe the US Dollar being established as the world's reserve currency by the Bretton Woods agreement in 1944 really happened. I do believe the Bretton Woods system collapsing as a result of the Nixon shock in 1971 really happened. I do believe the world-wide floating fiat experiment we've been running with ever since is real. I believe the demograchic issue of the US Baby Boom is a real risk to that experiement. Many argue it's not, but the demographic issue is real. It's not a conspiracy issue. No one conspired to creat the Baby Boom generation. No one conspired to make it influence the world-wide floating fiat experiment. It's a natural phenomenom. I'm perfectly fine debating it with Slapdash, who disagrees with the amount of risk it presents... but I'm sick and ####### tired of timschochet, who instead of intellectually debating the issue with me like Slapdash does, instead takes the strawman argument route and tries to equate my position to that of a conspiracy theorist. It's fine for someone to mistakenly do it once. But he does it over, and over, and over, and over again... making him a real ****!!!
:lol: When you write something worthy of intellectual debate (you did earlier in the thread, BTW) then I'll debate it with you. I'm not trying to equate your position to that of a conspiracy theorist. I am saying flat out that you ARE a conspiracy theorist. It's no mistake. If the shoe fits...Also, not sure why it makes me what you called me for pointing it out.
Thank you for establishing that your opinion of my position is irrelevant. :hifive:
Your opinion of my opinion is even more irrelevant.

 
See, THAT is why my avatar is appropriate :)
Yep. As much as Slapdash and I agree that the government is violating the Bill of Rights, we are on completely on opposite ends of the spectrum on the stability of the US dollar keeping its world's reserve currency status.

As for timschochet once again strawmaning my argument into the conspiracy theorists realm again, if I were a conspircary theorist, then Snowden would have to be a pawn of the New World Order's plan to implement a one world currency, if my theory that all this has to do with BRICS is true. The conspiracy theorists believe the dollar will die in such a way that the people won't blame the government for its death. What Snowden is doing could potentially kill its status as the world's reserve currency, and thus the people would blame him for it and not the government.

I don't believe in a New World Order conspiracy. I do believe BRICS is real. I do believe the US Dollar being established as the world's reserve currency by the Bretton Woods agreement in 1944 really happened. I do believe the Bretton Woods system collapsing as a result of the Nixon shock in 1971 really happened. I do believe the world-wide floating fiat experiment we've been running with ever since is real. I believe the demograchic issue of the US Baby Boom is a real risk to that experiement. Many argue it's not, but the demographic issue is real. It's not a conspiracy issue. No one conspired to creat the Baby Boom generation. No one conspired to make it influence the world-wide floating fiat experiment. It's a natural phenomenom. I'm perfectly fine debating it with Slapdash, who disagrees with the amount of risk it presents... but I'm sick and ####### tired of timschochet, who instead of intellectually debating the issue with me like Slapdash does, instead takes the strawman argument route and tries to equate my position to that of a conspiracy theorist. It's fine for someone to mistakenly do it once. But he does it over, and over, and over, and over again... making him a real ****!!!
:lol: When you write something worthy of intellectual debate (you did earlier in the thread, BTW) then I'll debate it with you. I'm not trying to equate your position to that of a conspiracy theorist. I am saying flat out that you ARE a conspiracy theorist. It's no mistake. If the shoe fits...Also, not sure why it makes me what you called me for pointing it out.
Thank you for establishing that your opinion of my position is irrelevant. :hifive:
Your opinion of my opinion is even more irrelevant.
It's not your opinion that makes you a ####. It's your behavior that does.

 
Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?

 
Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?
Everytime you call me a conspiracy theorist, I will call you a ####. They are both equally insulting.

You deny strike's claims that you insult people because you don't realize how insulting it is.

Nor do you understand that doing it in response to people's arguments is strawman arguing, while calling you a #### for strawman arguing is not.

 
Meet PRISM’s little brother: Socmint


For the past two years, a tight-lipped and little talked about unit within the Metropolitan Police has been conducting blanket surveillance of British citizens' public social media conversations. Following an unintentional leak and a detailed investigation, we are finally able to see some of the capabilities of this 17-man team—some of which are truly alarming.

The PRISM scandal engulfing US and UK intelligence agencies has blown the debate wide open over what privacy means in the digital age and whether the Internet risks becoming a kind of Stasi 2.0. The extent of the UK's involvement in this type of mass surveillance—which already appears exhaustive—shows just what a potential intelligence goldmine social media data can be.

But the monitoring of our online trail goes beyond the eavesdroppers in GCHQ.

For the past two years, a secretive unit in the Metropolitan Police has been developing the tools for blanket surveillance of the public's social media conversations. Operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week, a staff of 17 officers in the National Domestic Extremism Unit (NDEU) has been scanning the public's tweets, YouTube videos, Facebook profiles, and anything else UK citizens post in the public online sphere.

The intelligence-gathering technique—sometimes known as Social Media Intelligence (Socmint)—has been used in conjunction with an alarming array of sophisticated analytical tools.

"Sentiment analysis" that can determine your mood, "horizon scanning" that tries to pre-empt disorder and crime, facial recognition software that can track down individuals, geo-location that is able to pinpoint your whereabouts, and profiling that can map who you are and what circles you move in. All innovative techniques used in the private sector, and all adapted for law enforcement and surveillance.

As the head of open source intelligence in the Met, Umut Ertogral revealed in May during what he intended to be a private presentation at an Australian security conference [according to a couple of Met sources, conference organizers "forgot" to tell the audience that the talk was off the record]:

"[social media] almost acts like CCTV on the ground for us. Just like the private sector use it for marketing and branding, we've developed something to listen in and see what the public are thinking."

The unit has been building and honing this new style of surveillance ever since the 2011 London riots.

While the NSA's PRISM program collects data that is supposed to be hidden from the outside world, this form of open source intelligence eavesdrops on the data you haven't made private—be it intentional or through ignorance. But several privacy groups and think tanks—including Big Brother Watch, Demos, and Privacy International—have voiced concerns that the Met's use of Socmint lacks the proper legislative oversight to prevent abuses from occurring.

"The issue of legal protection and privacy sits at the heart of all this," explains Carl Miller, research director and co-founder of the Centre for the Analysis of Social Media, which has been leading the research into Socmint. "What we really need is a clear and enabling framework, both legislation and regulation, which can explicitly inform people when and why the police can collect this kind of information."

Current legislation intended to protect the public from abuses, like the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA), were passed at a time when Facebook and Twitter didn't exist.

Surveillance operations often require a ministerial sign-off or permission from a superior, but it is unclear whether targeting of public social media data requires the same level of oversight, as head of research at Privacy International Eric King points out.

"Millions of British citizens share billions of pieces of information about their lives with social networking sites every day," he explains. "While RIPA authorizations are required for most methods of offline surveillance, the police are refusing to come clean about what checks and safeguards—if any—are in place to ensure that surveillance of online activities stays lawful and proportionate."

Challenged with these concerns, the Met still refused to go into detail about the unit but told Wired.co.uk that its use of Socmint was necessary "to protect communities."

"Police have a duty to uphold the law and prevent and detect crime," said a spokesperson from the Specialist Crime and Operations Desk. "Online channels will attract those intent on committing crime, engaged in gang activity, or communicating with rival gangs to fuel tension and threaten violence."

The Met also argued its intelligence was "publicly available material which is readily accessible to all using the Internet." But some are not so convinced this private/public dividing line is quite so clear-cut.

Dr. Daniel Trottier, a researcher in Social and Digital Media at Westminster University, argues that the sophistication of the tools able to analyse this data means we should see our public social media output in a different light.

"The perception with this kind of intelligence is that it's in the public domain, so it's no different from, say, searching through newspaper articles," he elaborates. "But this analysis shows a lack of familiarity with the technology involved and the extent to which it can identify and analyze people.

"There's a psychologist in Cambridge, for example, who showed how with just a few statements from social media profiles, one is able to reasonably determine a user's sexual orientation.

"Now, whether or not these kinds of predictions are accurate is beside the point—it's the fact that the predictions are taking place at all and are taken seriously that's important. If your online conversations flag you up as a potentially troublesome individual, regardless of whether you are or not, you will still end up being blackballed as such."

Some say they have had first-hand experience of this kind of targeted profiling, and it has pushed them to go off the grid almost altogether.

"It's got to the stage where I will only use a public telephone or meet someone face to face if I want to discuss something sensitive," explains Janie Mac, a legal observer for the Occupy LSX movement. "We are all very aware that our accounts are being monitored. We've moved our social network activity to make it more private and we've moved away from traditional social sites for our online meetings and discussions."

It is suspected that protesters and political activists are bearing the brunt of the Met's Socmint surveillance program.

On June 26, The Guardian reported that the very same unit had a "secret database" that had labelled some 9,000 individuals—many from political groups—as "domestic extremists." It adds to the growing number of questionable surveillance tactics used by the police. What is particularly troublesome is that these abuses occurred even with the apparent existence of proper legislation and oversight—something the snooping of social media data currently does not have.

"With anything to do with surveillance, we must look at whether it is necessary, proportionate, and in the public interest," concludes Emma Carr, deputy director of Big Brother Watch.

"In some cases it certainly will be, but there has to be a clear framework that's unambiguous and consistently applied. Only then can the public start to feel comfortable that it's being used proportionately and in their interest."

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/meet-prisms-little-brother-socmint/

 
Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?
1) I haven't really read your exchanges with him.

2) You don't realize how condescending and insulting you are when you use terms like "conspiracy theorist", "paranoid", and other terms which aren't insults like calling someone an ##### but are insults none the less. You insult people's intelligence.

3) I thought you understood. I don't like you or your posting style. It makes intellectual discourse difficult in threads such as this due to your ignorance and naivety. If I ever feel similarly about another poster I'm sure I'll call them out. But as of now you're in a league of your own.

 
Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?
1) I haven't really read your exchanges with him.

2) You don't realize how condescending and insulting you are when you use terms like "conspiracy theorist", "paranoid", and other terms which aren't insults like calling someone an ##### but are insults none the less. You insult people's intelligence.

3) I thought you understood. I don't like you or your posting style. It makes intellectual discourse difficult in threads such as this due to your ignorance and naivety. If I ever feel similarly about another poster I'm sure I'll call them out. But as of now you're in a league of your own.
Oh I do understand. Glad you admitted it however.

 
Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?
1) I haven't really read your exchanges with him.

2) You don't realize how condescending and insulting you are when you use terms like "conspiracy theorist", "paranoid", and other terms which aren't insults like calling someone an ##### but are insults none the less. You insult people's intelligence.

3) I thought you understood. I don't like you or your posting style. It makes intellectual discourse difficult in threads such as this due to your ignorance and naivety. If I ever feel similarly about another poster I'm sure I'll call them out. But as of now you're in a league of your own.
Oh I do understand. Glad you admitted it however.
I've never hid my disdain for you. I don't like people who play such a major role in threads but exhibit the ignorance you do on a regular basis. It's pretty simple really.

:shrug:

 
Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?
1) I haven't really read your exchanges with him.

2) You don't realize how condescending and insulting you are when you use terms like "conspiracy theorist", "paranoid", and other terms which aren't insults like calling someone an ##### but are insults none the less. You insult people's intelligence.

3) I thought you understood. I don't like you or your posting style. It makes intellectual discourse difficult in threads such as this due to your ignorance and naivety. If I ever feel similarly about another poster I'm sure I'll call them out. But as of now you're in a league of your own.
Oh I do understand. Glad you admitted it however.
I've never hid my disdain for you. I don't like people who play such a major role in threads but exhibit the ignorance you do on a regular basis. It's pretty simple really.

:shrug:
Your narrow-mindedness on just about any issue I can think of that you choose to discuss is far worse, and takes much more away from intellectual discussion, than any so-called "ignorance" on my part.

 
Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?
1) I haven't really read your exchanges with him.

2) You don't realize how condescending and insulting you are when you use terms like "conspiracy theorist", "paranoid", and other terms which aren't insults like calling someone an ##### but are insults none the less. You insult people's intelligence.

3) I thought you understood. I don't like you or your posting style. It makes intellectual discourse difficult in threads such as this due to your ignorance and naivety. If I ever feel similarly about another poster I'm sure I'll call them out. But as of now you're in a league of your own.
Oh I do understand. Glad you admitted it however.
I've never hid my disdain for you. I don't like people who play such a major role in threads but exhibit the ignorance you do on a regular basis. It's pretty simple really.

:shrug:
Your narrow-mindedness on just about any issue I can think of that you choose to discuss is far worse, and takes much more away from intellectual discussion, than any so-called "ignorance" on my part.
I'm not narrow minded at all. Point to an example. I can back up my opinions EVERY time. You can't. And I don't go 200 pages arguing with people only to then go "wait, what, they're keeping the data forever???? Well yeah maybe there is a problem".

:lol:

 
Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?
1) I haven't really read your exchanges with him.

2) You don't realize how condescending and insulting you are when you use terms like "conspiracy theorist", "paranoid", and other terms which aren't insults like calling someone an ##### but are insults none the less. You insult people's intelligence.

3) I thought you understood. I don't like you or your posting style. It makes intellectual discourse difficult in threads such as this due to your ignorance and naivety. If I ever feel similarly about another poster I'm sure I'll call them out. But as of now you're in a league of your own.
Or "gun nuts" or "wing nuts" He knows what he's doing. He's just being a hypocrite.
 
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Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?
Everytime you call me a conspiracy theorist, I will call you a ####. They are both equally insulting.

You deny strike's claims that you insult people because you don't realize how insulting it is.

Nor do you understand that doing it in response to people's arguments is strawman arguing, while calling you a #### for strawman arguing is not.
I don't realize it because it isn't. Calling out someone's willingness toward believing conspiracies is not meant as an insult- it is a very specific charge, and I wouldn't know how to rephrase it with the same meaning. It is certainly NOT equally insulting with your word, IMO.

In any case, I did not meant to personally insult you in any way, and I regret that you took it personally, and I apologize for that.

 
Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?
Everytime you call me a conspiracy theorist, I will call you a ####. They are both equally insulting.

You deny strike's claims that you insult people because you don't realize how insulting it is.

Nor do you understand that doing it in response to people's arguments is strawman arguing, while calling you a #### for strawman arguing is not.
I don't realize it because it isn't. Calling out someone's willingness toward believing conspiracies is not meant as an insult- it is a very specific charge, and I wouldn't know how to rephrase it with the same meaning. It is certainly NOT equally insulting with your word, IMO.

In any case, I did not meant to personally insult you in any way, and I regret that you took it personally, and I apologize for that.
Not all theories are conspiracy theories. A conspiracy theory is a theory that people are conspiring. Numerous times you've called people conspiracy theorists, NOT because they presented a theory that people are conspiring, but instead because they've mentioned something that you've heard conspiracy theorists discuss.

In the latest example, I presented a theory to Doug. I specifically presented it as a speculative theory. But because the theory is about BRICS and their impact on the US dollar's worlds reserve currency status, you immediately assume I'm a conspiracy theorist because conpsiracy theorist talk about BRICS and the dollar dying to make way for the New World Order's one world currency.

This is why I hate Alex Jones and people of his like. They take facts, like BRICS, and their desire to replace the dollar with a new reserve currency system, and use them to build a theory about people behind the scenes with evil intent conspiraring to make it happen. Which to be honest is fine, if that's what they want to spend their life doing. The problem is, when anyone else brings up facts that the conspiracy theorist use to build their conspiracy theory, people assume the facts themselves are a conspiracy theory. Now one can't even present the factual existence of BRICS and the publicly communicated desire to replace the US dollar as the world's reserve currency. If they do, just bringing up a fact alone is enough to call them a conspiracy theorist.

Let me ask you tim, why is it NOT a conspiracy theory to wonder if Snowden is sharing with China that they are monitoring Chinese text messages trying to find out what terrorists in China are attempting to do to the US, but it IS a conspiracy theory to wonder if Snowden is sharing with China that they are monitoring Chinese text messages trying to find out what BRICS is attempting to do to the US dollar?

What the #### is the difference?!?! Why is the NSA looking for information to protect the US from terrorism NOT a conspiracy theory, but the NSA looking for information to protect the US dollar from BRICS IS a conspiracy theory?

Why would a country that has engaged in umpteen military wars, killing thousand and thousands, in the attempt to redirect a countries government to our best interests NOT engage in currency wars and trade wars in the attempt to do the same? Why is government killing a moral way to deal with foreign governments, but currency and trade manipulation is OFF LIMITS!!! If anything, our government has a moral obligation to do it through currency and trade violance BEFORE it resorts to military violance.

I don't believe in the New World Order tim. I don't believe in the illuminati tim. I do believe the NSA has the PRISM program. The question is what are they doing with it.

Until the secrecy of what they are doing comes to light, all we can do is theorize. You theories are no more or less valid than my theories. But not every theory that is not yours is a conspiracy theory.

A conspiracy theory is a theory which contains people conspiring. Just because conspriacy theoriest talk about BRICS and the US dollar losing world reserve currency status does NOT mean ANY theory that contains BRICS and the US dollar losing world reserve currency status IS a conspiracy theory. Those things are factual and real issues. They aren't conspiracies. Nothing in my theory presents people conspiring. The government has an obligation to protect its national currency. That is why the Secret Service was created in the 1860's. That is why the Secret Service shares much of that responsibility with the FBI, ATF, and many other government agencies as they were born into existence.

Protecting the US dollar is an imporant national security issue, and BRICS publically expresses it wants to end it's world reserve currency status. It's a national security issue. It's not a conspiracy theory. The NSA PRISM project could certainly help them learn about what BRICS is planning to do, no different than it helps them learn what terrorists are planning to do. My theory is maybe Snowden is following the path of the BRICS countries because he knows they would want to hear about that... because why would hearing about what the NSA knows about terrorism interest those countries at all. My theoriy has nothing to do with people conspiring. Please stop leaping to that conclussion, which is strawman arguing.

I thank you for telling me you did not mean to personally insult me in your second paragraph. But your first paragraph is another insult on your part, because you did it again. If what I explained above doesn't help you understand what you are doing wrong, then just let it go, because I don't know how to help you understand. Your definition of a conspiracy theory seems to be a very wide, all encompassing definition. It's not as big as you think it is, and numerous people have been offended and insulted by your incessent and repeated labeling of their argument as a conspiracy theory because it falls within your wide definition of one.

 
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Hey Strike, earlier in this thread you chastised me for personally insulting people- which I denied, and still do. Since that time, Politician Spock has personally insulted me on several occasions. Why the silence?
Everytime you call me a conspiracy theorist, I will call you a ####. They are both equally insulting.

You deny strike's claims that you insult people because you don't realize how insulting it is.

Nor do you understand that doing it in response to people's arguments is strawman arguing, while calling you a #### for strawman arguing is not.
I don't realize it because it isn't. Calling out someone's willingness toward believing conspiracies is not meant as an insult- it is a very specific charge, and I wouldn't know how to rephrase it with the same meaning. It is certainly NOT equally insulting with your word, IMO.

In any case, I did not meant to personally insult you in any way, and I regret that you took it personally, and I apologize for that.
Not all theories are conspiracy theories. A conspiracy theory is a theory that people are conspiring. Numerous times you've called people conspiracy theorists, NOT because they presented a theory that people are conspiring, but instead because they've mentioned something that you've heard conspiracy theorists discuss.

In the latest example, I presented a theory to Doug. I specifically presented it as a speculative theory. But because the theory is about BRICS and their impact on the US dollar's worlds reserve currency status, you immediately assume I'm a conspiracy theorist because conpsiracy theorist talk about BRICS and the dollar dying to make way for the New World Order's one world currency.

This is why I hate Alex Jones and people of his like. They take facts, like BRICS, and their desire to replace the dollar with a new reserve currency system, and use them to build a theory about people behind the scenes with evil intent conspiraring to make it happen. Which to be honest is fine, if that's what they want to spend their life doing. The problem is, when anyone else brings up facts that the conspiracy theorist use to build their conspiracy theory, people assume the facts themselves are a conspiracy theory. Now one can't even present the factual existence of BRICS and the publicly communicated desire to replace the US dollar as the world's reserve currency. If they do, just bringing up a fact alone is enough to call them a conspiracy theorist.

Let me ask you tim, why is it NOT a conspiracy theory to wonder if Snowden is sharing with China that they are monitoring Chinese text messages trying to find out what terrorists in China are attempting to do to the US, but it IS a conspiracy theory to wonder if Snowden is sharing with China that they are monitoring Chinese text messages trying to find out what BRICS is attempting to do to the US dollar?

What the #### is the difference?!?! Why is the NSA looking for information to protect the US from terrorism NOT a conspiracy theory, but the NSA looking for information to protect the US dollar from BRICS IS a conspiracy theory?

Why would a country that has engaged in umpteen military wars, killing thousand and thousands, in the attempt to redirect a countries government to our best interests NOT engage in currency wars and trade wars in the attempt to do the same? Why is government killing a moral way to deal with foreign governments, but currency and trade manipulation is OFF LIMITS!!! If anything, our government has a moral obligation to do it through currency and trade violance BEFORE it resorts to military violance.

I don't believe in the New World Order tim. I don't believe in the illuminati tim. I do believe the NSA has the PRISM program. The question is what are they doing with it.

Until the secrecy of what they are doing comes to light, all we can do is theorize. You theories are no more or less valid than my theories. But not every theory that is not yours is a conspiracy theory.

A conspiracy theory is a theory which contains people conspiring. Just because conspriacy theoriest talk about BRICS and the US dollar losing world reserve currency status does NOT mean ANY theory that contains BRICS and the US dollar losing world reserve currency status IS a conspiracy theory. Those things are factual and real issues. They aren't conspiracies. Nothing in my theory presents people conspiring. The government has an obligation to protect its national currency. That is why the Secret Service was created in the 1860's. That is why the Secret Service shares much of that responsibility with the FBI, ATF, and many other government agencies as they were born into existence.

Protecting the US dollar is an imporant national security issue, and BRICS publically expresses it wants to end it's world reserve currency status. It's a national security issue. It's not a conspiracy theory. The NSA PRISM project could certainly help them learn about what BRICS is planning to do, no different than it helps them learn what terrorists are planning to do. My theory is maybe Snowden is following the path of the BRICS countries because he knows they would want to hear about that... because why would hearing about what the NSA knows about terrorism interest those countries at all. My theoriy has nothing to do with people conspiring. Please stop leaping to that conclussion, which is strawman arguing.

I thank you for telling me you did not mean to personally insult me in your second paragraph. But your first paragraph is another insult on your part, because you did it again. If what I explained above doesn't help you understand what you are doing wrong, then just let it go, because I don't know how to help you understand. Your definition of a conspiracy theory seems to be a very wide, all encompassing definition. It's not as big as you think it is, and numerous people have been offended and insulted by your incessent and repeated labeling of their argument as a conspiracy theory because it falls within your wide definition of one.
Thanks for clarifying. I may have overgeneralized, and again I apologize for that.

It was not meant to be a strawman argument. My definition of conspiracy theories is a bit broader than yours. But I will accept your statement that you considered it insulting, and I will try not to use the term any longer.

 
The conspiricsy theorists sure don't like being called conspiricy theorists.

Never back down Tim.
No, I am backing down. I appreciate Politician Spock's efforts to disassociate himself from the Alex Joneses of the world, and I shouldn't be grouping them all together.

 
If you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about. After all, laws don't change and the ones on the books are followed by governing officials to the letter.

 
NAANTALI, Finland (AP) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin says that National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden is in the transit zone of a Moscow airport and will not be extradited to the United States.

Looks like Snowden's hero tour will continue on.
The US has no play unless they opt to try to forcibly remove him from a sovereign nation.Our position on Snowden is highly hypocritical so having nations thumb their noses at us is well deserved.
How do you figure this? He's in the position to give China and Russia raw NSA data. Additionally we have returned seven Russian citizens over the past year upon their request, even without an extradition agreement it behooves them to turn Snowden over to U.S. custody. Them refusing to do so tells me he is likely giving them information that could damage national security. This is bigger than your distrust of domestic government programs now.
:shrug: US should have considered this outcome before charging hime with espionage.
You serious?
absolutelyObviously the US got played by the Chinese, but they had a relatively contained situation in Hong Kong, poking a trapped animal, without considering what damage the animal could inflect is naive and foolish. Just because you can charge him with espionage, doesn't mean it was the right time to do so.

Honestly, it feels like the US govt is engaged in amateur hour, while the professional diplomats are sitting around having a laugh at our expense.
That's a fair point, you are arguing the timing which is certainly worth discussing. My point is that if the U.S. charges someone with a crime in absentia and other countries simply ignore it, that sets a bad precedent. So you can commit any number of crimes and then fly to Moscow and you'll be immune from prosecution in the U.S. and can just go about your business. China let him go not wanting to deal with it, Russia seems to embrace the situation to mock us. What's next? Putin steals a Super Bowl ring and proclaims he can kill a man with it?
The BRICS countries would prefer a world without the US dollar as the world's reserve currency.

The PRISM project probably has more applicability to national security by data mining what the BRICS countries are doing that could undermine the US dollar's world's reserve currency status than it has applicability in fighting terrorism.

If PRISM was about terrorism, then Snowden isn't all that valuable to China or Russia, and they would just return him. If however PRISM is about world trade/currency, then Snowden is more valuable to them than being in good standing with extradition agreements with us.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that S&P downgraded nine Hong Kong banks on Monday.... just after Hong Kong let him go.
He has worked in other cells and is alleged to have raw data on other programs. This isn't necessarily about PRISM.

 
NAANTALI, Finland (AP) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin says that National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden is in the transit zone of a Moscow airport and will not be extradited to the United States.

Looks like Snowden's hero tour will continue on.
The US has no play unless they opt to try to forcibly remove him from a sovereign nation.Our position on Snowden is highly hypocritical so having nations thumb their noses at us is well deserved.
How do you figure this? He's in the position to give China and Russia raw NSA data. Additionally we have returned seven Russian citizens over the past year upon their request, even without an extradition agreement it behooves them to turn Snowden over to U.S. custody. Them refusing to do so tells me he is likely giving them information that could damage national security. This is bigger than your distrust of domestic government programs now.
:shrug: US should have considered this outcome before charging hime with espionage.
You serious?
absolutelyObviously the US got played by the Chinese, but they had a relatively contained situation in Hong Kong, poking a trapped animal, without considering what damage the animal could inflect is naive and foolish. Just because you can charge him with espionage, doesn't mean it was the right time to do so.

Honestly, it feels like the US govt is engaged in amateur hour, while the professional diplomats are sitting around having a laugh at our expense.
That's a fair point, you are arguing the timing which is certainly worth discussing. My point is that if the U.S. charges someone with a crime in absentia and other countries simply ignore it, that sets a bad precedent. So you can commit any number of crimes and then fly to Moscow and you'll be immune from prosecution in the U.S. and can just go about your business. China let him go not wanting to deal with it, Russia seems to embrace the situation to mock us. What's next? Putin steals a Super Bowl ring and proclaims he can kill a man with it?
The BRICS countries would prefer a world without the US dollar as the world's reserve currency.

The PRISM project probably has more applicability to national security by data mining what the BRICS countries are doing that could undermine the US dollar's world's reserve currency status than it has applicability in fighting terrorism.

If PRISM was about terrorism, then Snowden isn't all that valuable to China or Russia, and they would just return him. If however PRISM is about world trade/currency, then Snowden is more valuable to them than being in good standing with extradition agreements with us.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that S&P downgraded nine Hong Kong banks on Monday.... just after Hong Kong let him go.
He has worked in other cells and is alleged to have raw data on other programs. This isn't necessarily about PRISM.
Yep.

This is about what Snowden knows the Federal government has on China. I'm pretty sure the Chinese already knew the Federal government is looking for information on terrorists. If that is the knowledge Snowden has about these government programs, he is no more valueable to China than a US criminal possessing a McDonalds cheeseburger.

The argument that what the government is doing is all about fighting terrorism is less and less compelling to me. He must know things that the US government is doing to China that isn't about terrorism in order for him to be of value to China... and to Russia, etc, etc... the question is, what is it that he knows and is sharing with them? I'd love to see the other 80% of his powerpoint presentation that the media has decided not to release for national security concerns. The answer probably lies within.

 
"Ecuador does not accept pressure nor threats from anyone. It does not negotiate with its principles nor does it cave in to economic pressure despite their importance," Alvarado said.

He added that no decision had been made on Snowden's case.

To further poke the United States, Ecuador's Interior Ministry tweeted that it was offering the United States $23 million in annual aid for human rights training. That is the same amount offered by the United States to Ecuador as part of the ATPDEA.
Ecuador poking the US in the eye now it seems.

http://wlrn.org/post/obama-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-has-more-documents

 
"Ecuador does not accept pressure nor threats from anyone. It does not negotiate with its principles nor does it cave in to economic pressure despite their importance," Alvarado said.

He added that no decision had been made on Snowden's case.

To further poke the United States, Ecuador's Interior Ministry tweeted that it was offering the United States $23 million in annual aid for human rights training. That is the same amount offered by the United States to Ecuador as part of the ATPDEA.
Ecuador poking the US in the eye now it seems.

http://wlrn.org/post/obama-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-has-more-documents
Apparently Ecuador is angry over wikileaks documents showing that we suspected their police force of rampant corruption that their President knew about. These guys like Manning and Snowden are doing irreparable damage to our country. These guys aren't heroes, they are corrosive ideologists who are doing way more harm than good. The domestic revelations are one thing, the data and leaks on what we are doing in other nations is absolutely catastrophic. This is just the first example, many more to follow.

 
"Ecuador does not accept pressure nor threats from anyone. It does not negotiate with its principles nor does it cave in to economic pressure despite their importance," Alvarado said.

He added that no decision had been made on Snowden's case.

To further poke the United States, Ecuador's Interior Ministry tweeted that it was offering the United States $23 million in annual aid for human rights training. That is the same amount offered by the United States to Ecuador as part of the ATPDEA.
Ecuador poking the US in the eye now it seems.http://wlrn.org/post/obama-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-has-more-documents
Apparently Ecuador is angry over wikileaks documents showing that we suspected their police force of rampant corruption that their President knew about. These guys like Manning and Snowden are doing irreparable damage to our country. These guys aren't heroes, they are corrosive ideologists who are doing way more harm than good. The domestic revelations are one thing, the data and leaks on what we are doing in other nations is absolutely catastrophic. This is just the first example, many more to follow.
I agree.

At first I just believed that his intent was to reveal that the government was violating the Bill of Rights and then spend the rest of his life hiding from them. I'm not so sure I believe that now.

If he had stayed in Hong Kong, I'd probably keep believing that's all he did... but now that he is traveling around, it only makes sense that he has data that those government's value... and that means it's not just about the government violating the Bill of Rights. It's about more. You are right that this could be absolutely catastrophic. Depends on what he knows.

 
"Ecuador does not accept pressure nor threats from anyone. It does not negotiate with its principles nor does it cave in to economic pressure despite their importance," Alvarado said.

He added that no decision had been made on Snowden's case.

To further poke the United States, Ecuador's Interior Ministry tweeted that it was offering the United States $23 million in annual aid for human rights training. That is the same amount offered by the United States to Ecuador as part of the ATPDEA.
Ecuador poking the US in the eye now it seems.

http://wlrn.org/post/obama-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-has-more-documents
We should accept the money. We need it.

 
"Ecuador does not accept pressure nor threats from anyone. It does not negotiate with its principles nor does it cave in to economic pressure despite their importance," Alvarado said.

He added that no decision had been made on Snowden's case.

To further poke the United States, Ecuador's Interior Ministry tweeted that it was offering the United States $23 million in annual aid for human rights training. That is the same amount offered by the United States to Ecuador as part of the ATPDEA.
Ecuador poking the US in the eye now it seems.http://wlrn.org/post/obama-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-has-more-documents
Apparently Ecuador is angry over wikileaks documents showing that we suspected their police force of rampant corruption that their President knew about. These guys like Manning and Snowden are doing irreparable damage to our country. These guys aren't heroes, they are corrosive ideologists who are doing way more harm than good. The domestic revelations are one thing, the data and leaks on what we are doing in other nations is absolutely catastrophic. This is just the first example, many more to follow.
I agree.

At first I just believed that his intent was to reveal that the government was violating the Bill of Rights and then spend the rest of his life hiding from them. I'm not so sure I believe that now.

If he had stayed in Hong Kong, I'd probably keep believing that's all he did... but now that he is traveling around, it only makes sense that he has data that those government's value... and that means it's not just about the government violating the Bill of Rights. It's about more. You are right that this could be absolutely catastrophic. Depends on what he knows.
:goodposting:

I agree with this. It obviously (except maybe to Tim) doesn't change the premise that what the NSA is doing is wrong and must be stopped.

 
Apparently France said they'd had enough of the spying today too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/world/europe/france-and-germany-piqued-over-spying-scandal.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

A French official reportedly made the following threat:

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries. Now go away before I taunt you a second time!
As a result, 31,453 youtube posters have been flagged by the NSA PRISM project as potential terrorists for posting youtube videos that contained soundbytes of the words above.

 
5 Intriguing New NSA Revelations From Edward Snowden

The United States is bugging EU diplomats, can store 1 billion cellphone calls daily, and more eyebrow-raising disclosures about National Security Agency spying.

—By Dana Liebelson

| Mon Jul. 1, 2013 10:06 AM PDT74.

Former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden is reportedly hunkered down at Moscow's international airport, but over the weekend his disclosures about US surveillance programs continued to send shock waves through the international community. On Friday, the Guardian's Glenn Greenwald gave a sneak preview of a yet-to-be released document detailing the startling number of phone traffic the NSA collects daily. On Saturday, the Washington Post released more top-secret slides showing how the NSA's PRISM program captures information from tech giants. And the German magazine Der Spiegel dropped a bombshell report about US spying on European Union diplomats. As WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange warned on Sunday, "Look, there is no stopping the publishing process at this stage…Great care has been taken to make sure that Mr. Snowden can't be pressured by any state to stop the publication process." Here are five of the most intriguing disclosures to arise from the latest round of stories:

1. The US is bugging EU buildings and has 38 Diplomatic "targets."

Der Spiegel reported that it had seen secret documents, grabbed by Snowden, revealing that the United States had spied on European Union diplomats stationed in Washington, New York, and Brussels. According to Der Spiegel's report, in 2010, the NSA bugged EU buildings in downtown Washington, DC, and also infiltrated the diplomats' computer networks, allowing the agency to access "emails and internal documents." The documents also show that the United States was behind a telephone eavesdropping incident that was detected in Brussels about five years ago. On Sunday, the Guardian released new documents from Snowden revealing that the NSA has listed 38 embassies and missions as "targets." The European Union is still waiting for the United States to confirm or deny the report, but senior EU officials are predictably furious: "If the allegations prove to be true, it would be an extremely serious matter which will have a severe impact on EU-US relations," European Parliament President Martin Schulz said in a statement.

2. The NSA is targeting nearly 120,000 internet users.

One of the big questions surrounding PRISM is how many users are directly targeted by the NSA (as opposed to users whose information is swept up by the agency's information dragnet). A new slide published by the Washington Post sheds some light on this, revealing that as of April 5 there were 117,675 active surveillance targets—who must be foreign nationals who are overseas at the time of collection—in the PRISM database. As the Post notes, this number does not reveal how many other users—including Americans—may have had their information incidentally collected while the NSA was snooping on these targets.

3. The NSA receives live notifications when surveillance targets use email and chat.

The NSA receives "real-time notification of an email-event, such as a login or sent message" as well as "real-time notification of a chat login or logout," according to a slide published by the Post. The significance of this, says Peter Eckersley, technology projects director for the Electronic Frontier Foundation​, is that data transfers between tech companies and the NSA are happening more than once per day, potentially continuously. "You can't have real-time reports if all the data from a company is provided in a single daily [secure file] upload," says Eckersley.

4. The FBI is collecting user information via government equipment installed at tech companies.

One of the new slides published by the Washington Post includes information about how user data flows from tech companies to the US government. According to the Post, information passes from "the FBI's interception unit on the premises of private companies​…to one or more 'customers' at the NSA, CIA or FBI." Bill Binney, a former senior NSA official turned whistleblower, tells Mother Jones that the slides also show that "NSA is the data processor for FBI and CIA, which implies that it's foreign and domestic data being processed."

When Snowden's disclosures first came to light, companies denied providing the US government with backdoor access to their user data, and its unclear precisely how the NSA is collecting information from these companies. "It could mean collection devices on the companies' networks, passive 'drop boxes' on companies' networks, or even fiber optic taps," Eckersley says. "What seems likely from the various reports is that the collection process is quite different at the different companies."

5. The NSA stores 1 billion cellphone calls daily.

At a conference on Friday, Greenwald said that more Snowden disclosures were on the way, and he provided what he called "a little preview" of one of the documents the former NSA contractor leaked. According to Greenwald, it shows that the NSA collects and stores 1 billion cellphone calls every day. "It doesn’t mean they're listening to every call," Greenwald said. "It means they're storing every call and have the capability to listen to them at any time, and it does mean that they're collecting millions upon million upon millions of our phone and email records. It is a globalized system designed to destroy all privacy and what's incredibly menacing about it is it is all taking place in the dark, with no accountability and virtually no safeguards."
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/5-new-revelations-nsa-spying-snowden

 
This business with Evo Morales being forced to land in Vienna is insane.

Snowden really should have just gone somewhere like Venezuela or Bolivia immediately. No way is he ever going to get out of Russia without being in the hands of the US. Unreal.

 
This business with Evo Morales being forced to land in Vienna is insane.

Snowden really should have just gone somewhere like Venezuela or Bolivia immediately. No way is he ever going to get out of Russia without being in the hands of the US. Unreal.
Had no clue who Evo Morales was. For those who don't watch/read a lot of news, he is the President of Bolivia. Here's a link:

LA PAZ, Bolivia — The plane carrying Bolivian President Evo Morales home from Russia was rerouted to Austria on Tuesday after France and Portugal refused to let it cross their airspace because of suspicions that NSA leaker Edward Snowden was on board, the country’s foreign minister said.Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca denied that Snowden was on the plane, which landed in Vienna, and said France and Portugal would have to explain why they canceled authorization for the plane.
 
I was away for the long weekend visiting FL. Here are some things I read that I couldn't post on this #### board from my #### iPad:

July 6, 2013

In Secret, Court Vastly Broadens Powers of N.S.A.By ERIC LICHTBLAU

WASHINGTON — In more than a dozen classified rulings, the nation’s surveillance court has created a secret body of law giving the National Security Agency the power to amass vast collections of data on Americans while pursuing not only terrorism suspects, but also people possibly involved in nuclear proliferation, espionage and cyberattacks, officials say.

The rulings, some nearly 100 pages long, reveal that the court has taken on a much more expansive role by regularly assessing broad constitutional questions and establishing important judicial precedents, with almost no public scrutiny, according to current and former officials familiar with the court’s classified decisions.

The 11-member Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, known as the FISA court, was once mostly focused on approving case-by-case wiretapping orders. But since major changes in legislation and greater judicial oversight of intelligence operations were instituted six years ago, it has quietly become almost a parallel Supreme Court, serving as the ultimate arbiter on surveillance issues and delivering opinions that will most likely shape intelligence practices for years to come, the officials said.

Last month, a former National Security Agency contractor, Edward J. Snowden, leaked a classified order from the FISA court, which authorized the collection of all phone-tracing data from Verizon business customers. But the court’s still-secret decisions go far beyond any single surveillance order, the officials said.

“We’ve seen a growing body of law from the court,” a former intelligence official said. “What you have is a common law that develops where the court is issuing orders involving particular types of surveillance, particular types of targets.”

In one of the court’s most important decisions, the judges have expanded the use in terrorism cases of a legal principle known as the “special needs” doctrine and carved out an exception to the Fourth Amendment’s requirement of a warrant for searches and seizures, the officials said.

The special needs doctrine was originally established in 1989 by the Supreme Court in a ruling allowing the drug testing of railway workers, finding that a minimal intrusion on privacy was justified by the government’s need to combat an overriding public danger. Applying that concept more broadly, the FISA judges have ruled that the N.S.A.’s collection and examination of Americans’ communications data to track possible terrorists does not run afoul of the Fourth Amendment, the officials said.

That legal interpretation is significant, several outside legal experts said, because it uses a relatively narrow area of the law — used to justify airport screenings, for instance, or drunken-driving checkpoints — and applies it much more broadly, in secret, to the wholesale collection of communications in pursuit of terrorism suspects. “It seems like a legal stretch,” William C. Banks, a national security law expert at Syracuse University, said in response to a description of the decision. “It’s another way of tilting the scales toward the government in its access to all this data.”

While President Obama and his intelligence advisers have spoken of the surveillance programs leaked by Mr. Snowden mainly in terms of combating terrorism, the court has also interpreted the law in ways that extend into other national security concerns. In one recent case, for instance, intelligence officials were able to get access to an e-mail attachment sent within the United States because they said they were worried that the e-mail contained a schematic drawing or a diagram possibly connected to Iran’s nuclear program.

In the past, that probably would have required a court warrant because the suspicious e-mail involved American communications. In this case, however, a little-noticed provision in a 2008 law, expanding the definition of “foreign intelligence” to include “weapons of mass destruction,” was used to justify access to the message.

The court’s use of that language has allowed intelligence officials to get wider access to data and communications that they believe may be linked to nuclear proliferation, the officials said. They added that other secret findings had eased access to data on espionage, cyberattacks and other possible threats connected to foreign intelligence.

“The definition of ‘foreign intelligence’ is very broad,” another former intelligence official said in an interview. “An espionage target, a nuclear proliferation target, that all falls within FISA, and the court has signed off on that.”

The official, like a half-dozen other current and former national security officials, discussed the court’s rulings and the general trends they have established on the condition of anonymity because they are classified. Judges on the FISA court refused to comment on the scope and volume of their decisions.

Unlike the Supreme Court, the FISA court hears from only one side in the case — the government — and its findings are almost never made public. A Court of Review is empaneled to hear appeals, but that is known to have happened only a handful of times in the court’s history, and no case has ever been taken to the Supreme Court. In fact, it is not clear in all circumstances whether Internet and phone companies that are turning over the reams of data even have the right to appear before the FISA court.

Created by Congress in 1978 as a check against wiretapping abuses by the government, the court meets in a secure, nondescript room in the federal courthouse in Washington. All of the current 11 judges, who serve seven-year terms, were appointed to the special court by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., and 10 of them were nominated to the bench by Republican presidents. Most hail from districts outside the capital and come in rotating shifts to hear surveillance applications; a single judge signs most surveillance orders, which totaled nearly 1,800 last year. None of the requests from the intelligence agencies was denied, according to the court.

Beyond broader legal rulings, the judges have had to resolve questions about newer types of technology, like video conferencing, and how and when the government can get access to them, the officials said.

The judges have also had to intervene repeatedly when private Internet and phone companies, which provide much of the data to the N.S.A., have raised concerns that the government is overreaching in its demands for records or when the government itself reports that it has inadvertently collected more data than was authorized, the officials said. In such cases, the court has repeatedly ordered the N.S.A. to destroy the Internet or phone data that was improperly collected, the officials said.

The officials said one central concept connects a number of the court’s opinions. The judges have concluded that the mere collection of enormous volumes of “metadata” — facts like the time of phone calls and the numbers dialed, but not the content of conversations — does not violate the Fourth Amendment, as long as the government establishes a valid reason under national security regulations before taking the next step of actually examining the contents of an American’s communications.

This concept is rooted partly in the “special needs” provision the court has embraced. “The basic idea is that it’s O.K. to create this huge pond of data,” a third official said, “but you have to establish a reason to stick your pole in the water and start fishing.”

Under the new procedures passed by Congress in 2008 in the FISA Amendments Act, even the collection of metadata must be considered “relevant” to a terrorism investigation or other intelligence activities.

The court has indicated that while individual pieces of data may not appear “relevant” to a terrorism investigation, the total picture that the bits of data create may in fact be relevant, according to the officials with knowledge of the decisions.

Geoffrey R. Stone, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Chicago, said he was troubled by the idea that the court is creating a significant body of law without hearing from anyone outside the government, forgoing the adversarial system that is a staple of the American justice system. “That whole notion is missing in this process,” he said.

The FISA judges have bristled at criticism that they are a rubber stamp for the government, occasionally speaking out to say they apply rigor in their scrutiny of government requests. Most of the surveillance operations involve the N.S.A., an eavesdropping behemoth that has listening posts around the world. Its role in gathering intelligence within the United States has grown enormously since the Sept. 11 attacks.

Soon after, President George W. Bush, under a secret wiretapping program that circumvented the FISA court, authorized the N.S.A. to collect metadata and in some cases listen in on foreign calls to or from the United States. After a heated debate, the essential elements of the Bush program were put into law by Congress in 2007, but with greater involvement by the FISA court.

Even before the leaks by Mr. Snowden, members of Congress and civil liberties advocates had been pressing for declassifying and publicly releasing court decisions, perhaps in summary form.

Reggie B. Walton, the FISA court’s presiding judge, wrote in March that he recognized the “potential benefit of better informing the public” about the court’s decisions. But, he said, there are “serious obstacles” to doing so because of the potential for misunderstanding caused by omitting classified details.

Gen. Keith B. Alexander, the N.S.A. director, was noncommital when he was pressed at a Senate hearing in June to put out some version of the court’s decisions.

While he pledged to try to make more decisions public, he said, “I don’t want to jeopardize the security of Americans by making a mistake in saying, ‘Yes, we’re going to do all that.’ ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0&pagewanted=print

 
Agreements with private companies protect U.S. access to cables’ data for surveillance

By Craig Timberg and Ellen Nakashima, Published: July 6

The U.S. government had a problem: Spying in the digital age required access to the fiber-optic cables traversing the world’s oceans, carrying torrents of data at the speed of light. And one of the biggest operators of those cables was being sold to an Asian firm, potentially complicating American surveillance efforts.

Enter “Team Telecom.”

In months of private talks, the team of lawyers from the FBI and the departments of Defense, Justice and Homeland Security demanded that the company maintain what amounted to an internal corporate cell of American citizens with government clearances. Among their jobs, documents show, was ensuring that surveillance requests got fulfilled quickly and confidentially.

This “Network Security Agreement,” signed in September 2003 by Global Crossing, became a model for other deals over the past decade as foreign investors increasingly acquired pieces of the world’s telecommunications infrastructure.

The publicly available agreements offer a window into efforts by U.S. officials to safeguard their ability to conduct surveillance through the fiber-optic networks that carry a huge majority of the world’s voice and Internet traffic.

The agreements, whose main purpose is to secure the U.S. telecommunications networks against foreign spying and other actions that could harm national security, do not authorize surveillance. But they ensure that when U.S. government agencies seek access to the massive amounts of data flowing through their networks, the companies have systems in place to provide it securely, say people familiar with the deals.

Negotiating leverage has come from a seemingly mundane government power: the authority of the Federal Communications Commission to approve cable licenses. In deals involving a foreign company, say people familiar with the process, the FCC has held up approval for many months while the squadron of lawyers dubbed Team Telecom developed security agreements that went beyond what’s required by the laws governing electronic eavesdropping.

The security agreement for Global Crossing, whose fiber-optic network connected 27 nations and four continents, required the company to have a “Network Operations Center” on U.S. soil that could be visited by government officials with 30 minutes of warning. Surveillance requests, meanwhile, had to be handled by U.S. citizens screened by the government and sworn to secrecy — in many cases prohibiting information from being shared even with the company’s executives and directors.

“Our telecommunications companies have no real independence in standing up to the requests of government or in revealing data,” said Susan Crawford, a Yeshiva University law professor and former Obama White House official. “This is yet another example where that’s the case.”

The full extent of the National Security Agency’s access to fiber-optic cables remains classified. The Office of the Director of National Intelligence issued a statement saying that legally authorized data collection “has been one of our most important tools for the protection of the nation’s — and our allies’ — security. Our use of these authorities has been properly classified to maximize the potential for effective collection against foreign terrorists and other adversaries.”

It added, “As always, the Intelligence and law enforcement communities will continue to work with all members of Congress to ensure the proper balance of privacy and protection for American citizens.”

Collecting information

Documents obtained by The Washington Post and Britain’s Guardian newspaper in recent weeks make clear how the revolution in information technology sparked a revolution in surveillance, allowing the U.S. government and its allies to monitor potential threats with a reach impossible only a few years earlier.

Yet any access to fiber-optic cables allows for possible privacy intrusions into Americans’ personal communications, civil libertarians say.

As people worldwide chat, browse and post images through online services, much of the information flows within the technological reach of U.S. surveillance. Though laws, procedural rules and internal policies limit how that information can be collected and used, the data from billions of devices worldwide flow through Internet choke points that the United States and its allies are capable of monitoring.

This broad-based surveillance of fiber-optic networks runs parallel to the NSA’s PRISM program, which allows analysts to access data from nine major Internet companies, including Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL and Apple, according to classified NSA PowerPoint slides. (The companies have said the collection is legal and limited.)

One NSA slide titled, “Two Types of Collection,” shows both PRISM and a separate effort labeled “Upstream” and lists four code names: Fairview, Stormbrew, Blarney and Oakstar. A diagram superimposed on a crude map of undersea cable networks describes the Upstream program as collecting “communications on fiber cables and infrastructure as data flows past.”

The slide has yellow arrows pointing to both Upstream and PRISM and says, “You Should Use Both.” It also has a header saying “FAA 702 Operations,” a reference to a section of the amended Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that governs surveillance of foreign targets related to suspected terrorism and other foreign intelligence.

Under that provision, the government may serve a court order on a company compelling it to reach into its networks for data on multiple targets who are foreigners reasonably believed to be overseas. At an Internet gateway, the government may specify a number of e-mail addresses of foreigners to be targeted without the court signing off on each one.

When the NSA is collecting the communications of a foreign, overseas target who is speaking or e-mailing with an American, that American’s e-mail or phone call is considered to be “incidentally” collected. It is considered “inadvertently” collected if the target actually turns out to be an American, according to program rules and people familiar with them. The extent of incidental and inadvertent collection has not been disclosed, leading some lawmakers to demand disclosure of estimates of how many Americans’ communications have been gathered. No senior intelligence officials have answered that question publicly.

Using software that scans traffic and “sniffs out” the targeted e-mail address, the company can pull out e-mail traffic automatically to turn over to the government, according to several former government officials and industry experts.

It is unclear how effective that approach is compared with collecting from a “downstream” tech company such as Google or Facebook, but the existence of separate programs collecting data from both technology companies and telecommunications systems underscores the reach of government intelligence agencies.

“People need to realize that there are many ways for the government to get vast amounts of e-mail,” said Chris Soghoian, a technology expert with the American Civil Liberties Union.

Controlling the data flow

The drive for new intelligence sources after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks relied on a key insight: American companies controlled most of the Internet’s essential pipes, giving ample opportunities to tap the torrents of data flowing by. Even terrorists bent on destruction of the United States, it turned out, talked to each other on Web-based programs such as Microsoft’s Hotmail.

Yet even data not handled by U.S.-based companies generally flowed across parts of the American telecommunications infrastructure. Most important were the fiber-optic cables that largely have replaced the copper telephone wires and the satellite and microwave transmissions that, in an earlier era, were the most important targets for government surveillance.

Fiber-optic cables, many of which lie along the ocean floor, provide higher-quality transmission and greater capacity than earlier technology, with the latest able to carry thousands of gigabits per second.

The world’s hundreds of undersea cables now carry 99 percent of all intercontinental data, a category that includes most international phone calls, as well, says TeleGeography, a global research firm.

The fiber-optic networks have become a rich source of data for intelligence agencies. The Guardian newspaper reported last month that the Government Communications Headquarters, the British equivalent of the NSA, taps and stores data flowing through the fiber-optic cables touching that nation, a major transit point for data between Europe and the Americas. That program, code-named Tempora, shares data with the NSA, the newspaper said.

Tapping undersea transmission cables had been a key U.S. surveillance tactic for decades, dating back to the era when copper lines carrying sensitive telephone communications could be accessed by listening devices divers could place on the outside of a cable’s housing, said naval historian Norman Polmar, author of “Spy Book: The Encyclopedia of Espionage.”

“The U.S. has had four submarines that have been outfitted for these special missions,” he said.

But the fiber-optic lines — each no thicker than a quarter — were far more difficult to tap successfully than earlier generations of undersea technology, and interception operations ran the risk of alerting cable operators that their network had been breached.

It’s much easier to collect information from any of dozens of cable landing stations around the world — where data transmissions are sorted into separate streams — or in some cases from network operations centers that oversee the entire system, say those familiar with the technology who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive intelligence matters.

Expanding powers

In the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, the NSA said its collection of communications inside the United States was constrained by statute, according to a draft report by the agency’s inspector general in 2009, which was obtained by The Post and the Guardian. The NSA had legal authority to conduct electronic surveillance on foreigners overseas, but the agency was barred from collecting such information on cables as it flowed into and through the United States without individual warrants for each target.

“By 2001, Internet communications were used worldwide, underseas cables carried huge volumes of communications, and a large amount of the world’s communications passed through the United States,” the report said. “Because of language used in the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act in 1978, NSA was required to obtain court orders to target e-mail accounts used by non-U.S. persons outside the United States if it intended to intercept the communications at a webmail service within the United States. Large numbers of terrorists were using such accounts in 2001.”

As a result, after White House and CIA officials consulted with the NSA director, President George W. Bush, through a presidential order, expanded the NSA’s legal authority to collect communications inside the United States. The President’s Surveillance Program, the report said, “significantly increased [NSA’s] access to transiting foreign communications.”

Gen. Michael Hayden, then the NSA director, described that information as “the real gold of the program” that led to the identification of threats within the United States, according to the inspector general’s report.

Elements of the President’s Surveillance Program became public in 2005, when the New York Times reported the government’s ability to intercept e-mail and phone call content inside the United States without court warrants, sparking controversy. The FISA court began oversight of those program elements in 2007.

As these debates were playing out within the government, Team Telecom was making certain that surveillance capacity was not undermined by rising foreign ownership of the fiber-optic cables that the NSA was using.

The Global Crossing deal created particular concerns. The company had laid an extensive network of undersea cables in the world, but it went bankrupt in 2002 after struggling to handle more than $12 billion in debt.

Two companies, one from Singapore and a second from Hong Kong, struck a deal to buy a majority stake in Global Crossing, but U.S. government lawyers immediately objected as part of routine review of foreign investment into critical U.S. infrastructure.

President Gerald Ford in 1975 had created an interagency group — the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, or CFIUS — to review deals that might harm U.S. national security. Team Telecom grew out of that review process. Those executive branch powers were expanded several times over the decades and became even more urgent after the Sept. 11 attacks, when the Defense Department became an important player in discussions with telecommunications companies.

The Hong Kong company soon withdrew from the Global Crossing deal, under pressure from Team Telecom, which was worried that the Chinese government might gain access to U.S. surveillance requests and infrastructure, according to people familiar with the negotiations.

Singapore Technologies Telemedia eventually agreed to a slate of concessions, including allowing half of the board of directors of a new subsidiary managing the undersea cable network to consist of American citizens with security clearances. They would oversee a head of network operations, a head of global security, a general counsel and a human resources officer — all of whom also would be U.S. citizens with security clearances. The FBI and the departments of Defense, Justice and Homeland Security had the power to object to any appointments to those jobs or to the directors who had to be U.S. citizens.

U.S. law already required that telecommunications companies doing business in the United States comply with surveillance requests, both domestic and international. But the security agreement established the systems to ensure that compliance and to make sure foreign governments would not gain visibility into the working of American telecommunications systems — or surveillance systems, said Andrew D. Lipman, a telecommunications lawyer who has represented Global Crossing and other firms in negotiating such deals.

“These Network Security Agreements flesh out the details,” he said.

Lipman, a partner with Bingham McCutchen, based in Washington, said the talks with Team Telecom typically involve little give and take. “It’s like negotiating with the Motor Vehicle Department,” he said.

Singapore Technologies Telemedia sold Global Crossing in 2011 to Level 3 Communications, a company based in Colorado. But the Singaporean company maintained a minority ownership stake, helping trigger a new round of review by Team Telecom and a new Network Security Agreement that added several new conditions.

A spokesman for Level 3 Communications declined to comment for this article.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/agreements-with-private-companies-protect-us-access-to-cables-data-for-surveillance/2013/07/06/aa5d017a-df77-11e2-b2d4-ea6d8f477a01_print.html

 
How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

Microsoft has collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption, according to top-secret documents obtained by the Guardian.

The files provided by Edward Snowden illustrate the scale of co-operation between Silicon Valley and the intelligence agencies over the last three years. They also shed new light on the workings of the top-secret Prism program, which was disclosed by the Guardian and the Washington Post last month.

The documents show that:

• Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new Outlook.com portal;

• The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on Outlook.com, including Hotmail;

• The company worked with the FBI this year to allow the NSA easier access via Prism to its cloud storage service SkyDrive, which now has more than 250 million users worldwide;

• Microsoft also worked with the FBI's Data Intercept Unit to "understand" potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create email aliases;

• In July last year, nine months after Microsoft bought Skype, the NSA boasted that a new capability had tripled the amount of Skype video calls being collected through Prism;

• Material collected through Prism is routinely shared with the FBI and CIA, with one NSA document describing the program as a "team sport".

The latest NSA revelations further expose the tensions between Silicon Valley and the Obama administration. All the major tech firms are lobbying the government to allow them to disclose more fully the extent and nature of their co-operation with the NSA to meet their customers' privacy concerns. Privately, tech executives are at pains to distance themselves from claims of collaboration and teamwork given by the NSA documents, and insist the process is driven by legal compulsion.

In a statement, Microsoft said: "When we upgrade or update products we aren't absolved from the need to comply with existing or future lawful demands." The company reiterated its argument that it provides customer data "only in response to government demands and we only ever comply with orders for requests about specific accounts or identifiers".

In June, the Guardian revealed that the NSA claimed to have "direct access" through the Prism program to the systems of many major internet companies, including Microsoft, Skype, Apple, Google, Facebook and Yahoo.

Blanket orders from the secret surveillance court allow these communications to be collected without an individual warrant if the NSA operative has a 51% belief that the target is not a US citizen and is not on US soil at the time. Targeting US citizens does require an individual warrant, but the NSA is able to collect Americans' communications without a warrant if the target is a foreign national located overseas.

Since Prism's existence became public, Microsoft and the other companies listed on the NSA documents as providers have denied all knowledge of the program and insisted that the intelligence agencies do not have back doors into their systems.

Microsoft's latest marketing campaign, launched in April, emphasizes its commitment to privacy with the slogan: "Your privacy is our priority."

Similarly, Skype's privacy policy states: "Skype is committed to respecting your privacy and the confidentiality of your personal data, traffic data and communications content."

But internal NSA newsletters, marked top secret, suggest the co-operation between the intelligence community and the companies is deep and ongoing.

The latest documents come from the NSA's Special Source Operations (SSO) division, described by Snowden as the "crown jewel" of the agency. It is responsible for all programs aimed at US communications systems through corporate partnerships such as Prism.

The files show that the NSA became concerned about the interception of encrypted chats on Microsoft's Outlook.com portal from the moment the company began testing the service in July last year.

Within five months, the documents explain, Microsoft and the FBI had come up with a solution that allowed the NSA to circumvent encryption on Outlook.com chats

A newsletter entry dated 26 December 2012 states: "MS [Microsoft], working with the FBI, developed a surveillance capability to deal" with the issue. "These solutions were successfully tested and went live 12 Dec 2012."

Two months later, in February this year, Microsoft officially launched the Outlook.com portal.

Another newsletter entry stated that NSA already had pre-encryption access to Outlook email. "For Prism collection against Hotmail, Live, and Outlook.com emails will be unaffected because Prism collects this data prior to encryption."

Microsoft's co-operation was not limited to Outlook.com. An entry dated 8 April 2013 describes how the company worked "for many months" with the FBI – which acts as the liaison between the intelligence agencies and Silicon Valley on Prism – to allow Prism access without separate authorization to its cloud storage service SkyDrive.

The document describes how this access "means that analysts will no longer have to make a special request to SSO for this – a process step that many analysts may not have known about".

The NSA explained that "this new capability will result in a much more complete and timely collection response". It continued: "This success is the result of the FBI working for many months with Microsoft to get this tasking and collection solution established."

A separate entry identified another area for collaboration. "The FBI Data Intercept Technology Unit (DITU) team is working with Microsoft to understand an additional feature in Outlook.com which allows users to create email aliases, which may affect our tasking processes."

The NSA has devoted substantial efforts in the last two years to work with Microsoft to ensure increased access to Skype, which has an estimated 663 million global users.

One document boasts that Prism monitoring of Skype video production has roughly tripled since a new capability was added on 14 July 2012. "The audio portions of these sessions have been processed correctly all along, but without the accompanying video. Now, analysts will have the complete 'picture'," it says.

Eight months before being bought by Microsoft, Skype joined the Prism program in February 2011.

According to the NSA documents, work had begun on smoothly integrating Skype into Prism in November 2010, but it was not until 4 February 2011 that the company was served with a directive to comply signed by the attorney general.

The NSA was able to start tasking Skype communications the following day, and collection began on 6 February. "Feedback indicated that a collected Skype call was very clear and the metadata looked complete," the document stated, praising the co-operation between NSA teams and the FBI. "Collaborative teamwork was the key to the successful addition of another provider to the Prism system."

ACLU technology expert Chris Soghoian said the revelations would surprise many Skype users. "In the past, Skype made affirmative promises to users about their inability to perform wiretaps," he said. "It's hard to square Microsoft's secret collaboration with the NSA with its high-profile efforts to compete on privacy with Google."

The information the NSA collects from Prism is routinely shared with both the FBI and CIA. A 3 August 2012 newsletter describes how the NSA has recently expanded sharing with the other two agencies.

The NSA, the entry reveals, has even automated the sharing of aspects of Prism, using software that "enables our partners to see which selectors [search terms] the National Security Agency has tasked to Prism".

The document continues: "The FBI and CIA then can request a copy of Prism collection of any selector…" As a result, the author notes: "these two activities underscore the point that Prism is a team sport!"

In its statement to the Guardian, Microsoft said:

We have clear principles which guide the response across our entire company to government demands for customer information for both law enforcement and national security issues. First, we take our commitments to our customers and to compliance with applicable law very seriously, so we provide customer data only in response to legal processes.

Second, our compliance team examines all demands very closely, and we reject them if we believe they aren't valid. Third, we only ever comply with orders about specific accounts or identifiers, and we would not respond to the kind of blanket orders discussed in the press over the past few weeks, as the volumes documented in our most recent disclosure clearly illustrate.

Finally when we upgrade or update products legal obligations may in some circumstances require that we maintain the ability to provide information in response to a law enforcement or national security request. There are aspects of this debate that we wish we were able to discuss more freely. That's why we've argued for additional transparency that would help everyone understand and debate these important issues.

In a joint statement, Shawn Turner, spokesman for the director of National Intelligence, and Judith Emmel, spokeswoman for the NSA, said:

The articles describe court-ordered surveillance – and a US company's efforts to comply with these legally mandated requirements. The US operates its programs under a strict oversight regime, with careful monitoring by the courts, Congress and the Director of National Intelligence. Not all countries have equivalent oversight requirements to protect civil liberties and privacy.

They added: "In practice, US companies put energy, focus and commitment into consistently protecting the privacy of their customers around the world, while meeting their obligations under the laws of the US and other countries in which they operate."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data/print

 
As an aside during testimony on Capitol Hill today, a National Security Agency representative rather casually indicated that the government looks at data from a universe of far, far more people than previously indicated.

Chris Inglis, the agency's deputy director, was one of several government representatives—including from the FBI and the office of the Director of National Intelligence—testifying before the House Judiciary Committee this morning. Most of the testimony largely echoed previous testimony by the agencies on the topic of the government's surveillance, including a retread of the same offered examples for how the Patriot Act and Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act had stopped terror events.

But Inglis' statement was new. Analysts look "two or three hops" from terror suspects when evaluating terror activity, Inglis revealed. Previously, the limit of how surveillance was extended had been described as two hops. This meant that if the NSA were following a phone metadata or web trail from a terror suspect, it could also look at the calls from the people that suspect has spoken with—one hop. And then, the calls that second person had also spoken with—two hops. Terror suspect to person two to person three. Two hops. And now: A third hop.

Think of it this way. Let's say the government suspects you are a terrorist and it has access to your Facebook account. If you're an American citizen, it can't do that currently (with certain exceptions)—but for the sake of argument. So all of your friends, that's one hop. Your friends' friends, whether you know them or not—two hops. Your friends' friends' friends, whoever they happen to be, are that third hop. That's a massive group of people that the NSA apparently considers fair game.

For a sense of scale, researchers at the University of Milan found in 2011 that everyone on the Internet was, on average, 4.74 steps away from anyone else. The NSA explores relationships up to three of those steps. (See our conversation with the ACLU's Alex Abdo on this.)

Inglis' admission didn't register among the members of Congress present, but immediately resonated with privacy advocates online.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/07/nsa-admits-it-analyzes-more-peoples-data-previously-revealed/67287/

 
Slapdash said:
It really is amazing how large the scope of this stuff is yet how quickly the media dropped coverage.
its hard to fit this in with the 24-hour wall to wall Zimmerman coverage

 

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