Vick = Selfish (1 Viewer)

[KevT]

A lot was made of Manning being selfish for his contract, but I haven't seen anything about how Vick is selfish for screwing the Falcons this year in a free agency that is loaded with talent.

Got this link from the falcons message board.

http://www.falcfans.com/features/2005cap.html

25 million is just unreal.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I wonder why people think Vick is the whole team

 

[Ditka is God]

A few weeks back the AJC had an article on this. Basically, it appears the Falcons gambled that the CBA would be extended by 3/2, and lost.Vick's contract foils salary capMatt Winkeljohn - StaffSaturday, February 19, 2005Last week in Hawaii, Falcons quarterback Michael Vick was asked after a Pro Bowl practice what he thought of the prospect of Vikings wide receiver Randy Moss being traded to Atlanta.Part of Vick's answer --- "It's about what we can afford," in USA Today's Sports Weekly --- leads to something far more relevant, like what Atlanta will be able to do in free agency, which begins March 2.The Falcons' salary cap future, whose calculation is extremely convoluted, is sticky, and the contract Vick signed in December is much of the reason.Some reports have Atlanta $15 million or more over the NFL's projected 2005 cap, although team officials say that's misleading. The league is counting the entire $22.5 million bonus owed Vick next month against this year's cap.Team officials say that the Falcons will exercise a clause in the contract allowing them to "prorate" --- or spread out the effect on the cap --- that sum over the next five seasons, seven if the league's Collective Bargaining Agreement is extended before the first day of free agency.When Vick's deal was finalized, Atlanta's front office was hopeful the CBA would be extended by now. If it doesn't happen by March 2, and there are no signs of an imminent extension, that could cost the Falcons millions of dollars more in cap space for years to come --- the difference in spreading the $22.5 million over five years instead of seven.Team president/general manager Rich McKay was unavailable for comment and did not respond to messages left on his cell phone.Execution of the clause in Vick's contract should drop his cap charge by at least $18 million this year. How much space Atlanta will take into free agency will be determined as the team restructures expensive contracts, reduces some salaries or cuts expensive or under-performing players.Patrick Kerney, Keith Brooking, Warrick Dunn, Travis Hall, Todd Weiner, Brady Smith, Peerless Price, Ed Jasper, Cory Hall, Kynan Forney, Eric Beverly, Jason Webster and Chris Draft have salaries of $1.2 million or more and might be considered for one of these moves.

 

[KevT]

The "good" news for us Falcons' fans is Vicks cap hit goes from 25 million this year to 11 million next year. The bad news is Price is 6+ million, Dunn is 5.5 mil, and a handfull of other guys over 4, plus whatever hit they take for cutting Jasper and the 2 Halls.

http://www.falcfans.com/features/2006cap.html

Looks like the cap situation doesn't get much if any better next year.

 

[KevT]

mercy bump

 

[Prime]

You are preaching to the chior.

 

[Chaka]

fwiw John Clayton is reporting the Falcons to be 4.3 million under the cap for this season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...john&id=2004973

 

[KevT]

fwiw John Clayton is reporting the Falcons to be 4.3 million under the cap for this season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...john&id=2004973

The chart was last updated on 2/12/05, so after many cuts they were under the cap by 4.3 million.After signing Rossum and the kicker, they don't have much left.

 

[Chaka]

Fair enough, you clearly follow the Falcons more closely than I do.

 

[-OZ-]

Maybe I don't get it, but what do the Falcons really need - except for their QB to start acting like one?O-line - RBs - Receivers - But there is some talent with Crumpler and Jenkins, Price might be a good #2 againD-Line - LBs - Brooking at least, D-will has talent, Draft is okSecondary - a healthy Hall, makes it decentSpecial teams - Seriously, the team is extremely strong, if Vick learns to pass, the Falcons will make the run for quite a few years. The difference between Manning and Vick is simply that Indy needs to improve on D, which will cost $$$, Atlanta's D is already pretty dang good.- No, I'm not a Falcons fan - though I do like some of their players' potential.

 

[Da Guru]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

 

[GOD HATES US ALL]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

Because with him they are a playoff team. Without him they are a 4 win team

 

[SuperJohn96]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

The cold reality is that Vick more important to putting people in the seats every game than he is to helping the team win or to getting the offense going.They spend this kind of money on him because he fills the stadium. This is also why people will pay Randy Moss that kind of money.

It IS a business... :(

 

[-OZ-]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

The cold reality is that Vick more important to putting people in the seats every game than he is to helping the team win or to getting the offense going.They spend this kind of money on him because he fills the stadium. This is also why people will pay Randy Moss that kind of money.

It IS a business... :(

Or PeytonOr LT

Or Favre

etc.

Or trade for Eli

teams pay players with two things in mind: winning and filling seats.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

The cold reality is that Vick more important to putting people in the seats every game than he is to helping the team win or to getting the offense going.They spend this kind of money on him because he fills the stadium. This is also why people will pay Randy Moss that kind of money.

It IS a business... :(

Or PeytonOr LT

Or Favre

etc.

Or trade for Eli

teams pay players with two things in mind: winning and filling seats.

And last year the Falcons did both.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

Because with him they are a playoff team. Without him they are a 4 win team

You are not serious in saying this team is a 4 win team without M.Vick in the line up. People are disregarding the fact that the reason the team did so poorly when M.Vick was not playing is because they had D.Johnson (a terrible QB) and M.Schaubb (a rookie) as their back up Qb's.

M.Vick makes them better but there team would probably be a playoff bound with many starting QB's in this league. I would say you can take any of the top 15 QB's in the league and Atl would have a shot at the playoffs this year or last year.

Their all around team is pretty darn good, and yes M.Vick is a special player but I think the team could just as easily make the playoffs with guys like Bulger, Hasselback, and even worst QB's like A.Brooks etc.

Their offense was not even that good this year. M. Vick gets way to much credit for a pretty good all around football team.

 

[Sinrman]

I wonder why people think Vick is the whole team

Because he IS the team. He is their franchise. He brings MANY millions of dollars into Atlanta (the team via tickets and such, vendors, etc.) He brings excitement to this fair-weather town (I live right outside ATL). Though I think he has a long ways to go before he could reach his full potential, even I recognize that this team is (too) dependent on him. Without him, they really are a mediocre team. He just brings a lot to the team in general. It's hard to explain...

 

[joffer]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

The cold reality is that Vick more important to putting people in the seats every game than he is to helping the team win or to getting the offense going.

:SIGH:They were one game away from the Super Bowl

 

[10993]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

Because with him they are a playoff team. Without him they are a 4 win team

You are not serious in saying this team is a 4 win team without M.Vick in the line up. People are disregarding the fact that the reason the team did so poorly when M.Vick was not playing is because they had D.Johnson (a terrible QB) and M.Schaubb (a rookie) as their back up Qb's.

M.Vick makes them better but there team would probably be a playoff bound with many starting QB's in this league. I would say you can take any of the top 15 QB's in the league and Atl would have a shot at the playoffs this year or last year.

Their all around team is pretty darn good, and yes M.Vick is a special player but I think the team could just as easily make the playoffs with guys like Bulger, Hasselback, and even worst QB's like A.Brooks etc.

Their offense was not even that good this year. M. Vick gets way to much credit for a pretty good all around football team.

You people that keep saying crap like this need to learn a little bit about football. Why do you think Atlanta's running attack was so great this year? Vick, Vick, and more Vick. I'll try to break it into an example for you. Remember that huge run Warrick Dunn broke against the Rams to break the playoff game wide open? Do you remember why it happened? They were sitting a spy on the outside corner to guard against the bootleg, so when Dunn slipped through the line, the spy wasn't able to flash to the middle on the cutback, and Dunn was home free. You guys simply don't understand how much defensive schemes have to change to defend Michael Vick--and if they don't change, he waltzes 25 yds. every play on a bootleg. Vick=Wins and that's why he gets paid.

Edit: He's also got a nasty arm, and Steve Young (who knows a thing or two about WCO QB's) says that Vick is maturing in the WCO as fast as he could imagine, and faster than McNabb did.

 

[fatgirlsrock]

Imagine that, KevT starting another thread hating on Vick. Most teams would love to have a guy that singlehandedly makes their team a superbowl contender.The age of FF has really made some people not understand the actual game of football.

 

[KevT]

Imagine that, KevT starting another thread hating on Vick.

Most teams would love to have a guy that singlehandedly makes their team a superbowl contender.

The age of FF has really made some people not understand the actual game of football.

You're right I don't like Vick, because I believe that he's hurting the team more than helping it. I would love to see Vick become the QB that a lot of people think he's capable of. I would love to see Vick match Kordell Stewart's best season. I would love to see Vick actually do what people think he is doing, which is carry the team. Right now the Defense is carrying the team. The reason the Falcons' couldn't win a couple of years ago is because they had Doug Johnson, the third QB on the Titans and Kurt Kittner, who I don't think is even in the league anymore. Put any mediocre QB in place and I think you'll see similiar results and maybe better results in the playoffs. Don't bring up that game in Green Bay, that had little to do with Michael Vick, who I don't think totaled a 100 yards, but more to do with the Packers injuries and the Falcons' defense.

They had to release Ed Jasper this year, which really hurts their defensive line, they also had to release a couple of other components of their defense. They had a cake schedule last year, they do not have a cake schedule this coming year.

I'm going to say it, the Falcon's will finish below .500 next year if Vick stays healthy for more than 10 games. I know someone will try and be cute and edit the line above to say what they want and post "fixed." But please leave my name out of it.

Tough games

Carolina x 2 as usual - very good offseason

TB x 2 as usual

Jets

Patriots

Vikings

Buffalo

Miami- their defense will give Vick problems

Philly - with TO it won't even be close

Saints x 2 as usual

Seattle - shouldn't have problem scoring against them, but Vick couldn't do anything against the Chiefs weak secondary last year... pathetic

Easier games

Detroit

Chicago

Call me a Vick hater if you want, although he is my favorite player to watch. I'm wanting the Falcons to go to the Super Bowl again (Thank you Chandler and Jamal), and win and I really don't see Vick being able to perform well enough against very good defensive teams.

 

[dpeease]

Imagine that, KevT starting another thread hating on Vick.

Most teams would love to have a guy that singlehandedly makes their team a superbowl contender.

The age of FF has really made some people not understand the actual game of football.

You're right I don't like Vick, because I believe that he's hurting the team more than helping it. I would love to see Vick become the QB that a lot of people think he's capable of. I would love to see Vick match Kordell Stewart's best season. I would love to see Vick actually do what people think he is doing, which is carry the team. Right now the Defense is carrying the team. The reason the Falcons' couldn't win a couple of years ago is because they had Doug Johnson, the third QB on the Titans and Kurt Kittner, who I don't think is even in the league anymore. Put any mediocre QB in place and I think you'll see similiar results and maybe better results in the playoffs. Don't bring up that game in Green Bay, that had little to do with Michael Vick, who I don't think totaled a 100 yards, but more to do with the Packers injuries and the Falcons' defense.

They had to release Ed Jasper this year, which really hurts their defensive line, they also had to release a couple of other components of their defense. They had a cake schedule last year, they do not have a cake schedule this coming year.

I'm going to say it, the Falcon's will finish below .500 next year if Vick stays healthy for more than 10 games. I know someone will try and be cute and edit the line above to say what they want and post "fixed." But please leave my name out of it.

Tough games

Carolina x 2 as usual - very good offseason

TB x 2 as usual

Jets

Patriots

Vikings

Buffalo

Miami- their defense will give Vick problems

Philly - with TO it won't even be close

Saints x 2 as usual

Seattle - shouldn't have problem scoring against them, but Vick couldn't do anything against the Chiefs weak secondary last year... pathetic

Easier games

Detroit

Chicago

Call me a Vick hater if you want, although he is my favorite player to watch. I'm wanting the Falcons to go to the Super Bowl again (Thank you Chandler and Jamal), and win and I really don't see Vick being able to perform well enough against very good defensive teams.

Kordell and Vick in the same sentence? Did your water break?

 

[cstu]

Imagine that, KevT starting another thread hating on Vick. 

Most teams would love to have a guy that singlehandedly makes their team a superbowl contender.

The age of FF has really made some people not understand the actual game of football.

You're right I don't like Vick, because I believe that he's hurting the team more than helping it. I would love to see Vick become the QB that a lot of people think he's capable of. I would love to see Vick match Kordell Stewart's best season. I would love to see Vick actually do what people think he is doing, which is carry the team. Right now the Defense is carrying the team. The reason the Falcons' couldn't win a couple of years ago is because they had Doug Johnson, the third QB on the Titans and Kurt Kittner, who I don't think is even in the league anymore. Put any mediocre QB in place and I think you'll see similiar results and maybe better results in the playoffs. Don't bring up that game in Green Bay, that had little to do with Michael Vick, who I don't think totaled a 100 yards, but more to do with the Packers injuries and the Falcons' defense.

They had to release Ed Jasper this year, which really hurts their defensive line, they also had to release a couple of other components of their defense. They had a cake schedule last year, they do not have a cake schedule this coming year.

I'm going to say it, the Falcon's will finish below .500 next year if Vick stays healthy for more than 10 games. I know someone will try and be cute and edit the line above to say what they want and post "fixed." But please leave my name out of it.

Tough games

Carolina x 2 as usual - very good offseason

TB x 2 as usual

Jets

Patriots

Vikings

Buffalo

Miami- their defense will give Vick problems

Philly - with TO it won't even be close

Saints x 2 as usual

Seattle - shouldn't have problem scoring against them, but Vick couldn't do anything against the Chiefs weak secondary last year... pathetic

Easier games

Detroit

Chicago

Call me a Vick hater if you want, although he is my favorite player to watch. I'm wanting the Falcons to go to the Super Bowl again (Thank you Chandler and Jamal), and win and I really don't see Vick being able to perform well enough against very good defensive teams.

They do have a rough schedule and with any other QB I'd say they'll be under .500, but I don't put anything past Vick. His passing should better (if not quite good yet) and if he stays healthy the Falcons will upset a lot of teams.

 

[10993]

Right now the Defense is carrying the team.

Falcons offense, pts. scored, 2004:#16 in NFL, 21.3 ppgFalcons defense, pts. against, 2004:#14 in NFL, 21.1 ppgFirst, it's clear that the defense is not carrying that team.Secondly, for a team with such a close margin between points for and against, the difference-making ability of Vick at the end of a close game cannot be overstated.

 

[rhawkins68]

Ahh. Another useless M. Vick thread.

 

[psychobillies]

Imagine that, KevT starting another thread hating on Vick.

Most teams would love to have a guy that singlehandedly makes their team a superbowl contender.

The age of FF has really made some people not understand the actual game of football.

The point of the thread, I think, was not so much to bash Vick. It was to call out all of those who posted thread after thread and page after page about what a selfish jerk Manning was for getting paid market value. They went on repeatedly about how he was hurting his team by being so selfish and why doesn't he take less money and blah blah blah. Yet nobody has a problem when other QB's do the same thing. People just don't like the Mannings I guess. Maybe they see a goofy whte guy who is more successful than them and they can't take it.

 

[rhawkins68]

Imagine that, KevT starting another thread hating on Vick.

Most teams would love to have a guy that singlehandedly makes their team a superbowl contender.

The age of FF has really made some people not understand the actual game of football.

Singlehandedly huh? So who is it that does not understand football?

The person that thinks Vick singlehandedly makes a team a super bowl contender or the person who thinks that the team is the reason they are a superbowl contender?

I think your right though. FF has made people not understand the actual game of football. To bad most here do not realize why though.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

Truth be told, I'm not too worried about the schedule next year. It is more difficult, but I think being able to handle the tougher schedule is another stage in this teams development. Will they go 11-5 again and win the NFC South by Halloween. Maybe and probably not, but I think to imply (and noone has here) that the Falcons were a good team because they had an easy schedule is untrue.As for Vick, I think the Falcons were much less a one-man team in 2004 than they were in 2002. I think the balance of contribution on both sides of the ball aside from Vick was much better than at any time under Reeves. However, an injury to Vick and this team is still not play-off caliber (assuming 8-8 doesn't make the playoffs). But they are better than what they showed in 2003, even if Doug Johnson was the QB.

 

[lipster26]

Truth be told, I'm not too worried about the schedule next year. It is more difficult, but I think being able to handle the tougher schedule is another stage in this teams development. Will they go 11-5 again and win the NFC South by Halloween. Maybe and probably not, but I think to imply (and noone has here) that the Falcons were a good team because they had an easy schedule is untrue.

As for Vick, I think the Falcons were much less a one-man team in 2004 than they were in 2002. I think the balance of contribution on both sides of the ball aside from Vick was much better than at any time under Reeves. However, an injury to Vick and this team is still not play-off caliber (assuming 8-8 doesn't make the playoffs). But they are better than what they showed in 2003, even if Doug Johnson was the QB.

I think the falcons players hold Vick in such high regard that they are waiting for him to make a play. And when he doesn't they can't pick up the slack. The defense is what keeps them in games, but it is Vick that wins it for them.

 

[fatgirlsrock]

Imagine that, KevT starting another thread hating on Vick.

Most teams would love to have a guy that singlehandedly makes their team a superbowl contender.

The age of FF has really made some people not understand the actual game of football.

Singlehandedly huh? So who is it that does not understand football?

The person that thinks Vick singlehandedly makes a team a super bowl contender or the person who thinks that the team is the reason they are a superbowl contender?

I think your right though. FF has made people not understand the actual game of football. To bad most here do not realize why though.

Yes, Vick singehandedly makes them a superbowl contender, that does not mean the rest of the team isn't important. Take out any other one piece of that team and they are still a top notch team, take out Vick and they are at best an 8-8 club, more likely an under .500 team.Of course the rest of the team matters, but no one player in the NFL affects his teams chances of winning like Vick does. Let's face it without Vick that team is not very good.

I just find it amusing some Atlanta fans actually have the nerve to think Vick isn't the main reason that team was in the NFC championship game. It shows they base their evaluations of players stricktly on FF terms and don't understand anything about the real NFL.

Find me one real NFL exec who doesn't acknowledge the value of Vick to that team. Many polls have shown that the REAL NFL execs would love to have him on their team, only people with a limited understanding of the real NFL would argue otherwise.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

Because with him they are a playoff team. Without him they are a 4 win team

You are not serious in saying this team is a 4 win team without M.Vick in the line up. People are disregarding the fact that the reason the team did so poorly when M.Vick was not playing is because they had D.Johnson (a terrible QB) and M.Schaubb (a rookie) as their back up Qb's.

M.Vick makes them better but there team would probably be a playoff bound with many starting QB's in this league. I would say you can take any of the top 15 QB's in the league and Atl would have a shot at the playoffs this year or last year.

Their all around team is pretty darn good, and yes M.Vick is a special player but I think the team could just as easily make the playoffs with guys like Bulger, Hasselback, and even worst QB's like A.Brooks etc.

Their offense was not even that good this year. M. Vick gets way to much credit for a pretty good all around football team.

You people that keep saying crap like this need to learn a little bit about football. Why do you think Atlanta's running attack was so great this year? Vick, Vick, and more Vick. I'll try to break it into an example for you. Remember that huge run Warrick Dunn broke against the Rams to break the playoff game wide open? Do you remember why it happened? They were sitting a spy on the outside corner to guard against the bootleg, so when Dunn slipped through the line, the spy wasn't able to flash to the middle on the cutback, and Dunn was home free. You guys simply don't understand how much defensive schemes have to change to defend Michael Vick--and if they don't change, he waltzes 25 yds. every play on a bootleg. Vick=Wins and that's why he gets paid.

Edit: He's also got a nasty arm, and Steve Young (who knows a thing or two about WCO QB's) says that Vick is maturing in the WCO as fast as he could imagine, and faster than McNabb did.

Very good points: If you read my post, I clearly state Vick is a special playe (not so much great QB) and I do understand that he is a vocal point of a team and their defensive scheme just as the case for any good player. The problem is many people say he is carrying his team and treating him like he is M. Jordan of the NFL. I understand he is fun to watch and a a player with great talent. But come on if you can't see that Atl has a good team that could win 11 games with many QB's in this league as their starters then you yourself don't know football. I mean they made it to the superbowl with Chandler as their QB and I am sure they were filling the seats then paying Chandler half the money that Vick is getting.

You can't honestly say M.Vick makes the team turn around from being a 5-11 team to a 11-5 team when it is clear to see that it was the fact that they had to play a QB who is a third string on most teams in the NFL. Just like how St.Louis fell apart when Bulger went down and they were forced to start Chandler (now 40 years old and brutal) and they would have maybe finished 1-15 with him in the line up from day one.

Vick is a special player but until he proves that he can throw the f'ball then he is going to be seen as just a good QB who can run. He is exciting but when it comes to the 2 minute drill and the time is running out because you have no time outs and you need to throw the ball then M. Vick will struggle more then any of your good throwing QB's. He started in 15 games this year and threw for only 14 TDs. Hardly exceptional throwing numbers for a starting QB in the NFL. He is right now in my mind a little bit of an upgrade from K. Stewart's years as a starter in Pitt. An average QB who can run really well and is getting wins because of a good all around team.

I really feel that the losses will start to pile up over the next couple of years if he does not learn how to throw the ball first and then run second and last season will just have been an enigma.

 

[lipster26]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

Because with him they are a playoff team. Without him they are a 4 win team

You are not serious in saying this team is a 4 win team without M.Vick in the line up. People are disregarding the fact that the reason the team did so poorly when M.Vick was not playing is because they had D.Johnson (a terrible QB) and M.Schaubb (a rookie) as their back up Qb's.

M.Vick makes them better but there team would probably be a playoff bound with many starting QB's in this league. I would say you can take any of the top 15 QB's in the league and Atl would have a shot at the playoffs this year or last year.

Their all around team is pretty darn good, and yes M.Vick is a special player but I think the team could just as easily make the playoffs with guys like Bulger, Hasselback, and even worst QB's like A.Brooks etc.

Their offense was not even that good this year. M. Vick gets way to much credit for a pretty good all around football team.

You people that keep saying crap like this need to learn a little bit about football. Why do you think Atlanta's running attack was so great this year? Vick, Vick, and more Vick. I'll try to break it into an example for you. Remember that huge run Warrick Dunn broke against the Rams to break the playoff game wide open? Do you remember why it happened? They were sitting a spy on the outside corner to guard against the bootleg, so when Dunn slipped through the line, the spy wasn't able to flash to the middle on the cutback, and Dunn was home free. You guys simply don't understand how much defensive schemes have to change to defend Michael Vick--and if they don't change, he waltzes 25 yds. every play on a bootleg. Vick=Wins and that's why he gets paid.

Edit: He's also got a nasty arm, and Steve Young (who knows a thing or two about WCO QB's) says that Vick is maturing in the WCO as fast as he could imagine, and faster than McNabb did.

Very good points: If you read my post, I clearly state Vick is a special playe (not so much great QB) and I do understand that he is a vocal point of a team and their defensive scheme just as the case for any good player. The problem is many people say he is carrying his team and treating him like he is M. Jordan of the NFL. I understand he is fun to watch and a a player with great talent. But come on if you can't see that Atl has a good team that could win 11 games with many QB's in this league as their starters then you yourself don't know football. I mean they made it to the superbowl with Chandler as their QB and I am sure they were filling the seats then paying Chandler half the money that Vick is getting.

You can't honestly say M.Vick makes the team turn around from being a 5-11 team to a 11-5 team when it is clear to see that it was the fact that they had to play a QB who is a third string on most teams in the NFL. Just like how St.Louis fell apart when Bulger went down and they were forced to start Chandler (now 40 years old and brutal) and they would have maybe finished 1-15 with him in the line up from day one.

Vick is a special player but until he proves that he can throw the f'ball then he is going to be seen as just a good QB who can run. He is exciting but when it comes to the 2 minute drill and the time is running out because you have no time outs and you need to throw the ball then M. Vick will struggle more then any of your good throwing QB's. He started in 15 games this year and threw for only 14 TDs. Hardly exceptional throwing numbers for a starting QB in the NFL. He is right now in my mind a little bit of an upgrade from K. Stewart's years as a starter in Pitt. An average QB who can run really well and is getting wins because of a good all around team.

I really feel that the losses will start to pile up over the next couple of years if he does not learn how to throw the ball first and then run second and last season will just have been an enigma.

Chandler doesn't sell jerseys like Michael Vick. And that year they went to the Superbowl was an anomaly. A fluke. Michael Vick's two full seasons as QB, he's gone to the playoffs. The two years he didn't play the full season, they sucked. He has to count for something.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

Because with him they are a playoff team. Without him they are a 4 win team

You are not serious in saying this team is a 4 win team without M.Vick in the line up. People are disregarding the fact that the reason the team did so poorly when M.Vick was not playing is because they had D.Johnson (a terrible QB) and M.Schaubb (a rookie) as their back up Qb's.

M.Vick makes them better but there team would probably be a playoff bound with many starting QB's in this league. I would say you can take any of the top 15 QB's in the league and Atl would have a shot at the playoffs this year or last year.

Their all around team is pretty darn good, and yes M.Vick is a special player but I think the team could just as easily make the playoffs with guys like Bulger, Hasselback, and even worst QB's like A.Brooks etc.

Their offense was not even that good this year. M. Vick gets way to much credit for a pretty good all around football team.

You people that keep saying crap like this need to learn a little bit about football. Why do you think Atlanta's running attack was so great this year? Vick, Vick, and more Vick. I'll try to break it into an example for you. Remember that huge run Warrick Dunn broke against the Rams to break the playoff game wide open? Do you remember why it happened? They were sitting a spy on the outside corner to guard against the bootleg, so when Dunn slipped through the line, the spy wasn't able to flash to the middle on the cutback, and Dunn was home free. You guys simply don't understand how much defensive schemes have to change to defend Michael Vick--and if they don't change, he waltzes 25 yds. every play on a bootleg. Vick=Wins and that's why he gets paid.

Edit: He's also got a nasty arm, and Steve Young (who knows a thing or two about WCO QB's) says that Vick is maturing in the WCO as fast as he could imagine, and faster than McNabb did.

Very good points: If you read my post, I clearly state Vick is a special playe (not so much great QB) and I do understand that he is a vocal point of a team and their defensive scheme just as the case for any good player. The problem is many people say he is carrying his team and treating him like he is M. Jordan of the NFL. I understand he is fun to watch and a a player with great talent. But come on if you can't see that Atl has a good team that could win 11 games with many QB's in this league as their starters then you yourself don't know football. I mean they made it to the superbowl with Chandler as their QB and I am sure they were filling the seats then paying Chandler half the money that Vick is getting.

You can't honestly say M.Vick makes the team turn around from being a 5-11 team to a 11-5 team when it is clear to see that it was the fact that they had to play a QB who is a third string on most teams in the NFL. Just like how St.Louis fell apart when Bulger went down and they were forced to start Chandler (now 40 years old and brutal) and they would have maybe finished 1-15 with him in the line up from day one.

Vick is a special player but until he proves that he can throw the f'ball then he is going to be seen as just a good QB who can run. He is exciting but when it comes to the 2 minute drill and the time is running out because you have no time outs and you need to throw the ball then M. Vick will struggle more then any of your good throwing QB's. He started in 15 games this year and threw for only 14 TDs. Hardly exceptional throwing numbers for a starting QB in the NFL. He is right now in my mind a little bit of an upgrade from K. Stewart's years as a starter in Pitt. An average QB who can run really well and is getting wins because of a good all around team.

I really feel that the losses will start to pile up over the next couple of years if he does not learn how to throw the ball first and then run second and last season will just have been an enigma.

Chandler doesn't sell jerseys like Michael Vick. And that year they went to the Superbowl was an anomaly. A fluke. Michael Vick's two full seasons as QB, he's gone to the playoffs. The two years he didn't play the full season, they sucked. He has to count for something.

My point is they could have made it to the playoffs with a top 15 QB in the NFL and NOT soley because of M.Vick. I do agree that Vick sells jerseys as he is exciting to watch.

 

[lipster26]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

Because with him they are a playoff team. Without him they are a 4 win team

You are not serious in saying this team is a 4 win team without M.Vick in the line up. People are disregarding the fact that the reason the team did so poorly when M.Vick was not playing is because they had D.Johnson (a terrible QB) and M.Schaubb (a rookie) as their back up Qb's.

M.Vick makes them better but there team would probably be a playoff bound with many starting QB's in this league. I would say you can take any of the top 15 QB's in the league and Atl would have a shot at the playoffs this year or last year.

Their all around team is pretty darn good, and yes M.Vick is a special player but I think the team could just as easily make the playoffs with guys like Bulger, Hasselback, and even worst QB's like A.Brooks etc.

Their offense was not even that good this year. M. Vick gets way to much credit for a pretty good all around football team.

You people that keep saying crap like this need to learn a little bit about football. Why do you think Atlanta's running attack was so great this year? Vick, Vick, and more Vick. I'll try to break it into an example for you. Remember that huge run Warrick Dunn broke against the Rams to break the playoff game wide open? Do you remember why it happened? They were sitting a spy on the outside corner to guard against the bootleg, so when Dunn slipped through the line, the spy wasn't able to flash to the middle on the cutback, and Dunn was home free. You guys simply don't understand how much defensive schemes have to change to defend Michael Vick--and if they don't change, he waltzes 25 yds. every play on a bootleg. Vick=Wins and that's why he gets paid.

Edit: He's also got a nasty arm, and Steve Young (who knows a thing or two about WCO QB's) says that Vick is maturing in the WCO as fast as he could imagine, and faster than McNabb did.

Very good points: If you read my post, I clearly state Vick is a special playe (not so much great QB) and I do understand that he is a vocal point of a team and their defensive scheme just as the case for any good player. The problem is many people say he is carrying his team and treating him like he is M. Jordan of the NFL. I understand he is fun to watch and a a player with great talent. But come on if you can't see that Atl has a good team that could win 11 games with many QB's in this league as their starters then you yourself don't know football. I mean they made it to the superbowl with Chandler as their QB and I am sure they were filling the seats then paying Chandler half the money that Vick is getting.

You can't honestly say M.Vick makes the team turn around from being a 5-11 team to a 11-5 team when it is clear to see that it was the fact that they had to play a QB who is a third string on most teams in the NFL. Just like how St.Louis fell apart when Bulger went down and they were forced to start Chandler (now 40 years old and brutal) and they would have maybe finished 1-15 with him in the line up from day one.

Vick is a special player but until he proves that he can throw the f'ball then he is going to be seen as just a good QB who can run. He is exciting but when it comes to the 2 minute drill and the time is running out because you have no time outs and you need to throw the ball then M. Vick will struggle more then any of your good throwing QB's. He started in 15 games this year and threw for only 14 TDs. Hardly exceptional throwing numbers for a starting QB in the NFL. He is right now in my mind a little bit of an upgrade from K. Stewart's years as a starter in Pitt. An average QB who can run really well and is getting wins because of a good all around team.

I really feel that the losses will start to pile up over the next couple of years if he does not learn how to throw the ball first and then run second and last season will just have been an enigma.

Chandler doesn't sell jerseys like Michael Vick. And that year they went to the Superbowl was an anomaly. A fluke. Michael Vick's two full seasons as QB, he's gone to the playoffs. The two years he didn't play the full season, they sucked. He has to count for something.

My point is they could have made it to the playoffs with a top 15 QB in the NFL and NOT soley because of M.Vick. I do agree that Vick sells jerseys as he is exciting to watch.

I'm sure if you put Vick on any team that has a top 15 QB, that makes them instant contenders to make the playoffs.I seriously doubt that you can place Jake Plummer or Vinny Testaverde or David Carr or Kerry Collins on the team and have the Falcons make the playoffs. He may not be the sole reason the Falcons made the playoffs but he is a huge part of it. Just like McNabb is a huge part to the Eagles and Manning is a huge part to the Colts and Brett Favre to the Packers.

 

[SpaceCowboy]

Imagine that, KevT starting another thread hating on Vick. 

Most teams would love to have a guy that singlehandedly makes their team a superbowl contender.

The age of FF has really made some people not understand the actual game of football.

You're right I don't like Vick, because I believe that he's hurting the team more than helping it. I would love to see Vick become the QB that a lot of people think he's capable of. I would love to see Vick match Kordell Stewart's best season. I would love to see Vick actually do what people think he is doing, which is carry the team. Right now the Defense is carrying the team. The reason the Falcons' couldn't win a couple of years ago is because they had Doug Johnson, the third QB on the Titans and Kurt Kittner, who I don't think is even in the league anymore. Put any mediocre QB in place and I think you'll see similiar results and maybe better results in the playoffs. Don't bring up that game in Green Bay, that had little to do with Michael Vick, who I don't think totaled a 100 yards, but more to do with the Packers injuries and the Falcons' defense.

They had to release Ed Jasper this year, which really hurts their defensive line, they also had to release a couple of other components of their defense. They had a cake schedule last year, they do not have a cake schedule this coming year.

I'm going to say it, the Falcon's will finish below .500 next year if Vick stays healthy for more than 10 games. I know someone will try and be cute and edit the line above to say what they want and post "fixed." But please leave my name out of it.

Tough games

Carolina x 2 as usual - very good offseason

TB x 2 as usual

Jets

Patriots

Vikings

Buffalo

Miami- their defense will give Vick problems

Philly - with TO it won't even be close

Saints x 2 as usual

Seattle - shouldn't have problem scoring against them, but Vick couldn't do anything against the Chiefs weak secondary last year... pathetic

Easier games

Detroit

Chicago

Call me a Vick hater if you want, although he is my favorite player to watch. I'm wanting the Falcons to go to the Super Bowl again (Thank you Chandler and Jamal), and win and I really don't see Vick being able to perform well enough against very good defensive teams.

Kurt Kittner signed with the Bears a few weeks back.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

Because with him they are a playoff team. Without him they are a 4 win team

You are not serious in saying this team is a 4 win team without M.Vick in the line up. People are disregarding the fact that the reason the team did so poorly when M.Vick was not playing is because they had D.Johnson (a terrible QB) and M.Schaubb (a rookie) as their back up Qb's.

M.Vick makes them better but there team would probably be a playoff bound with many starting QB's in this league. I would say you can take any of the top 15 QB's in the league and Atl would have a shot at the playoffs this year or last year.

Their all around team is pretty darn good, and yes M.Vick is a special player but I think the team could just as easily make the playoffs with guys like Bulger, Hasselback, and even worst QB's like A.Brooks etc.

Their offense was not even that good this year. M. Vick gets way to much credit for a pretty good all around football team.

You people that keep saying crap like this need to learn a little bit about football. Why do you think Atlanta's running attack was so great this year? Vick, Vick, and more Vick. I'll try to break it into an example for you. Remember that huge run Warrick Dunn broke against the Rams to break the playoff game wide open? Do you remember why it happened? They were sitting a spy on the outside corner to guard against the bootleg, so when Dunn slipped through the line, the spy wasn't able to flash to the middle on the cutback, and Dunn was home free. You guys simply don't understand how much defensive schemes have to change to defend Michael Vick--and if they don't change, he waltzes 25 yds. every play on a bootleg. Vick=Wins and that's why he gets paid.

Edit: He's also got a nasty arm, and Steve Young (who knows a thing or two about WCO QB's) says that Vick is maturing in the WCO as fast as he could imagine, and faster than McNabb did.

Very good points: If you read my post, I clearly state Vick is a special playe (not so much great QB) and I do understand that he is a vocal point of a team and their defensive scheme just as the case for any good player. The problem is many people say he is carrying his team and treating him like he is M. Jordan of the NFL. I understand he is fun to watch and a a player with great talent. But come on if you can't see that Atl has a good team that could win 11 games with many QB's in this league as their starters then you yourself don't know football. I mean they made it to the superbowl with Chandler as their QB and I am sure they were filling the seats then paying Chandler half the money that Vick is getting.

You can't honestly say M.Vick makes the team turn around from being a 5-11 team to a 11-5 team when it is clear to see that it was the fact that they had to play a QB who is a third string on most teams in the NFL. Just like how St.Louis fell apart when Bulger went down and they were forced to start Chandler (now 40 years old and brutal) and they would have maybe finished 1-15 with him in the line up from day one.

Vick is a special player but until he proves that he can throw the f'ball then he is going to be seen as just a good QB who can run. He is exciting but when it comes to the 2 minute drill and the time is running out because you have no time outs and you need to throw the ball then M. Vick will struggle more then any of your good throwing QB's. He started in 15 games this year and threw for only 14 TDs. Hardly exceptional throwing numbers for a starting QB in the NFL. He is right now in my mind a little bit of an upgrade from K. Stewart's years as a starter in Pitt. An average QB who can run really well and is getting wins because of a good all around team.

I really feel that the losses will start to pile up over the next couple of years if he does not learn how to throw the ball first and then run second and last season will just have been an enigma.

Chandler doesn't sell jerseys like Michael Vick. And that year they went to the Superbowl was an anomaly. A fluke. Michael Vick's two full seasons as QB, he's gone to the playoffs. The two years he didn't play the full season, they sucked. He has to count for something.

My point is they could have made it to the playoffs with a top 15 QB in the NFL and NOT soley because of M.Vick. I do agree that Vick sells jerseys as he is exciting to watch.

I'm sure if you put Vick on any team that has a top 15 QB, that makes them instant contenders to make the playoffs.I seriously doubt that you can place Jake Plummer or Vinny Testaverde or David Carr or Kerry Collins on the team and have the Falcons make the playoffs. He may not be the sole reason the Falcons made the playoffs but he is a huge part of it. Just like McNabb is a huge part to the Eagles and Manning is a huge part to the Colts and Brett Favre to the Packers.

He is no more important to the Falcons as these other QB's are to their teams yet everyone says he is carrying Atl by himself when clearly he has a good team all the way around him. In fact, he has a better team then Indy and GB because ATL has a much better defense. If you put Vick in GB and IND they struggle to make the playoffs last season if at all. But if you put these other QB's in ATL they easily make the playoffs, this is my point he is replaceable and if Atl had a top 15 QB playing for them next season they would do just as well as with Vick there. IMO I say Plummer and Collins would both be in the hunt for a playoff spot if brought into Atl's team.

 

[10993]

In fact, he has a better team then Indy and GB because ATL has a much better defense.

Bull####. ATL's defense is only #14 in the NFL in PA, and you're forgetting the rest of the equation. Who does Favre have around him? Ahman, Walker, and Driver. Who does Manning have? James, Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, Clark. Vick? A far inferior supporting cast--no WR, marginal RBs, and a good TE.

 

[lipster26]

He is no more important to the Falcons as these other QB's are to their teams yet everyone says he is carrying Atl by himself when clearly he has a good team all the way around him. In fact, he has a better team then Indy and GB because ATL has a much better defense. If you put Vick in GB and IND they struggle to make the playoffs last season if at all. But if you put these other QB's in ATL they easily make the playoffs, this is my point he is replaceable and if Atl had a top 15 QB playing for them next season they would do just as well as with Vick there. IMO

I say Plummer and Collins would both be in the hunt for a playoff spot if brought into Atl's team.

Ok, if you want to use two future hall of famers in your hypothetical situations then you got me there.

But I find it hard to believe that you can just interchange any top 15 QB with other teams and have the same success. Manning, Favre, McNabb and Culpepper I can believe, but Trent Green, Hasselbeck, Plummer, Collins etc. would not have the same success as Vick. You could also argue that it is Vick that makes the defense better than they should be. He keeps drives alive with his legs and getting first downs.

The fact is, that with Michael Vick they have played 4 playoff games winning two, (one by the way was Vicks' second year in the league and against Brett Favre who had a better defense and better WRs) and without him they have played 0. You can't expect any top 15 QB to do that. But If you want to keep on thinking that all it takes to get to the playoffs is a top 15 defense and a top 15 QB then go right ahead. Especially since only 12 teams actually make the playoffs.

PS. What is it with you and Top 15 rankings????

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

He is no more important to the Falcons as these other QB's are to their teams yet everyone says he is carrying Atl by himself when clearly he has a good team all the way around him. In fact, he has a better team then Indy and GB because ATL has a much better defense. If you put Vick in GB and IND they struggle to make the playoffs last season if at all. But if you put these other QB's in ATL they easily make the playoffs, this is my point he is replaceable and if Atl had a top 15 QB playing for them next season they would do just as well as with Vick there. IMO

I say Plummer and Collins would both be in the hunt for a playoff spot if brought into Atl's team.

Ok, if you want to use two future hall of famers in your hypothetical situations then you got me there.

But I find it hard to believe that you can just interchange any top 15 QB with other teams and have the same success. Manning, Favre, McNabb and Culpepper I can believe, but Plummer and Collins would not have the same success as Vick. You could also argue that it is Vick that makes the defense better than they should be. He keeps drives alive with his legs and getting first downs.

The fact is, that with Michael Vick they have played 4 playoff games winning two, (one by the way was Vicks' second year in the league and against Brett Favre who had a better defense and better WRs) and without him they have played 0. You can't expect any top 15 QB to do that. But If you want to keep on thinking that all it takes to get to the playoffs is a top 15 defense and a top 15 QB then go right ahead. Especially since only 12 teams actually make the playoffs.

PS. What is it with you and Top 15 rankings????

lol, I guess you can say I rank thinks in two teirs. The top half being better then 15.

We can argue this all day but I really feel people are on the fence about M. Vick. I think he is good and maybe will develop into something great but I feel he gets to much credit.

Yes, Vick may keep things alive with his legs but good QB's can keep drives alive with their arms.

12 QB's that I see going to Atl and them making the playoffs..... since 12 teams make the playoffs

Culpepepper

Mcanbb

Manning

Green

Favre

Brady

Bulger

Brooks

Plummer

Delhomme

Hasselback

Pennington

These are all guys who have been to the playoffs in the last few years that could go to Atl and get that team to the playoffs just like M. Vick did to prove that M.Vick is not soley carrying that team. Once again I am not arguing that Vick is a bad player but I think he gets more credit then he deserves.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

In fact, he has a better team then Indy and GB because ATL has a much better defense.

Bull####. ATL's defense is only #14 in the NFL in PA, and you're forgetting the rest of the equation. Who does Favre have around him? Ahman, Walker, and Driver. Who does Manning have? James, Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, Clark. Vick? A far inferior supporting cast--no WR, marginal RBs, and a good TE.

I laugh at this quote you name every player on Indy's team. Isin't this saying something that Manning is that good that he makes everyone on that offense good. Stokely getting 1000 yds. How would P.Price do with Indy???? Same situation with Favre, does he make his recievers better then they are. Numbers don't lie:

Vick's QB numbers are marginal make the playoffs

Rothelisbergers QB numbers are margianl make the playoffs

But they both play on a good team so beneficiaries of good teams.

Other QB's have to do just as much as Vick does to get their team into the playoffs yet we seem to think Vick is carrying his team so much.

 

[Dancing Bear]

I agree with Carter_Can_Fly.Atlanta's defense won at least 3 games this past season when Vick was either stymied or sucked or both.He is over-rated from the standpoint of a QB with barely a 50% completion ratio!No with regards to the point of this thread.Vick is SELFISH. I do not know why you would single him out though. Peyton Manning is SELFISH too. Specifically when it comes to the O-Line a QB should be "watching his back" and providing enough cap-room so that the team can provide him with quality players.Indy's O-Line could just as easily turned in a performance like the NY Giants with their losses last year. Instead Manning was sacked less than once per game! Kurt Warner was sacked basically 4 times per game! Peyton was lucky considering he pushed Indy into a predicament concerning money.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

I really do not know why the Falcons would give Vick that kind of money..

Because with him they are a playoff team. Without him they are a 4 win team

You are not serious in saying this team is a 4 win team without M.Vick in the line up. People are disregarding the fact that the reason the team did so poorly when M.Vick was not playing is because they had D.Johnson (a terrible QB) and M.Schaubb (a rookie) as their back up Qb's.

M.Vick makes them better but there team would probably be a playoff bound with many starting QB's in this league. I would say you can take any of the top 15 QB's in the league and Atl would have a shot at the playoffs this year or last year.

Their all around team is pretty darn good, and yes M.Vick is a special player but I think the team could just as easily make the playoffs with guys like Bulger, Hasselback, and even worst QB's like A.Brooks etc.

Their offense was not even that good this year. M. Vick gets way to much credit for a pretty good all around football team.

You people that keep saying crap like this need to learn a little bit about football. Why do you think Atlanta's running attack was so great this year? Vick, Vick, and more Vick. I'll try to break it into an example for you. Remember that huge run Warrick Dunn broke against the Rams to break the playoff game wide open? Do you remember why it happened? They were sitting a spy on the outside corner to guard against the bootleg, so when Dunn slipped through the line, the spy wasn't able to flash to the middle on the cutback, and Dunn was home free. You guys simply don't understand how much defensive schemes have to change to defend Michael Vick--and if they don't change, he waltzes 25 yds. every play on a bootleg. Vick=Wins and that's why he gets paid.

Edit: He's also got a nasty arm, and Steve Young (who knows a thing or two about WCO QB's) says that Vick is maturing in the WCO as fast as he could imagine, and faster than McNabb did.

Very good points: If you read my post, I clearly state Vick is a special playe (not so much great QB) and I do understand that he is a vocal point of a team and their defensive scheme just as the case for any good player. The problem is many people say he is carrying his team and treating him like he is M. Jordan of the NFL. I understand he is fun to watch and a a player with great talent. But come on if you can't see that Atl has a good team that could win 11 games with many QB's in this league as their starters then you yourself don't know football. I mean they made it to the superbowl with Chandler as their QB and I am sure they were filling the seats then paying Chandler half the money that Vick is getting.

You can't honestly say M.Vick makes the team turn around from being a 5-11 team to a 11-5 team when it is clear to see that it was the fact that they had to play a QB who is a third string on most teams in the NFL. Just like how St.Louis fell apart when Bulger went down and they were forced to start Chandler (now 40 years old and brutal) and they would have maybe finished 1-15 with him in the line up from day one.

Vick is a special player but until he proves that he can throw the f'ball then he is going to be seen as just a good QB who can run. He is exciting but when it comes to the 2 minute drill and the time is running out because you have no time outs and you need to throw the ball then M. Vick will struggle more then any of your good throwing QB's. He started in 15 games this year and threw for only 14 TDs. Hardly exceptional throwing numbers for a starting QB in the NFL. He is right now in my mind a little bit of an upgrade from K. Stewart's years as a starter in Pitt. An average QB who can run really well and is getting wins because of a good all around team.

I really feel that the losses will start to pile up over the next couple of years if he does not learn how to throw the ball first and then run second and last season will just have been an enigma.

LOL.You cannot simpy throw in a top 15 QB cause the aspect that sets Vick apart from those is the fact that he is as quick as sin. Defenses are soley concentrating on containing Vick. The Falcons do not have good WRs by any means and why you can't throw in a passing QB to expect the same. Defenses gameplan for Vick and are concentrtaing on him so much that they do not focus on Dunn/Duckett. How do you think Atlanta was the best rushing team in the league last year?

The Qb is a position and Vick is an amazing QB, he may not be a passing QB yet, but he changes games singlehandedly, makes defense game plan around him and WINS. He wins games when he is in the lineup and loses when is is out of them. Its not a coincidence.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

I hate to harp on this topic, but I think as someone who watches all their games (in the Dome when they are home) I have perhaps a more informed and complete view of his plusses and minuses. Let me just say this.The difference between the Falcons when Vick is playing well versus when he's not is night and day. When Vick is on, not only do the Falcons look so much better but (and I'm not kidding when I tell you this)...he controls the ENTIRE atmosphere and environment of the game.I'm not saying other QB's haven't had that ability before...I'm sure quite a few have. But when Vick gets pinned to conventional methods of measuring QB play...it's almost laughable because there very little that Vick does or is that is conventional.Are there times when you wonder if certain parts of his game are going to click...of course. But there are many more times when you simply marvel at what he's capable of...and that is not restricted simply to his ability to gain yards on the ground.His presence on the field alone makes Warrick Dunn & T.J Duckett at least 15-20% better. Does he need ot learn to use his WR's better...yes. But if there is any QB in ther NFL whose value simply can't be measured statistically, it's Vick.

 

[packersfan]

I agree that Vick wins in an "unconventional" manner. However, the kicker here is that if he wants to take the Falcons to the Super Bowl and win a championship he is going to have to prove he can win in a conventional manner.

In other words, he's going to have to beat people throwing the football. And that is something he has not proven he can do consistently.

I don't think it's a coincidence that his two playoff defeats have come at the hands of a team that has forced him to be something he has proven he cannot do. For Vick to take the next step and truly be a player whose production matches his hype, he is going to have to take a good, long look at what the Eagles have done to him, figure out the reasons why they did it to him and rise above it.

When he does that, then I'll consider him a great QB. Until that time comes I'll continue to consider him a very exciting player but an extremely over-rated NFL quarterback.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

I agree that Vick wins in an "unconventional" manner. However, the kicker here is that if he wants to take the Falcons to the Super Bowl and win a championship he is going to have to prove he can win in a conventional manner.

In other words, he's going to have to beat people throwing the football. And that is something he has not proven he can do consistently.

I don't think it's a coincidence that his two playoff defeats have come at the hands of a team that has forced him to be something he has proven he cannot do. For Vick to take the next step and truly be a player whose production matches his hype, he is going to have to take a good, long look at what the Eagles have done to him, figure out the reasons why they did it to him and rise above it.

When he does that, then I'll consider him a great QB. Until that time comes I'll continue to consider him a very exciting player but an extremely over-rated NFL quarterback.

Questions:1) Who cares how you win?

5 years ago, the Patriots method of building a team would have been deemed unconventional. Yeah, throw a 6th round nobody QB in there and give him Antowain Smith to pound the ball. Conventional or unconventional doesn't matter so long as you win. Vick wins. If you define winning solely by whether he's won a SB or been to one, that's an awfully small group and Vick turns 25 in June...

2) This notion that Vick can't throw the ball is one I don't get...

He was 16th in the NFL in YPA and the difference between Vick's accuracy and someone like Jake Delhomme or Matt Hasselbeck is 6-7 completed passes over the course of an entire season. And Delhomme and a guy like Mushin Muhammed to throw the ball to. Hasselbeck had his WR issues though. My point is that when people make an argument that Vick can't throw the ball or can't beat people with his arm...who says? I just think that part of his game gets overshadowed tremendously and while I'll be the first to admit that he can't stay at this stage of development...this was his first year in a notoriously complex and "touchy feeley" WCO.

3) Why does Vick's hype get held against him?

Seriously, there is no doubt in my mind that people form derogatory opinions or at the very least have their opinions of Vick as a player formed by factors other than what he does on the football field.

4) This was your quote: "I don't think it's a coincidence that his two playoff defeats have come at the hands of a team that has forced him to be something he has proven he cannot do".

Did you know that since 1995 in the Divisional Game and Conference Championship Game rounds, the home team is 42-18; a .700 winning percentage? Do you think maybe being the away team in those two games had a little bit to do with the Falcons not being able to get by the Eagles in those two games? Did Vick look good in either of those games. No...but Manning has looked pretty poor against the Patriots the last two years in the play-offs and I don't hear too many catcalls about his abilities.

My overall point is that Vick seems to be the type of player that when the first sign of a flaw starts to show, people point to that as the ultimate turning point and downfall of Vick on his way to quarterbacking the Georgia Force so on the off-chance the wheels do come off, they can say "I told you so" because admittedly, he has his share of staunch supporters as well. That said, I don't see what Vick has done to warrant the sharp criticism he endures from his detractors. It seems a flimsy stance given his record and performance thus far in the NFL.

 

[Dancing Bear]

First and foremost, let me say that I think that Vick is certainly an exciting player to watch.But ... a QB like Brian Griese outperformed him last year between Week 5 through Week 15. By nearly 2 ppg!Neither one was steady week-in or week-out and they could just as apt to score 1 point as they were to score 31 points, but Griese was a better Fantasy QB. Especially with regards to value!IMHO the Atlanta Defense would have been much better if Vick was better than a 50% passer; you cannot under-estimate the impact that a 3 and out causes on the D ...

 

[fridayfrenzy]

First and foremost, let me say that I think that Vick is certainly an exciting player to watch.

But ... a QB like Brian Griese outperformed him last year between Week 5 through Week 15. By nearly 2 ppg!

Neither one was steady week-in or week-out and they could just as apt to score 1 point as they were to score 31 points, but Griese was a better Fantasy QB. Especially with regards to value!

IMHO the Atlanta Defense would have been much better if Vick was better than a 50% passer; you cannot under-estimate the impact that a 3 and out causes on the D ...

Im not sure if people are talking about fantasy points here.They are talking about skill. Comparing Griese and Vick in skill is laughable to say the least.

 

[Dancing Bear]

fridayfrenzy,Skill?Brian Griese through for nearly 600 more yards. He had 6 more passing TD's and 3 more total TD's. He also threw for nearly 70% completions as opposed to 54% for Vick.If you want to speculate on potential, giftedness, etc., then Vick will surely win by the hype of it all. So did Kordell Stewart for nearly 10 years! He never reached any of the potential. Vick will not either!Skill is something that you are actually able to show through performance not speculation. Vick has a bunch of potential. He exhibits very little skill!

 

[10993]

fridayfrenzy,

Skill?

Brian Griese through for nearly 600 more yards. He had 6 more passing TD's and 3 more total TD's. He also threw for nearly 70% completions as opposed to 54% for Vick.

If you want to speculate on potential, giftedness, etc., then Vick will surely win by the hype of it all. So did Kordell Stewart for nearly 10 years! He never reached any of the potential. Vick will not either!

Skill is something that you are actually able to show through performance not speculation. Vick has a bunch of potential. He exhibits very little skill!

You should ask Tom Brady and Peyton Manning how much passing stats count for at the end of the season.Vick=Wins, and that's why he gets paid.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

fridayfrenzy,

Skill?

Brian Griese through for nearly 600 more yards. He had 6 more passing TD's and 3 more total TD's. He also threw for nearly 70% completions as opposed to 54% for Vick.

If you want to speculate on potential, giftedness, etc., then Vick will surely win by the hype of it all. So did Kordell Stewart for nearly 10 years! He never reached any of the potential. Vick will not either!

Skill is something that you are actually able to show through performance not speculation. Vick has a bunch of potential. He exhibits very little skill!

If you were the GM of a pro football team for one year and one year only...... You're saying you would pick Griese as your QB over Vick? Muhahahahahahahahaha.

That cracks me up. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: