Vick = Selfish (1 Viewer)

[joffer]

3)  Why does Vick's hype get held against him?Seriously, there is no doubt in my mind that people form derogatory opinions or at the very least have their opinions of Vick as a player formed by factors other than what he does on the football field.

 

[lipster26]

fridayfrenzy,

Skill?

Brian Griese through for nearly 600 more yards.  He had 6 more passing TD's and 3 more total TD's.  He also threw for nearly 70% completions as opposed to 54% for Vick.

If you want to speculate on potential, giftedness, etc., then Vick will surely win by the hype of it all.  So did Kordell Stewart for nearly 10 years!  He never reached any of the potential.  Vick will not either!

Skill is something that you are actually able to show through performance not speculation.  Vick has a bunch of potential.  He exhibits very little skill!

Little skill means getting to the conference championship and losing to a very good defense. He has more in common with McNabb than he does Stewart. Every defense is focused on Vick but he still beats them.

 

[Dancing Bear]

Perhaps you should review a little history.Stewart took the Steelers to two Championship games ...He also had the hype. He never met the hype and at a young age he is basically shelved!Also, if you read my initial comment, I have stated that Vick has been unfairly singled out as being selfish!

 

[fatgirlsrock]

But ... a QB like Brian Griese outperformed him last year between Week 5 through Week 15. By nearly 2 ppg!

Neither one was steady week-in or week-out and they could just as apt to score 1 point as they were to score 31 points, but Griese was a better Fantasy QB. Especially with regards to value!

IMHO the Atlanta Defense would have been much better if Vick was better than a 50% passer; you cannot under-estimate the impact that a 3 and out causes on the D ...

You've sold me. Griese is clearly a better real life QB than Vick, just look at the FF stats. Just think of how awesome Atlanta would of been had they had Griese instead of the loser Vick who got outscored in fantasy football from week 5 on.

 

[lipster26]

Perhaps you should review a little history.

Stewart took the Steelers to two Championship games ...

He also had the hype. He never met the hype and at a young age he is basically shelved!

Also, if you read my initial comment, I have stated that Vick has been unfairly singled out as being selfish!

So, I'm aware of the history of running Qb's who have failed. It doesn't mean that he is not instrumental in the success of his team. Running QB's have had success before. They may not be Super Bowl champions but they have done well. For all the running QB's that you say has not lived up to the hype, you can name even more passing QB's that have not lived up to expectations. If you ask any defensive player in the league, what do they have to do to beat Atlanta, they will answer stop Vick. And if you put a different QB, they bring different skills that don't necessarily translate into wins.

When people say that he "singlehandledly" wins games, they are saying that he is the main reason, (not the only reason) why they won. I'm sure they know it takes more than one player to win games, but people are looking to pinpoint these things and by generalizing that you can put any QB in the same situation and win is taking away from what an individual can bring to the game. It is the sum of all the parts that equates to winning, but sum parts are bigger than others.

And I agree with your comment towards their selfishness. I don't care about it. At least they go out and perform well. If everyone went out and played as well as Manning did after receiving his big contract, then the league would be better.

 

[KevT]

Also, if you read my initial comment, I have stated that Vick has been unfairly singled out as being selfish!

I was wondering why Vick isn't getting the same attention that Manning got with his contract. A whole thread was devoted to why Manning was selfish, or wasn't selfish. I'm not really trying to single him out, just wanted to know why Manning got a lot of attention for being "selfish" and Vick hasn't yet. Then I went into a rant about how I dislike Vick as a QB but love to watch him.

 

[-OZ-]

Not to single anyone out, but can we PLEASE keep FF points out of a discussion if we're talking about the NFL team?

 

[packersfan]

I agree that Vick wins in an "unconventional" manner. However, the kicker here is that if he wants to take the Falcons to the Super Bowl and win a championship he is going to have to prove he can win in a conventional manner.

In other words, he's going to have to beat people throwing the football. And that is something he has not proven he can do consistently.

I don't think it's a coincidence that his two playoff defeats have come at the hands of a team that has forced him to be something he has proven he cannot do. For Vick to take the next step and truly be a player whose production matches his hype, he is going to have to take a good, long look at what the Eagles have done to him, figure out the reasons why they did it to him and rise above it.

When he does that, then I'll consider him a great QB. Until that time comes I'll continue to consider him a very exciting player but an extremely over-rated NFL quarterback.

Questions:1) Who cares how you win?

5 years ago, the Patriots method of building a team would have been deemed unconventional. Yeah, throw a 6th round nobody QB in there and give him Antowain Smith to pound the ball. Conventional or unconventional doesn't matter so long as you win. Vick wins. If you define winning solely by whether he's won a SB or been to one, that's an awfully small group and Vick turns 25 in June...

I don't care how a team wins, but if the Falcons are going to take the next step and be a legitimate Super Bowl contender Vick is going to have to do things he has yet to show he can do consistently. In my opinion. And if achieving a certain level of success is all people cared about, Steve Mariucci would still be in S.F.; Denny Green would still be in Minnesota and Tony Dungy would still be in Tampa Bay. The cold, harsh reality is that at some point a team -- and its best players -- have to do more than just win. They have to win big -- especially players making the kind of money Vick is making.

2) This notion that Vick can't throw the ball is one I don't get...

He was 16th in the NFL in YPA and the difference between Vick's accuracy and someone like Jake Delhomme or Matt Hasselbeck is 6-7 completed passes over the course of an entire season. And Delhomme and a guy like Mushin Muhammed to throw the ball to. Hasselbeck had his WR issues though. My point is that when people make an argument that Vick can't throw the ball or can't beat people with his arm...who says? I just think that part of his game gets overshadowed tremendously and while I'll be the first to admit that he can't stay at this stage of development...this was his first year in a notoriously complex and "touchy feeley" WCO.

And yet other QBs have been able to generate consistent passing games with less than stellar WRs, including QBs operating in the WCO. I'm not going to rehash all of my points about Vick but when you have a QB who performs on the same level as guys like Vinny Testaverde and Joey Harrington in some ways that should be a cause for concern. Apparently it is something the Falcons are hoping to correct. The Sporting News had a note about how the team wants to see Vick do a better job throwing the ball next season, especially downfield.

3) Why does Vick's hype get held against him?

Seriously, there is no doubt in my mind that people form derogatory opinions or at the very least have their opinions of Vick as a player formed by factors other than what he does on the football field.

Not me. While I admit I find his over-inflated hype to be rather silly ultimately I'm judging him by how he performs as a quarterback and while I agree his team does win with him at QB I find him to be seriously lacking in many of the basics that all QBs should be able to do -- especially ones who have been in the league as long as Vick now has been.

4) This was your quote: "I don't think it's a coincidence that his two playoff defeats have come at the hands of a team that has forced him to be something he has proven he cannot do".

Did you know that since 1995 in the Divisional Game and Conference Championship Game rounds, the home team is 42-18; a .700 winning percentage? Do you think maybe being the away team in those two games had a little bit to do with the Falcons not being able to get by the Eagles in those two games?

The fact is he faced a defense that took away the one thing he does extremely well (scramble) and forced him to try and beat them the way most QBs are asked to win football games (by throwing the ball consistently). He failed miserably both times. Until he is able to do the latter I would expect to see the Falcons endure more playoff defeats should they encounter quality defenses. That's my point.

Did Vick look good in either of those games. No...but Manning has looked pretty poor against the Patriots the last two years in the play-offs and I don't hear too many catcalls about his abilities.

So you've missed all the comments about how Manning "can't win the big one?" Those aren't new by any means.

My overall point is that Vick seems to be the type of player that when the first sign of a flaw starts to show, people point to that as the ultimate turning point and downfall of Vick on his way to quarterbacking the Georgia Force so on the off-chance the wheels do come off, they can say "I told you so" because admittedly, he has his share of staunch supporters as well. That said, I don't see what Vick has done to warrant the sharp criticism he endures from his detractors. It seems a flimsy stance given his record and performance thus far in the NFL.

His record is impressive; his performance hasn't been -- at least not in terms of QB production. I just think he's being placed on a level he hasn't earned yet.

 

[Dancing Bear]

I'm with you 100% packersfan!I want to make one small caveat to your comment. His record is not his record [Yes it is the same for all QB's]. It is the record of 53 players and many staff.The Atlanta Falcons had a hell of a Defense last year. They won at least 3 of those games in spite of Vick. They would have been better if Vick had better than a 50% completion percentage and was able to sustain just a drive or two more a game.Put the Kansas City, Minnesota or Indy Offenses with the Atlanta Defense and you have a strong chance of unseating the Patriots!You really cannot argue that Vick is a good QB compared to his peers when he had 3 games with barely over 100 yards passing; 6 games with barely 150 yards passing and finishes the SEASON with only 11 passing TD's.Culpepper and Manning basically DOUBLED his passing yards!You want to talk winners, then you better bring Favre and Roethlisberger and of course Brady into the conversation!

 

[djcolts]

No...but Manning has looked pretty poor against the Patriots the last two years in the play-offs and I don't hear too many catcalls about his abilities.

Funniest thing I've read all day. :rotflmao: Manning's NEVER been criticized for his playoff performances by anyone on any message board EVER.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

I don't care how a team wins, but if the Falcons are going to take the next step and be a legitimate Super Bowl contender Vick is going to have to do things he has yet to show he can do consistently. In my opinion. And if achieving a certain level of success is all people cared about, Steve Mariucci would still be in S.F.; Denny Green would still be in Minnesota and Tony Dungy would still be in Tampa Bay. The cold, harsh reality is that at some point a team -- and its best players -- have to do more than just win. They have to win big -- especially players making the kind of money Vick is making.

Prior to this season, the Eagles had made 3 NFC Championship games and gone 0-3. I didn't hear any get rid of McNabb talk from the Philly faithful. Vick (and others like McNabb and Manning) produce on the field. The instances you talked about with Mariucci, Green and Dungy have a flaw. Combined they have 0 career NFL passing attempts.

And yet other QBs have been able to generate consistent passing games with less than stellar WRs, including QBs operating in the WCO. I'm not going to rehash all of my points about Vick but when you have a QB who performs on the same level as guys like Vinny Testaverde and Joey Harrington in some ways that should be a cause for concern. Apparently it is something the Falcons are hoping to correct. The Sporting News had a note about how the team wants to see Vick do a better job throwing the ball next season, especially downfield.

Obviously there is no doubt that anyone affiliated with the Falcons wants to see Vick improve as a passer. But to compare Vick's performance to guys like Harrington & Testaverde is akin to showing your ###, even if you qualify your statement by saying "in some ways".

Not me. While I admit I find his over-inflated hype to be rather silly ultimately I'm judging him by how he performs as a quarterback and while I agree his team does win with him at QB I find him to be seriously lacking in many of the basics that all QBs should be able to do -- especially ones who have been in the league as long as Vick now has been.

How can you disagree with "his teams win with him at QB"?. His teams since he's been a starter have gone 21-11-1, without him; 4-11. Are those 11 losses in both categories a coincidence?And you say he is seriously lacking in many basics? Please list them. For a QB whose been in the NFL as long as he has...that's about 2 seasons given his record above. One season in the 2nd round of the NFC playoffs, 1 NFC Championship Game appearance. Any other QB who developed along that path would be lauded for fulfilling his potential. But god forbid...Vick doesn't have a 60% Completion Rate. He should try throwing right handed.You can't talk about how a QB can't win and then dismiss it by saying he lacks basic skills to pass your QB litmus test.

The fact is he faced a defense that took away the one thing he does extremely well (scramble) and forced him to try and beat them the way most QBs are asked to win football games (by throwing the ball consistently). He failed miserably both times. Until he is able to do the latter I would expect to see the Falcons endure more playoff defeats should they encounter quality defenses. That's my point.

Again, when the home team wins 70% of the games in the play-offs from the divisional round on...the deck Vick was playing from is stacked to begin with. But I can't argue with the fact that he has played poorly in those two games. And if you are going to be measured with the greats, that's where you have to perform.

So you've missed all the comments about how Manning "can't win the big one?" Those aren't new by any means.

Questioning Manning's QB ability has never been a point of discussion. Vick's has. You try and hit him with "basic QB skills" arguments. Completely different league and argument path.

His record is impressive; his performance hasn't been -- at least not in terms of QB production. I just think he's being placed on a level he hasn't earned yet.

Again, you talk about QB production. What does that mean? Passing Yards & TD's? This is exactly what I spoke about earlier in terms of trying to measur Vick's value via conventional methods. If the guy doesn't get dinged at the end of the year and the Falcons have the play-off bye clinched with 2 games to go, Vick passes for 2500+ yards and rushes for 1000+ yards. Why is that not production? I don't get it...

 

[packersfan]

I don't care how a team wins, but if the Falcons are going to take the next step and be a legitimate Super Bowl contender Vick is going to have to do things he has yet to show he can do consistently. In my opinion. And if achieving a certain level of success is all people cared about, Steve Mariucci would still be in S.F.; Denny Green would still be in Minnesota and Tony Dungy would still be in Tampa Bay. The cold, harsh reality is that at some point a team -- and its best players -- have to do more than just win. They have to win big -- especially players making the kind of money Vick is making.Prior to this season, the Eagles had made 3 NFC Championship games and gone 0-3. I didn't hear any get rid of McNabb talk from the Philly faithful. Vick (and others like McNabb and Manning) produce on the field. The instances you talked about with Mariucci, Green and Dungy have a flaw. Combined they have 0 career NFL passing attempts.

You're missing the point. You said all that matters are wins. And I'm saying that at some point the expectations become higher. Mooch, Green and Dungy won quite a bit. They made the playoffs nearly every season. But at some point their teams decided that wasn't enough. They needed to win big. The same will hold true with Vick as well just as it's holding true for Manning and his (to this point) inability to get the Colts past New England and into the Super Bowl.

And while McNabb had his share of troubles at times, he has always produced stronger passing numbers than Vick -- and he's had less to work with prior to this season than Vick has had. Well unless you consider James Thrash to be a special WR.

And yet other QBs have been able to generate consistent passing games with less than stellar WRs, including QBs operating in the WCO. I'm not going to rehash all of my points about Vick but when you have a QB who performs on the same level as guys like Vinny Testaverde and Joey Harrington in some ways that should be a cause for concern. Apparently it is something the Falcons are hoping to correct. The Sporting News had a note about how the team wants to see Vick do a better job throwing the ball next season, especially downfield.Obviously there is no doubt that anyone affiliated with the Falcons wants to see Vick improve as a passer. But to compare Vick's performance to guys like Harrington & Testaverde is akin to showing your ###, even if you qualify your statement by saying "in some ways".

It's not showing my a**, it's pointing out the facts. The numbers don't lie. Vick obviously wins more than those guys, but as a passer he is comperable to them in many ways. If that's fine with you, knock yourself out. If I were a Falcons' fan that would concern the hell out of me because Testaverde is a fossil and Harrington (in my opinion) stinks.

Not me. While I admit I find his over-inflated hype to be rather silly ultimately I'm judging him by how he performs as a quarterback and while I agree his team does win with him at QB I find him to be seriously lacking in many of the basics that all QBs should be able to do -- especially ones who have been in the league as long as Vick now has been.How can you disagree with "his teams win with him at QB"?. His teams since he's been a starter have gone 21-11-1, without him; 4-11. Are those 11 losses in both categories a coincidence?

In my opinion they're mainly a byproduct of the team having putrid reserve QBs in 2003. That's something the pro-Vick crowd never wants to acknowledge. You tell me any team in the league that could win with a stiff like Doug Johnson at QB.

And you say he is seriously lacking in many basics? Please list them. For a QB whose been in the NFL as long as he has...that's about 2 seasons given his record above. One season in the 2nd round of the NFC playoffs, 1 NFC Championship Game appearance. Any other QB who developed along that path would be lauded for fulfilling his potential. But god forbid...Vick doesn't have a 60% Completion Rate. He should try throwing right handed.You can't talk about how a QB can't win and then dismiss it by saying he lacks basic skills to pass your QB litmus test.

I've listed them many times, but here's a few off the top of my head:

He has poor mechanics.

He has terrible pocket presence.

He looks to run at the first hint of trouble instead of going through his progressions.

Despite having a strong arm, he's terrible at throwing the ball downfield.

I could think of more but that's a few to get you started.

The fact is he faced a defense that took away the one thing he does extremely well (scramble) and forced him to try and beat them the way most QBs are asked to win football games (by throwing the ball consistently). He failed miserably both times. Until he is able to do the latter I would expect to see the Falcons endure more playoff defeats should they encounter quality defenses. That's my point.Again, when the home team wins 70% of the games in the play-offs from the divisional round on...the deck Vick was playing from is stacked to begin with. But I can't argue with the fact that he has played poorly in those two games. And if you are going to be measured with the greats, that's where you have to perform.

Yup. And until he learns to win games consistently in a "conventional" manner I think the Falcons will suffer more playoff defeats. That's just an opinion but all of the evidence currently is pointing in that direction.

So you've missed all the comments about how Manning "can't win the big one?" Those aren't new by any means.

Questioning Manning's QB ability has never been a point of discussion. Vick's has. You try and hit him with "basic QB skills" arguments. Completely different league and argument path.

I agree. Manning is obviously light years beyond Vick in terms of basic QB fundamentals.

His record is impressive; his performance hasn't been -- at least not in terms of QB production. I just think he's being placed on a level he hasn't earned yet.

Again, you talk about QB production. What does that mean? Passing Yards & TD's? This is exactly what I spoke about earlier in terms of trying to measur Vick's value via conventional methods. If the guy doesn't get dinged at the end of the year and the Falcons have the play-off bye clinched with 2 games to go, Vick passes for 2500+ yards and rushes for 1000+ yards. Why is that not production? I don't get it...

Once again, I agree Vick wins in an "unconventional" manner. But my point is he is going to need to win in a "conventional" manner if he wants to push the Falcons further. He has been placed in that situation twice now in the playoffs and failed miserably. There's a reason he's failed. Now it's up to Vick to understand that reason and work to correct. Let's see if he can.

 

[packersfan]

Sorry about the mess with the quotes. I'm still fuzzy on all that with the new boards. Hopefully you can make out what I'm trying to say there.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

You're missing the point. You said all that matters are wins. And I'm saying that at some point the expectations become higher. Mooch, Green and Dungy won quite a bit. They made the playoffs nearly every season. But at some point their teams decided that wasn't enough. They needed to win big. The same will hold true with Vick as well just as it's holding true for Manning and his (to this point) inability to get the Colts past New England and into the Super Bowl.And while McNabb had his share of troubles at times, he has always produced stronger passing numbers than Vick -- and he's had less to work with prior to this season than Vick has had. Well unless you consider James Thrash to be a special WR.

To me, coaches and QB are apples and oranges. Look at the Colts now...who is their commitment stronger to? Manning or Dungy...no matter what the forthcoming years bring. Manning will/has become the identity of that franchise (during it's Indy stint).

As for the McNabb/Vick comparisons, I think the divide you're implying is much less than you think.

If you take Vick's career as a starter thus far two numbers to take a look at:

Completion Rate: 54.87%

YPA: 6.92

If you look at McNabb in the 4 years prior to getting Terrell Owens:

Completion Rate: 57.91%

YPA: 6.37

1) Andy Reid throws the ball more than Dan Reeves did.

2) McNabb has had the benefit of being in one system his entire career. Not Vick.

3) The difference between Vick's completion rate during his stint as a starter and the time we've used for McNabb is 26 completions. That's the difference between Vick and McNabb from a completion % perspective, less than 1 completion/game. And Vick's YPA is quitw a bit better than McNabb. So I think the notion of McNabb being far superior to Vick in the passing game at similar stages of their career is WAY off base.

In my opinion they're mainly a byproduct of the team having putrid reserve QBs in 2003. That's something the pro-Vick crowd never wants to acknowledge. You tell me any team in the league that could win with a stiff like Doug Johnson at QB.

I watched that season. Were Doug Johnson & Kurt Kittner terrible, yes. Was the rest of the team too? Yes. Did Dan Reeves panic? Yes. Isn't the fact that the entire team fell apart in some way attributed to Vick's abilities? Of course...

I've listed them many times, but here's a few off the top of my head:- He has poor mechanics - who says? They've improved dramatically since he's entered the NFL.

- He has terrible pocket presence - That happens when your O-Line is below average to very poor in pass protection.

- He looks to run at the first hint of trouble instead of going through his progressions - this is actually untrue...he gets himself in trouble many times because he is trying to go through his reads. But when you have Peerless Price giving up on routes time and time again and Brian Finneran trying to create separation with 5.0 speed...your options are limited.

- Despite having a strong arm, he's terrible at throwing the ball downfield - Again, downfield success has alot to do with your WR's.

I could think of more but that's a few to get you started.

Yup. And until he learns to win games consistently in a "conventional" manner I think the Falcons will suffer more playoff defeats. That's just an opinion but all of the evidence currently is pointing in that direction.

What evidence? Two road play-off games? I'd hate to build a solid case on that counselor.

Once again, I agree Vick wins in an "unconventional" manner. But my point is he is going to need to win in a "conventional" manner if he wants to push the Falcons further. He has been placed in that situation twice now in the playoffs and failed miserably. There's a reason he's failed. Now it's up to Vick to understand that reason and work to correct. Let's see if he can.

If two play-off appearances and 1 NFC Conference Championship appearance before the age of 25 is failing miserably, then I think the standard and criteria used to measure Vick is not on par with other QB's. Is Vick all the way there yet in terms of what he can be...no. But his progress has been very encouraging in all aspects of his game and his results are tough to argue with.

 

[rhawkins68]

How can you disagree with "his teams win with him at QB"?. His teams since he's been a starter have gone 21-11-1, without him; 4-11. Are those 11 losses in both categories a coincidence?[\QUOTE]

that's about 2 seasons given his record above[\QUOTE]Why do you ignore the time he has been injured since he has been the starter? His record is more like 26-22 or around there. Since he's taken the starting spot they are running at around .500.

I know you say because he was injured but that matters in the long run. He is paid to start, he is assinged to start and the team is built around that. So his record leading the team should been from when he was announced as the starter.

And you say he is seriously lacking in many basics? Please list them. [\QUOTE]1. Accuracy - he can at times look like he's laser locked but the majority he is off on. Especially it seems on short passes which he seems to have a harder time with. This is something he can work on and will have to work on to run the WCO.

2. Touch - this is probably why he has trouble with the shorter passes but he seems to have no touch. This in my opinion is due to his impatience in the pocket and wanting to run first.

2. Reads - he does not seem to be able to pick-up well on what the defense is adjusting to at the line. Plus he seems to panic and run first.

3. Footwork - essential in the WCO. This should be a focus for the coaches and will get easier as he settles into the offense.

4. Patience - Does not appear to complete his reads. Runs to quickly and seems to get rattled when a defense is pressuring him up the middle.

 

[10993]

The Atlanta Falcons had a hell of a Defense last year. They won at least 3 of those games in spite of Vick.

Why do you idiots insist on perpetuating this?As I said before, their defense is not that great:Falcons defense, pts. against, 2004:#14 in NFL, 21.1 ppgFalcons offense, pts. scored, 2004:#16 in NFL, 21.3 ppgFirst, it's clear that the defense is not carrying that team.Secondly, for a team with such a close margin between points for and against, the difference-making ability of Vick at the end of a close game cannot be overstated.

Culpepper and Manning basically DOUBLED his passing yards!

Wow! So they must have both made the Super Bowl, or at least their leagues' respective championship games, right!?

 

[10993]

And you say he is seriously lacking in many basics? Please list them.

1. Accuracy - he can at times look like he's laser locked but the majority he is off on. Especially it seems on short passes which he seems to have a harder time with. This is something he can work on and will have to work on to run the WCO.2. Touch - this is probably why he has trouble with the shorter passes but he seems to have no touch. This in my opinion is due to his impatience in the pocket and wanting to run first.

2. Reads - he does not seem to be able to pick-up well on what the defense is adjusting to at the line. Plus he seems to panic and run first.

3. Footwork - essential in the WCO. This should be a focus for the coaches and will get easier as he settles into the offense.

4. Patience - Does not appear to complete his reads. Runs to quickly and seems to get rattled when a defense is pressuring him up the middle.

A. You don't know **** about evaluating quarterbacks.B. Your evaluations are mostly wrong--have you been listening to Sean Salisbury a lot lately, or what?

 

[rhawkins68]

And you say he is seriously lacking in many basics? Please list them.

1. Accuracy - he can at times look like he's laser locked but the majority he is off on. Especially it seems on short passes which he seems to have a harder time with. This is something he can work on and will have to work on to run the WCO.2. Touch - this is probably why he has trouble with the shorter passes but he seems to have no touch. This in my opinion is due to his impatience in the pocket and wanting to run first.

2. Reads - he does not seem to be able to pick-up well on what the defense is adjusting to at the line. Plus he seems to panic and run first.

3. Footwork - essential in the WCO. This should be a focus for the coaches and will get easier as he settles into the offense.

4. Patience - Does not appear to complete his reads. Runs to quickly and seems to get rattled when a defense is pressuring him up the middle.

A. You don't know **** about evaluating quarterbacks.B. Your evaluations are mostly wrong--have you been listening to Sean Salisbury a lot lately, or what?

Cool. A personal attack is the only opinion you have.

 

[10993]

And you say he is seriously lacking in many basics? Please list them.

1. Accuracy - he can at times look like he's laser locked but the majority he is off on. Especially it seems on short passes which he seems to have a harder time with. This is something he can work on and will have to work on to run the WCO.2. Touch - this is probably why he has trouble with the shorter passes but he seems to have no touch. This in my opinion is due to his impatience in the pocket and wanting to run first.

2. Reads - he does not seem to be able to pick-up well on what the defense is adjusting to at the line. Plus he seems to panic and run first.

3. Footwork - essential in the WCO. This should be a focus for the coaches and will get easier as he settles into the offense.

4. Patience - Does not appear to complete his reads. Runs to quickly and seems to get rattled when a defense is pressuring him up the middle.

A. You don't know **** about evaluating quarterbacks.B. Your evaluations are mostly wrong--have you been listening to Sean Salisbury a lot lately, or what?

Cool. A personal attack is the only opinion you have.

How is that a personal attack? Your job is--what? Typing ####? Middle managing?Your experience with football ends where--high school?

How many years have you been a quarterbacks coach?

It's one thing for all the idiots here to toss out their opinion about players for their fantasy futures etc. I guess you could say a lot of people here are "experts" at that. But not one single person in this thread responded to the example I offered to help dumb it down for you guys and explain, specifically, how Mike Vick was a difference-maker for the Falcons in the playoffs.

But pretty much, you don't know **** about evaluating QBs, so any guppy walking in here shouldn't take your worthless evaluation to heart. The only one that was close to right on was patience--he has trouble with fulfilling the progression and also finding the checkdown.

 

[rhawkins68]

And you say he is seriously lacking in many basics? Please list them.

1. Accuracy - he can at times look like he's laser locked but the majority he is off on. Especially it seems on short passes which he seems to have a harder time with. This is something he can work on and will have to work on to run the WCO.2. Touch - this is probably why he has trouble with the shorter passes but he seems to have no touch. This in my opinion is due to his impatience in the pocket and wanting to run first.

2. Reads - he does not seem to be able to pick-up well on what the defense is adjusting to at the line. Plus he seems to panic and run first.

3. Footwork - essential in the WCO. This should be a focus for the coaches and will get easier as he settles into the offense.

4. Patience - Does not appear to complete his reads. Runs to quickly and seems to get rattled when a defense is pressuring him up the middle.

A. You don't know **** about evaluating quarterbacks.B. Your evaluations are mostly wrong--have you been listening to Sean Salisbury a lot lately, or what?

Cool. A personal attack is the only opinion you have.

How is that a personal attack? Your job is--what? Typing ####? Middle managing?Your experience with football ends where--high school?

How many years have you been a quarterbacks coach?

It's one thing for all the idiots here to toss out their opinion about players for their fantasy futures etc. I guess you could say a lot of people here are "experts" at that. But not one single person in this thread responded to the example I offered to help dumb it down for you guys and explain, specifically, how Mike Vick was a difference-maker for the Falcons in the playoffs.

But pretty much, you don't know **** about evaluating QBs, so any guppy walking in here shouldn't take your worthless evaluation to heart. The only one that was close to right on was patience--he has trouble with fulfilling the progression and also finding the checkdown.

Once again with personal attacks versus facts against what I said. Please leave the personall attacks out when you have no clue what I do or my experience. You might disagree but please do so with facts if you can versus nonsense aggression.So once again.

You telling me his is accurate and has good touch?

Let sees' completion % around 27th in league. If you watch film you'll see he is not a good passer especially on shorter out routes. Heck, watch how bad he did at the QB challenge this year.

You appear to agree with me on patience then go on to agree with him having trouble on fulfilling progressions and checkdowns. Which are part of his post snap reads. I also believe he has pre-snap read problems also.

So your telling me has has good footwork or it's not the most important thing in the WCO?

His footwork needs improvement to run the WCO offense period. Go do your research if you do not think footwork is huge in the WCO. Holmgrem is a stickler for it as was Walsh. Go back and review tape of Farve Holmgrem vs Sherman and watch how his footwork has went down hill.

I also left out he does not take care of the ball very well which is another negative.

F

 

[10993]

Once again with personal attacks versus facts against what I said. Please leave the personall attacks out when you have no clue what I do or my experience.

Questioning your qualifications to make the bunk judgments you're making is not a personal attack. It's an attack on the credability of your statements. You have no basis for knowing what good QBs do or don't do, and as such, almost all of what you're typed reads like a transcript of a Sean Salisbury rant rather than an analysis of anything useful.Vick does have a few problems as a passer (though most of your "anaylsis" was wrong). Regardless, he's one of the best 5 QBs in the league, if the QB's job description is to help his team win. If you don't get that, I don't give a ####--it doesn't change things.

 

[jurb26]

You have no basis for knowing what good QBs do or don't do, and as such, almost all of what you're typed reads like a transcript of a Sean Salisbury rant rather than an analysis of anything useful.

.....and you know this how? There is absolutily NO BASIS for this statement. Do you know him and his lifes work/experiences? I highly doubt it. He actually gave reasons and logic for his thoughts though, which you have still left out.

 

[rhawkins68]

Once again with personal attacks versus facts against what I said. Please leave the personall attacks out when you have no clue what I do or my experience.

Questioning your qualifications to make the bunk judgments you're making is not a personal attack. It's an attack on the credability of your statements. You have no basis for knowing what good QBs do or don't do, and as such, almost all of what you're typed reads like a transcript of a Sean Salisbury rant rather than an analysis of anything useful.Vick does have a few problems as a passer (though most of your "anaylsis" was wrong). Regardless, he's one of the best 5 QBs in the league, if the QB's job description is to help his team win. If you don't get that, I don't give a ####--it doesn't change things.

Once again no facts but now you agree he has read issues and passing issues.So at least we are close to the same page here. If most of my anaylsis was wrong please point out where it was. I am open to discussing it. Exactly what are his issues passing if not what I said?

Now let's talk footwork. Do you believe he has good or bad footwork in the pocket? Do you agree or disagree it is one of the most crucial things for a QB in the WCO?

 

[10993]

Once again with personal attacks versus facts against what I said. Please leave the personall attacks out when you have no clue what I do or my experience.

Questioning your qualifications to make the bunk judgments you're making is not a personal attack. It's an attack on the credability of your statements. You have no basis for knowing what good QBs do or don't do, and as such, almost all of what you're typed reads like a transcript of a Sean Salisbury rant rather than an analysis of anything useful.Vick does have a few problems as a passer (though most of your "anaylsis" was wrong). Regardless, he's one of the best 5 QBs in the league, if the QB's job description is to help his team win. If you don't get that, I don't give a ####--it doesn't change things.

Once again no facts but now you agree he has read issues and passing issues.So at least we are close to the same page here. If most of my anaylsis was wrong please point out where it was. I am open to discussing it. Exactly what are his issues passing if not what I said?

Now let's talk footwork. Do you believe he has good or bad footwork in the pocket? Do you agree or disagree it is one of the most crucial things for a QB in the WCO?

Jesus--I'm not going to teach you NFL Quarterbacking 101. You guys still don't get what Vick's non-passing abilities bring to the table, either. Until someone who knows football offers up any refutation to what I said about the run in the Rams game, I'm done defending Vick to a bunch of middle managers.

 

[jurb26]

Once again with personal attacks versus facts against what I said.  Please leave the personall attacks out when you have no clue what I do or my experience. 

Questioning your qualifications to make the bunk judgments you're making is not a personal attack. It's an attack on the credability of your statements. You have no basis for knowing what good QBs do or don't do, and as such, almost all of what you're typed reads like a transcript of a Sean Salisbury rant rather than an analysis of anything useful.Vick does have a few problems as a passer (though most of your "anaylsis" was wrong). Regardless, he's one of the best 5 QBs in the league, if the QB's job description is to help his team win. If you don't get that, I don't give a ####--it doesn't change things.

Once again no facts but now you agree he has read issues and passing issues.So at least we are close to the same page here. If most of my anaylsis was wrong please point out where it was. I am open to discussing it. Exactly what are his issues passing if not what I said?

Now let's talk footwork. Do you believe he has good or bad footwork in the pocket? Do you agree or disagree it is one of the most crucial things for a QB in the WCO?

Jesus--I'm not going to teach you NFL Quarterbacking 101. You guys still don't get what Vick's non-passing abilities bring to the table, either. Until someone who knows football offers up any refutation to what I said about the run in the Rams game, I'm done defending Vick to a bunch of middle managers.

I just don't understand this. His critisism was not about his NONpassing attributes. It was about his PASSING ones!

 

[10993]

Once again with personal attacks versus facts against what I said. Please leave the personall attacks out when you have no clue what I do or my experience.

Questioning your qualifications to make the bunk judgments you're making is not a personal attack. It's an attack on the credability of your statements. You have no basis for knowing what good QBs do or don't do, and as such, almost all of what you're typed reads like a transcript of a Sean Salisbury rant rather than an analysis of anything useful.Vick does have a few problems as a passer (though most of your "anaylsis" was wrong). Regardless, he's one of the best 5 QBs in the league, if the QB's job description is to help his team win. If you don't get that, I don't give a ####--it doesn't change things.

Once again no facts but now you agree he has read issues and passing issues.So at least we are close to the same page here. If most of my anaylsis was wrong please point out where it was. I am open to discussing it. Exactly what are his issues passing if not what I said?

Now let's talk footwork. Do you believe he has good or bad footwork in the pocket? Do you agree or disagree it is one of the most crucial things for a QB in the WCO?

Jesus--I'm not going to teach you NFL Quarterbacking 101. You guys still don't get what Vick's non-passing abilities bring to the table, either. Until someone who knows football offers up any refutation to what I said about the run in the Rams game, I'm done defending Vick to a bunch of middle managers.

I just don't understand this. His critisism was not about his NONpassing attributes. It was about his PASSING ones!

Yes--and most of those were wrong as well. The larger point was that Vick is not that great of a QB, and that's the main one of the thread that I refuted.

 

[jurb26]

Once again with personal attacks versus facts against what I said.  Please leave the personall attacks out when you have no clue what I do or my experience. 

Questioning your qualifications to make the bunk judgments you're making is not a personal attack. It's an attack on the credability of your statements. You have no basis for knowing what good QBs do or don't do, and as such, almost all of what you're typed reads like a transcript of a Sean Salisbury rant rather than an analysis of anything useful.Vick does have a few problems as a passer (though most of your "anaylsis" was wrong). Regardless, he's one of the best 5 QBs in the league, if the QB's job description is to help his team win. If you don't get that, I don't give a ####--it doesn't change things.

Once again no facts but now you agree he has read issues and passing issues.So at least we are close to the same page here. If most of my anaylsis was wrong please point out where it was. I am open to discussing it. Exactly what are his issues passing if not what I said?

Now let's talk footwork. Do you believe he has good or bad footwork in the pocket? Do you agree or disagree it is one of the most crucial things for a QB in the WCO?

Jesus--I'm not going to teach you NFL Quarterbacking 101. You guys still don't get what Vick's non-passing abilities bring to the table, either. Until someone who knows football offers up any refutation to what I said about the run in the Rams game, I'm done defending Vick to a bunch of middle managers.

I just don't understand this. His critisism was not about his NONpassing attributes. It was about his PASSING ones!

Yes--and most of those were wrong as well. The larger point was that Vick is not that great of a QB, and that's the main one of the thread that I refuted.

So you think Vick is a good passer? Please define for us then what your criteria is for a good passer at the NFL level and how Vick qualifies. Will wait anxiously to hear this......

 

[10993]

Once again with personal attacks versus facts against what I said. Please leave the personall attacks out when you have no clue what I do or my experience.

Questioning your qualifications to make the bunk judgments you're making is not a personal attack. It's an attack on the credability of your statements. You have no basis for knowing what good QBs do or don't do, and as such, almost all of what you're typed reads like a transcript of a Sean Salisbury rant rather than an analysis of anything useful.Vick does have a few problems as a passer (though most of your "anaylsis" was wrong). Regardless, he's one of the best 5 QBs in the league, if the QB's job description is to help his team win. If you don't get that, I don't give a ####--it doesn't change things.

Once again no facts but now you agree he has read issues and passing issues.So at least we are close to the same page here. If most of my anaylsis was wrong please point out where it was. I am open to discussing it. Exactly what are his issues passing if not what I said?

Now let's talk footwork. Do you believe he has good or bad footwork in the pocket? Do you agree or disagree it is one of the most crucial things for a QB in the WCO?

Jesus--I'm not going to teach you NFL Quarterbacking 101. You guys still don't get what Vick's non-passing abilities bring to the table, either. Until someone who knows football offers up any refutation to what I said about the run in the Rams game, I'm done defending Vick to a bunch of middle managers.

I just don't understand this. His critisism was not about his NONpassing attributes. It was about his PASSING ones!

Yes--and most of those were wrong as well. The larger point was that Vick is not that great of a QB, and that's the main one of the thread that I refuted.

So you think Vick is a good passer? Please define for us then what your criteria is for a good passer at the NFL level and how Vick qualifies. Will wait anxiously to hear this......

Vick is a very good passer. He has a good arm, good instincts, throws well while on the move, and is improving his accuracy every year. The majority of his problems last year were system problems. That's why he had trouble with progressions and finding checkdowns. It's a difficult system to learn, far more difficult than the NFL Network 5-minute summary of "hey, take a couple steps back and hit a WR on a timing pattern" that you guys seem to think it is. Vick's also not the brightest guy in the whole world, so he's not going to learn it overnight. But as a QB he is amazing, as a passer he is solid, and as he learns the system better and gets a decent supporting cast (the only good weapon he has is Crumpler) he will become far more effective because he already has the tools and skills.

 

[packersfan]

Rather than quoting everything and maybe screwing that all up I'll try to simplify things a bit. Let's see if that works:

To me, coaches and QB are apples and oranges.  Look at the Colts now...who is their commitment stronger to?  Manning or Dungy...no matter what the forthcoming years bring.  Manning will/has become the identity of that franchise (during it's Indy stint).

As for the McNabb/Vick comparisons, I think the divide you're implying is much less than you think.

If you take Vick's career as a starter thus far two numbers to take a look at:

Completion Rate: 54.87%

YPA: 6.92

If you look at McNabb in the 4 years prior to getting Terrell Owens:

Completion Rate: 57.91%

YPA: 6.37

1)  Andy Reid throws the ball more than Dan Reeves did.

2)  McNabb has had the benefit of being in one system his entire career.  Not Vick.

3)  The difference between Vick's completion rate during his stint as a starter and the time we've used for McNabb is 26 completions.  That's the difference between Vick and McNabb from a completion % perspective, less than 1 completion/game.  And Vick's YPA is quitw a bit better than McNabb.  So I think the notion of McNabb being far superior to Vick in the passing game at similar stages of their career is WAY off base.

Reid may have passed more than Reeves but he also had a QB who was more successful throwing the ball. From 1999-2003, McNabb averaged 20 TD passes per season, and that's including a year when he missed 6 games and was on pace (yes I know) for 27 TD passes. Show me a single season when Vick has even come anywhere near those numbers. Oh and McNabb obviously was extremely successful running the ball for most of that time as well. So it's not like he was strictly a pocket passer.

I watched that season.  Were Doug Johnson & Kurt Kittner terrible, yes.  Was the rest of the team too?  Yes.  Did Dan Reeves panic? Yes.  Isn't the fact that the entire team fell apart in some way attributed to Vick's abilities?  Of course...

I'd be willing to bet that if the Falcons had a remotely decent backup QB they would not have lost so many games. Again, show me a single team where slugs like Johnson and Kittner are going to lead teams to victories. I'd love to see the list.

-  He has poor mechanics - who says?  They've improved dramatically since he's entered the NFL.

-  He has terrible pocket presence - That happens when your O-Line is below average to very poor in pass protection.

-  He looks to run at the first hint of trouble instead of going through his progressions - this is actually untrue...he gets himself in trouble many times because he is trying to go through his reads.  But when you have Peerless Price giving up on routes time and time again and Brian Finneran trying to create separation with 5.0 speed...your options are limited.

-  Despite having a strong arm, he's terrible at throwing the ball downfield - Again, downfield success has alot to do with your WR's.

I stand by the points I've made. Yes they're personal opinion but I stand by them. And blaming the WRs only goes so far. As I've said McNabb has had worse WRs to work with and so have other QBs who have performed better than Vick and found ways to generate a consistent passing game.

What evidence?  Two road play-off games?  I'd hate to build a solid case on that counselor.

Small sample size but extremely revealing in my opinion. Oh and he didn't play all that great in the win at Lambeau either. Yes he won, but that victory was due more to the Packers completely melting down more than anything Vick did.

If two play-off appearances and 1 NFC Conference Championship appearance before the age of 25 is failing miserably, then I think the standard and criteria used to measure Vick is not on par with other QB's.  Is Vick all the way there yet in terms of what he can be...no.  But his progress has been very encouraging in all aspects of his game and his results are tough to argue with.

I wish I could agree. I don't dispute the fact that his victory percentage is impressive but I just didn't see the improvements as a QB I expected to see last season. I saw him making the same mistakes at the end of the season that he was making early in the year. I'm just not impressed with him as a QB. I am impressed with the things he does well, but I'm not backing off my belief he must do more if this team is going to become better and for him to deserve all of the praise he is getting.

 

[rhawkins68]

Once again with personal attacks versus facts against what I said. Please leave the personall attacks out when you have no clue what I do or my experience.

Questioning your qualifications to make the bunk judgments you're making is not a personal attack. It's an attack on the credability of your statements. You have no basis for knowing what good QBs do or don't do, and as such, almost all of what you're typed reads like a transcript of a Sean Salisbury rant rather than an analysis of anything useful.Vick does have a few problems as a passer (though most of your "anaylsis" was wrong). Regardless, he's one of the best 5 QBs in the league, if the QB's job description is to help his team win. If you don't get that, I don't give a ####--it doesn't change things.

Once again no facts but now you agree he has read issues and passing issues.So at least we are close to the same page here. If most of my anaylsis was wrong please point out where it was. I am open to discussing it. Exactly what are his issues passing if not what I said?

Now let's talk footwork. Do you believe he has good or bad footwork in the pocket? Do you agree or disagree it is one of the most crucial things for a QB in the WCO?

Jesus--I'm not going to teach you NFL Quarterbacking 101. You guys still don't get what Vick's non-passing abilities bring to the table, either. Until someone who knows football offers up any refutation to what I said about the run in the Rams game, I'm done defending Vick to a bunch of middle managers.

I find it laugable that you do not care to explain your position but instead offer not to give us a QB 101. The fact your basing your sole argument off of one play in one game is suspect. Not to mention a play against a .500 team with a very weak defense.

So let me ask you some questions about your scenerio. I am assuming the 60 yd run early in the game

What setup the play?

Wasn't it about 10 plays into the game?

Had Vick shown the ability to burn them on the pass?

Had Vick shown the ability to burn them running?

If they were lining someone up as a Spy who was covering the spys gap

If there was a blown gap assignment why?

Did a wide-out pull him out of the gap?

What was the defensive formation

What was the offensive formation

What was the hole # he ran through

Was there an over balance at the point of attack in favor of Atl.

Who was used to give the over balance

Who had gap assignment for that hole for Stl.

Was Stl blitzing? If so how?

Had Stl been blitzing gaps against the run

Now once you get good answers for these we can break the play down some more.

 

[rhawkins68]

t's a difficult system to learn, far more difficult than the NFL Network 5-minute summary of "hey, take a couple steps back and hit a WR on a timing pattern" that you guys seem to think it is.

No one said it's not a diffuclt system. But he still has the same issues. They are all something he can work out. Footwork is essential in the WCO and Vick still need to work on it. It's funny you mention the drop back which is critical (Footwork) and the first thing the coaches wanted to work on when he was signed. He has improved but still has a ways to go.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

The Atlanta Falcons had a hell of a Defense last year.  They won at least 3 of those games in spite of Vick.

Why do you idiots insist on perpetuating this?As I said before, their defense is not that great:

Falcons defense, pts. against, 2004:

#14 in NFL, 21.1 ppg

Falcons offense, pts. scored, 2004:

#16 in NFL, 21.3 ppg

First, it's clear that the defense is not carrying that team.

Secondly, for a team with such a close margin between points for and against, the difference-making ability of Vick at the end of a close game cannot be overstated.

Culpepper and Manning basically DOUBLED his passing yards!

Wow! So they must have both made the Super Bowl, or at least their leagues' respective championship games, right!?

So let me get this straight. You are saying even though Vicks numbers are not that great he still wins games for them. Well, then you must think in the same concept for Atl's defense who had won games for them this year even though they may have only been ranked # 14.

My point is Vick gets more credit then he deserves for Atl being an all around good football team.

Vick is good, fun to watch and a special player that causes defenses many problems. I just believe some people on here hold him on a pedastel when cleary he has not done enough to warrant being there yet.

He is proven he can be the starter on a good f'ball team and make the playoffs but so have other guys as was described with Kordel Stewart.

I also liked the post describing that since M.Vick has been the starter people exclude the games he is injured in and not playing yet he is getting starter money sitting on the sidelines hurt. How many games do GREAT QB's miss b/c of injury???? I don't think it is much as Vicks ratio is so early in his career. Sometimes injuries are freak accidents but with the style M.Vick plays with as a QB he is going to be injured more then your other "great QB's."

Doug Flutie was exciting, scrambled, had a spy watching him, proved he could win games. Maybe we should be comparing M.Vick to Doug Flutie. :rotflmao:

M. Vick is a good QB but he has not even lead his team to the playoffs in 2 consecutive years yet and people think he is Godly.

This year will be a good determinent of how good M.Vick really is.

 

[lipster26]

The Atlanta Falcons had a hell of a Defense last year. They won at least 3 of those games in spite of Vick.

Why do you idiots insist on perpetuating this?As I said before, their defense is not that great:

Falcons defense, pts. against, 2004:

#14 in NFL, 21.1 ppg

Falcons offense, pts. scored, 2004:

#16 in NFL, 21.3 ppg

First, it's clear that the defense is not carrying that team.

Secondly, for a team with such a close margin between points for and against, the difference-making ability of Vick at the end of a close game cannot be overstated.

Culpepper and Manning basically DOUBLED his passing yards!

Wow! So they must have both made the Super Bowl, or at least their leagues' respective championship games, right!?

So let me get this straight. You are saying even though Vicks numbers are not that great he still wins games for them. Well, then you must think in the same concept for Atl's defense who had won games for them this year even though they may have only been ranked # 14.

My point is Vick gets more credit then he deserves for Atl being an all around good football team.

Vick is good, fun to watch and a special player that causes defenses many problems. I just believe some people on here hold him on a pedastel when cleary he has not done enough to warrant being there yet.

He is proven he can be the starter on a good f'ball team and make the playoffs but so have other guys as was described with Kordel Stewart.

I also liked the post describing that since M.Vick has been the starter people exclude the games he is injured in and not playing yet he is getting starter money sitting on the sidelines hurt. How many games do GREAT QB's miss b/c of injury???? I don't think it is much as Vicks ratio is so early in his career. Sometimes injuries are freak accidents but with the style M.Vick plays with as a QB he is going to be injured more then your other "great QB's."

Doug Flutie was exciting, scrambled, had a spy watching him, proved he could win games. Maybe we should be comparing M.Vick to Doug Flutie. :rotflmao:

M. Vick is a good QB but he has not even lead his team to the playoffs in 2 consecutive years yet and people think he is Godly.

This year will be a good determinent of how good M.Vick really is.

Ok, so let's take a hypothetical situation.Take Vick's marketability out of the question. Don't think about it.

You are the Falcons GM you get a trade offer: Vick for any Qb other than Manning, Favre, Culpepper, Brady and McNabb. Straight up. Do you do the trade? And explain your answer.

 

[jurb26]

The Atlanta Falcons had a hell of a Defense last year.  They won at least 3 of those games in spite of Vick.

Why do you idiots insist on perpetuating this?As I said before, their defense is not that great:

Falcons defense, pts. against, 2004:

#14 in NFL, 21.1 ppg

Falcons offense, pts. scored, 2004:

#16 in NFL, 21.3 ppg

First, it's clear that the defense is not carrying that team.

Secondly, for a team with such a close margin between points for and against, the difference-making ability of Vick at the end of a close game cannot be overstated.

Culpepper and Manning basically DOUBLED his passing yards!

Wow! So they must have both made the Super Bowl, or at least their leagues' respective championship games, right!?

So let me get this straight. You are saying even though Vicks numbers are not that great he still wins games for them. Well, then you must think in the same concept for Atl's defense who had won games for them this year even though they may have only been ranked # 14.

My point is Vick gets more credit then he deserves for Atl being an all around good football team.

Vick is good, fun to watch and a special player that causes defenses many problems. I just believe some people on here hold him on a pedastel when cleary he has not done enough to warrant being there yet.

He is proven he can be the starter on a good f'ball team and make the playoffs but so have other guys as was described with Kordel Stewart.

I also liked the post describing that since M.Vick has been the starter people exclude the games he is injured in and not playing yet he is getting starter money sitting on the sidelines hurt. How many games do GREAT QB's miss b/c of injury???? I don't think it is much as Vicks ratio is so early in his career. Sometimes injuries are freak accidents but with the style M.Vick plays with as a QB he is going to be injured more then your other "great QB's."

Doug Flutie was exciting, scrambled, had a spy watching him, proved he could win games. Maybe we should be comparing M.Vick to Doug Flutie. :rotflmao:

M. Vick is a good QB but he has not even lead his team to the playoffs in 2 consecutive years yet and people think he is Godly.

This year will be a good determinent of how good M.Vick really is.

Ok, so let's take a hypothetical situation.Take Vick's marketability out of the question. Don't think about it.

You are the Falcons GM you get a trade offer: Vick for any Qb other than Manning, Favre, Culpepper, Brady and McNabb. Straight up. Do you do the trade?

Yes, I would still take:Ben Roeth

Green

Hassy

and Maybe Brees

 

[packersfan]

The Atlanta Falcons had a hell of a Defense last year.  They won at least 3 of those games in spite of Vick.

Why do you idiots insist on perpetuating this?As I said before, their defense is not that great:

Falcons defense, pts. against, 2004:

#14 in NFL, 21.1 ppg

Falcons offense, pts. scored, 2004:

#16 in NFL, 21.3 ppg

First, it's clear that the defense is not carrying that team.

Secondly, for a team with such a close margin between points for and against, the difference-making ability of Vick at the end of a close game cannot be overstated.

Culpepper and Manning basically DOUBLED his passing yards!

Wow! So they must have both made the Super Bowl, or at least their leagues' respective championship games, right!?

So let me get this straight. You are saying even though Vicks numbers are not that great he still wins games for them. Well, then you must think in the same concept for Atl's defense who had won games for them this year even though they may have only been ranked # 14.

My point is Vick gets more credit then he deserves for Atl being an all around good football team.

Vick is good, fun to watch and a special player that causes defenses many problems. I just believe some people on here hold him on a pedastel when cleary he has not done enough to warrant being there yet.

He is proven he can be the starter on a good f'ball team and make the playoffs but so have other guys as was described with Kordel Stewart.

I also liked the post describing that since M.Vick has been the starter people exclude the games he is injured in and not playing yet he is getting starter money sitting on the sidelines hurt. How many games do GREAT QB's miss b/c of injury???? I don't think it is much as Vicks ratio is so early in his career. Sometimes injuries are freak accidents but with the style M.Vick plays with as a QB he is going to be injured more then your other "great QB's."

Doug Flutie was exciting, scrambled, had a spy watching him, proved he could win games. Maybe we should be comparing M.Vick to Doug Flutie. :rotflmao:

M. Vick is a good QB but he has not even lead his team to the playoffs in 2 consecutive years yet and people think he is Godly.

This year will be a good determinent of how good M.Vick really is.

Ok, so let's take a hypothetical situation.Take Vick's marketability out of the question. Don't think about it.

You are the Falcons GM you get a trade offer: Vick for any Qb other than Manning, Favre, Culpepper, Brady and McNabb. Straight up. Do you do the trade?

Yes, I would still take:Ben Roeth

Green

Hassy

and Maybe Brees

It's too soon for me to include Roethlisberger or Brees. I want to see them have more than one good season. But all of the pro-Vick fans who say all Vick does is "win" should jump at the chance to get Roethlisberger for the very same reason (not to mention he's also younger).So for now I'd remove Roethlisberger and Brees and replace them with Delhomme. I think he's one of the most under-rated QBs in the league and the guy very nearly won a Super Bowl which makes him flying under the radar even more surprising in my opinion.

Edited to add the question for me wouldn't be "Would you trade these guys for Vick," but rather "Could any of these QBs have the same type of success as Vick or possibly better?" I think a number of them could without a doubt.

 

[lipster26]

The Atlanta Falcons had a hell of a Defense last year. They won at least 3 of those games in spite of Vick.

Why do you idiots insist on perpetuating this?As I said before, their defense is not that great:

Falcons defense, pts. against, 2004:

#14 in NFL, 21.1 ppg

Falcons offense, pts. scored, 2004:

#16 in NFL, 21.3 ppg

First, it's clear that the defense is not carrying that team.

Secondly, for a team with such a close margin between points for and against, the difference-making ability of Vick at the end of a close game cannot be overstated.

Culpepper and Manning basically DOUBLED his passing yards!

Wow! So they must have both made the Super Bowl, or at least their leagues' respective championship games, right!?

So let me get this straight. You are saying even though Vicks numbers are not that great he still wins games for them. Well, then you must think in the same concept for Atl's defense who had won games for them this year even though they may have only been ranked # 14.

My point is Vick gets more credit then he deserves for Atl being an all around good football team.

Vick is good, fun to watch and a special player that causes defenses many problems. I just believe some people on here hold him on a pedastel when cleary he has not done enough to warrant being there yet.

He is proven he can be the starter on a good f'ball team and make the playoffs but so have other guys as was described with Kordel Stewart.

I also liked the post describing that since M.Vick has been the starter people exclude the games he is injured in and not playing yet he is getting starter money sitting on the sidelines hurt. How many games do GREAT QB's miss b/c of injury???? I don't think it is much as Vicks ratio is so early in his career. Sometimes injuries are freak accidents but with the style M.Vick plays with as a QB he is going to be injured more then your other "great QB's."

Doug Flutie was exciting, scrambled, had a spy watching him, proved he could win games. Maybe we should be comparing M.Vick to Doug Flutie. :rotflmao:

M. Vick is a good QB but he has not even lead his team to the playoffs in 2 consecutive years yet and people think he is Godly.

This year will be a good determinent of how good M.Vick really is.

Ok, so let's take a hypothetical situation.Take Vick's marketability out of the question. Don't think about it.

You are the Falcons GM you get a trade offer: Vick for any Qb other than Manning, Favre, Culpepper, Brady and McNabb. Straight up. Do you do the trade?

Yes, I would still take:Ben Roeth

Green

Hassy

and Maybe Brees

It's too soon for me to include Roethlisberger or Brees. I want to see them have more than one good season. But all of the pro-Vick fans who say all Vick does is "win" should jump at the chance to get Roethlisberger for the very same reason (not to mention he's also younger).So for now I'd remove Roethlisberger and Brees and replace them with Delhomme. I think he's one of the most under-rated QBs in the league and the guy very nearly won a Super Bowl which makes him flying under the radar even more surprising in my opinion.

Edited to add the question for me wouldn't be "Would you trade these guys for Vick," but rather "Could any of these QBs have the same type of success as Vick or possibly better?" I think a number of them could without a doubt.

You've got a point about Roth, but you could also argue that he had a much better Team than the entire NFL excluding the Patriots. While saying Vick's Team was that good may be questionable.

 

[fatgirlsrock]

The Atlanta Falcons had a hell of a Defense last year. They won at least 3 of those games in spite of Vick.

Why do you idiots insist on perpetuating this?As I said before, their defense is not that great:

Falcons defense, pts. against, 2004:

#14 in NFL, 21.1 ppg

Falcons offense, pts. scored, 2004:

#16 in NFL, 21.3 ppg

First, it's clear that the defense is not carrying that team.

Secondly, for a team with such a close margin between points for and against, the difference-making ability of Vick at the end of a close game cannot be overstated.

Culpepper and Manning basically DOUBLED his passing yards!

Wow! So they must have both made the Super Bowl, or at least their leagues' respective championship games, right!?

So let me get this straight. You are saying even though Vicks numbers are not that great he still wins games for them. Well, then you must think in the same concept for Atl's defense who had won games for them this year even though they may have only been ranked # 14.

My point is Vick gets more credit then he deserves for Atl being an all around good football team.

Vick is good, fun to watch and a special player that causes defenses many problems. I just believe some people on here hold him on a pedastel when cleary he has not done enough to warrant being there yet.

He is proven he can be the starter on a good f'ball team and make the playoffs but so have other guys as was described with Kordel Stewart.

I also liked the post describing that since M.Vick has been the starter people exclude the games he is injured in and not playing yet he is getting starter money sitting on the sidelines hurt. How many games do GREAT QB's miss b/c of injury???? I don't think it is much as Vicks ratio is so early in his career. Sometimes injuries are freak accidents but with the style M.Vick plays with as a QB he is going to be injured more then your other "great QB's."

Doug Flutie was exciting, scrambled, had a spy watching him, proved he could win games. Maybe we should be comparing M.Vick to Doug Flutie. :rotflmao:

M. Vick is a good QB but he has not even lead his team to the playoffs in 2 consecutive years yet and people think he is Godly.

This year will be a good determinent of how good M.Vick really is.

Ok, so let's take a hypothetical situation.Take Vick's marketability out of the question. Don't think about it.

You are the Falcons GM you get a trade offer: Vick for any Qb other than Manning, Favre, Culpepper, Brady and McNabb. Straight up. Do you do the trade?

Yes, I would still take:Ben Roeth

Green

Hassy

and Maybe Brees

Thank god your not a real NFL GM for Atlanta. Those would be the worst trades in the history of the league. I guess you could possibly make an argument for Big Ben, but the others would be a joke.An old QB like Trent Green over Vick, are you crazy?

Or do you just mean for this coming year, even then it's nuts to think Trent Green would take the Falcons farther than Vick.

A QB's job is to sustain drives and win games, something Vick does as well or better than most any QB in the league. I don't care if he only throws for 5 yards, if he wins that's all that matters.

The team with the most stats does not get the lombardi trophy, the team that wins does.

Think REAL NFL, not FF stats.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

The Atlanta Falcons had a hell of a Defense last year.  They won at least 3 of those games in spite of Vick.

Why do you idiots insist on perpetuating this?As I said before, their defense is not that great:

Falcons defense, pts. against, 2004:

#14 in NFL, 21.1 ppg

Falcons offense, pts. scored, 2004:

#16 in NFL, 21.3 ppg

First, it's clear that the defense is not carrying that team.

Secondly, for a team with such a close margin between points for and against, the difference-making ability of Vick at the end of a close game cannot be overstated.

Culpepper and Manning basically DOUBLED his passing yards!

Wow! So they must have both made the Super Bowl, or at least their leagues' respective championship games, right!?

So let me get this straight. You are saying even though Vicks numbers are not that great he still wins games for them. Well, then you must think in the same concept for Atl's defense who had won games for them this year even though they may have only been ranked # 14.

My point is Vick gets more credit then he deserves for Atl being an all around good football team.

Vick is good, fun to watch and a special player that causes defenses many problems. I just believe some people on here hold him on a pedastel when cleary he has not done enough to warrant being there yet.

He is proven he can be the starter on a good f'ball team and make the playoffs but so have other guys as was described with Kordel Stewart.

I also liked the post describing that since M.Vick has been the starter people exclude the games he is injured in and not playing yet he is getting starter money sitting on the sidelines hurt. How many games do GREAT QB's miss b/c of injury???? I don't think it is much as Vicks ratio is so early in his career. Sometimes injuries are freak accidents but with the style M.Vick plays with as a QB he is going to be injured more then your other "great QB's."

Doug Flutie was exciting, scrambled, had a spy watching him, proved he could win games. Maybe we should be comparing M.Vick to Doug Flutie. :rotflmao:

M. Vick is a good QB but he has not even lead his team to the playoffs in 2 consecutive years yet and people think he is Godly.

This year will be a good determinent of how good M.Vick really is.

Ok, so let's take a hypothetical situation.Take Vick's marketability out of the question. Don't think about it.

You are the Falcons GM you get a trade offer: Vick for any Qb other than Manning, Favre, Culpepper, Brady and McNabb. Straight up. Do you do the trade? And explain your answer.

I would probaly not do the trade because of M. Vicks age and his ability to develop into a great player.My point I am making is he is not carrying Atl on his back and there are other QB's out there who could make it into the playoffs with Atl.

For fun these guys may tempt a manager although I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to trade Vick away based on his age and potential. Because remember that is what it is thus far in his career and what he has proven. POTENTIAL.

Bulger: Only 28 years old has a great track record has playoff experience and is a great passing QB.

B. Rothelisberger: You could make a case at only 23 years of age and leading his team into the playoffs having the 7th best QB rating. (Remember people measure things with wins and this guy has proven he can win at such a young age).

Maybe

C. Palmer

B. Leftwhich

All young QB's who may in the end have a better NFL qb'ing career then M.Vick.

But of course it looks stupid now.

To many people think (Vick = Great) which is not deserved yet

(Vick = Hype) or (Vick = Potential): are both deserved.

 

[jurb26]

Thank god your not a real NFL GM for Atlanta.  Those would be the worst trades in the history of the league.  I guess you could possibly make an argument for Big Ben, but the others would be a joke.

An old QB like Trent Green over Vick, are you crazy?

Or do you just mean for this coming year, even then it's nuts to think Trent Green would take the Falcons farther than Vick.

A QB's job is to sustain drives and win games, something Vick does as well or better than most any QB in the league.  I don't care if he only throws for 5 yards, if he wins that's all that matters.

The team with the most stats does not get the lombardi trophy, the team that wins does.

Think REAL NFL, not FF stats.

Well the poster did include Favre for cryin out loud so yeah I was thinking for NOW. Are you kidding me about Green? Seriously watch the guy play for even one game. I disagree packersfan, Green is the most underrated QB in the game right now. Fantasy AND real NFL. Vick should be calling Green up for QB leassons 101 thru 445 cause he could learn boat loads from that guy.

 

[fatgirlsrock]

The Atlanta Falcons had a hell of a Defense last year. They won at least 3 of those games in spite of Vick.

Why do you idiots insist on perpetuating this?As I said before, their defense is not that great:

Falcons defense, pts. against, 2004:

#14 in NFL, 21.1 ppg

Falcons offense, pts. scored, 2004:

#16 in NFL, 21.3 ppg

First, it's clear that the defense is not carrying that team.

Secondly, for a team with such a close margin between points for and against, the difference-making ability of Vick at the end of a close game cannot be overstated.

Culpepper and Manning basically DOUBLED his passing yards!

Wow! So they must have both made the Super Bowl, or at least their leagues' respective championship games, right!?

So let me get this straight. You are saying even though Vicks numbers are not that great he still wins games for them. Well, then you must think in the same concept for Atl's defense who had won games for them this year even though they may have only been ranked # 14.

My point is Vick gets more credit then he deserves for Atl being an all around good football team.

Vick is good, fun to watch and a special player that causes defenses many problems. I just believe some people on here hold him on a pedastel when cleary he has not done enough to warrant being there yet.

He is proven he can be the starter on a good f'ball team and make the playoffs but so have other guys as was described with Kordel Stewart.

I also liked the post describing that since M.Vick has been the starter people exclude the games he is injured in and not playing yet he is getting starter money sitting on the sidelines hurt. How many games do GREAT QB's miss b/c of injury???? I don't think it is much as Vicks ratio is so early in his career. Sometimes injuries are freak accidents but with the style M.Vick plays with as a QB he is going to be injured more then your other "great QB's."

Doug Flutie was exciting, scrambled, had a spy watching him, proved he could win games. Maybe we should be comparing M.Vick to Doug Flutie. :rotflmao:

M. Vick is a good QB but he has not even lead his team to the playoffs in 2 consecutive years yet and people think he is Godly.

This year will be a good determinent of how good M.Vick really is.

Ok, so let's take a hypothetical situation.Take Vick's marketability out of the question. Don't think about it.

You are the Falcons GM you get a trade offer: Vick for any Qb other than Manning, Favre, Culpepper, Brady and McNabb. Straight up. Do you do the trade? And explain your answer.

To many people think (Vick = Great) which is not deserved yet(Vick = Hype) or (Vick = Potential): are both deserved.

If he's only hype and potential right now, then you gotta give him even more props for leading his team to the NFC championship game on hype and potential alone. If just his hype can win games then imagine what it will be like if he lives up to half of his potential.

 

[fatgirlsrock]

Thank god your not a real NFL GM for Atlanta. Those would be the worst trades in the history of the league. I guess you could possibly make an argument for Big Ben, but the others would be a joke.

An old QB like Trent Green over Vick, are you crazy?

Or do you just mean for this coming year, even then it's nuts to think Trent Green would take the Falcons farther than Vick.

A QB's job is to sustain drives and win games, something Vick does as well or better than most any QB in the league. I don't care if he only throws for 5 yards, if he wins that's all that matters.

The team with the most stats does not get the lombardi trophy, the team that wins does.

Think REAL NFL, not FF stats.

Well the poster did include Favre for cryin out loud so yeah I was thinking for NOW. Are you kidding me about Green? Seriously watch the guy play for even one game. I disagree packersfan, Green is the most underrated QB in the game right now. Fantasy AND real NFL. Vick should be calling Green up for QB leassons 101 thru 445 cause he could learn boat loads from that guy.

I've watched Green probably 30+ times since he's been a starter. I watched at least 5 games of his last year.He is a very good QB, but he doesn't win games, and he is surrounded by FAR better offensive talent than Vick is. Put Vick in KC and they are on par with NE and PITT. Put Trent Green on Atlanta and they struggle to make the playoffs.

I think Trent is a solid QB, but he isn't a guy who can control a game without great offensive talent around him. Vick can.

***Saying KC would be on par with a teams like NE and PITT was an exaggeration, but they would be one of the top tier teams in the AFC with Vick at the helm

 

[jurb26]

Thank god your not a real NFL GM for Atlanta.  Those would be the worst trades in the history of the league.  I guess you could possibly make an argument for Big Ben, but the others would be a joke.

An old QB like Trent Green over Vick, are you crazy?

Or do you just mean for this coming year, even then it's nuts to think Trent Green would take the Falcons farther than Vick.

A QB's job is to sustain drives and win games, something Vick does as well or better than most any QB in the league.  I don't care if he only throws for 5 yards, if he wins that's all that matters.

The team with the most stats does not get the lombardi trophy, the team that wins does.

Think REAL NFL, not FF stats.

Well the poster did include Favre for cryin out loud so yeah I was thinking for NOW. Are you kidding me about Green? Seriously watch the guy play for even one game. I disagree packersfan, Green is the most underrated QB in the game right now. Fantasy AND real NFL. Vick should be calling Green up for QB leassons 101 thru 445 cause he could learn boat loads from that guy.

I've watched Green probably 30+ times since he's been a starter. I watched at least 5 games of his last year.He is a very good QB, but he doesn't win games, and he is surrounded by FAR better offensive talent than Vick is. Put Vick in KC and they are on par with NE and PITT. Put Trent Green on Atlanta and they struggle to make the playoffs.

I think Trent is a solid QB, but he isn't a guy who can control a game without great offensive talent around him. Vick can.

Yes he has better tools on O, but it is no where near the disadvantage he has on D vs. Atl. Crumpler and Gonzo are 2 of the best and both teams top receiving threat. Both teams have a good rec back in Holmes and Dunn, push there IMO, though KC system uses Holmes much much more and Holmes is a far better rusher. Oline, KC easy though it was amazing what a diff the new Oline coach made for Atl. This is not as big a gap as most think IMO, but still a gap. WR though has to go to Atl IMO. KC has nothing there and at leqast Price is still good, jsut not #1 good. Yet Green makes and uses all of these guys to put up monster numbers every year and won untill last year.The difference for Atl's D to KC's is night and day though.

Edit: Why the hell does everyone think Atl only wins becasue of Vick. This team has some darn good players on D. Some very good RBs (as a combined unit) and a premier TE.

 

[rhawkins68]

Thank god your not a real NFL GM for Atlanta. Those would be the worst trades in the history of the league. I guess you could possibly make an argument for Big Ben, but the others would be a joke.

An old QB like Trent Green over Vick, are you crazy?

Or do you just mean for this coming year, even then it's nuts to think Trent Green would take the Falcons farther than Vick.

A QB's job is to sustain drives and win games, something Vick does as well or better than most any QB in the league. I don't care if he only throws for 5 yards, if he wins that's all that matters.

The team with the most stats does not get the lombardi trophy, the team that wins does.

Think REAL NFL, not FF stats.

Well the poster did include Favre for cryin out loud so yeah I was thinking for NOW. Are you kidding me about Green? Seriously watch the guy play for even one game. I disagree packersfan, Green is the most underrated QB in the game right now. Fantasy AND real NFL. Vick should be calling Green up for QB leassons 101 thru 445 cause he could learn boat loads from that guy.

I've watched Green probably 30+ times since he's been a starter. I watched at least 5 games of his last year.He is a very good QB, but he doesn't win games, and he is surrounded by FAR better offensive talent than Vick is. Put Vick in KC and they are on par with NE and PITT. Put Trent Green on Atlanta and they struggle to make the playoffs.

I think Trent is a solid QB, but he isn't a guy who can control a game without great offensive talent around him. Vick can.

***Saying KC would be on par with a teams like NE and PITT was an exaggeration, but they would be one of the top tier teams in the AFC with Vick at the helm

Not with the Defense they have. Vick makes to many mistakes for him to have a bad defense around him. Plus he is still a runner which makes it easier to shut down the offense. I'd prefer green over Vick in that system. Green in Atl I am torn on. The KC line is great versus a good Atl line. Would green be able to get the ball out faster? Probably but I think the quality of the RB's would also hurt him.

Vick/Green in Atl is a toss-up but would give it to Vick for the youth and income.

 

[MrKlaw]

Wow, a team run by Rich McKay is in salary cap hell

 

[fatgirlsrock]

Thank god your not a real NFL GM for Atlanta. Those would be the worst trades in the history of the league. I guess you could possibly make an argument for Big Ben, but the others would be a joke.

An old QB like Trent Green over Vick, are you crazy?

Or do you just mean for this coming year, even then it's nuts to think Trent Green would take the Falcons farther than Vick.

A QB's job is to sustain drives and win games, something Vick does as well or better than most any QB in the league. I don't care if he only throws for 5 yards, if he wins that's all that matters.

The team with the most stats does not get the lombardi trophy, the team that wins does.

Think REAL NFL, not FF stats.

Well the poster did include Favre for cryin out loud so yeah I was thinking for NOW. Are you kidding me about Green? Seriously watch the guy play for even one game. I disagree packersfan, Green is the most underrated QB in the game right now. Fantasy AND real NFL. Vick should be calling Green up for QB leassons 101 thru 445 cause he could learn boat loads from that guy.

I've watched Green probably 30+ times since he's been a starter. I watched at least 5 games of his last year.He is a very good QB, but he doesn't win games, and he is surrounded by FAR better offensive talent than Vick is. Put Vick in KC and they are on par with NE and PITT. Put Trent Green on Atlanta and they struggle to make the playoffs.

I think Trent is a solid QB, but he isn't a guy who can control a game without great offensive talent around him. Vick can.

***Saying KC would be on par with a teams like NE and PITT was an exaggeration, but they would be one of the top tier teams in the AFC with Vick at the helm

Not with the Defense they have. Vick makes to many mistakes for him to have a bad defense around him. Plus he is still a runner which makes it easier to shut down the offense. I'd prefer green over Vick in that system. Green in Atl I am torn on. The KC line is great versus a good Atl line. Would green be able to get the ball out faster? Probably but I think the quality of the RB's would also hurt him.

Vick/Green in Atl is a toss-up but would give it to Vick for the youth and income.

Vick makes the Atlanta defense BETTER. Watch Vick, he controls a game. A guy like dirtybird who goes to all their home games can attest to the ability of Vick to just flat out control everything about a game. This helps the defense since Atlanta is rarely trailing in the game, which puts the other teams offense in a pass mode without much threat of the run.Also look at the situations when vick turns the ball over. He doesn't often do it when his team is inside their own 20 where the turnover could kill them. He knows when to take chances and when not to. Turning the ball over inside the other teams territory is not a killer to the defense, Vick rarely puts his defense in a bad position, even when he turns it over.

Vick is a blessing to a defense, and makes them look better with his complete control of the game.

When they get down he has trouble, but thankfully he rarely puts his team in that position. But he definitely needs to improve when his team is down, that isn't really being debated at all.

 

[jurb26]

I think we found M.Vicks agent.

 

[rhawkins68]

Thank god your not a real NFL GM for Atlanta. Those would be the worst trades in the history of the league. I guess you could possibly make an argument for Big Ben, but the others would be a joke.

An old QB like Trent Green over Vick, are you crazy?

Or do you just mean for this coming year, even then it's nuts to think Trent Green would take the Falcons farther than Vick.

A QB's job is to sustain drives and win games, something Vick does as well or better than most any QB in the league. I don't care if he only throws for 5 yards, if he wins that's all that matters.

The team with the most stats does not get the lombardi trophy, the team that wins does.

Think REAL NFL, not FF stats.

Well the poster did include Favre for cryin out loud so yeah I was thinking for NOW. Are you kidding me about Green? Seriously watch the guy play for even one game. I disagree packersfan, Green is the most underrated QB in the game right now. Fantasy AND real NFL. Vick should be calling Green up for QB leassons 101 thru 445 cause he could learn boat loads from that guy.

I've watched Green probably 30+ times since he's been a starter. I watched at least 5 games of his last year.He is a very good QB, but he doesn't win games, and he is surrounded by FAR better offensive talent than Vick is. Put Vick in KC and they are on par with NE and PITT. Put Trent Green on Atlanta and they struggle to make the playoffs.

I think Trent is a solid QB, but he isn't a guy who can control a game without great offensive talent around him. Vick can.

***Saying KC would be on par with a teams like NE and PITT was an exaggeration, but they would be one of the top tier teams in the AFC with Vick at the helm

Not with the Defense they have. Vick makes to many mistakes for him to have a bad defense around him. Plus he is still a runner which makes it easier to shut down the offense. I'd prefer green over Vick in that system. Green in Atl I am torn on. The KC line is great versus a good Atl line. Would green be able to get the ball out faster? Probably but I think the quality of the RB's would also hurt him.

Vick/Green in Atl is a toss-up but would give it to Vick for the youth and income.

Vick makes the Atlanta defense BETTER. Watch Vick, he controls a game. A guy like dirtybird who goes to all their home games can attest to the ability of Vick to just flat out control everything about a game. This helps the defense since Atlanta is rarely trailing in the game, which puts the other teams offense in a pass mode without much threat of the run.Also look at the situations when vick turns the ball over. He doesn't often do it when his team is inside their own 20 where the turnover could kill them. He knows when to take chances and when not to. Turning the ball over inside the other teams territory is not a killer to the defense, Vick rarely puts his defense in a bad position, even when he turns it over.

Vick is a blessing to a defense, and makes them look better with his complete control of the game.

When they get down he has trouble, but thankfully he rarely puts his team in that position. But he definitely needs to improve when his team is down, that isn't really being debated at all.

I do not buy the Vick makes the Defense better. Did he not lead the league in turn-overs? In "Hidden Game of Football" they analyzed turn overs and determined a turn-over is worth -4 points no matter where it occurs. So this does not help the defense even though I disagree with this fact it's -4 no matter where. I believe it's -6 if you are in the redzone and more like -3 if you are anywhere else on the field. But they do cost regardless.

 

[lipster26]

Ok Carter, What was your point again?????? I understand your arguments. You place the value of the team above Vick's individual efforts and feel the success of the Falcons can be duplicated under any TOP 15 QB. I tend to disagree with that theory because I believe that Vick brings an uncanny ability to pull tricks out of his bag at opportune times and that is what separates him from the stats of other QB's. I also feel this way about Brady, Favre, and McNabb. Manning is just a freak of statistical nature so he can come play with those guys as well. And if Rothburger and Cpepp have a good years next year I will push them up into that category as well. Pennington has shown flashes of that quality as well. There is something about these QB's that separates them from just any QB. You can't quantify it by stats. Yes the team has alot to do with winning, but do you discount the efforts of individual players just because he was surrounded properly? While I don't regard Vick as "godlike" I think he is in the top 5-8 Qbs in the league.I really think you need to rethink the size of your tiers. Like maybe 3 or 4 tiers.

 

[fatgirlsrock]

Does anyone have Time of possession stats for Atlanta last year? I'm curious to see where their offense ranked in TOP.

 

[rhawkins68]

Does anyone have Time of possession stats for Atlanta last year? I'm curious to see where their offense ranked in TOP.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/stats/ATL/2004/regularKC for comparison

http://www.nfl.com/teams/stats/KC/2004/regular