War in Iraq is "over" - Obama (1 Viewer)

[mad sweeney]

Nine years of waste - both in human lies and > $1 Trillion - is finally officially over.

BREAKING NEWS

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama on Friday declared an end to the Iraq war, one of the longest and most divisive conflicts in U.S. history, announcing that all U.S. troops would be withdrawn from the country by year's end.

The president made the announcement at a White House briefing following a private video conference with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.

“As promised the rest of our troops in Iraq will come home by the end of the year. After nearly nine years, America's war in Iraq will be over,” Obama said.

"Today I can say that troops in Iraq will be home for the holidays," Obama said.

More than 4,400 American military members have been killed, and another 2,000 wounded since the U.S. invaded Iraq in March 2003.

Obama said the United States will have a "strong and enduring partnership" with Iraq after pullout of troops.

The American withdrawal by the end of 2011 was sealed in a deal between the two countries when George W. Bush was president. Obama declared the end of the combat mission earlier this year. The main sticking point has been legal immunity for any U.S. forces that remain.

Pretty sure the history books will reference Obama as the Albert Pujols of foreign policy. Dude is KILLING IT.

Obama was the just the guy standing in the right place at the right time.

It was mission accomplished long before Obama took office. He's just riding coattails at this point.

So can't blame Bush this late into O's term, but we can give him credit...

 

[tommyGunZ]

From the article, it sounds like TGZ should be praising Bush, but strangely enough he's not. Weird how that works out.

I agreed with the agreement Bush signed in '08, and praised him for it at the time. As you know, adhering to the timeline is controversial, the subject of much debate, and there is quite a bit of wiggle room in the agreement that would enable our troops to occupy Iraq indefinitely. Obama's choosing to come home now, and deserves kudos.

 

[NCCommish]

This is a bad decision. It's going to cost us It's not worth celebrating. I really don't like this neo-isolationist trend I'm seeing in politics these days. It's an illusion. We can never go home again.

It isn't neo-isolationist to be tired of spending billions a month in Iraq when we can't afford teachers here. And you know what? If they want to go all fundamentalist Islam that is their decision and I couldn't care less. As long as they keep it to themselves it isn't our problem. We have bigger fish to fry right here at home. If they can't keep it to themselves then we do have air superiority and we can remind them of it as necessary.

 

[snogger]

From the article, it sounds like TGZ should be praising Bush, but strangely enough he's not. Weird how that works out.

I agreed with the agreement Bush signed in '08, and praised him for it at the time. As you know, adhering to the timeline is controversial, the subject of much debate, and there is quite a bit of wiggle room in the agreement that would enable our troops to occupy Iraq indefinitely. Obama's choosing to come home now, and deserves kudos.

listen.. I'm glad all the troops are coming home.. But maybe you missed the point that Obama and his staff were trying to keep our troops there longer than the end of the year:

A current Status of Force Agreement called for U.S. forces to leave Iraq by the end of 2011 but lengthy negotiations had given rise to the expectation that an American presence would continue beyond that date.The United States had expected that some of the roughly 40,000 Americans in Iraq would remain there to aid in training and security.

I am glad an agreement couldn't be reached..

 

[Kirby]

Way to go Bush!

 

[timschochet]

This is a bad decision. It's going to cost us It's not worth celebrating. I really don't like this neo-isolationist trend I'm seeing in politics these days. It's an illusion. We can never go home again.

It isn't neo-isolationist to be tired of spending billions a month in Iraq when we can't afford teachers here. And you know what? If they want to go all fundamentalist Islam that is their decision and I couldn't care less. As long as they keep it to themselves it isn't our problem. We have bigger fish to fry right here at home. If they can't keep it to themselves then we do have air superiority and we can remind them of it as necessary.

But it doesn't work that way, NC. If they go all fundamentalist Islam they won't keep it to themselves, they will threaten our cheap oil supply. And even though people are complaining about the price, it remains cheap. Suppose it was $10 a gallon or more at the pumps? That would lead to plenty of misery over here. What we should have done is left a small force in Iraq, well-trained, at a much lower cost than we're spending now. That would serve as a deterrent to Iran. They would know that sure they could overrun that force at any time but the consequences of doing so would be too costly to consider. By removing ALL of our troops, we are surrendering our influence in the region.

 

[proninja]

This is a bad decision. It's going to cost us It's not worth celebrating.

I really don't like this neo-isolationist trend I'm seeing in politics these days. It's an illusion. We can never go home again.

It isn't neo-isolationist to be tired of spending billions a month in Iraq when we can't afford teachers here. And you know what? If they want to go all fundamentalist Islam that is their decision and I couldn't care less. As long as they keep it to themselves it isn't our problem. We have bigger fish to fry right here at home. If they can't keep it to themselves then we do have air superiority and we can remind them of it as necessary.

But it doesn't work that way, NC. If they go all fundamentalist Islam they won't keep it to themselves, they will threaten our cheap oil supply. And even though people are complaining about the price, it remains cheap. Suppose it was $10 a gallon or more at the pumps? That would lead to plenty of misery over here. What we should have done is left a small force in Iraq, well-trained, at a much lower cost than we're spending now. That would serve as a deterrent to Iran. They would know that sure they could overrun that force at any time but the consequences of doing so would be too costly to consider. By removing ALL of our troops, we are surrendering our influence in the region.

This would be awesome. Then people would ride their bikes, which would make them healthier, which would save us money on health costs. Also, the people who could least afford gas are the people who likely can't afford health care, so we're removing the burden of caring for them from the government once they have a heart attack and go to the ER. Win-win.

 

[NCCommish]

This is a bad decision. It's going to cost us It's not worth celebrating. I really don't like this neo-isolationist trend I'm seeing in politics these days. It's an illusion. We can never go home again.

It isn't neo-isolationist to be tired of spending billions a month in Iraq when we can't afford teachers here. And you know what? If they want to go all fundamentalist Islam that is their decision and I couldn't care less. As long as they keep it to themselves it isn't our problem. We have bigger fish to fry right here at home. If they can't keep it to themselves then we do have air superiority and we can remind them of it as necessary.

But it doesn't work that way, NC. If they go all fundamentalist Islam they won't keep it to themselves, they will threaten our cheap oil supply. And even though people are complaining about the price, it remains cheap. Suppose it was $10 a gallon or more at the pumps? That would lead to plenty of misery over here. What we should have done is left a small force in Iraq, well-trained, at a much lower cost than we're spending now. That would serve as a deterrent to Iran. They would know that sure they could overrun that force at any time but the consequences of doing so would be too costly to consider. By removing ALL of our troops, we are surrendering our influence in the region.

No what we should have done is never gone in. And we are not surrendering our influence at all. We did that when we started this mess over a decade ago and gave it to Iran. It's past time to get out.

 

[tommyGunZ]

This is a bad decision. It's going to cost us It's not worth celebrating.

I really don't like this neo-isolationist trend I'm seeing in politics these days. It's an illusion. We can never go home again.

It isn't neo-isolationist to be tired of spending billions a month in Iraq when we can't afford teachers here. And you know what? If they want to go all fundamentalist Islam that is their decision and I couldn't care less. As long as they keep it to themselves it isn't our problem. We have bigger fish to fry right here at home. If they can't keep it to themselves then we do have air superiority and we can remind them of it as necessary.

But it doesn't work that way, NC. If they go all fundamentalist Islam they won't keep it to themselves, they will threaten our cheap oil supply. And even though people are complaining about the price, it remains cheap. Suppose it was $10 a gallon or more at the pumps? That would lead to plenty of misery over here. What we should have done is left a small force in Iraq, well-trained, at a much lower cost than we're spending now. That would serve as a deterrent to Iran. They would know that sure they could overrun that force at any time but the consequences of doing so would be too costly to consider. By removing ALL of our troops, we are surrendering our influence in the region.

What? If we're not occupying, we have no influence? That's crazy.

 

[proninja]

They're not occupying us, and they seem to have plenty of influence over here

 

[The Z Machine]

This is a bad decision. It's going to cost us It's not worth celebrating. I really don't like this neo-isolationist trend I'm seeing in politics these days. It's an illusion. We can never go home again.

You're wrong.

 

[tommyGunZ]

They're not occupying us, and they seem to have plenty of influence over here

BTW, i love the new commie/hippy/liberal/pinko-ninja.

 

[EYLive]

It's time to start thinking about where Obama ranks amongst the greatest POTUS of all time with regards to national defense/foreign policy.

Right after Washington, just above Reagan?

I think Obama has been an excellent foreign policy president. Don't much like this decision, but overall he's been great.

I'll ask again. Why has he been great at foreign policy?

 

[NutterButter]

This is a bad decision. It's going to cost us It's not worth celebrating. I really don't like this neo-isolationist trend I'm seeing in politics these days. It's an illusion. We can never go home again.

It isn't neo-isolationist to be tired of spending billions a month in Iraq when we can't afford teachers here. And you know what? If they want to go all fundamentalist Islam that is their decision and I couldn't care less. As long as they keep it to themselves it isn't our problem. We have bigger fish to fry right here at home. If they can't keep it to themselves then we do have air superiority and we can remind them of it as necessary.

But it doesn't work that way, NC. If they go all fundamentalist Islam they won't keep it to themselves, they will threaten our cheap oil supply. And even though people are complaining about the price, it remains cheap. Suppose it was $10 a gallon or more at the pumps? That would lead to plenty of misery over here. What we should have done is left a small force in Iraq, well-trained, at a much lower cost than we're spending now. That would serve as a deterrent to Iran. They would know that sure they could overrun that force at any time but the consequences of doing so would be too costly to consider. By removing ALL of our troops, we are surrendering our influence in the region.

Even if we kept the 13K troops that McCain stated he wanted this past summer, that still would cost us a few billion at least. That's way too much money to address a hypothetical.

 

[Slapdash]

This is a bad decision. It's going to cost us It's not worth celebrating. I really don't like this neo-isolationist trend I'm seeing in politics these days. It's an illusion. We can never go home again.

It isn't neo-isolationist to be tired of spending billions a month in Iraq when we can't afford teachers here. And you know what? If they want to go all fundamentalist Islam that is their decision and I couldn't care less. As long as they keep it to themselves it isn't our problem. We have bigger fish to fry right here at home. If they can't keep it to themselves then we do have air superiority and we can remind them of it as necessary.

But it doesn't work that way, NC. If they go all fundamentalist Islam they won't keep it to themselves, they will threaten our cheap oil supply. And even though people are complaining about the price, it remains cheap. Suppose it was $10 a gallon or more at the pumps? That would lead to plenty of misery over here.

Hard to make the blood for oil argument more explicitly.

 

[proninja]

They're not occupying us, and they seem to have plenty of influence over here

BTW, i love the new commie/hippy/liberal/pinko-ninja.

I'm poor now. Someone give me some gub'ment cheese.

 

[tommyGunZ]

It's time to start thinking about where Obama ranks amongst the greatest POTUS of all time with regards to national defense/foreign policy.

Right after Washington, just above Reagan?

I think Obama has been an excellent foreign policy president. Don't much like this decision, but overall he's been great.

I'll ask again. Why has he been great at foreign policy?

News down?

 

[CletiusMaximus]

This is a bad decision. It's going to cost us It's not worth celebrating. I really don't like this neo-isolationist trend I'm seeing in politics these days. It's an illusion. We can never go home again.

It isn't neo-isolationist to be tired of spending billions a month in Iraq when we can't afford teachers here. And you know what? If they want to go all fundamentalist Islam that is their decision and I couldn't care less. As long as they keep it to themselves it isn't our problem. We have bigger fish to fry right here at home. If they can't keep it to themselves then we do have air superiority and we can remind them of it as necessary.

But it doesn't work that way, NC. If they go all fundamentalist Islam they won't keep it to themselves, they will threaten our cheap oil supply. And even though people are complaining about the price, it remains cheap. Suppose it was $10 a gallon or more at the pumps? That would lead to plenty of misery over here. What we should have done is left a small force in Iraq, well-trained, at a much lower cost than we're spending now. That would serve as a deterrent to Iran. They would know that sure they could overrun that force at any time but the consequences of doing so would be too costly to consider. By removing ALL of our troops, we are surrendering our influence in the region.

Apart from the oil, is is possible your views on the topic are colored by your position on Israel? Is it a legitimate claim to say that Israel was the main beneficiary of the US invasion and occupation in Iraq?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I'll ask again. Why has he been great at foreign policy?

News down?

Which parts?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I'll ask again. Why has he been great at foreign policy?

News down?

Which parts?

All of the "around the world parts" of the news.The Obama admins foreign policy and national defense have been awesome.

 

[EYLive]

It's time to start thinking about where Obama ranks amongst the greatest POTUS of all time with regards to national defense/foreign policy.

Right after Washington, just above Reagan?

I think Obama has been an excellent foreign policy president. Don't much like this decision, but overall he's been great.

I'll ask again. Why has he been great at foreign policy?

News down?

Yes. I just woke up from a coma. Get me up to speed on Obama's brilliance.

 

[Slapdash]

So when do we get to leave Afghanistan?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

It's time to start thinking about where Obama ranks amongst the greatest POTUS of all time with regards to national defense/foreign policy.

Right after Washington, just above Reagan?

I think Obama has been an excellent foreign policy president. Don't much like this decision, but overall he's been great.

I'll ask again. Why has he been great at foreign policy?

News down?

Yes. I just woke up from a coma. Get me up to speed on Obama's brilliance.

Wouldn't matter what he said. He'd be wasting his time. And you know this.But he might answer you anyway.

 

[timschochet]

Apart from the oil, is is possible your views on the topic are colored by your position on Israel? Is it a legitimate claim to say that Israel was the main beneficiary of the US invasion and occupation in Iraq?

Just the opposite. Our invasion of Iraq has made Israel less safe than ever before. Our continuing presence in Iraq makes things more dangerous for Israel. But I'm still for it.I also don't appreciate the inference you're trying to make. Who are you, LHUCKS?

 

[ffldrew]

While it seems that Iran gets a bit of a "win" here as they have more influence in Iraq - I'm not sure about the talk of threatening Saudi Arabia - that would be Iran's "bridge too far". That regime is not exactly the most popular at home and if they try to reach with their very weak army - we come back in and completely destroy it. And the fallout would most likely lead to the regime's downfall. They can't fight at home internally and then in Iraq as well - not right now at least. Even providing "aid" in an internal struggle in Iraq will be costly to them as they are pretty weak and isolated economically - and the Iranian opposition groups might be able to tap into some resentment to spending on that "aid".

That's not to say I think that the price we paid to get here was right - it cost us way to much to have little or a lost effect in Iraq.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Apart from the oil, is is possible your views on the topic are colored by your position on Israel? Is it a legitimate claim to say that Israel was the main beneficiary of the US invasion and occupation in Iraq?

Just the opposite. Our invasion of Iraq has made Israel less safe than ever before. Our continuing presence in Iraq makes things more dangerous for Israel. But I'm still for it.I also don't appreciate the inference you're trying to make. Who are you, LHUCKS?

You're reading too much into Cletius' post, IMO. Insinuating that you're biased by your admittedly biased pro-Israel positions isn't something you should take personal.

 

[Slapdash]

It's time to start thinking about where Obama ranks amongst the greatest POTUS of all time with regards to national defense/foreign policy.

Right after Washington, just above Reagan?

I think Obama has been an excellent foreign policy president. Don't much like this decision, but overall he's been great.

I'll ask again. Why has he been great at foreign policy?

News down?

Yes. I just woke up from a coma. Get me up to speed on Obama's brilliance.

Wouldn't matter what he said. He'd be wasting his time. And you know this.But he might answer you anyway.

As someone who voted for Obama in 08, I'd like to hear someone unpack the statement that he is great at foreign policy. That has not been my impression.

 

[timschochet]

I'm not surprised that my views are unpopular. The decision to invade Iraq in the first place was such a terrible one that I think most people have come to realize it, and so all everyone wants to do, from people here right on up to the POTUS, is to get the hell out of there as soon as possible. And I can understand that. But I fear it's too late for that now. We are going to reap terrible consequences for just leaving the way we are.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

As someone who voted for Obama in 08, I'd like to hear someone unpack the statement that he is great at foreign policy. That has not been my impression.

BUT DADDY, I LOVE HIM!!!!/TGZ

 

[Sabertooth]

As someone who voted for Obama in 08, I'd like to hear someone unpack the statement that he is great at foreign policy. That has not been my impression.

Somali Pirates - deadOsama bin Laden - deadIraq War - doneThat's enough right there.

 

[sho nuff]

God bless the men and women who have given so much, those that died, those that were maimed and those that won't quite be the same. This is a good day that I feared wouldn't come this soon. The machinations beyond that I suppose can be debated, but I'm happy for this moment.

Very well said.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

As someone who voted for Obama in 08, I'd like to hear someone unpack the statement that he is great at foreign policy. That has not been my impression.

Somali Pirates - deadOsama bin Laden - deadIraq War - doneThat's enough right there.

How have killing the Somali pirates and OBL helped us in terms of our foreign policy?Not saying they weren't the right thing to do, but ordering the killing of enemy combatants isn't exactly earth shattering in its policy gravitas.

 

[Sabertooth]

As someone who voted for Obama in 08, I'd like to hear someone unpack the statement that he is great at foreign policy. That has not been my impression.

Somali Pirates - deadOsama bin Laden - deadIraq War - doneThat's enough right there.

How have killing the Somali pirates and OBL helped us in terms of our foreign policy?Not saying they weren't the right thing to do, but ordering the killing of enemy combatants isn't exactly earth shattering in its policy gravitas.

Those moves showed that America is not to be trifled with. That's about the most important thing there is in terms of foreign policy no?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

As someone who voted for Obama in 08, I'd like to hear someone unpack the statement that he is great at foreign policy. That has not been my impression.

Somali Pirates - deadOsama bin Laden - deadIraq War - doneThat's enough right there.

How have killing the Somali pirates and OBL helped us in terms of our foreign policy?Not saying they weren't the right thing to do, but ordering the killing of enemy combatants isn't exactly earth shattering in its policy gravitas.

Those moves showed that America is not to be trifled with. That's about the most important thing there is in terms of foreign policy no?

According to those psuedo-toughguy right wingers it is. Cowboy policy and all.Korea has been pretty quiet.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Those moves showed that America is not to be trifled with. That's about the most important thing there is in terms of foreign policy no?

It's not bad, I'll give you that. I've long been an advocate of a nuke the moon policy.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Apart from the oil, is is possible your views on the topic are colored by your position on Israel? Is it a legitimate claim to say that Israel was the main beneficiary of the US invasion and occupation in Iraq?

Just the opposite. Our invasion of Iraq has made Israel less safe than ever before. Our continuing presence in Iraq makes things more dangerous for Israel. But I'm still for it.I also don't appreciate the inference you're trying to make. Who are you, LHUCKS?

What inference? My question is a simple one. I was trying hard not to pierce your paper-thin skin on the subject of Isreal.Do you think the Israelis and US-based Zionists are happy or sad that the US is pulling out of Iraq?

 

[MaxThreshold]

As someone who voted for Obama in 08, I'd like to hear someone unpack the statement that he is great at foreign policy. That has not been my impression.

Somali Pirates - deadOsama bin Laden - deadIraq War - doneThat's enough right there.

Unless Obama actually killed the pirates and bin Laden himself, I'd say those are good accomplishments but nothing that would make him a foreign policy genius. In fact, the Iraq War pullout was already decided in the Bush administration. How does he get credit for saying, "Okay, contract says end of 2011 so let's do it"?And did you forget about the Obama apology tour early in his presidency? I'd say that was an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Slapdash]

As someone who voted for Obama in 08, I'd like to hear someone unpack the statement that he is great at foreign policy. That has not been my impression.

Somali Pirates - deadOsama bin Laden - deadIraq War - doneThat's enough right there.

Where does going to "war" in Libya and starting drone attacks in countries like Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia fit in on this? How is he doing on giving trials to enemy combatants? Is he assassinating American citizens? Has he curtailed the growth in our surveillance network which is continuously monitoring people across the world, including in our own country?

 

[timschochet]

Apart from the oil, is is possible your views on the topic are colored by your position on Israel? Is it a legitimate claim to say that Israel was the main beneficiary of the US invasion and occupation in Iraq?

Just the opposite. Our invasion of Iraq has made Israel less safe than ever before. Our continuing presence in Iraq makes things more dangerous for Israel. But I'm still for it.I also don't appreciate the inference you're trying to make. Who are you, LHUCKS?

What inference? My question is a simple one. I was trying hard not to pierce your paper-thin skin on the subject of Isreal.Do you think the Israelis and US-based Zionists are happy or sad that the US is pulling out of Iraq?

I have no idea. As I said, the decision to oust Saddam was a terrible one, both for us and Israel. The continuing presence of American troops in the Middle East is bad for Israel, IMO. But I have no idea if others share this opinion.

 

[Slapdash]

As someone who voted for Obama in 08, I'd like to hear someone unpack the statement that he is great at foreign policy. That has not been my impression.

Somali Pirates - deadOsama bin Laden - deadIraq War - doneThat's enough right there.

How have killing the Somali pirates and OBL helped us in terms of our foreign policy?Not saying they weren't the right thing to do, but ordering the killing of enemy combatants isn't exactly earth shattering in its policy gravitas.

Those moves showed that America is not to be trifled with. That's about the most important thing there is in terms of foreign policy no?

Seriously? Do you think people thought America was something to be trifled with before those things? Insecurity and hegemony are a dangerous mix.

 

[Sarnoff]

It's time to start thinking about where Obama ranks amongst the greatest POTUS of all time with regards to national defense/foreign policy.

Right after Washington, just above Reagan?

I think Obama has been an excellent foreign policy president. Don't much like this decision, but overall he's been great.

I'll ask again. Why has he been great at foreign policy?

News down?

Yes. I just woke up from a coma. Get me up to speed on Obama's brilliance.

Remember all the stuff Bush did? Obama decided to keep it rollin'

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Remember all the stuff Bush did? Obama decided to keep it rollin'

Bush was scared of Pakistan.

 

[drummer]

As someone who voted for Obama in 08, I'd like to hear someone unpack the statement that he is great at foreign policy. That has not been my impression.

BUT DADDY, I LOVE HIM!!!!/TGZ

 

[Terpman22]

I got out of the Marines in '03 (albeit 2 months late due to stop loss ), but I remember voicing opposition to the "war" as the buildup was happening with all the false intelligence and such - and man, did I immediately get reprimanded by like 5 SSGT's at once. Wish I could see those douchebags today and say I told you so. Great news today, long overdue.

 

[NutterButter]

It's time to start thinking about where Obama ranks amongst the greatest POTUS of all time with regards to national defense/foreign policy.

Right after Washington, just above Reagan?

I think Obama has been an excellent foreign policy president. Don't much like this decision, but overall he's been great.

I'll ask again. Why has he been great at foreign policy?

News down?

Yes. I just woke up from a coma. Get me up to speed on Obama's brilliance.

Remember all the stuff Bush did? Obama decided to keep it rollin'

Yeah, except Obama actually accomplished finding OBL

 

[tommyGunZ]

How have killing the Somali pirates and OBL helped us in terms of our foreign policy?

So going into Iraq was the right move, but taking out OBL isn't "helpful" in terms of foreign policy.And you poke fun at me for being biased?

 

[NutterButter]

How have killing the Somali pirates and OBL helped us in terms of our foreign policy?

So going into Iraq was the right move, but taking out OBL isn't "helpful" in terms of foreign policy.And you poke fun at me for being biased?

Its the Bush Doctrine. If someone attacks you, you retaliate by attacking some random guy thus discouraging the original attacker from ever attacking you again. That's some Sun-Tzu, ninja misdirection retaliatory attack.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

How have killing the Somali pirates and OBL helped us in terms of our foreign policy?

So going into Iraq was the right move, but taking out OBL isn't "helpful" in terms of foreign policy.And you poke fun at me for being biased?

Once again, I'm going to ask for you to explain how you feel that taking out OBL was helpful in foreign policy terms.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

As an OIF vet, just glad it's over. As a supervisor of military folk, even more glad this thing is about to be done. None of the people I care about will ever have to go to that godforsaken #### stain of a country.

 

[Statcruncher]

This is a bad decision. It's going to cost us It's not worth celebrating. I really don't like this neo-isolationist trend I'm seeing in politics these days. It's an illusion. We can never go home again.

Your views continually amaze me. You think every foreigner should be given citizenship to the US yet US soldiers shouldn't be returning home. I can't figure out if your completely nuts, fishing, or cleverly trying to lure other nation's people here so we can occupy their country.