Was Nixon really a bad president? (Offshoot of Rank the prez thread) (1 Viewer)

[lombardi]

Reading through the thread it's a pretty quick default for most (but not all) people to drop Nixon to the bottom of the list. If not the bottom then close to it. Nixon ends up at the bottom of lots of presidential rankings. However, when I read about the Watergate scandal I wonder if any of the last 3 presidents would have survived office in the same moral climate with the same press in 1974. If Watergate happened now I just don't see it reaching the president. The scandals that have been ignored by the press and the American people in the last 3 administrations seem to outweigh what happened then.

I was only 2 when Nixon resigned and like most people all I've ever heard or been taught about Nixon was either related to Vietnam or Watergate. But a quick google search showed a few things he accomplished...

Although he escalated Vietnam he also ended the war. (Probably a plus for some and a negative for others)

He visited China and opened up diplomatic relations with China in '72

Initiate the ABMT with the Soviets

Pushed forward New Federalism principles to move power back to states and local reps

Initiated first huge federal effort for Cancer research (Sickle Cell also)

Enforced desegregation of Southern Schools

Established the EPA, supporting Clean Air Act and OSHA

First president to balance the federal budget

So this is a quick search, I'm certainly not a Nixon historian or even advocate. I'm sure someone can post just as long of a list even without including Watergate of the things he did wrong, everything is looked at through partisan lenses by just about everyone.

I'm just wondering if he gets a bad shake for a scandal what would have been buried, denied, and minimized by his supporters in this day and age and probably would have been something his opponents complained about but didn't damage his presidency. If that were the case, looking at his other accomplishments how would he be looked at as a president?

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

YES and NO

 

[DiStefano]

He was actually a pretty good president, but not necessarily a good person. He was devious and somewhat paranoid.

 

[Sarnoff]

He was actually a pretty good president, but not necessarily a good person. He was devious and somewhat paranoid.

Good President/Bad Person, pretty much the opposite of Obama.

 

[roadkill1292]

Far less likeable but ultimately far less damaging to the nation than Reagan. Both were champions of the status quo and were willing to make up whatever facts they needed to appease the Silent Majority. But Nixon could never sling that ol' time bull#### religion like Reagan could.

 

[Eephus]

It's impossible to separate his legacy from his performance.

Nixon is one of the most fascinating public figures in American history. He led the nation near the peak of the Pax Americana and has some notable accomplishments as President. But he was corrupt and discredited the office and the nation. You can't give him a pass on that.

 

[lombardi]

It's impossible to separate his legacy from his performance.

Nixon is one of the most fascinating public figures in American history. He led the nation near the peak of the Pax Americana and has some notable accomplishments as President. But he was corrupt and discredited the office and the nation. You can't give him a pass on that.

But I think we DO give modern presidents a pass on that. That's the problem. It's like saying how great was Bonds if he never took steriods. Of course you can't say that but if the Steroids stigma went away over the next 20 years which I think it will, when we look back at Bonds what he did will seem so much worse that what other people did after him but it was more accepted.

 

[Zow]

It's impossible to separate his legacy from his performance.

Nixon is one of the most fascinating public figures in American history. He led the nation near the peak of the Pax Americana and has some notable accomplishments as President. But he was corrupt and discredited the office and the nation. You can't give him a pass on that.

But I think we DO give modern presidents a pass on that. That's the problem. It's like saying how great was Bonds if he never took steriods. Of course you can't say that but if the Steroids stigma went away over the next 20 years which I think it will, when we look back at Bonds what he did will seem so much worse that what other people did after him but it was more accepted.

Examples?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Decent president.

HORRIBLE for the presidency.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

If something had happened to him Agnew would have been worse.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

No he was a pretty good President.

 

[Plorfu]

Predictable response based on past FFA political posts.

 

[jon_mx]

I don't buy the good president/bad person. I think he was pretty bad president and horrible person.

 

[pantherclub]

Is this a serious thread.

How in the hell knowing all of what he did could anyone think he was a good president?

 

[lombardi]

I could say the same thing about Obama and I'm sure about a thousand people on this board could say the same about Bush. The climate has changed.

Iran Contra

Whitewater

Lewinksy

Yellow-cake/WMD's

Federal Proscuters

Valerie Plame

F&F Gun Walking

Benghazi

IRS

NSA Scandals

Some will say many of these scandals didn't reach to the top. But I say they didn't go to the top because of the state of journalistic integrity and the 24 hour partisan news machine. There was no MSNBC/Fox News or DailyKos/Drudge Report to blindly and partisanly defend their "guy" and give a contrary opinion for people to rationalize and hang on to. You couldn't pull the crap that both Obama, Bush, and Clinton did with executive powers back then. The people and the press would have served you your head. Holder was held in contempt for not giving over documents demanded by Congress. What happened? Nothing. Libby went to jail but did anything change? No.

Some of these things didn't go to the top because they were successfully buried and never got the chance, the truth never came out. Of course, after Nixon no president is going to be stupid enough to tape every conversation he has. Although those mistakes have kind of happened with email and most of the battles about documents are about getting these records which usually end up staying buried, getting lost, or being so heavily redacted and stalled the public forgets about the controversy.... according to plan.

 

[lombardi]

Again, I was barely alive and I don't know the history as well as I should. If not for the recordings, would Nixon have weathered the scandal?

 

[pantherclub]

Are you comparing Benghazi to watergate?

 

[BobbyLayne]

Throughout U.S. history, virtually every second term was rife with scandals. None reached the PotUS until Nixon.

Power corrupts. But in tricky ****'s case, you're talking about a small minded thin skinned morally bankrupt pol who spent a lifetime destroying other people's lives. The rehabilitation of his persona was remarkable, but on the whole, he was a very bad man.

 

[Eephus]

Again, I was barely alive and I don't know the history as well as I should. If not for the recordings, would Nixon have weathered the scandal?

He might have been able to survive the impeachment process but he would have been a wounded, lame duck President through the end of his second term.

 

[lombardi]

Are you comparing Benghazi to watergate?

Probably not a fair comparison, nobody died in watergate.

 

[Soonerman]

Just a terrible president.

Terrible on policy and personally.

 

[Dentist]

I've read a lot about Nixon over the years.

I do think he had some pretty deep character flaws, but I really think that aside from those... basically he just got caught playing some dirty politics... other men in power in this country have probably done much worse, just not gotten caught.

I think he was a good politician and foreign policy man overall. The kind of guy who got a lot of crap done... but just wasn't loved or popular...

It could have gone a lot differently and better for him if he'd just beaten Kennedy like he should have and had his 8 year run from 60 to 68

 

[General Malaise]

If he had just gone along with the findings and recommendations of his own appointed Shafer commission, we could have enjoyed legalized/decriminalized marijuana for the last 40 years. Think of all the money that's been thrown down the toilet arresting citizens for smoking and selling pot. Man...what a doosh cookie.

 

[pantherclub]

Are you comparing Benghazi to watergate?

Probably not a fair comparison, nobody died in watergate.

good luck with that

we are pulling for you

 

[DiStefano]

Are you comparing Benghazi to watergate?

No comparison. Nobody died in Watergate.

 

[pantherclub]

Are you comparing Benghazi to watergate?

No comparison. Nobody died in Watergate.

woah

 

[mon]

Nah, he was a great president.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I've read a lot about Nixon over the years.

I do think he had some pretty deep character flaws, but I really think that aside from those... basically he just got caught playing some dirty politics... er men in power in this country have probably done much worse, just not gotten caught. [\b]

I think he was a good politician and foreign policy man overall. The kind of guy who got a lot of crap done... but just wasn't loved or popular...

It could have gone a lot differently and better for him if he'd just beaten Kennedy like he should have and had his 8 year run from 60 to 68

Sure, when you compare him to mayors, governors and congressman. But do you honestly think you could name one President as dishonest or corrupt? No way.

 

[Dentist]

I've read a lot about Nixon over the years.

I do think he had some pretty deep character flaws, but I really think that aside from those... basically he just got caught playing some dirty politics... er men in power in this country have probably done much worse, just not gotten caught. [\b]

I think he was a good politician and foreign policy man overall. The kind of guy who got a lot of crap done... but just wasn't loved or popular...

It could have gone a lot differently and better for him if he'd just beaten Kennedy like he should have and had his 8 year run from 60 to 68

Sure, when you compare him to mayors, governors and congressman. But do you honestly think you could name one President as dishonest or corrupt? No way.

Warren G. Harding

 

[BobbyLayne]

I've read a lot about Nixon over the years.

I do think he had some pretty deep character flaws, but I really think that aside from those... basically he just got caught playing some dirty politics... er men in power in this country have probably done much worse, just not gotten caught. [\b]

I think he was a good politician and foreign policy man overall. The kind of guy who got a lot of crap done... but just wasn't loved or popular...

It could have gone a lot differently and better for him if he'd just beaten Kennedy like he should have and had his 8 year run from 60 to 68

Sure, when you compare him to mayors, governors and congressman. But do you honestly think you could name one President as dishonest or corrupt? No way.

Warren G. Harding

The Ohio Gang was pretty corrupt. But the Teapot Dome scandal was a cabinet level deal - didn't reach the Presidency. The bribe & conviction implicated the cabinet member.

I will grant you gambling away the White House china in a poker game is pretty low rent. Seriously effed up. Yet think how he stood up for minorities, and then play back **** talking about Jews. One guy had character flaws, the other was simply morally bankrupt. Not in the same league IMO.

 

[Dentist]

I've read a lot about Nixon over the years.

I do think he had some pretty deep character flaws, but I really think that aside from those... basically he just got caught playing some dirty politics... er men in power in this country have probably done much worse, just not gotten caught. [\b]

I think he was a good politician and foreign policy man overall. The kind of guy who got a lot of crap done... but just wasn't loved or popular...

It could have gone a lot differently and better for him if he'd just beaten Kennedy like he should have and had his 8 year run from 60 to 68

Sure, when you compare him to mayors, governors and congressman. But do you honestly think you could name one President as dishonest or corrupt? No way.

Warren G. Harding

The Ohio Gang was pretty corrupt. But the Teapot Dome scandal was a cabinet level deal - didn't reach the Presidency. The bribe & conviction implicated the cabinet member.I will grant you gambling away the White House china in a poker game is pretty low rent. Seriously effed up. Yet think how he stood up for minorities, and then play back **** talking about Jews. One guy had character flaws, the other was simply morally bankrupt. Not in the same league IMO.

Ulysses S. Grant

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Yes, he was absolutely a bad president. He was a full-blown criminal who abused the powers of his office to damage his political opponents and advance his own career. If that doesn't drop him to the bottom of your personal rankings, there's something wrong with you.

Caveat: Nixon's legacy is that nobody will ever trust the government the same way the did from 1932 to 1972. As a libertarian, I guess I should be happy about that, but that definitely isn't the legacy that Nixon meant to leave, so all of should agree that it's fair to hold it against him.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I've read a lot about Nixon over the years.

I do think he had some pretty deep character flaws, but I really think that aside from those... basically he just got caught playing some dirty politics... er men in power in this country have probably done much worse, just not gotten caught. [\b]

I think he was a good politician and foreign policy man overall. The kind of guy who got a lot of crap done... but just wasn't loved or popular...

It could have gone a lot differently and better for him if he'd just beaten Kennedy like he should have and had his 8 year run from 60 to 68

Sure, when you compare him to mayors, governors and congressman. But do you honestly think you could name one President as dishonest or corrupt? No way.

Warren G. Harding

The Ohio Gang was pretty corrupt. But the Teapot Dome scandal was a cabinet level deal - didn't reach the Presidency. The bribe & conviction implicated the cabinet member.I will grant you gambling away the White House china in a poker game is pretty low rent. Seriously effed up. Yet think how he stood up for minorities, and then play back **** talking about Jews. One guy had character flaws, the other was simply morally bankrupt. Not in the same league IMO.

Ulysses S. Grant

OK, now you're grasping. His worst sin was he was naive and trusted the wrong people. But again, 2nd term scandals are par for the course throughout our history. Grant was not corrupt, but he was a sub-optimal executive.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

So people are knocking Nixon for:

- His "criminalization" of Weed - this is the strongest reason I have heard, but even so, has any president elected after Nixon made any attempt to reverse this practice?

- His corruption that he tried to use his power to his advantage to profit off of. I think many presidents and veeps have done this and campaign financing and wall street contributions are still out of control.

- His corruption specific to taping conversations and spying - is this really worse than the headlines the NSA is making these days?

What are specific actions that he took as President that are so unforgiveable given today's standards?

Specific actions that weigh more heavily than the positives that lombardi describes in his first post.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

- His corruption specific to taping conversations and spying - is this really worse than the headlines the NSA is making these days?

JFC, guy. Nixon wasn't casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security." He was spying on political opponents and other "subversives" to keep himself in power. That's a night and day difference.

 

[pantherclub]

Yes, he was absolutely a bad president. He was a full-blown criminal who abused the powers of his office to damage his political opponents and advance his own career. If that doesn't drop him to the bottom of your personal rankings, there's something wrong with you.

Caveat: Nixon's legacy is that nobody will ever trust the government the same way the did from 1932 to 1972. As a libertarian, I guess I should be happy about that, but that definitely isn't the legacy that Nixon meant to leave, so all of should agree that it's fair to hold it against him.

at least nobody died

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

- His corruption specific to taping conversations and spying - is this really worse than the headlines the NSA is making these days?

JFC, guy. Nixon wasn't casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security." He was spying on political opponents and other "subversives" to keep himself in power. That's a night and day difference.

The NSA is doing a helluva lot more than casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security" as you put it. Rose colored glasses.

 

[pantherclub]

seriously though Nixon destroy, completely destroyed any confidence or respect the American public had in the Presidency

maybe for all time

 

[pantherclub]

- His corruption specific to taping conversations and spying - is this really worse than the headlines the NSA is making these days?

JFC, guy. Nixon wasn't casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security." He was spying on political opponents and other "subversives" to keep himself in power. That's a night and day difference.

The NSA is doing a helluva lot more than casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security" as you put it. Rose colored glasses.

Could you give me an example or link even that even remotely compares to what Nixon did?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Yes, he was absolutely a bad president. He was a full-blown criminal who abused the powers of his office to damage his political opponents and advance his own career. If that doesn't drop him to the bottom of your personal rankings, there's something wrong with you.

Caveat: Nixon's legacy is that nobody will ever trust the government the same way the did from 1932 to 1972. As a libertarian, I guess I should be happy about that, but that definitely isn't the legacy that Nixon meant to leave, so all of should agree that it's fair to hold it against him.

at least nobody died

So?

Nobody died during the Nixon administration?

Edit: I think pantherclub and I sort of agree here, but I think I'm missing a joke or something. Probably my bad.

 

[timschochet]

British historian Paul Johnson, in his book Modern Times, has a very different take on Watergate. He argues that both Kennedy and LBJ were involved in far worse activities involving wire-tapping, breaking into opposition headquarters, using the IRS to harass opponents, etc. But Nixon got exposed because the press hated his guts.

Johnson, a conservative, is actually quite critical of Nixon's presidency for a number of issues, principally because Nixon was the most leftist, collectivist chief of state America had had up to that point. But he thinks the whole Watergate thing was totally bogus.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

- His corruption specific to taping conversations and spying - is this really worse than the headlines the NSA is making these days?

JFC, guy. Nixon wasn't casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security." He was spying on political opponents and other "subversives" to keep himself in power. That's a night and day difference.

The NSA is doing a helluva lot more than casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security" as you put it. Rose colored glasses.

Could you give me an example or link even that even remotely compares to what Nixon did?

Petrobas

 

[BobbyLayne]

Secret bombings, expanding the war in Vietnam ( nothing gained from 69-73), using government apparatus and agencies to discredit or attack those on his enemies list, expanding regulatory oversight to bloated unprecedented levels, flooding the money supply which increased inflation, expanding entitlements while shrinking the military...tell you what, leave Waterhate completely out of the discussion, and you're still left with despot. Lousy President.

China, detente, yada yada...OK, above average statesman. Terrible domestically, and his unpopular and senseless expansion of the war in Southeast Asia tore the country apart.

 

[pantherclub]

- His corruption specific to taping conversations and spying - is this really worse than the headlines the NSA is making these days?

JFC, guy. Nixon wasn't casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security." He was spying on political opponents and other "subversives" to keep himself in power. That's a night and day difference.

The NSA is doing a helluva lot more than casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security" as you put it. Rose colored glasses.

Could you give me an example or link even that even remotely compares to what Nixon did?

Petrobas

Christ, what world do you live in?

 

[DiStefano]

- His corruption specific to taping conversations and spying - is this really worse than the headlines the NSA is making these days?

JFC, guy. Nixon wasn't casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security." He was spying on political opponents and other "subversives" to keep himself in power. That's a night and day difference.

The NSA is doing a helluva lot more than casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security" as you put it. Rose colored glasses.

Could you give me an example or link even that even remotely compares to what Nixon did?

Petrobas

Christ, what world do you live in?

I've spied on Bras a lot, but that's no reason for NSA to be doing it.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

- His corruption specific to taping conversations and spying - is this really worse than the headlines the NSA is making these days?

JFC, guy. Nixon wasn't casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security." He was spying on political opponents and other "subversives" to keep himself in power. That's a night and day difference.

The NSA is doing a helluva lot more than casting an overly-wide net to "protect our national security" as you put it. Rose colored glasses.

Could you give me an example or link even that even remotely compares to what Nixon did?

Petrobas

Christ, what world do you live in?

ok

 

[Eephus]

British historian Paul Johnson, in his book Modern Times, has a very different take on Watergate. He argues that both Kennedy and LBJ were involved in far worse activities involving wire-tapping, breaking into opposition headquarters, using the IRS to harass opponents, etc. But Nixon got exposed because the press hated his guts.

Johnson, a conservative, is actually quite critical of Nixon's presidency for a number of issues, principally because Nixon was the most leftist, collectivist chief of state America had had up to that point. But he thinks the whole Watergate thing was totally bogus.

Johnson ranked Nixon second after Reagan in the Rate the Presidents thread

 

[mon]

So people are knocking Nixon for:

- His "criminalization" of Weed - this is the strongest reason I have heard, but even so, has any president elected after Nixon made any attempt to reverse this practice?

- His corruption that he tried to use his power to his advantage to profit off of. I think many presidents and veeps have done this and campaign financing and wall street contributions are still out of control.

- His corruption specific to taping conversations and spying - is this really worse than the headlines the NSA is making these days?

What are specific actions that he took as President that are so unforgiveable given today's standards?

Specific actions that weigh more heavily than the positives that lombardi describes in his first post.

Don't forget the HMO thing. That was the worst.

 

[Lutherman2112]

So people are knocking Nixon for:

- His "criminalization" of Weed - this is the strongest reason I have heard, but even so, has any president elected after Nixon made any attempt to reverse this practice?

- His corruption that he tried to use his power to his advantage to profit off of. I think many presidents and veeps have done this and campaign financing and wall street contributions are still out of control.

- His corruption specific to taping conversations and spying - is this really worse than the headlines the NSA is making these days?

What are specific actions that he took as President that are so unforgiveable given today's standards?

Specific actions that weigh more heavily than the positives that lombardi describes in his first post.

One of Nixon's big campaign promises in 1968 was " We will end this one and win the peace." Instead, he prosecuted the war endlessly while simultaneously negotiating to leave it; 15,000 additional Americans dead, another half a million Vietnamese.

Then there was the secret bombings of Cambodia; a violation of International law and most likely a violation of the original war powers act.

 

[NCCommish]

Are you comparing Benghazi to watergate?

No comparison. Nobody died in Watergate.

woah

Yeah who knew two people would be stupid in the exact same way in the same thread?