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We Need To Get Back To "Just Doing Things" Out Of Civic Duty, That We Might Realize We Are Part Of A Society (1 Viewer)

rockaction

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"But even then:  do you have a mother?  A father?  Maybe your grand parents are still with us.  Wouldn't it be nice if everyone they came into contact with had had their vaccine.  And even though your grandmother is only 86% protected from that vaccine that just isn't perfect enough--everyone she comes into contact with is also 86% protected.  

Well man, I want that for my granny.   I want it for my mom and dad.  I want it for your mom and dad.  Even if you don't.

But the biggest factor:  This just doesn't end until we hit herd immunity.  Our lives won't be the way they were in January of 2020.  We'll have a new variant.  We'll have surges.  We'll have government officials trying to tell us how to live our lives.  People used to believe in this concept of having a civid (sic) duty.  What you owe to your fellow man.  That seems dead.  People think it's all about individual rights in 2021.  How dare you ask me to wear a mask?  How dare you expect me to take this shot?  And as a result--people are still getting sick.  And our hospitals are overrun." - JM192

Please do not mistake this for just a vaccination post. I wanted to talk about something. Something very much missing from our fabric of life these days. It is the rampant individualism with which we see people act on a daily basis. We've been urged, since commercials caught the cool in about 1964, to serve the consumerist self as master, to satisfy every whim, to "just do it" when "doing it" meant serving the self, the only master.

We've been taught, through commercials and other societal zeitgeist folkways and mores, that the fulfillment of individual desires and goals would help us become self-actualized, good human beings. We've been taught that there was justice in following every whim or desire, that it was the fulfillment of these wants and desires that was good, good in the seeking, good in the having.

I'd like to posit that from social liberation to political individualism, we've lost a lot of what made us humans, made us caring. The vaccination conundrum has been but a microcosm of so many problems in society. From the lack of faith in institutions, to the problematic nature of circumstance vs. expediency, to fact vs. self-fulfilling fiction, to the instant gratification needs of everyone, to the over-entertained in us, to the rampant divisions of the self from the body politic, we've seen so many things go awry, but none has struck me like the lack of a conception of civic duty.

We seem to have lost the notion that it is right to do that which is better for everyone because it just is. We used to not question acting for others in an organized matter. Where government means were considered too risky and too antithetical to the objections of overreach, we had social organizations and charity to pick up the slack where we would not let government venture, where we did not dare let the means and machinations of politics interfere with our engagement with society. But for some reason, that died. Social capital died. Individualism, radical individualism, reigned. It reigned over many things.

It reigned over the acquisition and disposition of knowledge. Where we once trusted schools and the news, those institutions came into question from both the left and right.

It reigned over circumstance. Where we once accepted tribulations and trials of health and body and mind as a given, we now regarded them as an inconvenience to be eliminated.

It reigned over fact vs. fiction. Given the fulfillment of self, what was fact to stand in the way of more pleasant deceptions? What was to stand in the way of our fun, our gratification.

It reigned over entertainment. One must be a complete dupe to not see radical individualism in our entertainment desires, be it from the right or left.

My parents and others that grew up through the polio epidemic said you "just got it" about the vaccine. There was no great dissent. Institutions were trusted to be up front and to deliver and they did for the most part. Those on the short end of the stick just accepted it and moved on. So it seems it should be today. Life is a risk, but one that can be mitigated through the proper channels, the proper institutions. We've lost a lot of faith in those institutions, and to be fair, some of those institutions deserved the lost faith. But we've reconstructed nothing in their place except the most laissez-faire, caveat emptor ways of being. It doesn't suit a republic. Here endeth the polemic.

 
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There’s a lot to digest here, but my Clift-notes version of understanding your post is it boils down to we’ve become/are becoming more and more selfish and skeptical (in an unhealthy way).  If so, I agree.  

We also seem to be losing our common sense, or at least what little collectively we ever had.  My grandpa use to tell me as a young lad that “common sense is anything but common”.  He was right then, but if he lived today in the age of people arguing at school boards that if “God wanted us to cover our mouths he would’ve built us that way” or that we “live in a country built on freedom where people can’t tell you what to do” completely oblivious to the fact they are wearing pants that cover “what God built” or stopped at red lights and wore seat belts on the way to said school board meetings because, you know,  laws (aka being told what to do) exist, he’d lose his mind.  

Maybe I’m just getting old, mid 40’s now, and becoming into the classic old man cynical trope, but I do truly feel like we are collectively slipping into the warm bath of insanity.  

 
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Hundreds of years into the future, it will either be Idiocracy or humanity will have recovered and will furiously study this time period in an attempt to ascertain what went wrong.

 
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Yes, this is what has struck me the most over the past year: a blatant refusal to endure even the tiniest inconvenience for our fellow man. 

Empathy seems to be completely dead.
Odd example, but I have noticed that when I let other cars into traffic now and give them courtesy "go ahead" wave, I rarely get the "thanks" courtesy wave back.  It used to be that almost everyone gave you the return, but it's pretty rare now, and it's symbolic, I think, in how far we have fallen as a society.  The average person doesn't thinking of doing a nice thing for someone they don't know just because, and have little appreciation for it when someone does it for them.  

 
Lack of empathy and self awareness are poison to this country.  I've been saying this for the better part of 15 years.  Comparing people to each other rather than a consistent standard is right up there as well.

 
there is nothing above the individual is the problem. this has 95% of its origins in feminization, in placing an ethic of care over the ethic of justice. once it reached a generation of hegemony, twas galvanized by the march of selfishness (individualism,whatever - not only the need to identify, but the taboo upon harshing others' IDs) & weaponized by the forces of suckerhood. i predicted most of this on these boards toward the end of the 1st decade of this century, when i forecasted America as crashbound. anything else?

 
Lack of empathy and self awareness are poison to this country.  I've been saying this for the better part of 15 years.  Comparing people to each other rather than a consistent standard is right up there as well.


we have as much empathy as ever, we just wouldnt be caught dead empathizing. social pressure is still in daily force - high time we turned it back to our betterment

 
Funny, I was thinking yesterday after too many cocktails how it wasn't that long ago when right wing radio was promoting the idea of mandatory military service for all Americans.  Now, getting vaccinated is a bridge too far. 

 
we have as much empathy as ever, we just wouldnt be caught dead empathizing. social pressure is still in daily force - high time we turned it back to our betterment
Social pressure is still very much in force, but its better uses were mocked so thoroughly it will never see good use again. Remember when the Simpsons Lovejoy episode where the sign outside the pastor's church had a sign that read "The Miracle Of Shame," deriding the Christian Church and its methods? Well, that was just a glimpse into how modern America felt about old school social pressure. The problem is social pressure never went away. First, religiosity in the form of (you nailed it) modern feminism, then in the other shibboleths of the left (yes, it was the left). We never had it go away, it just took on different, less utilitarian forms. 

 
Social pressure is still very much in force, but its better uses were mocked so thoroughly it will never see good use again. Remember when the Simpsons Lovejoy episode where the sign outside the pastor's church had a sign that read "The Miracle Of Shame," deriding the Christian Church and its methods? Well, that was just a glimpse into how modern America felt about old school social pressure. The problem is social pressure never went away. First, religiosity in the form of (you nailed it) modern feminism, then in the other shibboleths of the left (yes, it was the left). We never had it go away, it just took on different, less utilitarian forms. 


wont argue spectrum anymore - if it wasnt always SuckerTalk™, 'tis now.

as i've cited often, the world i was born into feared every miscreance, variance, extravagance to effect the entire family. people failed job interviews because their cousin got divorced or sister was pixilated. it was the very best brand of badness with the "public good" as its oracle but works only for those with puritan perversions now. i've spent many hours wondering how it might once again abide on a grand scale. i got nuttin

 
Hundreds of years into the future, it will either be Idiocracy or humanity will have recovered and will furiously study this time period in an attempt to ascertain what went wrong.
Historians are going to define this Era as a new dark ages. Not because of the loss knowledge, but because of the loss of discernment coupled with the belief that access to information creates wisdom.

 
Historians are going to define this Era as a new dark ages. Not because of the loss knowledge, but because of the loss of discernment coupled with the belief that access to information creates wisdom.
Well, when Elon Musk's great great grandchild becomes a veritable Medici, maybe we can dig ourselves out of this hole.

 
Great topic and I couldn't agree more

If we care about each other and do things because we understand we part of a larger whole then politics become of minor importance

 
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I put my cart back every time. 

What more do you want from me? 
 I saw you riding the back of it it like the uneven bars in a gymnasium at the store. Put it back gently and don't push it from six rows over into the cart holder. And don't freakin' sit it in while your friend pushes it, you vagrant! 

Then I'll huzzah. 

 
Mead said that the first sign of civilization in an ancient culture was a femur (thighbone) that had been broken and then healed. Mead explained that in the animal kingdom, if you break your leg, you die. You cannot run from danger, get to the river for a drink or hunt for food. You are meat for prowling beasts. No animal survives a broken leg long enough for the bone to heal. broken femur that has healed is evidence that someone has taken time to stay with the one who fell, has bound up the wound, has carried the person to safety and has tended the person through recovery. Helping someone else through difficulty is where civilization starts. We are at our best when we serve others. Be civilized.

-Anthropologist Margaret Mead, when asked by a student what she considered to be the first sign of civilization in a culture.

 
Mead said that the first sign of civilization in an ancient culture was a femur (thighbone) that had been broken and then healed. Mead explained that in the animal kingdom, if you break your leg, you die. You cannot run from danger, get to the river for a drink or hunt for food. You are meat for prowling beasts. No animal survives a broken leg long enough for the bone to heal. broken femur that has healed is evidence that someone has taken time to stay with the one who fell, has bound up the wound, has carried the person to safety and has tended the person through recovery. Helping someone else through difficulty is where civilization starts. We are at our best when we serve others. Be civilized.

-Anthropologist Margaret Mead, when asked by a student what she considered to be the first sign of civilization in a culture.
Very much agreed. Lots of pioneering work outside of anthropology, even, that altruism is the first sign of our civilization. Tradition, things that by reason many here want to overthrow, also plays a huge, huge role in continuing primitive societies that would otherwise have been wiped out. 

 
But let's stick to the role of basic cooperation among those in a society, furthering society and individual interests, even. 

 
We are raising generations who are all about "me"......do what feels good for you.... and I'm not talkin about rugged individualism.

Also there's the conspiracy theorists...

 
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We seem to have lost the notion that it is right to do that which is better for everyone because it just is.


we live in a society where selfishness and "follow your heart" rules

its actually celebrated and credited and proves how strong and courageous people are ..... to do what is best for them - abortion, adultery, drugs, etc etc

so when a group comes along that is doing the same thing (being strong and true to ourselves by not getting vaccinated) ..... isn't it ironic the groups above hate us for our personal choices? our body our choice right ?

 
so when a group comes along that is doing the same thing (being strong and true to ourselves by not getting vaccinated) ..... isn't it ironic the groups above hate us for our personal choices? our body our choice right ?
Yes, it is a double standard. But you won't find that here. I do not laud abortion or radical individualism for almost all of society. I think that, in pockets, radical individualism is okay. As a societal ethic, no. 

And I'm not sure I want to let this get sidetracked into a left/right discussion anyway. It is the overall license with which we approach everything that is my subject. 

 
I always consider it my athletic feat of the day, actually. I even extend my arms after the push and hold them there like a NBA star holding his shooting hand aloft after the three. 
Just did exactly this this weekend at Costco. I even nailed the cart into the existing carts swish. Nothing but net.  

 
Bowling Alone is a good read that looks at one possible contributing theme. I’m sure many have read it but figured I’d mention it here:

Bowling Alone surveyed in detail Americans’ changing behavior over the decades, showing how we had become increasingly disconnected from family, friends, neighbors, and social structures, whether it’s with the PTA, church, clubs, political parties, or bowling leagues. In the revised edition of his classic work, Putnam shows how our shrinking access to the “social capital” that is the reward of communal activity and community sharing still poses a serious threat to our civic and personal health, and how these consequences have a new resonance for our divided country today. He includes critical new material on the pervasive influence of social media and the internet, which has introduced previously unthinkable opportunities for social connection—as well as unprecedented levels of alienation and isolation. 

 
Everyday I get up and pray to Jah
And he increases the number of clocks
By exactly one
Everybody's coming home for lunch these days
Last night there were skinheads on my lawn

Take the skinheads bowling
Take them bowling
Take the skinheads bowling
Take them bowling

 
Bowling Alone is a good read that looks at one possible contributing theme. I’m sure many have read it but figured I’d mention it here:

Bowling Alone surveyed in detail Americans’ changing behavior over the decades, showing how we had become increasingly disconnected from family, friends, neighbors, and social structures, whether it’s with the PTA, church, clubs, political parties, or bowling leagues. In the revised edition of his classic work, Putnam shows how our shrinking access to the “social capital” that is the reward of communal activity and community sharing still poses a serious threat to our civic and personal health, and how these consequences have a new resonance for our divided country today. He includes critical new material on the pervasive influence of social media and the internet, which has introduced previously unthinkable opportunities for social connection—as well as unprecedented levels of alienation and isolation. 
Yes, I've never read the book Bowling Alone, but its theme and conclusion were very familiar. I worked at a think tank in the nineties that was very conservative. De Tocqueville was the order of the day, and his writings on Americans and voluntary associations has always stuck with me. Fukuyama started to identify the economic impacts of social capital is his book Trust, which I am currently "reading." 

We'll see how my "reading" goes. (I've been "reading" the first two or three chapters for about six months now.)

Anyway, de Tocqueville: https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/805328.html

 
The danger of this thread is that there is universal agreement yet individualism continues to reign supreme as the highest good via logic, rationalization, and theory. 

It's in the doing. Even things against our sociopolitical inclinations. Listen to tradition, to majoritarian impulses rather than individualistic, seemingly self-affirming or even life-fulfilling ones. We need a different conception of fulfillment, of self-actualization. 

Do tough things voluntarily. The drum major speech is a great one. Do the altruistic with vigor and let your thymos be assuaged by your servitude. Nietzsche would laugh and call it a "slave morality." Nietzsche's proscriptions were borne of unhappiness and have overseen a century and a half of it. 

Let the drum major in you serve others. 

 
Yes, it is a double standard. But you won't find that here. I do not laud abortion or radical individualism for almost all of society. I think that, in pockets, radical individualism is okay. As a societal ethic, no. 

And I'm not sure I want to let this get sidetracked into a left/right discussion anyway. It is the overall license with which we approach everything that is my subject. 


but it kinda IS a left/right thing because we're split as a nation along political lines (political often can be broken down into core values, conservative/liberal etc)

the overall license changes - depending on who wants what doesn't it ?

a quick google says

Civic duties ensure that democratic values written into the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are upheld. Responsibilities include both those that are voluntary as well as those required by law.

 
but it kinda IS a left/right thing because we're split as a nation along political lines (political often can be broken down into core values, conservative/liberal etc)

the overall license changes - depending on who wants what doesn't it ?

a quick google says

Civic duties ensure that democratic values written into the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are upheld. Responsibilities include both those that are voluntary as well as those required by law.
To transcend the modern conundrums of the left/right split is what this thread is about. Individualism permeates our lives in all sorts of ways, some of which comes from the right, some of which comes from the left. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to categorize the split, but hopefully this thread stays above the usual reductionism and bad analogies.

 
I'm grateful to have stumbled across this so that I at least have heard of something of King's besides "I Have a Dream", but far less fortunate because I have given up expecting anything this beneficial to our collective psyche to take hold.

But yes, I think it would benefit the OP and any other 'civic-minded' folks here to give it a read and realize that there have always been 'me first' people and that they have always wanted to do good for others; nevertheless, here is what I think is one of the more relevant parts of Dr. King's sermon:

...everybody can be great, because everybody can serve. You don't have to have a college degree to serve. You don't have to make your subject and your verb agree to serve. You don't have to know about Plato and Aristotle to serve. You don't have to know Einstein's theory of relativity to serve. You don't have to know the second theory of thermodynamics in physics to serve. You only need a heart full of grace, a soul generated by love.
For me, it's those last two qualities listed that are the most important yet the most lacking today. 

 
To transcend the modern conundrums of the left/right split is what this thread is about. Individualism permeates our lives in all sorts of ways, some of which comes from the right, some of which comes from the left. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to categorize the split, but hopefully this thread stays above the usual reductionism and bad analogies.


we live in a society that is thriving on division - fracturing and splitting off citizens of the United States into many small groups because people want to feel special

self segregation and then blame everything on everyone else right? be in a little sub-group based on skin color or where your great great great grandparents lived or sexual choices or income or whatever ........... 

and then cry foul and don't understand when everyone doesn't come together on something that's important to them ........ its fascinating isn't it ? 

 
we live in a society that is thriving on division - fracturing and splitting off citizens of the United States into many small groups because people want to feel special

self segregation and then blame everything on everyone else right? be in a little sub-group based on skin color or where your great great great grandparents lived or sexual choices or income or whatever ........... 

and then cry foul and don't understand when everyone doesn't come together on something that's important to them ........ its fascinating isn't it ? 
Indeed you'll note that I started a thread on intersectionality politics and both wikkid and I lamented the individual fragmentation happening in the name of equality. I even was starting a sub-section on the frontier of self as achieved via identity politics but haven't had a chance to finish it.  

I'm really not interested in rehashing old tropes about identity politics. They're very easy to spot as radically separating away from communal impulses. That said, you pointing it out as a left/right issue is telling. If you cannot see the right doing this with individual capital and individuated news/facts, then I know what your presence in the thread is largely about. 

You just started a thread about "trust" and how you never trust government. You gave nary a thought to first principles nor a thought to the bedrock upon with governance arises. What on earth could you possibly be griping about when it comes to unrepentant individualism from the left? 

I see no need to humor your stuff like other people do. 

 
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If you cannot see the right doing this with individual capital and individuated news/facts, then I know what your presence in the thread is largely about. 


do I have to see it your was for it to be right ?

You just started a thread about "trust" and how you never trust government. You gave nary a thought to first principles nor a thought to the bedrock upon with governance arises. What on earth could you possibly be griping about when it comes to unrepentant individualism from the left? 


this is true - because the Govt continually fails people - you said so yourself

I see no need to humor your stuff like other people do. 


because I don't agree with you ? 

 
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we live in a society that is thriving on division - fracturing and splitting off citizens of the United States into many small groups because people want to feel special
If you replace 'society' with 'mass media' or 'people with power to influence the masses', I would agree; otherwise, I believe the majority of human instinct is to find common ground with others, and I believe in 99% of my daily interactions at work or out and about reflect this.  It's when we start latching on to narratives that tickle our egos and play to our fear of 'other' that we get in trouble.  Who is really thriving on our division? I believe it's anyone who focuses and draws your attention to the negative side of the world.  "If it bleeds, it leads" has sold newspapers forever, so it's not one 'side' or the other that I blame but rather the manipulation of events for profit. I'd rather have my news only cover the basics of who, what, where and when. Instead, we've become overly concerned about the why, which is what fuels most of the debates here and in the media and makes them the most money.

 
If you replace 'society' with 'mass media' or 'people with power to influence the masses', I would agree; otherwise, I believe the majority of human instinct is to find common ground with others, and I believe in 99% of my daily interactions at work or out and about reflect this.  It's when we start latching on to narratives that tickle our egos and play to our fear of 'other' that we get in trouble.  Who is really thriving on our division? I believe it's anyone who focuses and draws your attention to the negative side of the world.  "If it bleeds, it leads" has sold newspapers forever, so it's not one 'side' or the other that I blame but rather the manipulation of events for profit. I'd rather have my news only cover the basics of who, what, where and when. Instead, we've become overly concerned about the why, which is what fuels most of the debates here and in the media and makes them the most money.


sometimes I feel like that - that we as people have far more agreements than disagreements if we just sat around a table and had dinner you know ? you're right - media gorges itself on conflict and strife and division 

other times I lose all hope for humanity and humans in general - today is one of those day 

 

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