I honestly didn't know that.
So the Raiders only won two conf championships out of nine during that era, and just the one Super Bowl? Yikes...
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What is left to say about the New England Patriots? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
So the Raiders only won two conf championships out of nine during that era, and just the one Super Bowl? Yikes...greggorymac
Footballguy
Very cool run by the raiders, but not sure if it's quite fair to compare dynasties between the pre and post salary cap eras (1994).I honestly didn't know that.
GoBirds
Footballguy
About time he got called out, what a D bag.harsh,but true!
do they still have the cheesy 16-0 banners flying at Gillette..?
BB declining the post game interview, and listening to Shannon Sharpe call him out on it, was priceless...
Answering my own question:1970-1982 Dallas, 10 times in 13 years, 5-5 record1981-1997 San Francisco, 10 times in 17 years, 5-51970-1980 Oakland 7 times in 11 years, 2-5 2001-2012 New England, 7 times in 12 years, 5-2That's about it. Next closest would be 1972-1984 Pittsburgh (7 times in 13 years, 4-3), 1994-2010 Pittsburgh (8 times in 17 years, 4-4)
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Steelers made the conference championship 6 time in 8 years. 72-79. 4-2.
the 49ers also made 7-in-12. And if you continue they also had 8-in-13. 9-in-14.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
IMO, it's much harder to win for an extended period with the current free agency / salary cap system.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Yes it is. New England is a great team consistently. No doubt. But I think the arrogance of their fanbase really turns other fans off. Part of the price of success I guess. I was hoping for a New England / San Fran matchup after my Packers lost. I'll be interested to see if the Pats can continue their success after Brady like the Packers have post-Favre.
bostonfred
Footballguy
2000 - BB takes over team, tom brady drafted. Team goes 5-11 with drew bledsoe2001 - richard seymour drafted. bledsoe injured, brady takes over. Tuck rule game could have gone either way, brady hurts ankle in first half of pittsburgh game, coach decides to stick with him over bledsoe in controversial call, still hurting brady leads them to superbowl win2002 - after a hot start, defense gets destroyed by stud running backs in game after game after game. Brady leads league in passing tds, leads pats to 9-7 record but misses playoffs on tiebreaker.2003 - brady leads pats to second superbowl win in antowain smiths last year. Brady outduels both regular season co-mvps, beating mcnair and manning in back to back weeks before winning a shootout against carolina. Branch and givens drafted, brown goes to pro bowl2004 - vince wilfork drafted. brady leads pats to third superbowl win in corey dillons first year. Considered their best team of the three. Brady outduels regular season (and record setting) manning again in afc championship game. Branch wins superbowl mvp by setting superbowl record for receptions.2005 - pats lose to denver, who always gave them fits2006 - pats bet out to big lead against indy in afccg, but lose 3/4 of their secondary in the second half. defense can't stop manning, and brady can't get one more score to put it away. 2007 - brady wins regular season mvp award by setting the td record with 50, helping moss set the td record for receivers at 24, and leading the highest scoring offense of all time to the first 16-0 season in nfl history. 18-1 patriots lead in the final minute of the superbowl, but lose after the miracle catch by tyree2008 - brady injured by bernard pollard on first drive of the season. Cassel comes in and plays well. Patriots are one of two teams to ever miss the playoffs with an 11-5 record.2009 - brady comes back, but is nowhere near his 2007 form. Seymour is gone, and Moss also plays below expectations. Welker emerges as clear favorite target. Patriots get blown out by ravens in first round.2010 - brady wins regular season mvp award by throwing 36 tds and only 4 ints, setting the interception record, but the defense is clearly getting worse. Gronkowski and hernandez drafted, both look good. Moss gets shown the door early in the season, and can't stick with a new team. Welker injured by bernard pollard at end of regular season, and the Patriots lose to jets in playoffs after beating them twice in the regular season.2011 - ridley and vereen drafted, although vereen is hurt early and never sees the field. Brady breaks marinos long standing record by throwing for over 5000 yards, but the 31st ranked defense is terrible, with julian edelman getting regular time at cornerback, and a revolving door of free agents throughout the season. Gronkowski injured in afccg against ravens, again by bernard pollard. Patriots go to their fifth superbowl in eleven years, but lose again to the giants in a game they led in the final minutes.2012 - defensive overhaul begins, as patriots finally use the draft picks they've hoarded to improve all three levels of their defense. After early season stumbles including a loss to arizona en route to a 3-3 record, the pats manage to take the second seed and beat houston to host their seventh afccg in 12 years, but Gronk injured for season. Get destroyed by the ravens, as they lose talib, chung, and ridley to injuries in the game. I think at this point we are seeing phase two of the patriots. Brady still looks good, they have made huge changes on defense, and seem to be getting good again, but the offensive line has turned over substantially and they could use some help there. The depth on defense is suspect, the secondary could use help, and the d line is aging. There's still a window.After a lot of good fortune early in their run, the pats arguably had their postseason hopes ended in five of the last seven years by badly timed injuries as much as anything else, including this years afccg. If they can stay healthy at the end of the next couple seasons, they should contend once again. That's as good as you can hope for as a patriots fan.
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BRONG
FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY
bostonfred
Footballguy
What did you want me to say? Should have lost the game? Its not enough to acknowledge the good luck they had in that game? I think im being a lot more fair than you are here.I was interested to read your timeline, bf, but honestly stopped right there.
BRONG
FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY
It was a fumble. Just admit it.What did you want me to say? Should have lost the game? Its not enough to acknowledge the good luck they had in that game? I think im being a lot more fair than you are here.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Ok, it was a fumble. Now why are you lmaoing?It was a fumble. Just admit it.What did you want me to say? Should have lost the game? Its not enough to acknowledge the good luck they had in that game? I think im being a lot more fair than you are here.
shader
Footballguy
I think losing Gronk really hurt this team. He was a matchup problem that made the whole offense click. His emergence over the past two years is what brought the Patriots back to prominence when it looked like they might be headed in a downward spiral.That being said, the Pats have to get better on defense. I think this year was a good step forward and there is a lot of young talent. I look forward to next year and can't wait to see what the Pats do in free agency and the draft.How is the cap room looking? I'd love to see them go after one of the stud WR's. Greg Jennings on this offense would be fun to watch.
BRONG
FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY
I thought you were trying to say it was arguable, the call. Once I hear that from Patriots fans I usually just move on. It's silly to me so it's best just to lmao it, imo.Ok, it was a fumble. Now why are you lmaoing?It was a fumble. Just admit it.What did you want me to say? Should have lost the game? Its not enough to acknowledge the good luck they had in that game? I think im being a lot more fair than you are here.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I heard an interesting hypothetical this morning. The theory was that the Pats might let Welker walk and instead sign a deeper threat and speed guy instead of an underneath guy like Welker. The thought being that Welker getting 1200 yards on 120 receptions is not worth as much as a deep threat getting 1200 yards on half as many catches. It would require teams to defend diiferent parts of the field as Welker, who roams similar real estate as the other receiving options.The strategy would be to play two TEs in Gronk (6'6", 265) and Jake Ballard (6'6", 275) with Hernandez in the slot (6'1", 245), allowing the Pats to run all day long with a massive push off the line. Add in the speed receiver as a play action threat and Demps in the backfield and the offense could look completely different and remain effective in much different ways. They might score fewer points but could take much more time off the clock and keep the defense off the field.
shader
Footballguy
I think they can move on from Welker and still be fine.
Mike Wallace? Jennings? Bowe?
I don't think this is so much hypothetical as much as it is very similar to what they already tried to pull off to start this season, when Welkers playing time was diminished. Two things went wrong with this plan. Lloyd could not get separation and become the deep threat the hoped he could become and Hernandez got hurt.
moleculo
Footballguy
Wow. a team that could pass consistently out of a 3 TE set would be really, really tough to game plan around. isn't Lloyd a good enough down-field threat?
moleculo
Footballguy
Just a tier below that - Broncos were in 6-in-13 between 1986 and 1998, going 5-1.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
As I see it, Lloyd is more of a Deion Branch type (from the old days), but they don't have someone to run deeper routes. There were issues with Lloyd and Brady being on the same page this year with Lloyd zigging when Brady thought he was zagging.From what I can tell, even if both guys are in sync running the same play, there are on the fly options and reads that can determine which side the ball will be on, what the final break to the ball should be, etc. So Lloyd would get most of the play right but sometimes not the last part.I think they are mostly happy with Lloyd, but he was not the savior some folks thought they were getting. I think they will continue to use him on short and intermediate routes, but I don't think they see him as a consistent deep threat.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
yeah, absolutely --- not to take away from the great teams of yesteryear, but most of those dynasties were prior to salary caps and free agency, and weren't exactly on a level playing field.just as an illustration, since there are so many threads about which qb is the greatest and which are chokers --- in 1990, the great joe montana led his team to a league best 14 wins and the conference championship.the final 4 teams that year were all top 7 in team payroll, but one had even an extra edge -- one of those final 4 teams had a payroll 25% higher than the other 3 teams, 50% higher than league median, and actually 100% higher than a rival in their own division.that team? the niners.since the board seems to like these thought experiments so much, I wonder what brady's legacy would be if we turned the clock back 5-6 years, gave the pats an extra 30-60m in annual payroll, while knocking the jets down 40m.I wouldn't mind seeing brady throwing to fitz with peterson in the backfield and a couple pro-bowlers on defense.
moleculo
Footballguy
Interesting.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I'm not right on top of the cap (edit: looks like they have ~20m+), but I think the tightest they were at was when they traded cassel, and since then it's gotten progressively more comfortable with the influx of young players over the last few years on rookie deals.wilfork and mayo are probably teh only guys on defense making any kind of money, and it remains to be seen who gets the money on offense, although hernandez and gronk, 2 key pieces, were recently signed for what I'd call team friendly deals.
mankins and brady would be the big ticket items, with receiver being the question -- welker getting all the press, but lloyd is due a 3m option bonus, I believe.
there are 50+ guys under contract, with not all that many notables unsigned:
CB Kyle Arrington (would've been 3rd corner behind rookie dennard and talib)
CB Aqib Talib
S Patrick Chung (has really already been replaced by rookie tavon wilson and the signing of gregory)
WR Julian Edelman
WR Wes Welker
RB Danny Woodhead (replaced by demps/vereen?)
RT Sebastian Vollmer
they've also got jake ballard and jeff demps waiting in the wings.
cb ras ir dowling, who they drafted 2 years ago, might make a reappearance, but I wouldn't want to bank on that guy.
edit: Patriots signed former USC and Toronto Argonauts DT Armond Armstead to a reserve/future contract.
and apparently this guy, whoever he is.
http://www.sidelinescouting.com/rankings/2012/dt/armond-armstead/
it's fair to say the defense needs work, but I think a bit of an unfair complaint when the offense puts up 13 points in the final game.
you might point to gronkowski being out, but they still need to do better than that, and if you want to use that as an excuse, what about the 3 defensive starters they were missing?
pass rush has been an issue for the last few years, so they traded up to get chandler jones this year --- he came in on another sprained ankle and probably played 2 snaps.
he should be better in his second year on healthy ankles.
kyle love (starting tackle) got knocked out on the first drive.
talib left early, but may never return.
in theory, tavon wilson, dennard, hightower, chandler jones, and maybe even bequette and justin francis would be better in their 2nd year on defense.
edit: to sum up, I think they still need a safety, but cb and o-line are probably the most pressing issues.
those are also positions they probably draft just about every year, which makes sense, as they account for a big chunk of the roster.
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Using Brady to throw lots of deep balls isn't optimal by any stretch of the imagination.Maybe the offense must do this, but you would be moving totally away from Bradys strength.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I doubt that would happen, and that's not really what I thoink they would do. Having a deep threat would change how opponents would have to scheme for them and would make a nightmare for defensive coordinators. They would have to play closer to the line and put more guys in the box to stop the run with 8 fairly large sized blockers. They would still have the short and underneath and short game they have now in the passing game. But they would have an option to go over the top, which they really haven't had since Moss was there. It doesn't mean they would have to throw 10 bombs a game, but teams would have to respect it and shift coverage to account for it. I would guess they would take 3 or 4 shots downfield a game. I think overall it would open up more space in the middle of the field, would set up some great play action opportunities with the improving running game, and would help the offense as a whole.
