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What Will It Take For The US To Be Competitive In World Cup? (1 Viewer)

I don't think you're saying this but FTR I don't think the talent in MLS is terrible. And it's bound to improve, which not many leagues in the world can say. We're not far from raiding South America on a regular basis for some serious talent. Their league structures suffer from horrendous corruption issues and tactically they may be falling behind Europe just a smidge but they still produce tons of guys who can flat out play, guys who would be ok playing in their home hemisphere for decent money.
This is very accurate IMO. 

I think your paragraph out lines pretty much the next ten years of MLS's evolution.  It has already made significant steps in this direction the last two years.

Hopefully these higher quality technical players can help rub off on the American's in the league, of which technical skill is the weakest spot.

 
A lot of great posts here.  I see it as a 3-fold problem.  I've been known to talk nonsense before so take it with a grain of salt.

1) The US is in decent shape.  Pulisic, McKinnie, Weah and a host of other young kids are doing very well.  The focus of the national team seems to have moved to the younger generation, which should be good.  These guys could potentially be a part of 3 world cups.  The MLS is making strides, there are a ton of good young players and I think things are moving in a positive direction.  BUT, as others have pointed out, many other countries are doing this too.  Many countries want to succeed at the world cup and have the support of their entire county in that goal.  By and large, the US missing the WC was a funny twitter meme.  Yeah, some people were angry and upset, but the levels of angst compared to Italy were far different.

2)  Few options for players to stay home, learn the game, and turn into an elite player. As has been mentioned in this thread, its' difficult to go overseas.  If you're a kid in England, you can find a great academy and stay at home or your family can move with fewer issues. But moving overseas? That's hard.  England has a pyramid system of clubs that have academies where kids get proper coaching.  This, however, may be changing.  Alphonso Davies is 17 and has been trained for Vancouver (MLS) and is being sought after by many teams in Europe.  (he's Canadian, not American btw). The key is to get young kids quality training and instruction so that they can get to the MLS and get discovered by European teams.  I think with the MLS academies, this will begin to happen more and more.  If the youth system were bare, this would be a huge concern. But it's not.  It appears things are going well and progressing.

3) Talent.  I don't fault people for saying that "we gotta get the best athletes to play the sport".  It makes sense and there are certainly arguments to be made for doing that.  The only problem is that the "athletic skills" needed for soccer don't really translate to other sports as well.  It's not as if our NBA players would be world cup stars if they had only begun life with a soccer ball at their feet. Lebron James would not necessarily make a superior soccer player.  BUT...I think there's still some truth in this. The soccer players players produced by the US are rarely elite athletes.  France has a superstar 19-year old Kylian Mbappe.  He truly has next level speed.  https://www.si.com/soccer/2017/12/11/kylian-mbappe-records-frightening-speed-statistics-paris-saint-germains-win-over-lille

His top levels have approached Usain Bolt levels of speed.  The US has never to my knowledge, had an athlete like him in the soccer team.  BUT....the US has plenty of athletes at his level or higher playing other sports.  If Mbappe's parents had lived in the US, he would never have made the soccer team.  He would have been stolen by the "bigger sports" early in life.  So while the athletes that the US has on the soccer team are plenty athletic enough to compete in the WC, it cannot be denied that the upper echelon of athletes in the USA don't focus on soccer from an early age.  I'm shocked to see some in this thread try to deny that or act as if this is a "newbie" argument.  In that I wholeheartedly disagree.  Obviously being fast doesn't equal success in soccer, but the US pushes out elite athletes year after year, and few of them decide to play soccer full-time.

In any event, I think things are slowly improving in this country.  The MLS is the quickest path to change, so if this means something to you, you should go support your local MLS team.

 
This is very accurate IMO. 

I think your paragraph out lines pretty much the next ten years of MLS's evolution.  It has already made significant steps in this direction the last two years.

Hopefully these higher quality technical players can help rub off on the American's in the league, of which technical skill is the weakest spot.
Thanks. I'm just repeating what I've heard lots of others say about MLS when they say the talent is bad. That's good to know if it's not. 

 
Haven't looked lately butI think MLS is top 10 worldwide in both attendance and revenue.  So a long way behind the very top leagues, but still pretty good overall.

 
I agree with my esteemed (and more experienced) colleagues in that we're plenty athletic enough. We're just as fast and just as big and just as quick and just as fit as every other team in the world. We're decades behind in ball skills. 

Surely even the once-every-four-years watchers could see that the good Euro teams could handle the ball in ways that we never have been able to. And I don't know how being able to cover an NFL wide receiver automatically translates into a guy being able to dribble a futbol. But perhaps it's possible that there are guys who play our domestic sports at a modest level who would have been better off perfecting their close triangle passing instead.

 
I agree with my esteemed (and more experienced) colleagues in that we're plenty athletic enough. We're just as fast and just as big and just as quick and just as fit as every other team in the world. We're decades behind in ball skills. .
yup, this is pretty much it.

Some teams are bigger, most are not.

Some teams are faster, most are not.

But nearly every team that is better than the US is significantly more skilled, which allows them to play faster (not run faster, they are two completely different things).

I do find it a bit ironic that most people think that once the African American's start playing in huge numbers we will instantly be one of the best playing countries while not realizing where all of Africa's team's (who are LOADED with big, fast players) exist in the scheme of things.

 
Surely even the once-every-four-years watchers could see that the good Euro teams could handle the ball in ways that we never have been able to. And I don't know how being able to cover an NFL wide receiver automatically translates into a guy being able to dribble a futbol. .
You should look up the story of Chad Johnson (Ochocinco) when he trained with an MLS side during the 2011 lock out, since it is kind of what you are talking about here.

 
The Soccernomics guys are also of the opinion that part of our problem is that we are too distant from the great information and innovation centers of western Europe (we're not the only ones in this regard, either). A part of the world where the game is approached both scientifically and creatively and information quickly spreads through the community, kinda like what happens in our domestic tech centers. It's a lot harder for an African, Asian or American player to tap into that network on a regular basis. Small sample, to be sure, but three of this year's semifinalists are from that neck of the woods and half the Croatian squad plays in it.

 
We're moving in the right direction, honestly.  It's been touched on here already, but MLS has improved drastically in the last decade.  Still, Europe has 6-7 leagues that are currently better than the MLS.  They also have 50+ leagues better than our second best leagues, the USL and NASL.

What that means is that a young, talented European has a chance to compete at a much higher level than a young American player.  The other thing about this is that since Europe has been playing competitive football for generations, all those leagues have access to a level of coaching that we don't have in the US, which is another huge boost for all the young talented Europeans.

Add this to a culture that worships football to the point where towns shut down when the local team is playing(much like Texas high school football) and we are a long ways from ever being competitive on a similar level as the best teams in Europe, at least at a consistent basis.  It's changing and much more quickly than it appears to be sometimes, but it's going to take a lot of time.

 
you have to love the FFA.  Numerous people in thread mention how this is one of the worst takes possible and yet someone just jumps in with out reading and propagates the myth.  
i agree with the take.  if we had a soccer league that paid a 5million average salary and regularly paid the very best guys upwards of 40million, do you think we’d have a competitive team?

 
This is very accurate IMO. 

I think your paragraph out lines pretty much the next ten years of MLS's evolution.  It has already made significant steps in this direction the last two years.

Hopefully these higher quality technical players can help rub off on the American's in the league, of which technical skill is the weakest spot.
Sorry if this was already covered - but does it hurt MLS because its season is the opposite of every other league in the world? Would it be better if MLS played through the winter?

 
i agree with the take.  if we had a soccer league that paid a 5million average salary and regularly paid the very best guys upwards of 40million, do you think we’d have a competitive team?
A team that could make WC final game? Not for a while. We'd simply be importing talent like what the Chinese Super League is doing. It wouldn't make the USMNT play at that level for another generation.

 
Lol at the soccernerds thinking their sport is any more complex than the other big four.

And I say that in love. <3

 
i agree with the take.  if we had a soccer league that paid a 5million average salary and regularly paid the very best guys upwards of 40million, do you think we’d have a competitive team?
I might be completely misunderstanding you but this does not make sense to me,

If we had a league like that, we would have the best players in the world playing it, none of which would be American.  How does that make the US better?

We have to build slowly and organically.  If MLS grows too big too fast, American players will be left behind.  You can already see it now in the league where the South Americans are better and preferred over US players.

 
Sorry if this was already covered - but does it hurt MLS because its season is the opposite of every other league in the world? Would it be better if MLS played through the winter?
I think it makes transferring players a little harder but outside of that I don't think it has a big effect.

And we don't really have much choice right now.  We have too many northern teams, and only one plays in a dome stadium. 

 
"Why is Joe Bryant shoving soccer down our throats?"

Ok, this will make my fellow soccer dorks cringe so I promise not to belabor the point. But the English Football Association has 7,000 clubs in its pyramid. Which means that every crossroads town in the country has a club playing at some level and many of those have youth programs attached. It not only adds up to a continual showcase of new talent coming through the pipeline but places for that talent to move up to as well. But mostly it means that the fabric and soul of the game is embedded in every Altoona and Storm Lake in the country -- it's their Friday Night Lights and Saturday afternoon Gameday all in one. It's THE game on the weekend, no matter where you live or what level your local plays at.

A stronger MLS will help but we'll never be as good as anyone else on a consistent level with two dozen serious clubs when we should have 30 thousand. And every little boy in town dreaming of playing for the home team.

[endrant]


Start with love of the game. You work harder at and have a greater interest in something you love. Love is learned. I have a good friend who doesn't care about soccer. But both of his sons played soccer through HS. It was the only sport they played in HS. Now that their playing days are over they are more interested in watching football, basketball, and baseball because those are the sports they grew up with on the TV at home and going to the games with their old man. It will take some time before the Chicago Fire supplants the Bears, Bulls, Cubs, Sox, and Hawks in Chicago sports' lore no matter how many kids are kicking soccer balls around the parks here.
 
anyone who says the talent is terrible does not follow the league even in the smallest bit.  It is one of those hot takes that people who have no knowledge of a subject like to spout just so that they think they are being heard.

MLS is far from a top league but so are 99.9% of the leagues in the world.  Read this twice if you have to. 

After the top 4 or 5 leagues, it is just a jumbled mess of various talent levels.

I can safely speak from a point of knowledge that no league in the world has seen its talent pool grow more than MLS has in the last ten years.  It has come a long way and has a long way to go to get close to a top league.

One thing that might not be understood by many who don't follow either the sport or MLS is that MLS is structured much differently than most leagues.  Most leagues around the world push their top talent into 3 or 4 teams where in MLS they follow more of the American model of spreading as much talent as possible around the league.

If MLS followed this policy, its top teams would be significantly better than they are today and perception might change since many judge a league on its best teams and not on the average team.
Hey man you have a love for the topic which is admirable, but you also come off extremely condescending, as if your opinion on the topic is the only one that can possibly be correct.

 
must be over 150ish pro leagues at least, especially once you start counting Championship and Bundesliga 2 type leagues.
I'm asking so I can understand... I don't want to compare the Astros to the El Paso Diablos.

Top 10 out of how many legit leagues?  I assume the MLS isn't aiming for minor league status?

If they are top 10 out of 150 great, if only 9 of those are legit - not so great.  Give me some perspective/context.

 
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I'm asking so I can understand... I don't want to compare the Astros to the El Paso Diablos.

Top 10 out of how many legit leagues?  I assume the MLS isn't aiming for minor league status?
I don't know how to answer that.  I can only tell you how many there are.  You would have to list a specific definition of what you consider viable. 

I could come up with 50 in a blink of an eye that I would consider viable first division pro leagues but your definition may vary from mine.

 
Hey man you have a love for the topic which is admirable, but you also come off extremely condescending, as if your opinion on the topic is the only one that can possibly be correct.
feel free to disagree with what ever I have presented.  I enjoy a good discussion with people who are knowledgeable on a topic.  I am always willing to learn more. 

I do not enjoy hot takes that seem to spew rhetoric that lacks any depth.  It can be as painful as reading the political board for me.  But that is my issue of course, not yours so I guess I should just try and ignore those types of posts.

 
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I don't know how to answer that.  I can only tell you how many there are.  You would have to list a specific definition of what you consider viable. 

I could come up with 50 in a blink of an eye that I would consider viable first division pro leagues but your definition may vary from mine.
I don't really have a definition.  I'm not versed in the least here.

eta - having said that if you consider 50 leagues viable as "first division" I might suggest narrowing down your scope.  You seem to be severely watering down that term.

 
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Now as for what would it take to ascend to that next level, the MLS has to get about 50x better than it is, or we have to get players who can get minutes for quality Euro clubs, which seems extremely unlikely to me. 
Players getting minutes in Euro: do we have any Americans playing significant roles on major Euro teams?

Who is or has been America’s soccer version of Michael Jordan, Tom Brady, etc?

Freddy Adoo (I think that was his name) was supposed to be some soccer phenom and I don’t think he even came close to being really that good at all. Is he still playing anywhere? 

 
ok then I really can't answer your question any better unfortunately.  There are a ton of leagues.  They range in every size imaginable.
The Adriatic League is a top 10 professional basketball league.  So like that?

Or more like the Australian National Basketball League?

 
Are people trying to get into the MLS from other pro leagues or are they trying to get out of MLS to get to other leagues?

 
Players getting minutes in Euro: do we have any Americans playing significant roles on major Euro teams? 
Depends on what you mean by major teams.  If you are talking the 10 best teams in the world, then no (or at least no until Pulisic gets transferred).

If you are asking if we have any players in the major leagues then yes we do. 

 
Like when Stephon Marbury went to China and like when Yao Ming came from China.

So not really a "first division".. like a "plan B" division.
I have no idea what you are talking about.  I think I am going to tap out here as I don't seem to be following your point.

 
Depends on what you mean by major teams.  If you are talking the 10 best teams in the world, then no (or at least no until Pulisic gets transferred).

If you are asking if we have any players in the major leagues then yes we do. 
I don’t understand the soccer leagues. The “10 best teams in the world”... do they play in their own league only against each other or are they the best 10 teams in a league that plays these other teams that has Americans on them? 

 
Some thoughts after perusing this thread.

A) It is shocking how little the average FFAer understands about soccer...I live in Southern California, admittedly a soccer hotbed where we had our entire office glued to the TV for the past two weeks...most very knowledgable not just about US soccer but about global soccer.   

B) Italy didn't make the World Cup and they are a top footballing country and they have one of the top 4 leagues in the world behind only Germany, EPL, La Liga.(based on quality).  The point is this, the USA not making the WorldCup a single cycle is not indicative of the growth of the sport or the competition level of our domestic league.  Not even close.

C) Soccer has continued to make huge strides, including the growth and popularity of MLS not to mention in youth sports...these facts are indisputable by pretty much every metric.

D) It will take time to catch up to Europe and South America, but we will in our lifetime...our top talent is being increasingly tapped and developed by Europe, moreseo than ever before.  Also, the MLS academies are starting to churn out national team quality...meaning, we are producing talent locally at a greater rate than we have before.

Anybody who doesn't see the growth of the sport in the USA doesn't follow soccer closely or is ignoring the facts.  You don't catch up with 100 years of European culture and infrastructure in 20 years, but we are catching up and we will be a persistent powerhouse.  The trajectory of the sport in the USA all but proves that and missing 1 world cup does nothing to disprove that.

 
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I have no idea what you are talking about.  I think I am going to tap out here as I don't seem to be following your point.
Steph couldn't make it in the NBA (basketball's "first" division), so he went to China.  The reverse for Yao.

Your own words.. in China's Pro League they are going both directions.  Only severely lopsided in which direction we are talking about.

So are more people moving up from MLS or down from other leagues?  What do the numbers say?

 
I don’t understand the soccer leagues. The “10 best teams in the world”... do they play in their own league only against each other or are they the best 10 teams in a league that plays these other teams that has Americans on them? 
The top 5 recognized leagues are in Europe (England, Spain, Italy, France and Germany).  The top teams in those leagues are typically regarded as the best teams in the world.

These teams meet in a competition called the UEFA Champions League which brings together all of the top teams in Europe.  We have American's who have played in the Champions League.

I am unsure if this answers your question.

 
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Steph couldn't make it in the NBA (basketball's "first" division), so he went to China.  The reverse for Yao.

Your own words.. in China's Pro League they are going both directions.  Only severely lopsided in which direction we are talking about.

So are more people moving up from MLS or down from other leagues?  What do the numbers say?
People are moving in all directions.  I don't have the numbers because I don't understand the question.

What direction do you consider a top young player from Argentina coming to MLS?  Is that a step up or a step down?

 
Are people trying to get into the MLS from other pro leagues or are they trying to get out of MLS to get to other leagues?
Both coming and going, just like every other top 10 league in the world.

MLS is probably somewhere around 8th in league strength based on quality of play IMHO.  MLS can probably move up to as high as #4 or #5 in our lifetime.

 
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People are moving in all directions.  I don't have the numbers because I don't understand the question.

What direction do you consider a top young player from Argentina coming to MLS?  Is that a step up or a step down?
That depends.. is top young talent in the world seeking out the MLS?

 
That depends.. is top young talent in the world seeking out the MLS?
In general players will go where the money is better and teams will sell to the leagues that pay them the most money. 

MLS is starting to pay more money so they are also starting to get better young players.  MLS also spends some decent money on bigger name players who could still play in the top leagues in Europe (but not on the top teams),

 
That depends.. is top young talent in the world seeking out the MLS?
The top young talents want to play in the top European leagues for now.  That doesn't really mean much other than those leagues pay the most.  Kind of like the NBA gets most of the world's top talent because of salary/prestige.

 
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The top young talents want to play in the top European leagues for now.  That doesn't really mean much other than those leagues pay the most.  Kind of lie the NBA gets most of the world's top talent because of salary/prestige.
money is everything.  MLS gets some decent players because they target good money at those players.  Similar to how China has signed some big names.

If and when MLS wants to spend more, they will get more good players.  There is not much science to this.  It is more just pure economics.  The quality growth in MLS has experienced the last 5 years has pretty much moved in lock step with more money being spent.

But in terms of this discussion, signing better foreign players to put in the league is not the biggest piece of the equation.  Spending money on developing our own domestic talent is as important or more important to this thread's topic IMO.

 
MLS is probably somewhere around 8th in league strength based on quality of play IMHO.  MLS can probably move up to as high as #4 or #5 in our lifetime.
I won't see it my lifetime but I am older than most.  I would be happy just to see continued growth, especially in developing native US talent.

 
money is everything.  MLS gets some decent players because they target good money at those players.  Similar to how China has signed some big names.

If and when MLS wants to spend more, they will get more good players.  There is not much science to this.  It is more just pure economics.  The quality growth in MLS has experienced the last 5 years has pretty much moved in lock step with more money being spent.

But in terms of this discussion, signing better foreign players to put in the league is not the biggest piece of the equation.  Spending money on developing our own domestic talent is as important or more important to this thread's topic IMO.
I would say as revenues continue to grow in MLS(fastest by percentage of any of the world's top leagues) it will help us develop and retain talent locally.   So I do think it is relevant in terms of becoming a top footballing nation, perhaps indirectly but relevant nonetheless.

 

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