What Will It Take For The US To Be Competitive In World Cup? (1 Viewer)

[SwampDawg]

good post!

On the bold, we had some discussion on this earlier and it looks to have affected participation rates.  I completely agree that the rule change benefits the top 1%(the group that has pro aspirations) but hurts or provides no benefit to the other 99%.

I think the coaching is likely to improve.  We have so many foreign players who come to MLS and settle here.  Between them and the domestic MLS players, you have to figure a lot will go into coaching when they retire.  As MLS continues to expand across the country, the size of the league and numbers of players coming through it will continue to grow.

But like everything else we talk about, this will be a slow process.

I agree the coaching will get better, not only the MLS players but all the kids now playing and learning at the academies and better clubs will be parents at some point and when they coach their kids teams they will be able to provide good technical skills.

There are other good resources out there now but you need to look unlike the other sports where every University advertises their football and basketball camps and baseball training is all over the place soccer you need search more. My son just completed completed 4 one on one training sessions over the last month with the local PDL clubs coaching staff. For $30 a session it was a steal compared to other sports training and he loved their Irish accents.

 

[BassNBrew]

Honestly, all we really need are to have people who know what they are doing to have kids. That's it--the results will follow over time.

This is a very good point.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Right now Sporting KC gets the same attendance as a Royals game.  And the crowd is way more fun at the soccer game..

I saw an amazing stat recently.

Between Portland and KC, they have sold out over 270 straight games.  Imagine travelling back in time 12 years ago and telling someone that could happen in this sport?

 

[Sinn Fein]

I'm not trolling...I thought I presented a very good point in that one of the reasons you are not getting the culture you so want to have is because America just doesn't really care about soccer like other countries do....sure we may be spending more money on it, and I admit it has become a little more popular since the women's team made their run, but I don't think it will be sustainable here because its will always be competing with the other major sports...and IMO it just won't become the #1 sport here like it is in other countries which is kind of what you need to get that infrastructure you are talking about.....and as I mentioned, sports like lacrosse will even start dipping into your talent pool...

Can you define "the culture you so want to have"?  

What is the culture to which you refer, and who wants that culture?

I, for one, am perfectly happy with Soccer's niche in the American sports landscape.  I don't feel the need for it to be the top sport in the land.  I don't feel the need for the US team to win the world cup, to justify my enjoyment of the sport.

I suspect most of the other soccer nerd here have a similar outlook.  What some have been pointing out, is that growth in the sport is real, and continuing to progress.  Those are simply objective facts - based on almost any metric you choose.  I have no idea what you mean by "sustainable" - but soccer has reached the tipping point in the US.  Whether or not it ever surpasses baseball/football/basketball is not really relevant to the conversation.  Networks are spending over $1B on broadcast rights across multiple leagues and languages.  Businessmen are paying over $100M for an MLS franchise - thats not "hobby" money because the Women won the world cup in 1999 - thats serious investment.

Soccer may never have universal appeal in the United States - much in the same way that Trump can get elected - people have different tastes, and some are never going to change.  But, that's fine.  There is plenty of room for everyone at this table.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

That was popularity.

can you give me the cliff notes....don't want a site called "socceramerica: getting a click from me.....how exactly did they define/determine popularity...

 

[Steve Tasker]

For Ref

https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/76336/gallup-poll-soccer-closes-in-on-big-three-as-most.html

In ten years, soccer becomes number 2.  It's already #2 in the 18-34 demo and 2 pts behind basketball in the 35 to 54 demo for #2 ranking.  Soccer gets crushed in the 55+ group.  It's just a matter of time when soccer will take over.  Certainly will happen before the Chefs win a Super Bowl.  Still time for you to get on the bandwagon.

I do think there is some merit to the long-term culture shift discussion.  We are just now reaching a point where people who grew up on soccer are starting to have kids and foster a long-term soccer culture in the US.  I know that's not the point of this thread, which is ultimately youth development, but I don't think we can discount the role that a cultural shift will play in this.  For years, soccer's popularity growth was being driven by immigrants, but now it seems to be stabilizing among a younger generation.  MLS is nearing its 25th birthday and appears to be experiencing substantial growth; there are now kids in MLS cities who grew up following MLS teams, going to MLS games, etc., watching the US play meaningful international matches.  Their friends are soccer fans.  

Soccer used to have a reputation for being a kids sport, something that you send your kid to in order to get them some life experience, learn how to play on a team, and nothing more.  Now it's slowly becoming more than that.

I don't see it passing football or basketball in terms of popularity, but I could certainly see it becoming the #3 "most popular" (depending on how you define that) sport in America in my lifetime.  Just look at those soccer vs. baseball figures among people under the age of 55.

 

[NewlyRetired]

can you give me the cliff notes....don't want a site called "socceramerica: getting a click from me.....how exactly did they define/determine popularity...

it was a gallup poll.  You already were shown this article in the other thread and you did not understand it so I don't know why it would be any different now. 

 

[BassNBrew]

can you give me the cliff notes....don't want a site called "socceramerica: getting a click from me.....how exactly did they define/determine popularity...

Why are you engaging in a conversation when you refuse to read what people are presenting you.

It was a gallup poll.  Basically for the demos 54 and under soccer is already tied for #2 in popularity in the US.  It the 55+ older group it's 11x smaller.  

Summing it up, you are squarely in the "Get Off My Lawn" demo.

 

[NewlyRetired]

For years, soccer's popularity growth was being driven by immigrants, but now it seems to be stabilizing among a younger generation.  MLS is nearing its 25th birthday and appears to be experiencing substantial growth; there are now kids in MLS cities who grew up following MLS teams, going to MLS games, etc., watching the US play meaningful international matches.  Their friends are soccer fans. 

I don't see it passing football or basketball in terms of popularity, but I could certainly see it becoming the #3 "most popular" (depending on how you define that) sport in America in my lifetime.  Just look at those soccer vs. baseball figures among people under the age of 55.

The sport is already bigger today than I thought I would ever be in the US.

The demographics clearly point to the growth not slowing, the two biggest being the youth factor and the latino factor both of which soccer is very strong in compared to the other sports.

It will never catch football or basketball in my lifetime.   I am very unsure if it ever catches baseball.  Baseball has the worst demographics of all the sports but until I start to see them actually having any issues, I will hold any predictions.  Right now they are still doing very well in all the business metrics (see what is happening to NSACAR when metrics start to turn bad).

====================

But the great part is that it does not matter where it ends to be honest even if it makes no advancement from today (which seems inevitable given the business metrics we have to look at). 

We have soccer to watch almost every day of the year on numerous channels from a ton of different leagues and we will eventually have MLS teams in almost every major city and USL teams in smaller cities.

I don't know how we really could have asked for more even just ten years ago.  

 

[BassNBrew]

The sport is already bigger today than I thought I would ever be in the US.

The demographics clearly point to the growth not slowing, the two biggest being the youth factor and the latino factor both of which soccer is very strong in compared to the other sports.

It will never catch football or basketball in my lifetime.   I am very unsure if it ever catches baseball.  Baseball has the worst demographics of all the sports but until I start to see them actually having any issues, I will hold any predictions.  Right now they are still doing very well in all the business metrics (see what is happening to NSACAR when metrics start to turn bad).

====================

But the great part is that it does not matter where it ends to be honest even if it makes no advancement from today (which seems inevitable given the business metrics we have to look at). 

We have soccer to watch almost every day of the year on numerous channels from a ton of different leagues and we will eventually have MLS teams in almost every major city and USL teams in smaller cities.

I don't know how we really could have asked for me even just ten years ago.  

Curious why you way this.  Data says it's already more popular than baseball in participation and popularity and knocking on the door of basketball.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Curious why you way this.  Data says it's already more popular than baseball in participation and popularity and knocking on the door of basketball.

I focus on the business metrics. 

MLB is a behemoth.  There is no other way to say it.  The TV ratings are not great but they are still good enough to generate significant revenue.  And their business at the gate is second to none due to their high number of games and solid attendance average across the league.

MLB's revenue last year was $10 billion.  That is higher than even the EPL and only trails the NFL in terms of the highest revenue generating leagues in the world.

I don't like to make predictions until I see any sort of slowing pattern in these metrics.  It does not need to be the blood bath that NASCAR is experiencing but it is hard for me to predict any sort of downfall for MLB at this point.

MLB's demographics have sucked for quite a few years and fans still go to the games in large numbers.

If and when I see a business metric at the MLB level be effected by the leading indicators, then I will reevaluate my position.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Can you define "the culture you so want to have"?  

What is the culture to which you refer, and who wants that culture?

I, for one, am perfectly happy with Soccer's niche in the American sports landscape.  I don't feel the need for it to be the top sport in the land.  I don't feel the need for the US team to win the world cup, to justify my enjoyment of the sport.

I suspect most of the other soccer nerd here have a similar outlook.  What some have been pointing out, is that growth in the sport is real, and continuing to progress.  Those are simply objective facts - based on almost any metric you choose.  I have no idea what you mean by "sustainable" - but soccer has reached the tipping point in the US.  Whether or not it ever surpasses baseball/football/basketball is not really relevant to the conversation.  Networks are spending over $1B on broadcast rights across multiple leagues and languages.  Businessmen are paying over $100M for an MLS franchise - thats not "hobby" money because the Women won the world cup in 1999 - thats serious investment.

Soccer may never have universal appeal in the United States - much in the same way that Trump can get elected - people have different tastes, and some are never going to change.  But, that's fine.  There is plenty of room for everyone at this table.

excellent post...

to answer your question about culture....I was referring to the culture/development/infrastructure that someone else above mentioned....needing it early and often/attracting better athletes, etc...

soccer is getting bigger...I have admitted that, and like you said, if everybody just kind of accepts it for what it is here in our country, it will probably be able to maintain a role/niche...I just don't think the progress (continuing to get even bigger) will be sustainable to the point where it passes the big 4 and even college football/hoops in terms of popularity....I agree that almost everybody is fine with soccer being right where it is at currently and I'm not sure the USA will ever have the passion other countries do...the passion necessary for that culture/development....we just don't care that much and don't care if we miss the WC...it would be cool if it became even more popular and we started caring more and got better globally...but the sport itself in many ways doesn't help itself....its just when soccer guy tries to force feed it to us how awesome it is, it gets a little crazy...I'm cool with it growing, etc., but lets just not act like it really sniffs the big 4 (at least big 3) and or college football/hoops....and because of that we may struggle to "be competitive" at the men's world cup level...

 

[roadkill1292]

The only reason I care even a little bit about its popularity here is so we continue to get lots of games on tv and have a few guys to talk about it with. The soccer guys here are the coolest members on the boards, even Gator.

 

[roadkill1292]

excellent post...

to answer your question about culture....I was referring to the culture/development/infrastructure that someone else above mentioned....needing it early and often/attracting better athletes, etc...

soccer is getting bigger...I have admitted that, and like you said, if everybody just kind of accepts it for what it is here in our country, it will probably be able to maintain a role/niche...I just don't think the progress (continuing to get even bigger) will be sustainable to the point where it passes the big 4 and even college football/hoops in terms of popularity....I agree that almost everybody is fine with soccer being right where it is at currently and I'm not sure the USA will ever have the passion other countries do...the passion necessary for that culture/development....we just don't care that much and don't care if we miss the WC...it would be cool if it became even more popular and we started caring more and got better globally...but the sport itself in many ways doesn't help itself....its just when soccer guy tries to force feed it to us how awesome it is, it gets a little crazy...I'm cool with it growing, etc., but lets just not act like it really sniffs the big 4 (at least big 3) and or college football/hoops....and because of that we may struggle to "be competitive" at the men's world cup level...

Blame....Joe Bryant.....he's the one.....shoving soccer......down your throat.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I focus on the business metrics. 

MLB is a behemoth.  There is no other way to say it.  The TV ratings are not great but they are still good enough to generate significant revenue.  And their business at the gate is second to none due to their high number of games and solid attendance average across the league.

MLB's revenue last year was $10 billion.  That is higher than even the EPL and only trails the NFL in terms of the highest revenue generating leagues in the world.

I don't like to make predictions until I see any sort of slowing pattern in these metrics.  It does not need to be the blood bath that NASCAR is experiencing but it is hard for me to predict any sort of downfall for MLB at this point.

MLB's demographics have sucked for quite a few years and fans still go to the games in large numbers.

If and when I see a business metric at the MLB level be effected by the leading indicators, then I will reevaluate my position.

...seems like a reasonable approach....if Bass's link was to that same Gallup poll of 1,000 people....I would look to follow the business metric approach....it might be a better reflection of the pulse of the nation....

 

[NewlyRetired]

...seems like a reasonable approach....if Bass's link was to that same Gallup poll of 1,000 people....I would look to follow the business metric approach....it might be a better reflection of the pulse of the nation....

As was explained to you in the other thread, the Gallup poll is a remarkable leading indicator.

It has been run for decades and was used to predict the downfall of horse racing and boxing and was the first to show that football was likely to not only catch baseball but pass it.

There is a reason it is highly respected in the industry even if some people don't understand how basic polling works.

 

[msommer]

 For a European kid, leaving a university education on the table isn't a major, life-changing financial decision like it is here.

That's because is is not to forego but to postpone

 

[Black Box]

Do we really need a national soccer culture in order to compete in a WC? Why not just a handful of regional areas where people care about soccer, grow up playing it, and have access to proper training? It seems, to me, that Iceland, Holland, Uruguay, etc. have shown that having a large population to draw from is not necessary to compete on the national stage.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Why are you engaging in a conversation when you refuse to read what people are presenting you.

It was a gallup poll.  Basically for the demos 54 and under soccer is already tied for #2 in popularity in the US.  It the 55+ older group it's 11x smaller.  

Summing it up, you are squarely in the "Get Off My Lawn" demo.

sorry...I just enjoy the discussion and the back and forth with soccer guy....as you can see very few anti soccer guys even take the time to click on these threads....let alone post...like many, they really don't care to even take the time to participate....if you don't have a few anti soccer guys in here to help try to "keep it real" so to speak and at least acknowledge some of the basic things about why soccer struggles here (boring, etc)...soccer guy might lose focus and not recognize the spot their sport maintains in the pecking order here in America...

 

[Sebowski]

and one of the big things is that probably 95% of Americans could actually care less about us getting our butts kicked in soccer on a global scale....we are kind of OK with other countries having that one as the sport they beat us at....we don't care...

Oh. Cool. Not so bad then I guess. Depending. Let me know when they couldn't care less and we'll start to worry. TIA in advance. 

 

[roadkill1292]

  "We don't want you soccer nerds getting uppity."

 

[NewlyRetired]

sorry...I just enjoy the discussion and the back and forth with soccer guy....as you can see very few anti soccer guys even take the time to click on these threads....let alone post..

actually this board represents much of what is happening in America.  The soccer troll guys are still around but they are ever smaller in numbers compared to the people knowledgeable about the sport.  The gap widens every year.  

You can see in the soccer threads here are full of people who once never cared for the sport before they actually started to pay attention to it.

Once the trolls see that almost everything they postulate from decades old beliefs is beaten back with hard data most realize that it is kind of a meaningless troll and they fade away.

I know you don't like to read but The Ringer just published an article on this topic entitled "The Death of the American Soccer Troll".

 

[roadkill1292]

actually this board represents much of what is happening in America.  The soccer troll guys are still around but they are ever smaller in numbers compared to the people knowledgeable about the sport.  The gap widens every year.  

You can see in the soccer threads here are full of people who once never cared for the sport before they actually started to pay attention to it.

Once the trolls see that almost everything they postulate from decades old beliefs is beaten back with hard data most realize that it is kind of a meaningless troll and they fade away.

I know you don't like to read but The Ringer just published an article on this topic entitled "The Death of the American Soccer Troll".

I read that piece but I think the trolls haven't shown up this cycle because we're not in it and interest is muted. When we have big watch crowds in '22 or a full fledged summer festival in '26, the Ann Coulters and Dan Shaughnessys will be back to tell us what commies we really are.

 

[NewlyRetired]

 the Ann Coulters and Dan Shaughnessys will be back to tell us what commies we really are.

Kind of feel bad for the trolls when these are their torch bearers  

Shaughnessy will hopefully be long retired by 2022 as he will be 69 years old.

 

[TripItUp]

actually this board represents much of what is happening in America.  The soccer troll guys are still around but they are ever smaller in numbers compared to the people knowledgeable about the sport.  The gap widens every year.  

You can see in the soccer threads here are full of people who once never cared for the sport before they actually started to pay attention to it.

Once the trolls see that almost everything they postulate from decades old beliefs is beaten back with hard data most realize that it is kind of a meaningless troll and they fade away.

I know you don't like to read but The Ringer just published an article on this topic entitled "The Death of the American Soccer Troll".

Also worth noting, that these trolls are very likely over the age of 40 and live in non-progressive areas...in other words, their opinions carry very little weight when influencing pretty much anything.  In 20 years they'll be grandpas wondering how soccer ever came to dominate the American sports landscape.

 

[pantherclub]

I keep hearing that coaching will get better, but I don't see it.  Maybe at the lowest levels, but the best coaches are in the pay to play system (outside of roughly 100x2 age groups) academy coaches.  It's certainly not a good career path unless you go the college coaching route and can shake down kids for money to attend there summer ID camps. Good college coaches do nothing to improve our chances of winning a World Cup.

I never played soccer at all in my life.  When my kids were in the league I coached 2 u-6 teams, 2 u-8 teams and was and was an assistant for 2 u-10 teams.  My kids quit after that.  The only reason I coached was because there was literally nobody else that would do it.  I didnt have a clue what to do but we did okay as a team because the other squads were coached by joe sixpacks like myself.

Its going to take generations to make up any ground and this is simply of of many reasons.

 

[pantherclub]

Honestly, all we really need are to have people who know what they are doing to have kids. That's it--the results will follow over time.

so basically generations

 

[Stinkin Ref]

actually this board represents much of what is happening in America.  The soccer troll guys are still around but they are ever smaller in numbers compared to the people knowledgeable about the sport.  The gap widens every year.  

You can see in the soccer threads here are full of people who once never cared for the sport before they actually started to pay attention to it.

Once the trolls see that almost everything they postulate from decades old beliefs is beaten back with hard data most realize that it is kind of a meaningless troll and they fade away.

I know you don't like to read but The Ringer just published an article on this topic entitled "The Death of the American Soccer Troll".

I get it....I really do....I have said it before....but for discussion only....rank them based on where you really think the sport stands in terms of popularity here...not some Gallup/data poll...just personal rankings....and we will check back in 5 years, then 10, then 15, then 20....not sure how much time you need....not doing this to slam on soccer, just to point out how the lack of it being really big here may contribute to the OP's question...even some of the soccer guys in here admit it probably won't ever pass the big 4 (6 if you count NCAA)...and that really is OK...embrace your spot

NFL
NCAA Football
NBA
NCAA Men's Basketball
MLB
NHL
American Soccer Leagues (not overseas)

heck, I almost want to add PGA Golf...

anyway...its been fun...I really do hope we get better at soccer...I'm American as the next guy, and I hate to see the USA lose in anything (yeah even soccer)....but I've just kind of accepted the fact that it's not our gig and I understand why many/most people don't like it more here....we like other sports better....it is what it is...cheers...

 

[NewlyRetired]

so basically generations

if there is one common running theme in this thread (and the many others like it) is that there is no magic pill to fix this.

It is going to take a lot of time.  That is just the nature of the beast.

We are not trying to do this in a vacuum either.  There are 75+ viable playing nations that are also looking to improve so even if we do improve, it does not mean we are automatically gaining ground.

Hell even Germany did a full retro fit in the early 2000's and that is one of the top playing nations who you would think would have cracked the code.

 

[NewlyRetired]

NFL
NCAA Football
NBA
NCAA Men's Basketball
MLB
NHL
American Soccer Leagues (not overseas)

This is probably the first thing you have posted that I agree with (from a league perspective at least, which is different from a sport perspective)

Maybe you are focusing more on league than sport in your comments.  In the sport of soccer in the US, our fan base is dramatically splintered across many different leagues (there are large number of people who watch Mexican soccer or English soccer or international soccer or MLS etc etc) where as 99.99% of every hockey fan watches the NHL for example.

 

[pantherclub]

if there is one common running theme in this thread (and the many others like it) is that there is no magic pill to fix this.

It is going to take a lot of time.  That is just the nature of the beast.

We are not trying to do this in a vacuum either.  There are 75+ viable playing nations that are also looking to improve so even if we do improve, it does not mean we are automatically gaining ground.

Hell even Germany did a full retro fit in the early 2000's and that is one of the top playing nations who you would think would have cracked the code.

I just dont think even time will fix this.  There are too many factors going against us to get to where the US is a national power on the world soccer stage.   Somewhere years ago this country went left when we needed to go right in regards to gaining ground on the world.   There are many reasons why but I just think we are way too far behind to make up any significant ground.  Like you say, other countries are trying to get better as well.

We dont stink at soccer but we are not good, we have other sports to focus on and we as a country should be content with that.

 

[NewlyRetired]

  There are too many factors going against us to get to where the US is a national power on the world soccer stage. 

At the beginning of the thread it was determined that the thesis was whether it was realistic to expect the US to be a legit top 15 team.

IMO, I think that is realistic.

I don't think it is realistic to expect to be a top 5 type team (over an extended period of course, anyone can have a good run in a short form tournament of course where they out punch their weight).

 

[pantherclub]

At the beginning of the thread it was determined that the thesis was whether it was realistic to expect the US to be a legit top 15 team.

IMO, I think that is realistic.

I don't think it is realistic to expect to ever to be a top 5 type team (over an extended period of course, anyone can have a good run in a short form tournament of course).

wouldnt a top 15 team in the world be considered a world power?

 

[NewlyRetired]

wouldnt a top 15 team in the world be considered a world power?

not IMO.

The US has been a top 15 team numerous times in the past.  But no one alive would have ever considered them a world power.  That is no different than a Sweden or Switzerland or Ivory Coast type countries that reach that level.  Good teams but far from a power.

 

[pantherclub]

not IMO.

The US has been a top 15 team numerous times in the past.  But no one alive would have ever considered them a world power.  That is no different than a Sweden or Switzerland or Ivory Coast type countries that reach that level.  Good teams but far from a power.

I meant to say consistent.  My bad.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I meant to say consistent.  My bad.

I am unsure exactly what you mean but in general to stay as a legit top 15 team year after year would show wonderful consistency.

It is a hard goal to reach but it could be achievable.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

This is probably the first thing you have posted that I agree with (from a league perspective at least, which is different from a sport perspective)

Maybe you are focusing more on league than sport in your comments.  In the sport of soccer in the US, our fan base is dramatically splintered across many different leagues (there are large number of people who watch Mexican soccer or English soccer or international soccer or MLS etc etc) where as 99.99% of every hockey fan watches the NHL for example.

I've appreciated the dialogue from your guys's end...I have better understanding of the struggle/fight/cause from the posts here....I don't think it's really about who is right and who is wrong or trying to get the "other side" to agree....soccer guy and anti soccer guy will probably never be on the same page in the USA...I do think however, soccer guy could maybe listen a little more and use some of the perspective of anti soccer guy to help try and improve things....not be so defensive...like if there are ways to make it less boring?, etc....however that would mean possibly changing rules, etc. on the global format which will never happen....but soccer could learn from some other sports that are showing a ton of success in this country and are more popular....those sports have been open to making rule changes, etc to make their sport more appealing...and if you make it more appealing it becomes more popular, then positive changes in the development/culture/infrastructure will follow along.....

 

[NewlyRetired]

but soccer could learn from some other sports that are showing a ton of success in this country and are more popular....those sports have been open to making rule changes, etc to make their sport more appealing...and if you make it more appealing it becomes more popular, then positive changes in the development/culture/infrastructure will follow along.....

Of course the real question is how to convince the by far the most popular sport in the world to change its rules?  Why would rules be changed (in any significant way) to appeal to one country and maybe not appeal to a 150 others?

Note that I say this as some one who has many times publicly said I would not mind some rule changes to open up the offense but I very much acknowledge that my opinion is far from important on the world stage.

The NFL can change any rules they want as they play in a 32 team vacuum and effect no one but themselves.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Of course the real question is how to convince the by far the most popular sport in the world to change its rules?  Why would rules be changed (in any significant way) to appeal to one country and maybe not appeal to a 150 others?

Note that I say this as some one who has many times publicly said I would not mind some rule changes to open up the offense but I very much acknowledge that my opinion is far from important on the world stage.

The NFL can change any rules they want as they play in a 32 team vacuum and effect no one but themselves.

yeah thats why I said it will never happen....the rest of the world won't allow it and why it will probably always be a struggle here in the USA....

 

[NewlyRetired]

 why it will probably always be a struggle here in the USA....

I am confused by this terminology. 

We have millions of people watching soccer on TV every week across numerous leagues.  MLS averages over 20k fans per game league wide.  We have brand new stadiums being built all over the country.  We have billionaires who are actively trying to buy and launch teams here.  Sponsors are spending enormous amounts of money.  We have networks paying literally billions of dollars to broadcast the sport in the country.

Why is any of this considered a struggle?

Is this something that in your mind that if you are not as big as the NFL, you are struggling?  If that is the level then yes, the sport is struggling but I think a wider view is probably better imo, especially when one considers the size of the sport today compared to years ago in this country. 

The growth points to almost anything but struggling IMO but I will acknowledge that I am unsure what metrics you are using.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I think what people are saying here, though, is that soccer is continuing to grow across the US regardless.  Financial investment is flowing into all levels of the sport.  Interest in the professional game is at an all-time high and continues to grow.  There will always be people who find the game to be subjectively boring.  That's okay, not everyone needs to love the sport.  Sports are not a zero-sum game - there's room for everyone.

Are there potential rule changes to consider?  Absolutely.  But factually, the sport continues to grow in the US without these changes specifically directed at the US market.  It's been shown across a number of metrics.  

The question is how do we collectively convert that growth into better, more consistent play at the top level?  If the metric we're using to determine that is top 15, frankly, the US isn't terribly far off.  It's been posted in here a few times, but in the past 5 World Cups, the US made it to the round of 16 twice and the round of 8 once.  No question that missing the 2018 World Cup is an absolute embarrassment, but teams do miss the World Cup.  Italy won the Cup in 2006, failed to get out of the group stage in 2010/2014 and failed to qualify in 2018.  The Netherlands finished 2nd and 3rd in 2010/2014 and failed to qualify in 2018.  Granted, Euro qualification is much more of a minefield than CONCACAF qualification.

The US is currently ranked 25th in the FIFA rankings and has ranked, on average #20 in the world over the past 25 years.  That's a pretty remarkable figure considering the US didn't qualify for a World Cup between 1950 and 1990.  The question is how do we get to that next level.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Are there potential rule changes to consider?  Absolutely.  But factually, the sport continues to grow in the US without these changes specifically directed at the US market.  It's been shown across a number of metrics.  

Not to derail the thread which has had some decent conversation but you could almost argue that following the rules has led to the sport being more popular.  Remember when MLS launched and they implemented some strange rules that the rest of the world did not use and after the initial launch the league struggled until it almost folded in the early 2000's? 

Eventually those rule changes were all scrapped and the league followed the regular rules.  Whether that had a small part in the growth that followed the next 15 years is unknown and not measurable but we can certainly say it likely did not hurt them.

 

[pantherclub]

Of course the real question is how to convince the by far the most popular sport in the world to change its rules?  Why would rules be changed (in any significant way) to appeal to one country and maybe not appeal to a 150 others?

Note that I say this as some one who has many times publicly said I would not mind some rule changes to open up the offense but I very much acknowledge that my opinion is far from important on the world stage.

The NFL can change any rules they want as they play in a 32 team vacuum and effect no one but themselves.

eliminate off sides

 

[Spartans Rule]

I meant to say consistent.  My bad.

The best example of a country that is consistently top 15 but never top 5 is probably Mexico. I wouldn't consider them a world power, and the U.S. is usually pretty close to their equal (this year's World Cup qualifying aside).

 

[NewlyRetired]

eliminate off sides

We can certainly augment it.

I don't want to bore you with history but the sport started with no offside rule and it became a useless endeavor and they had to implement the offside rule to make the game more realistic and reasonable to play.

The offside rule has been changed a few times over the years but I think it could still be augmented a little more to favor the offenses but FIFA moves at a tectonic like pace unless it involves being bribed and I am not expecting much sadly.

 

[msommer]

Of course the real question is how to convince the by far the most popular sport in the world to change its rules?  Why would rules be changed (in any significant way) to appeal to one country and maybe not appeal to a 150 others?

Note that I say this as some one who has many times publicly said I would not mind some rule changes to open up the offense but I very much acknowledge that my opinion is far from important on the world stage.

The NFL can change any rules they want as they play in a 32 team vacuum and effect no one but themselves.

eliminate off sides

That seems like an answer to a question that wasn't asked.

The bolded is the question.

HTH

 

[Spartans Rule]

Of course the real question is how to convince the by far the most popular sport in the world to change its rules?  Why would rules be changed (in any significant way) to appeal to one country and maybe not appeal to a 150 others?

I think a big factor in the sport's global popularity is the consistency in the rules. Having the sport played by the same laws all across the globe is what really enables international competition to be such a big deal.

I remember reading that MLS wanted to alter some rules when it started and FIFA said no. That probably would've been bad for the sport's growth here.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I am confused by this terminology. 

We have millions of people watching soccer on TV every week across numerous leagues.  MLS averages over 20k fans per game league wide.  We have brand new stadiums being built all over the country.  We have billionaires who are actively trying to buy and launch teams here.  Sponsors are spending enormous amounts of money.  We have networks paying literally billions of dollars to broadcast the sport in the country.

Why is any of this considered a struggle?

Is this something that in your mind that if you are not as big as the NFL, you are struggling?  If that is the level then yes, the sport is struggling but I think a wider view is probably better imo, especially when one considers the size of the sport today compared to years ago in this country. 

The growth points to almost anything but struggling IMO but I will acknowledge that I am unsure what metrics you are using.

sorry...struggle in terms of ultimately passing any of those other 6 sports in terms of popularity here in the USA....which I think will contribute to the continued struggle with culture/development/infrastructure....I'll give it to you that it's getting bigger, but I think at some point it is still going to max out and when it does max out it will still fall short in terms of popularity with the other 6 sports mentioned....

kids don't seem to be out there wanting to be the next __________ (insert best USA soccer player here, not sure who that is)...they want to be the next Steph Curry....why?...well i will say in part because of the NBA and ultimately college implementing things like the shot clock and the 3 point line....and other major sports changing rules to make the game more appealing/popular....

let's be honest...the number one thing yo will hear from non soccer guy is that the sport is boring....most don't get excited by the little things in the game that maybe soccer guy finds exciting....like you mentioned, things that could be done to promote things to open up the offense and make them be more aggressive and take more chances....instead of seeming like a team would rather not "make a mistake" more than they want to take a chance to score....anything you can do to increase the exciting parts of the game would be great...but it's like the end of the world or slamming somebody's religion if you suggest changing anything to the soccer world...I used the term "wow" plays in the other thread....soccer guy didn't like it....anything you can do to get more of those....a couple I can think of...get rid of offsides, if a team wants to implement some form of cherry picking, go for it...but when an attack does start and gets pulled back cause one of the guys was too far downfield....it's frustrating....and make the field smaller to promote more action instead of just eventually launching the ball down the other way any time there is some "danger"....I don't know, maybe there are holes in both of those suggestions because I am not a soccer purist...

 

[NewlyRetired]

I remember reading that MLS wanted to alter some rules when it started and FIFA said no. That probably would've been bad for the sport's growth here.

I was around at that time and the league did alter some rules (see my earlier response to Tasker).  FIFA did not care too much since they did not go over board.

MLS also told FIFA at their launch in the 90's to use the league as a testing board for changes but FIFA never took them up on that.

Eventually when Garber took over as commissioner, one of the very first things he did was to return the league to normal rules.  The fact that this realization had to come from an NFL guy was kind of a head scratcher but thankfully it happened

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I hear this talk of "world ranking"....top 15....top 25....just curious what does that really mean and how is it measured exactly...?..I mean besides getting together every 4 years for "THE Tourney"...what does that really mean the other 3 years....?...and should I care?....don't most of these guys play on some other team/league most of the time and then just get together that 4th year?....kinda confusing to non soccer guy.....I don't think average sports guy would have a clue what that means or if we should care....maybe that the problem....maybe they should think about doing the WC every year or every two years?....its when interest is at its peak, why not do it more often...?...I think 4 years is a little much even if the women do it in between there somewhere...