When was the last time a team with no QB traded down with one on the board in the top 5? (1 Viewer)

[ghostguy123]

Oh, and as for the OP, I personally do not view Wentz as some franchise QB.  Will be 24 soon, barely any college experience, played on a great AA program or whatever it was that was super successful without him, and obviously that means he played in pretty amazingly inferior competition.

He has a lot of the tools to be really good.  So have a lot of guys who showed more at higher competition while 3-4 years younger.

As a Browns fan I am thrilled with pick 8, a 3rd and 4th this year, a 2017 1st, and a 2018 2nd rather than drafting Carson Wentz.  Beyond thrilled.

And shoot, by the time we have a chance to be good that dude might be 30

 

[petekrum]

No I really shouldn't.

You can lead a horse to water,......?

 

[Bob Magaw]

You have to be sure that Wentz is a franchise QB in order to slam the Browns, you know that, right?  If you think the Browns messed up, it has to be because Wentz is the answer at QB.  Not just because they should have taken a QB just because they don't have one.  Especially considering the haul they got.  

I am not sure that Wentz is a franchise QB.  I like the Browns not making a move out of panic, and I like the draft picks they got.  If they don't get a QB, and mess up the picks, then yep, they messed up, Browns-style.

Was it a slam or an observation/question?

Hold off on all comments, or don't ask the question for three years?

 

[Bob Magaw]

I think Goff and Wentz will outperform both QBs taken 1-2 in the 2015 NFL draft over the course of their careers. Barring injury.

Mayock said something similar.

 

[massraider]

Was it a slam or an observation/question?

Hold off on all comments, or don't ask the question for three years?

No, don't hold off on the comments, just know what you are saying.

No one gets to say that the Browns messed up, and then waffle if asked if Wentz is the guy.  You cannot have it both ways.

 

[lod01]

Mayock said something similar.

Yes he did say that a week or so ago I believe.

 

[Bob Magaw]

No, don't hold off on the comments, just know what you are saying.

No one gets to say that the Browns messed up, and then waffle if asked if Wentz is the guy.  You cannot have it both ways.

I didn't interpret it as a slam. He made an observation, asked a question.

Just because previous teams haven't done it (or rarely), it could be a legit way to build the team.

It isn't like he prefaced the OP by calling CLE foolish.

* Where and how did he waffle or "have it both ways"?

We will know in 2-3 years if CLE was wise to move off the pick, or would have best picked Wentz (or Goff). It is a legit, fair question, are you having it both ways for being critical when you don't have the answer, either? I took it as raising the possibility that MAYBE it will prove a mistake over time. By implication, MAYBE it won't.

** Not bashing CLE, but obviously another part of the equation is what they do with the picks. If they turn out to be like Manziel, Weedon, Gilbert, Greg Little, etc., his point could be more well taken, IN RETROSPECT. Seems fair to recommend the point to the attention of the thread/board, so it can be tracked going forward?

 

[lod01]

No, don't hold off on the comments, just know what you are saying.

No one gets to say that the Browns messed up, and then waffle if asked if Wentz is the guy.  You cannot have it both ways.

You talking to me? I didn't waffle. I said both are better than the guys drafted last year so just pick one of the 2. They are both worth the #1 pick so that's not waffling on Wentz.

 

[massraider]

You talking to me? I didn't waffle. I said both are better than the guys drafted last year so just pick one of the 2. They are both worth the #1 pick so that's not waffling on Wentz.

No!  You stated your position clearly,  Mr. Bickle 

 

[lod01]

Ok. Keep your eyes on Mr. Winston this year. The cupcake schedule is gone. They had the 29th easiest schedule in 2015. That's why everyone in that division put up huge numbers (incl. Matt Ryan while handcuffed by Shanahan Jr.'s incompetence). All 4 teams were in the top 6 of easiest 2015 schedules. This year it is flipped and that division plays the toughest schedules. TB having the 5th toughest. 3 of them in the top 5. Carolina isn't because the rest of the division lost so much but they play a far tougher schedule as well.

 

[cstu]

It's the Browns.

The last time they had a top-5 pick they took Trent Richardson, with Ryan Tannehill, Russell Wilson, and Kirk Cousins on the board. They took Brandon Weeden later in the first round. 

Before that they took Joe Thomas, which was probably their best draft pick in the modern era. They took Brady Quinn later in the first round.

In 2005 they took Braylon Edwards instead of Aaron Rodgers. Trent Dilfer was their QB at the time.

In 2001 they took Gerard Warren with Drew Brees still on the board. To be fair, Tim Couch was entering his third year and hadn't totally flamed out yet (though he was 4-17 as a starter).

Given Cleveland's track record I like Wentz's chances of being good NFL QB.

 

[Soulfly3]

last year's defenses mean nothing this year. 

winston and evans will be 1yr better. 

i hate winston and still thin he's gonna go bananas

 

[cstu]

Oh, and as for the OP, I personally do not view Wentz as some franchise QB.  Will be 24 soon, barely any college experience, played on a great AA program or whatever it was that was super successful without him, and obviously that means he played in pretty amazingly inferior competition.

He has a lot of the tools to be really good.  So have a lot of guys who showed more at higher competition while 3-4 years younger.

As a Browns fan I am thrilled with pick 8, a 3rd and 4th this year, a 2017 1st, and a 2018 2nd rather than drafting Carson Wentz.  Beyond thrilled.

And shoot, by the time we have a chance to be good that dude might be 30

You really expect the Browns to make good use of those picks?

 

[cstu]

Starting a follow up topic:

When was last time team should have traded down instead of drafting the stiff they took at QB?

Rams - Bradford

 

[lod01]

Given Cleveland's track record I like Wentz's chances of being good NFL QB.

There's a great chance they look like idiots again. Of course, the Rams need to fire that dinosaur Jeff Fisher. He has zero offensive creativity.

 

[ghostguy123]

You really expect the Browns to make good use of those picks?

Did you really expect them to make good use of Wentz?

So if we blow all our picks, Wentz would BLOW.  So, why even bother??

I have no idea what I expect the Browns to end up doing with the picks, good or bad.  I do know these are all different people making the decisions, so who the hell knows.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Rams - Bradford

Would have been an even more egregious mistake if they could have psychically predicted the double torn ACLs.

It would also be ironic (and remiss to fail noting) if the Rams were faulted for rolling with a QB with an injury history (though I'm not aware of any connection between shoulder/ankle injuries and double torn ACLs?), opting to pass on a QB (RG3) that himself turned out to have an injury history, and is now off his original team - meanwhile the Rams added four starters (Brockers, Ogletree and Robinson as well as Jenkins, who could net a third round comp pink in 2017). Credit WAS for making the playoffs twice (latest had nothing to do with RG3), that is one way to evaluate the trade. Just on a personnel level, needless to say, I'd rather have 3 starters and a potential 2017 third round than nothing, as a continuing legacy for the trade).  

 

[Mister CIA]

The Browns have no established QB and were sitting at 2 with a QB on the board for sure and instead traded down to another QB-hungry team for picks.  Is this a first?  I'm thinking about it and in every trade down, the team trading down already had an established quarterback.  

Sometimes it is wise not to propose marriage to the first hot chick you meet in a bar.

 

[cstu]

Did you really expect them to make good use of Wentz?

So if we blow all our picks, Wentz would BLOW.  So, why even bother??

I have no idea what I expect the Browns to end up doing with the picks, good or bad.  I do know these are all different people making the decisions, so who the hell knows.

Everything starts with a good QB, look at the way the Raiders turned around with Carr.

Maybe their plan is to suck again this year and use the picks to move up to #1 next year if they have to.

 

[cstu]

1.

Cleveland Browns: Deshaun Watson, QB, Clemson

The Browns traded away the No. 2 overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft to the Eagles, prompting this update. You can check out the Eagles-Browns NFL Draft Trade Grades here if you haven't seen them already.

Cleveland did the smart thing. Not only did it acquire tons of selections to bolster the roster, but it also made sure that it would have a better chance of securing a better quarterback in a stronger draft class.

College football's version of Russell Wilson, Deshaun Watson had an amazing run despite being just a mere sophomore. The sky's the limit for him.
Read more at http://walterfootball.com/draft2017.php#6fiXJyt6wcGjipr7.99

 

[massraider]

Everything starts with a good QB, look at the way the Raiders turned around with Carr.

Maybe their plan is to suck again this year and use the picks to move up to #1 next year if they have to.

You believe Wentz is a franchise QB?

 

[ghostguy123]

Everything starts with a good QB

Exactly, and IMO they made a great move NOT selecting Wentz and acquiring more future value to be able to grab a QB they actually believe in when one comes available. 

Unless you are of the opinion you should just draft a QB for the sake of drafting a QB...............which I am not, ever.

 

[ghostguy123]

I mean, I hate to simplify it this way, but all of us posting in this thread have almost as much experience playing QB against NFL competition as Wentz. 

I can easily see why the Brown's FO does not want a soon to be 24 year old with limited reps, with those reps being against sub par player who have no NFL future.

 

[cstu]

Would have been an even more egregious mistake if they could have psychically predicted the double torn ACLs.

It would also be ironic (and remiss to fail noting) if the Rams were faulted for rolling with a QB with an injury history (though I'm not aware of any connection between shoulder/ankle injuries and double torn ACLs?), opting to pass on a QB (RG3) that himself turned out to have an injury history, and is now off his original team - meanwhile the Rams added four starters (Brockers, Ogletree and Robinson as well as Jenkins, who could net a third round comp pink in 2017). Credit WAS for making the playoffs twice (latest had nothing to do with RG3), that is one way to evaluate the trade. Just on a personnel level, needless to say, I'd rather have 3 starters and a potential 2017 third round than nothing, as a continuing legacy for the trade).  

I don't believe the ACL's were the reason Bradford's disappointment - I think he's just an average QB.

However, he did save the Rams from drafting Griffin so in the end it didn't work out so bad. However it makes me wonder what would have happened to the Rams if they had traded the #1 to the Redskins in 2010.  Could have drafted Trent Williams at #4 like the Redskins did and picked Andy Dalton in 2011.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I mean, I hate to simplify it this way, but all of us posting in this thread have almost as much experience playing QB against NFL competition as Wentz. 

I can easily see why the Brown's FO does not want a soon to be 24 year old with limited reps, with those reps being against sub par player who have no NFL future.

I have wondered if they would have drafted Goff at #2? They didn't trade out of the pick until LA traded in front of them.

Maybe the timing was for other reasons, and they wouldn't have taken him anyway.

For Goff or Wentz to pay off, they don't necessarily have to be top 3 or even 5 overall QBs in the league.

They will likely be measured by the standard of whether they get to the playoffs or not in a few years (and look like they are making progress while developing).

Of course, if TEN and CLE parlay all those extra picks into 3-4 All-Pros each, LA and PHI likely will suffer in the comparison. But that won't be an easy thing to do, either. The Rams are oft-faulted for not doing more with their picks. I like who they got, seeing as the first round principals are 26, 25 & 24, but if others agree to disagree on that point, than that is a precedent, by their standards, where having the most picks doesn't always turn into multiple All-Pros.   

 

[ghostguy123]

I have wondered if they would have drafted Goff at #2? They didn't trade out of the pick until LA traded in front of them.

Maybe the timing was for other reasons, and they wouldn't have taken him anyway.

For Goff or Wentz to pay off, they don't necessarily have to be top 3 or even 5 overall QBs in the league.

They will likely be measured by the standard of whether they get to the playoffs or not in a few years (and look like they are making progress while developing).

Of course, if TEN and CLE parlay all those extra picks into 3-4 All-Pros each, LA and PHI likely will suffer in the comparison. But that won't be an easy thing to do, either. The Rams are oft-faulted for not doing more with their picks. I like who they got, seeing as the first round principals are 26, 25 & 24, but if others agree to disagree on that point, than that is a precedent, by their standards, where having the most picks doesn't always turn into multiple All-Pros.   

And if they had stated at pick 2, we have no idea if they would have even drafted Wentz.  I don't think they would have.

I don't think you ever sign RG3 if you had planned to draft a QB at 2.  It wouldn't make sense.  RG3 wouldnt be the best guy to have around when bringing in a top 2 pick, so I don't think they had planned to take a QB at all to be honest.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I don't believe the ACL's were the reason Bradford's disappointment - I think he's just an average QB.

However, he did save the Rams from drafting Griffin so in the end it didn't work out so bad. However it makes me wonder what would have happened to the Rams if they had traded the #1 to the Redskins in 2010.  Could have drafted Trent Williams at #4 like the Redskins did and picked Andy Dalton in 2011.

A lot of people think that. Maybe he wouldn't have done well anyway without the torn ACLs? Maybe he would have done better? That is speculative. What isn't, is that it probably didn't help having double torn ACLs. And the trade looks worse, after, than before. And they had no way to know at the time he was going to have double torn ACLs. As you noted, if they had taken RG3, like many thought they should at the time (and perhaps still do? ), they might have nothing to show for the trade, which is what WAS has.

It would also be ironic if his enduring legacy to the Rams franchise is that he generated the #43 pick from PHI (whereas RG3 was a street free agent - and even if he was eligible to yield a comp pick, he didn't get paid close to what Osweiler did in the 2016 free agent cycle), which may have been used - to box out PHI, for Goff or Wentz.

About 31 other teams passed on Russell Wilson twice, some three times. 31 teams passed on Brady 5-6 or more times. Warner was a UFA, as was Romo. We could all play the hindsight woulda, coulda, shoulda game and have a team full of Marino's and Montana's, Emmitt Smith's, Jerry Rice's, Shannon Sharpes, Deacon Jones, **** Night Train Lane, etc., etc., etc.     

 

[Tanner9919]

Maybe they catch lightning in a bottle with Griffin.maybe not.but either way theyve had a long losing streak of drafting or signing qbs that havent panned out.they cannot afford another Tim Couch.maybe Elliott slips to them at 8. They get a legit offensive weapon and Gordon might be back. both of them  will take the heat off of Griffin.plus they add a few linemen and some defensive players..maybe they look at things like what the Ravens did..build the house then get a game manager QB like Dilfer to run the show.you cant put all of your eggs in the qb basket with no talent around him..

I know ..a lot of maybe..but Im rooting for the Brownies.I think everyone is..like the Cubbies in baseball..

 

[Soulfly3]

All this hate because the Browns pulled off one of the greatest ever heists for a QB who just 3-4 months ago, was no more than a 2nd-3rd round pick. 

Love how people buy into media hype and just ride along w the fact that Wentz is some superstar.

Goff is the ONLY qb worth taking at that pick, and he's gonna be gone. You can bet your ### that's why the Browns moved on. 

 

[ghostguy123]

Maybe, just maybe, to go along with not believing Wentz is legit, the Browns FO wants to build up a roster that would be somewhat attractive to a NON drafted QB.  I mean, let's face it, nobody wants to play for Cleveland, especially a good QB who wants to win.  For example:

Peyton Manning going to Denver

Alex Smith going to KC

Brees going to New Orleans

Palmer going to Arizona

I realize that doesn't happen much, but I do know it will happen ZERO percent of the time if your roster looks like total trashtastic crapola. 

 

[QuizGuy66]

To the original question.  The Ki-Jana Carter trade :(   comes to mind.  Panthers were able to get Collins anyway.

-QG

 

[GrandpaRox]

A rookie QB with a crappy team is a disaster waiting to happen and does not usually work out well. I think it is better to build up the team with the extra draft picks and wait until 2017 to get a better QB. Which really makes me SMH why the Eagles gave up so much with Bradford on the team. 

I do not believe that any 2016 QB will be better than Mariotta or Winston or the top QB's coming out in  2017.  Was just a dumb year to do this. IMO

 

[Riversco]

So you believe Wentz is the answer?

Absolutely.  I think Wentz is one of the top QB prospects to enter the draft this century.  I think he is a blue chipper.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Name any team that traded up for a QB a few weeks BEFORE the draft that would be considered a success?

The only times I can recall where teams made moves up the draft board and were successful were either during the draft, Eli, Flacco, Vick, or AFTER the draft like a John Elway situation where he didn't want to play for the Colt owner and threatened to play baseball where John attended a baseball preseason game to scare the Colts forcing their hand to make a trade.

But can ANYONE give an example of any NFL trading up a week or two BEFORE the NFL draft for a QB where it worked out?  I can't think of any.  RG III did play well his rookie season and took his team to the post season but no one can honestly say that deal worked out for Washington.  You can explain it away but the bottom line is, trading up to draft a QB did not work out for Washington

Probably not enough data because these sorts of deals have not taken place often enough but even when teams are on the clock, moving up for a QB fails more often than succeeds.  Examples, Ryan Leaf, Blaine Gabbert, Tim Tebow, Brady Quinn, etc. et el...  The list is pretty lengthy of teams moving up to draft a QB in the first round where it didn't pan out.

So we will see if either Goff or Wentz deals work out.

 

[Arodin]

The Browns apparently did not like Aaron Rodgers in 2005; did they make the right move taking Braylon Edwards instead?

If the Browns had taken Rodgers and the Packers got Edwards, our 2016 impressions of both players might be significantly different...

 

[Soulfly3]

Absolutely.  I think Wentz is one of the top QB prospects to enter the draft this century.  I think he is a blue chipper.

Is the starting date of your centurion calendar, 2016?

 

[Riversco]

Since Ki-Jana Carter was mentioned, I went back and listed every QB taken top 5 from 1995-2014.

95 mcnair, collins
96 no qbs taken
97 no qbs taken
98 manning (leaf)
99 mcnabb (couch, akili smith)
00 none taken
01 vick
02 (carr, harrington)
03 palmer
04 eli manning, phillip rivers
05 (alex smith)
06 (young)
07 (Russell)
08 ryan
09 stafford, (sanchez)
10 (bradford)
11 newton
12 luck, (RG3)
13 none selected
14 bortles

QBs in parenthesis didn't pan out.

13 of 23 panned out, slightly over 50%

How about the rest of round 1 from 95-2014?

95 none taken
96 none taken
97 (druckenmiller)
98 none taken
99 culpepper (cade mcnown)
00 (pennington)
01 none taken
02 (ramsey)
03 (leftwich, boller, grossman)
04 Roethlisberger (losman)
05 rodgers (campbell)
06 cutler (leinart)
07 (quinn)
08 flacco
09 (freeman)
10 (tebow)
11 (locker, gabbert, ponder)
12 (tannehill, weeden)
13 (manuel)
14 bridgewater (manziel)

6 of 26 panned out, way under 50%  and even then, bridgewater might wind up a bust, cutler was been skewered for years, and culpepper had a very short career.  take those 3 out, and you are left with roethlisberger, rodgers, and flacco.

when it comes to winning a super bowl, the top 5 produced 2 QBs to do that -- the Manning Brothers.  The rest of round 1 produced 3 QBs to do it.

Rounds 2 and 3 combined have also produced two QBs to win a super bowl (brees, wilson) but the odds of even finding a QB in those 2 rounds that can play are far, far worse.

 

[Riversco]

QBs drafted in the top 5 to play in a super bowl:  (6) McNair, Collins, Peyton, McNabb, Eli, Newton

QBs drafted from 1.06 to end of round 1 to play in a super bowl (4) Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Flacco, Grossman

Top 5 to play in an AFC or NFC championship game:  add (4) Vick, Rivers, Ryan, Luck

rest of round to play in championship game: none

 

[cstu]

Name any team that traded up for a QB a few weeks BEFORE the draft that would be considered a success?

The only times I can recall where teams made moves up the draft board and were successful were either during the draft, Eli, Flacco, Vick, or AFTER the draft like a John Elway situation where he didn't want to play for the Colt owner and threatened to play baseball where John attended a baseball preseason game to scare the Colts forcing their hand to make a trade.

But can ANYONE give an example of any NFL trading up a week or two BEFORE the NFL draft for a QB where it worked out?  I can't think of any.  RG III did play well his rookie season and took his team to the post season but no one can honestly say that deal worked out for Washington.  You can explain it away but the bottom line is, trading up to draft a QB did not work out for Washington

Probably not enough data because these sorts of deals have not taken place often enough but even when teams are on the clock, moving up for a QB fails more often than succeeds.  Examples, Ryan Leaf, Blaine Gabbert, Tim Tebow, Brady Quinn, etc. et el...  The list is pretty lengthy of teams moving up to draft a QB in the first round where it didn't pan out.

So we will see if either Goff or Wentz deals work out.

Not sure of the significance of trading prior vs. during/after the draft.  The Giants tried trading for Eli before the draft, but the Chargers relented after finding out he wasn't bluffing.  It's very rare for a team to trade down when there's a highly rated QB available and they need one.  I think most deals happen the day of the draft because that's when the value of the pick is highest.

 

[renesauz]

I mean, I hate to simplify it this way, but all of us posting in this thread have almost as much experience playing QB against NFL competition as Wentz. 

I can easily see why the Brown's FO does not want a soon to be 24 year old with limited reps, with those reps being against sub par player who have no NFL future.

I'm not sure how relevant the "level of competition" argument is at QB though. I mean, an elite WR, RB, or lineman will easily stand out at a lower level, and it's easy to question how much is that player being elite vs. his opponent sucking. But at QB...his O-line is lesser talent, his RBs are lesser talents, and his WR's are lesser talents. There have been plenty of QBs that played at big schools and looked great...but routinely faced schools that were ACROSS THE BOARD lesser talents and were easy to dominate. Those QBs have failed at the NFL level. Does it matter that an opposing CB is a lesser talent when your WR also sucks? Meanwhile, Wentz performed brilliantly in big games, including a comeback win in the biggest game of his career. 

There aren't a lot of highly drafted QBs that come out of FCS...but those that have have been successful! (FLacco)

I don't like the deal for Philly...never been a fan of trading up as the price is almost always too high, but Wentz seems like a legit #2 pick to me.