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Which Players from SB WINNING Pats teams will make the HOF? (1 Viewer)

Anarchy99

Footballguy
Looking at only PLAYERS from the 2001, 2003, and 2004 Patriots teams, who else besides Tom Brady will ever make the NFL HOF? The options certainly aren't great and include (in no particular order) Asante Samuel, Drew Bledsoe, Adam Vinatieri, Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Willie McGinest, Matt Light, Rodney Harrison, Vince Wilfork, and Corey Dillon.

By comparison, the 70s Dolphins era championship teams have 6 HOFers. The 70s Steelers have 9 members enshrined. The 80s era 49ers had 5 players inducted, while the 90s Cowboys have gotten 4 players into Canton so far. The multi-time champion Redskins of the 80s and 90s have 4 inductees.

Could it be that a 3 time SB champion will only have ONE player get into the Hall of Fame? Who else has a legit chance? Who else do you think will eventually make it in?

Taken individually, I would not vote for any of those guys. But I have a hard time thinking that a multi-time champion will only yield one Hall of Fame player.

 

Raider Nation

Devil's Advocate
Oddly enough, I think Vinatieri has the best chance. Then Vince.

Edit: after brief research, Seymour has a pretty damn good résumé.

 
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Ghost Rider

Footballguy
Dillon should make it, but he won't.

Vinatieri might make it.

Seymour and Harrison will get strong consideration. Maybe Law, too.

The others, probably not. The idea of Bruschi even getting consideration is laughable.

 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
Dillon should make it, but he won't.

Vinatieri might make it.

Seymour and Harrison will get strong consideration. Maybe Law, too.

The others, probably not. The idea of Bruschi even getting consideration is laughable.
Bruschi recently made the Patriots HOF and there was heated banter and debate on talk/sports radio about him being a legit NFL HOF candidate down the road (mostly as a veteran's committee selection). I don't think he'll make it (or should make it), but there were plenty of homers thinking he had a shot.

 

Raider Nation

Devil's Advocate
No chance Vinatieri makes it. A couple clutch kicks doesn't make you HOF material.
Strongly disagree. He's the most clutch kicker ever. Bill concurs:

Patriots coach Bill Belichick is a man of few words, a coach who will rarely come out and just compliment someone or pronounce where their place in the game should be. But, short of a straight-up endorsement, he advocated in every other way Friday when asked about former New England kicker Adam Vinatieri and whether the sure-footed field goal-maker should have a spot in the Hall of Fame.

The normally reserved Belichick gave a solid argument for Vinatieri’s inclusion. “He’s certainly one of the greatest kickers I’ve ever seen since I’ve been in the league — the longevity, the production, the performance in championships and big games,” Belichick said. “What more could he do? Go out there and play wide receiver and catch a bunch of passes? Is that what he needs to do? I don’t know. What more could he do? “I don’t know what more Dave Jennings could have done at his position or Ray Guy or guys like that. What else would they have had to do? Get a bunch of interceptions? We don’t judge quarterbacks on their rushing yardage. We don’t judge them on how many tackles they made. I don’t know if we even judge them on how many games they win. We judge them on a lot of their quarterback rating and stats and running backs on rushing yardage. “What does a guy have to do if he excels at his position? Is that good enough? I don’t know.”

Vinatieri smashed in 81.9 percent of his kicks with the Patriots, including 18 game-winning field goals with less than a minute to go. Considered a true clutch player, he had the winner in the “Tuck Rule game” and the first two of the Patriots’ three Super Bowl victories. After he moved on to the Indianapolis Colts as a free agent, he continued to be one of the game’s best kickers, forging a long, consistent career to go along with his performances in the biggest games.

Belichick admitted that it’s hard for kickers to get into the Hall of Fame due to the tradition and a criteria that even he couldn’t define. “I don’t know what Hall of Fame means,” he said. “There are guys who have great, long careers. There are other guys with very short careers in the Hall of Fame, from championship teams. There are guys that never or hardly ever played on winning teams. There are guys with personal stats. There are guys with I’d say less personal stats but maybe more championships or more longevity. I don’t know what the criteria is for the Hall of Fame. I’m not in any position, to be honest with you. … It’s hard for me to believe that, as great as this game is, that there are no punters and one kicker in the Hall of Fame.” Vinatieri will have to wait until his career is over to see whether he’s deemed worthy — but while the Hall of Fame may not be a lock just yet, he certainly has Belichick’s vote.
 

Ghost Rider

Footballguy
Dillon should make it, but he won't.

Vinatieri might make it.

Seymour and Harrison will get strong consideration. Maybe Law, too.

The others, probably not. The idea of Bruschi even getting consideration is laughable.
Bruschi recently made the Patriots HOF and there was heated banter and debate on talk/sports radio about him being a legit NFL HOF candidate down the road (mostly as a veteran's committee selection). I don't think he'll make it (or should make it), but there were plenty of homers thinking he had a shot.
You said it: homers. I doubt any rational football fan outside of the New England area thinks he is a legit HOF candidate.

 

Quibbler

Footballguy
Vinatieri, Seymour, and Wilfork if he keeps playing at his level for a few more years.

The only way Bruschi gets in is if he becomes the head of the NFLPA or something equally implausible.

 

gandalas

Footballguy
Gotta think that Rodney Harrison gets strong consideration. Two Pro-bowl seasons with Chargers before he even joined the Patriots.

  • In 1997, he became first player in NFL history to score touchdowns on an interception return, fumble return and kickoff return in same season.
  • He has the most sacks (30.5) of any defensive back in NFL history.
  • He had four interceptions in three games in the 2004-05 playoffs.
  • His seven playoff interceptions (including one returned for a touchdown) are a Patriots team record.
  • He is one of 12 players in the history of the NFL to record at least 20 interceptions and 20 sacks in his career, for which he is well regarded. The other members of this small club are linebackers Tom Jackson, Seth Joyner, Brian Urlacher, Wilber Marshall, William Thomas, Donnie Edwards, London Fletcher and Ray Lewis, safeties LeRoy Butler, Brian Dawkins, Lawyer Milloy and Adrian Wilson, and cornerback Ronde Barber.
  • On October 21, 2007, he became the initial member of the 30/30 Club of players with both 30 interceptions and 30 sacks. He is joined by Baltimore Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
IIRC, the main guys here were discussed in other HOF threads (I think started by JWB) and seemingly fell on the outside looking in due to the stiff competition at DB and DL.

 

gandalas

Footballguy
Corey Dillon also probably SHOULD get consideration, but likely won't make it.

#17 on all-time rushing yards list. Everyone above him who is eligible is already in except Jerome Bettis, and Dillon actually has a respectable 4.3 career YPC mark, unlike Bettis.

#16 on all-time rushing TD list. Everyone above him who is eligible is in, other than Bettis and Priest Holmes.

 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
Corey Dillon also probably SHOULD get consideration, but likely won't make it.

#17 on all-time rushing yards list. Everyone above him who is eligible is already in except Jerome Bettis, and Dillon actually has a respectable 4.3 career YPC mark, unlike Bettis.

#16 on all-time rushing TD list. Everyone above him who is eligible is in, other than Bettis and Priest Holmes.
The bigger issue is not who ahead of him made it, it's the players in front of him that likely WON'T make it. Bettis will most likely make it in (and playing for the Steelers won't hurt). But Edgerrin James and Fred Taylor have better totals and could end up falling short. Warrick Dunn had only 274 fewer rushing yards than Dillon, and I don't think many people think Dunn has much chance of induction.

 

Ghost Rider

Footballguy
Corey Dillon also probably SHOULD get consideration, but likely won't make it.

#17 on all-time rushing yards list. Everyone above him who is eligible is already in except Jerome Bettis, and Dillon actually has a respectable 4.3 career YPC mark, unlike Bettis.

#16 on all-time rushing TD list. Everyone above him who is eligible is in, other than Bettis and Priest Holmes.
The bigger issue is not who ahead of him made it, it's the players in front of him that likely WON'T make it. Bettis will most likely make it in (and playing for the Steelers won't hurt). But Edgerrin James and Fred Taylor have better totals and could end up falling short. Warrick Dunn had only 274 fewer rushing yards than Dillon, and I don't think many people think Dunn has much chance of induction.
It should help Dillon that he put up some absolutely monster seasons on some bad Bengals teams, and then had a 1,600-yard season on a Super Bowl-winning team. I don't think he will get in, but a strong argument can be made in his favor.

I wonder how many Super Bowl-winning teams in the last 20 years had a 1,600-yard rusher. Looking it up, just three: Emmitt Smith, Terrell Davis and Corey Dillon. That's it. Plus, from his era, Dillon is one of the few RBs to be a major cog on a title-winning team (along with M. Faulk; Bettis does not count, since he was a backup role player in '05), and that has to count for something, right?

 
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Just Win Baby

Footballguy
Looking at only PLAYERS from the 2001, 2003, and 2004 Patriots teams, who else besides Tom Brady will ever make the NFL HOF? The options certainly aren't great and include (in no particular order) Asante Samuel, Drew Bledsoe, Adam Vinatieri, Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Willie McGinest, Matt Light, Rodney Harrison, Vince Wilfork, and Corey Dillon.

By comparison, the 70s Dolphins era championship teams have 6 HOFers. The 70s Steelers have 9 members enshrined. The 80s era 49ers had 5 players inducted, while the 90s Cowboys have gotten 4 players into Canton so far. The multi-time champion Redskins of the 80s and 90s have 4 inductees.

Could it be that a 3 time SB champion will only have ONE player get into the Hall of Fame? Who else has a legit chance? Who else do you think will eventually make it in?

Taken individually, I would not vote for any of those guys. But I have a hard time thinking that a multi-time champion will only yield one Hall of Fame player.
IMO Harrison is deserving but won't make it. Seymour and Law are long shots. I doubt either makes it. Vinatieri has no shot; multiple other kickers are more deserving and probably won't get in. I don't think any of the others have a chance.

This is an excellent counterpoint to the discussion in the coaching thread.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
First, as Drinen is so fond of saying, at the beginning of every HoF discussion you have to make it clear whether you're discussing ought or will. For instance, Vinatieri will make the Hall of Fame, but he really oughtn't. At the end of the day, assuming both players continue following their current trajectory, I think both Seymour and Wilfork ought to make the Hall of Fame... but I don't know if they will. I'd also put Big Ted Washington in from the 2003 squad, but I doubt he ever makes it (I think playing for 6 different teams will really hurt him because no one franchise is going to claim him as their own and take up his cause). Ty Law certainly deserves consideration; I wouldn't enshrine him, but I think there's an outside chance the committee will. Ditto that for Rodney Harrison- I think he's a second-tier choice in that massive safety backlog (I think Atwater has a more compelling case, and the Hall doesn't seem particularly eager to elect him any time soon), but there's a chance the Hall takes a shining to him and enshrines him. I would even say that Matt Light has an incredibly remote chance- it's possible he gets the Jeff Saturday treatment and the further the media and public gets away from him, the more fondly they remember him. If he'd padded his resume with a few more undeserved pro bowls at the end of his career like Saturday did, his chances would be a lot better, but certainly stranger things have happened with the Hall of Fame (yes, Charlie Joiner, I'm talking about you).

In the end, if I'm speculating the final outcome, I think the New England SB champions will get four representatives in the hall- Brady, Belichick, Vinatieri, and either Wilfork or Seymour. If I were in charge of the process, I'd give them five- Brady, Belichick, Washington, and both Wilfork and Seymour. Either figure seems to be more or less right in line with what they'd deserve, based on what recent multi-SB champions are getting.

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
No chance Vinatieri makes it. A couple clutch kicks doesn't make you HOF material.
Strongly disagree. He's the most clutch kicker ever. Bill concurs:

>Patriots coach Bill Belichick is a man of few words, a coach who will rarely come out and just compliment someone or pronounce where their place in the game should be. But, short of a straight-up endorsement, he advocated in every other way Friday when asked about former New England kicker Adam Vinatieri and whether the sure-footed field goal-maker should have a spot in the Hall of Fame.

The normally reserved Belichick gave a solid argument for Vinatieri’s inclusion. “He’s certainly one of the greatest kickers I’ve ever seen since I’ve been in the league — the longevity, the production, the performance in championships and big games,” Belichick said. “What more could he do? Go out there and play wide receiver and catch a bunch of passes? Is that what he needs to do? I don’t know. What more could he do? “I don’t know what more Dave Jennings could have done at his position or Ray Guy or guys like that. What else would they have had to do? Get a bunch of interceptions? We don’t judge quarterbacks on their rushing yardage. We don’t judge them on how many tackles they made. I don’t know if we even judge them on how many games they win. We judge them on a lot of their quarterback rating and stats and running backs on rushing yardage. “What does a guy have to do if he excels at his position? Is that good enough? I don’t know.”

Vinatieri smashed in 81.9 percent of his kicks with the Patriots, including 18 game-winning field goals with less than a minute to go. Considered a true clutch player, he had the winner in the “Tuck Rule game” and the first two of the Patriots’ three Super Bowl victories. After he moved on to the Indianapolis Colts as a free agent, he continued to be one of the game’s best kickers, forging a long, consistent career to go along with his performances in the biggest games.

Belichick admitted that it’s hard for kickers to get into the Hall of Fame due to the tradition and a criteria that even he couldn’t define. “I don’t know what Hall of Fame means,” he said. “There are guys who have great, long careers. There are other guys with very short careers in the Hall of Fame, from championship teams. There are guys that never or hardly ever played on winning teams. There are guys with personal stats. There are guys with I’d say less personal stats but maybe more championships or more longevity. I don’t know what the criteria is for the Hall of Fame. I’m not in any position, to be honest with you. … It’s hard for me to believe that, as great as this game is, that there are no punters and one kicker in the Hall of Fame.” Vinatieri will have to wait until his career is over to see whether he’s deemed worthy — but while the Hall of Fame may not be a lock just yet, he certainly has Belichick’s vote.
This has been discussed numerous times in the Shark Pool in recent years. No kicker deserves to make it over a HOF caliber offensive or defensive player, period. Same for Steve Tasker, Devin Hester, et al.

And Morten Andersen, Jason Elam, and Nick Lowery are all more deserving should it reach the point of inducting kickers.

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
First, as Drinen is so fond of saying, at the beginning of every HoF discussion you have to make it clear whether you're discussing ought or will. For instance, Vinatieri will make the Hall of Fame, but he really oughtn't. At the end of the day, assuming both players continue following their current trajectory, I think both Seymour and Wilfork ought to make the Hall of Fame... but I don't know if they will. I'd also put Big Ted Washington in from the 2003 squad, but I doubt he ever makes it (I think playing for 6 different teams will really hurt him because no one franchise is going to claim him as their own and take up his cause). Ty Law certainly deserves consideration; I wouldn't enshrine him, but I think there's an outside chance the committee will. Ditto that for Rodney Harrison- I think he's a second-tier choice in that massive safety backlog (I think Atwater has a more compelling case, and the Hall doesn't seem particularly eager to elect him any time soon), but there's a chance the Hall takes a shining to him and enshrines him. I would even say that Matt Light has an incredibly remote chance- it's possible he gets the Jeff Saturday treatment and the further the media and public gets away from him, the more fondly they remember him. If he'd padded his resume with a few more undeserved pro bowls at the end of his career like Saturday did, his chances would be a lot better, but certainly stranger things have happened with the Hall of Fame (yes, Charlie Joiner, I'm talking about you).In the end, if I'm speculating the final outcome, I think the New England SB champions will get four representatives in the hall- Brady, Belichick, Vinatieri, and either Wilfork or Seymour. If I were in charge of the process, I'd give them five- Brady, Belichick, Washington, and both Wilfork and Seymour. Either figure seems to be more or less right in line with what they'd deserve, based on what recent multi-SB champions are getting.
Light has 1 1st team All Pro selection. Same for Wilfork, who is 31 and unlikely to earn many (any?) more at this point. Law has 2. So far, none of them have built a HOF resume.

Of everyone you named (besides Brady and Belichick), Seymour has the best chance. He would have a better chance had he stayed in New England, though.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
Corey Dillon also probably SHOULD get consideration, but likely won't make it. #17 on all-time rushing yards list. Everyone above him who is eligible is already in except Jerome Bettis, and Dillon actually has a respectable 4.3 career YPC mark, unlike Bettis. #16 on all-time rushing TD list. Everyone above him who is eligible is in, other than Bettis and Priest Holmes.
The bigger issue is not who ahead of him made it, it's the players in front of him that likely WON'T make it. Bettis will most likely make it in (and playing for the Steelers won't hurt). But Edgerrin James and Fred Taylor have better totals and could end up falling short. Warrick Dunn had only 274 fewer rushing yards than Dillon, and I don't think many people think Dunn has much chance of induction.
It should help Dillon that he put up some absolutely monster seasons on some bad Bengals teams, and then had a 1,600-yard season on a Super Bowl-winning team. I don't think he will get in, but a strong argument can be made in his favor. I wonder how many Super Bowl-winning teams in the last 20 years had a 1,600-yard rusher. Looking it up, just three: Emmitt Smith, Terrell Davis and Corey Dillon. That's it. Plus, from his era, Dillon is one of the few RBs to be a major cog on a title-winning team (along with M. Faulk; Bettis does not count, since he was a backup role player in '05), and that has to count for something, right?
I don't think I ever once watched Corey Dillon while he was active and thought "this guy is a Hall of Famer". Not even when he was busy ripping up the Broncos and setting the single-game rushing record. I never thought the guy who eventually broke that record was a Hall of Famer, either. Corey Dillon to me was always in that Jamal Lewis, Brian Westbrook, Shaun Alexander tier of backs that were very, very good... but nowhere near deserving of Canton. To take another fantastic RB from a bad team, I think Steven Jackson is clearly more talented than Dillon, and I don't think he sniffs Canton, either. Maybe if things had played out differently and he'd played for a different franchise, but Canton is ultimately a place that rewards what was, not what might have been. Dillon only made four pro bowls, was never so much as a second team AP All Pro, never won any major awards, and 2004 was the only year he finished in the top 3 in any of the big 4 categories (rushing yards, rushing TDs, total yards, total TDs), when he ranked 3rd in rushing yards. I like Dillon even less than I like Bettis, and everyone who has participated in these discussions before knows how little I like Bettis (I think he's going to be one of the five most undeserving players in Canton when the committee elects him, as they will inevitably do because hey did you know that Superbowl 40 was in Detroit and JEROME BETTIS WAS BORN IN DETROIT and also 40 is spelled XL and Jerome Bettis is a rather portly gentleman?)
 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
Just Win Baby said:
Raider Nation said:
gianmarco said:
No chance Vinatieri makes it. A couple clutch kicks doesn't make you HOF material.
Strongly disagree. He's the most clutch kicker ever. Bill concurs:
>Patriots coach Bill Belichick is a man of few words, a coach who will rarely come out and just compliment someone or pronounce where their place in the game should be. But, short of a straight-up endorsement, he advocated in every other way Friday when asked about former New England kicker Adam Vinatieri and whether the sure-footed field goal-maker should have a spot in the Hall of Fame. The normally reserved Belichick gave a solid argument for Vinatieris inclusion. Hes certainly one of the greatest kickers Ive ever seen since Ive been in the league the longevity, the production, the performance in championships and big games, Belichick said. What more could he do? Go out there and play wide receiver and catch a bunch of passes? Is that what he needs to do? I dont know. What more could he do? I dont know what more Dave Jennings could have done at his position or Ray Guy or guys like that. What else would they have had to do? Get a bunch of interceptions? We dont judge quarterbacks on their rushing yardage. We dont judge them on how many tackles they made. I dont know if we even judge them on how many games they win. We judge them on a lot of their quarterback rating and stats and running backs on rushing yardage. What does a guy have to do if he excels at his position? Is that good enough? I dont know. Vinatieri smashed in 81.9 percent of his kicks with the Patriots, including 18 game-winning field goals with less than a minute to go. Considered a true clutch player, he had the winner in the Tuck Rule game and the first two of the Patriots three Super Bowl victories. After he moved on to the Indianapolis Colts as a free agent, he continued to be one of the games best kickers, forging a long, consistent career to go along with his performances in the biggest games. Belichick admitted that its hard for kickers to get into the Hall of Fame due to the tradition and a criteria that even he couldnt define. I dont know what Hall of Fame means, he said. There are guys who have great, long careers. There are other guys with very short careers in the Hall of Fame, from championship teams. There are guys that never or hardly ever played on winning teams. There are guys with personal stats. There are guys with Id say less personal stats but maybe more championships or more longevity. I dont know what the criteria is for the Hall of Fame. Im not in any position, to be honest with you. Its hard for me to believe that, as great as this game is, that there are no punters and one kicker in the Hall of Fame. Vinatieri will have to wait until his career is over to see whether hes deemed worthy but while the Hall of Fame may not be a lock just yet, he certainly has Belichicks vote.
This has been discussed numerous times in the Shark Pool in recent years. No kicker deserves to make it over a HOF caliber offensive or defensive player, period. Same for Steve Tasker, Devin Hester, et al. And Morten Andersen, Jason Elam, and Nick Lowery are all more deserving should it reach the point of inducting kickers.
Don't forget David Akers, who has an almost identical resume in terms of points scored and career percentage, but who I believe actually kicked more postseason game-winners than Vinatieri, and had a better postseason percentage, to boot. Plus, Akers leads Vinatieri in pro bowls, 6 to 2, matches him in first-team AP All Pros (2 apiece), and holds the single-season record for attempts and makes from the 2011 season. Perhaps most importantly, Akers dominated Vinatieri in kickoffs over his career.Of course, we're all wasting our breath, because Vinatieri will get in and Morten will probably get in and none of the others will even make it to semi-finalist status, because Vinatieri made three kicks and was along for the ride on four championship squads.
 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
Just Win Baby said:
Adam Harstad said:
First, as Drinen is so fond of saying, at the beginning of every HoF discussion you have to make it clear whether you're discussing ought or will. For instance, Vinatieri will make the Hall of Fame, but he really oughtn't. At the end of the day, assuming both players continue following their current trajectory, I think both Seymour and Wilfork ought to make the Hall of Fame... but I don't know if they will. I'd also put Big Ted Washington in from the 2003 squad, but I doubt he ever makes it (I think playing for 6 different teams will really hurt him because no one franchise is going to claim him as their own and take up his cause). Ty Law certainly deserves consideration; I wouldn't enshrine him, but I think there's an outside chance the committee will. Ditto that for Rodney Harrison- I think he's a second-tier choice in that massive safety backlog (I think Atwater has a more compelling case, and the Hall doesn't seem particularly eager to elect him any time soon), but there's a chance the Hall takes a shining to him and enshrines him. I would even say that Matt Light has an incredibly remote chance- it's possible he gets the Jeff Saturday treatment and the further the media and public gets away from him, the more fondly they remember him. If he'd padded his resume with a few more undeserved pro bowls at the end of his career like Saturday did, his chances would be a lot better, but certainly stranger things have happened with the Hall of Fame (yes, Charlie Joiner, I'm talking about you).In the end, if I'm speculating the final outcome, I think the New England SB champions will get four representatives in the hall- Brady, Belichick, Vinatieri, and either Wilfork or Seymour. If I were in charge of the process, I'd give them five- Brady, Belichick, Washington, and both Wilfork and Seymour. Either figure seems to be more or less right in line with what they'd deserve, based on what recent multi-SB champions are getting.
Light has 1 1st team All Pro selection. Same for Wilfork, who is 31 and unlikely to earn many (any?) more at this point. Law has 2. So far, none of them have built a HOF resume. Of everyone you named (besides Brady and Belichick), Seymour has the best chance. He would have a better chance had he stayed in New England, though.
That's the ought/is difference, though. The lack of All Pros will certainly impact whether Wilfork or Seymour *IS* a Hall of Famer, but I think they have no bearing on whether they *OUGHT* to be. Both guys made their bones as NTs, 4-3 DTs, and 3-4 DEs, and pro bowls/all pros are handed out pretty much entirely based on sacks, which are ridiculously hard to accumulate as an NT, 4-3 DT, or 3-4 DE. Both players were among the top 3 at their respective position for half a decade or more, and both players played a position that was a cornerstone for their respective defenses and which is notoriously hard to fill. In my mind, both are Hall of Famers (the reasoning and argument are exactly the same for Ted Washington, too). I agree with you that their lack of postseason honors will weigh against them, but I also think voters will feel that the Patriots are underrepresented, and will feel pressured to elect somebody from the franchise. I think it's probably going to be Seymour, since the perception at the time was that he was the second best (or possibly even first best) player on the franchise and since he was around for all three titles. I wouldn't be shocked if it was Wilfork, instead. I do think that voters eventually induct a fourth member from those Patriots franchises, though, and I think it'll be one of those two.
 

Ghost Rider

Footballguy
Adam Harstad said:
Ghost Rider said:
Anarchy99 said:
gandalas said:
Corey Dillon also probably SHOULD get consideration, but likely won't make it. #17 on all-time rushing yards list. Everyone above him who is eligible is already in except Jerome Bettis, and Dillon actually has a respectable 4.3 career YPC mark, unlike Bettis. #16 on all-time rushing TD list. Everyone above him who is eligible is in, other than Bettis and Priest Holmes.
The bigger issue is not who ahead of him made it, it's the players in front of him that likely WON'T make it. Bettis will most likely make it in (and playing for the Steelers won't hurt). But Edgerrin James and Fred Taylor have better totals and could end up falling short. Warrick Dunn had only 274 fewer rushing yards than Dillon, and I don't think many people think Dunn has much chance of induction.
It should help Dillon that he put up some absolutely monster seasons on some bad Bengals teams, and then had a 1,600-yard season on a Super Bowl-winning team. I don't think he will get in, but a strong argument can be made in his favor. I wonder how many Super Bowl-winning teams in the last 20 years had a 1,600-yard rusher. Looking it up, just three: Emmitt Smith, Terrell Davis and Corey Dillon. That's it. Plus, from his era, Dillon is one of the few RBs to be a major cog on a title-winning team (along with M. Faulk; Bettis does not count, since he was a backup role player in '05), and that has to count for something, right?
I don't think I ever once watched Corey Dillon while he was active and thought "this guy is a Hall of Famer". Not even when he was busy ripping up the Broncos and setting the single-game rushing record. I never thought the guy who eventually broke that record was a Hall of Famer, either. Corey Dillon to me was always in that Jamal Lewis, Brian Westbrook, Shaun Alexander tier of backs that were very, very good... but nowhere near deserving of Canton. To take another fantastic RB from a bad team, I think Steven Jackson is clearly more talented than Dillon, and I don't think he sniffs Canton, either. Maybe if things had played out differently and he'd played for a different franchise, but Canton is ultimately a place that rewards what was, not what might have been. Dillon only made four pro bowls, was never so much as a second team AP All Pro, never won any major awards, and 2004 was the only year he finished in the top 3 in any of the big 4 categories (rushing yards, rushing TDs, total yards, total TDs), when he ranked 3rd in rushing yards. I like Dillon even less than I like Bettis, and everyone who has participated in these discussions before knows how little I like Bettis (I think he's going to be one of the five most undeserving players in Canton when the committee elects him, as they will inevitably do because hey did you know that Superbowl 40 was in Detroit and JEROME BETTIS WAS BORN IN DETROIT and also 40 is spelled XL and Jerome Bettis is a rather portly gentleman?)
Very fair argument.

I don't put stock in pro bowls, however, for the record, as they are often skewed by alternates making it in certain years and whatnot.

I had a discussion with a friend who is a Titans diehard fan the other day, and he is convinced that Eddie George will make the Hall of Fame, and when I objected strongly, pointing out that George was at best the 9th best RB of his era, he was incredulous about anyone thinking Dillon was better than George. Which one do you like better all-time?

 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
Anarchy99 said:
Looking at only PLAYERS from the 2001, 2003, and 2004 Patriots teams, who else besides Tom Brady will ever make the NFL HOF? The options certainly aren't great and include (in no particular order) Asante Samuel, Drew Bledsoe, Adam Vinatieri, Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Willie McGinest, Matt Light, Rodney Harrison, Vince Wilfork, and Corey Dillon.

By comparison, the 70s Dolphins era championship teams have 6 HOFers. The 70s Steelers have 9 members enshrined. The 80s era 49ers had 5 players inducted, while the 90s Cowboys have gotten 4 players into Canton so far. The multi-time champion Redskins of the 80s and 90s have 4 inductees.

Could it be that a 3 time SB champion will only have ONE player get into the Hall of Fame? Who else has a legit chance? Who else do you think will eventually make it in?

Taken individually, I would not vote for any of those guys. But I have a hard time thinking that a multi-time champion will only yield one Hall of Fame player.
Obviously they were coached up, only fuels the folks who feel that NE was not really one of the GOAT dynasties or even back o back like SF, Dallas, Pitt, Miami. They were a blue collar lunch pail team that you either embraced or if you are a Miami fan you hated their guts. I respect the team and think Wilfork could make the HoF although it would be more of a run stopping DT, few big highlights but he is not a sack machine like Sapp was for a time.

 

Raider Nation

Devil's Advocate
The problem for people who think Vinatieri has no chance is that the precedent has already been set. It's one thing if there were no kickers already in, but if Jan Stenerud is in, then Vinatieri is a no-brainer. IMHO, of course.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
The problem for people who think Vinatieri has no chance is that the precedent has already been set. It's one thing if there were no kickers already in, but if Jan Stenerud is in, then Vinatieri is a no-brainer. IMHO, of course.
Again, it gets down to "is" vs. "ought". Was Vinatieri the best kicker of his generation? Absolutely not. Elam and Anderson had much more impressive stats, Akers equalled his stats and blew him away in awards and on kickoffs, and even guys like Stover and Hanson were pretty comparable. Was Vinatieri the best postseason kicker of his generation? Nope again- Elam and Akers had better percentages in the postseason. Was he the clutchest kicker of all time? Again, I doubt it- I think guys like Elam and Akers probably hit a comparable percentage of game-winners, and had their share of memorable kicks (I remember Elam's fire-drill kick against Buffalo pretty vividly). Was Vinatieri the guy who just happened to be in the right place at the right time to get a chance to attempt three high-profile kicks in 2001? Yeah, Vinatieri definitely gets the edge there... but does a kicker really deserve entry into the Hall of Fame because he was a good kicker and he once made three huge kicks in a two week span? My vote is a resounding, overwhelming NO!

Unfortunately, I think the actual Hall of Fame voters are going to vote yes. And that depresses me, because a guy like Ronde Barber or Tim Brown or Terrell Davis is going to miss the Hall of Fame because the voters would rather elect a guy who once made three big field goals in a two week span.

 

gianmarco

Footballguy
The problem for people who think Vinatieri has no chance is that the precedent has already been set. It's one thing if there were no kickers already in, but if Jan Stenerud is in, then Vinatieri is a no-brainer. IMHO, of course.
Vinatieri is:

--15th all-time in FG %

--8th all-time in FG%

--53rd in all-time XP %

There is 1 Kicker in the NFL HOF. Why would a guy who isn't even near the top of some of the important stats at his position get in? Yes, he's hit a few clutch kicks. But again, a few clutch kicks doesn't make you a HOFer.

Vinatieri has 413 career FGs. I'm putting in Morten Andersen's 565 in before Vinatieri. And if we're looking at game-winning/game-tying FGs, it's not as if he's distinguished himself from guy like Elam who's done it about the same number of times.

He won't get in and he doesn't deserve to either.

 
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Adam Harstad

Moderator
The problem for people who think Vinatieri has no chance is that the precedent has already been set. It's one thing if there were no kickers already in, but if Jan Stenerud is in, then Vinatieri is a no-brainer. IMHO, of course.
Again, it gets down to "is" vs. "ought". Was Vinatieri the best kicker of his generation? Absolutely not. Elam and Anderson had much more impressive stats, Akers equalled his stats and blew him away in awards and on kickoffs, and even guys like Stover and Hanson were pretty comparable. Was Vinatieri the best postseason kicker of his generation? Nope again- Elam and Akers had better percentages in the postseason. Was he the clutchest kicker of all time? Again, I doubt it- I think guys like Elam and Akers probably hit a comparable percentage of game-winners, and had their share of memorable kicks (I remember Elam's fire-drill kick against Buffalo pretty vividly). Was Vinatieri the guy who just happened to be in the right place at the right time to get a chance to attempt three high-profile kicks in 2001? Yeah, Vinatieri definitely gets the edge there... but does a kicker really deserve entry into the Hall of Fame because he was a good kicker and he once made three huge kicks in a two week span? My vote is a resounding, overwhelming NO!

Unfortunately, I think the actual Hall of Fame voters are going to vote yes. And that depresses me, because a guy like Ronde Barber or Tim Brown or Terrell Davis is going to miss the Hall of Fame because the voters would rather elect a guy who once made three big field goals in a two week span. If Tom Brady's "incomplete pass" had been ruled a fumble, what do you think the chances are that Vinatieri would make the Hall of Fame? I would venture that his chances would have been 0.000%. His stats and awards don't stand out at all from among his peers, and without those three big kicks, his postseason resume would be pretty weak- he'd probably be best-known as the guy who missed two kicks against the Panthers. The idea that a guy goes from a 0.000% chance to a no-brainer lock based on a single controversial interpretation of a hitherto little-known rule is crazy to me. If Vinatieri is not a Hall of Famer without the tuck rule, then Vinatieri should not be a Hall of Famer. He probably will be, but he shouldn't be.

 

Chase Stuart

Footballguy
I don't have historical data on the time of scores, but Vinatieri is second behind Morten Anderson in 4th quarter/overtime game-winning field goals made.

http://www.footballperspective.com/fourth-quarterovertime-game-winning-field-goals/

A game-winning field goal is one when the team was tied or trailing, and after the made field goal, the team never trailed or was tied again. This obviously ignores misses, but I thought some might find the data interesting.

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
Just Win Baby said:
Adam Harstad said:
First, as Drinen is so fond of saying, at the beginning of every HoF discussion you have to make it clear whether you're discussing ought or will. For instance, Vinatieri will make the Hall of Fame, but he really oughtn't. At the end of the day, assuming both players continue following their current trajectory, I think both Seymour and Wilfork ought to make the Hall of Fame... but I don't know if they will. I'd also put Big Ted Washington in from the 2003 squad, but I doubt he ever makes it (I think playing for 6 different teams will really hurt him because no one franchise is going to claim him as their own and take up his cause). Ty Law certainly deserves consideration; I wouldn't enshrine him, but I think there's an outside chance the committee will. Ditto that for Rodney Harrison- I think he's a second-tier choice in that massive safety backlog (I think Atwater has a more compelling case, and the Hall doesn't seem particularly eager to elect him any time soon), but there's a chance the Hall takes a shining to him and enshrines him. I would even say that Matt Light has an incredibly remote chance- it's possible he gets the Jeff Saturday treatment and the further the media and public gets away from him, the more fondly they remember him. If he'd padded his resume with a few more undeserved pro bowls at the end of his career like Saturday did, his chances would be a lot better, but certainly stranger things have happened with the Hall of Fame (yes, Charlie Joiner, I'm talking about you).In the end, if I'm speculating the final outcome, I think the New England SB champions will get four representatives in the hall- Brady, Belichick, Vinatieri, and either Wilfork or Seymour. If I were in charge of the process, I'd give them five- Brady, Belichick, Washington, and both Wilfork and Seymour. Either figure seems to be more or less right in line with what they'd deserve, based on what recent multi-SB champions are getting.
Light has 1 1st team All Pro selection. Same for Wilfork, who is 31 and unlikely to earn many (any?) more at this point. Law has 2. So far, none of them have built a HOF resume. Of everyone you named (besides Brady and Belichick), Seymour has the best chance. He would have a better chance had he stayed in New England, though.
That's the ought/is difference, though. The lack of All Pros will certainly impact whether Wilfork or Seymour *IS* a Hall of Famer, but I think they have no bearing on whether they *OUGHT* to be. Both guys made their bones as NTs, 4-3 DTs, and 3-4 DEs, and pro bowls/all pros are handed out pretty much entirely based on sacks, which are ridiculously hard to accumulate as an NT, 4-3 DT, or 3-4 DE. Both players were among the top 3 at their respective position for half a decade or more, and both players played a position that was a cornerstone for their respective defenses and which is notoriously hard to fill. In my mind, both are Hall of Famers (the reasoning and argument are exactly the same for Ted Washington, too). I agree with you that their lack of postseason honors will weigh against them, but I also think voters will feel that the Patriots are underrepresented, and will feel pressured to elect somebody from the franchise. I think it's probably going to be Seymour, since the perception at the time was that he was the second best (or possibly even first best) player on the franchise and since he was around for all three titles. I wouldn't be shocked if it was Wilfork, instead. I do think that voters eventually induct a fourth member from those Patriots franchises, though, and I think it'll be one of those two.
I disagree this is the should/will difference. I don't think Light, Wilfork, or Law should get in, and I don't think any of them will get in.

You posted here that you believe Wilfork is already HOF worthy, at age 31. You posted here that he was a top 3 player at his position for 5+ years. What do you base these statements on? There must be some level of evidence, whether it is the caliber of the team's defense, individual statistics, individual honors, general recognition by experts/media, etc. I think you are definitely on an island here.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
Just Win Baby said:
Adam Harstad said:
First, as Drinen is so fond of saying, at the beginning of every HoF discussion you have to make it clear whether you're discussing ought or will. For instance, Vinatieri will make the Hall of Fame, but he really oughtn't. At the end of the day, assuming both players continue following their current trajectory, I think both Seymour and Wilfork ought to make the Hall of Fame... but I don't know if they will. I'd also put Big Ted Washington in from the 2003 squad, but I doubt he ever makes it (I think playing for 6 different teams will really hurt him because no one franchise is going to claim him as their own and take up his cause). Ty Law certainly deserves consideration; I wouldn't enshrine him, but I think there's an outside chance the committee will. Ditto that for Rodney Harrison- I think he's a second-tier choice in that massive safety backlog (I think Atwater has a more compelling case, and the Hall doesn't seem particularly eager to elect him any time soon), but there's a chance the Hall takes a shining to him and enshrines him. I would even say that Matt Light has an incredibly remote chance- it's possible he gets the Jeff Saturday treatment and the further the media and public gets away from him, the more fondly they remember him. If he'd padded his resume with a few more undeserved pro bowls at the end of his career like Saturday did, his chances would be a lot better, but certainly stranger things have happened with the Hall of Fame (yes, Charlie Joiner, I'm talking about you).

In the end, if I'm speculating the final outcome, I think the New England SB champions will get four representatives in the hall- Brady, Belichick, Vinatieri, and either Wilfork or Seymour. If I were in charge of the process, I'd give them five- Brady, Belichick, Washington, and both Wilfork and Seymour. Either figure seems to be more or less right in line with what they'd deserve, based on what recent multi-SB champions are getting.
Light has 1 1st team All Pro selection. Same for Wilfork, who is 31 and unlikely to earn many (any?) more at this point. Law has 2. So far, none of them have built a HOF resume.

Of everyone you named (besides Brady and Belichick), Seymour has the best chance. He would have a better chance had he stayed in New England, though.
That's the ought/is difference, though. The lack of All Pros will certainly impact whether Wilfork or Seymour *IS* a Hall of Famer, but I think they have no bearing on whether they *OUGHT* to be. Both guys made their bones as NTs, 4-3 DTs, and 3-4 DEs, and pro bowls/all pros are handed out pretty much entirely based on sacks, which are ridiculously hard to accumulate as an NT, 4-3 DT, or 3-4 DE. Both players were among the top 3 at their respective position for half a decade or more, and both players played a position that was a cornerstone for their respective defenses and which is notoriously hard to fill. In my mind, both are Hall of Famers (the reasoning and argument are exactly the same for Ted Washington, too). I agree with you that their lack of postseason honors will weigh against them, but I also think voters will feel that the Patriots are underrepresented, and will feel pressured to elect somebody from the franchise. I think it's probably going to be Seymour, since the perception at the time was that he was the second best (or possibly even first best) player on the franchise and since he was around for all three titles. I wouldn't be shocked if it was Wilfork, instead. I do think that voters eventually induct a fourth member from those Patriots franchises, though, and I think it'll be one of those two.
I disagree this is the should/will difference. I don't think Light, Wilfork, or Law should get in, and I don't think any of them will get in.

You posted here that you believe Wilfork is already HOF worthy, at age 31. You posted here that he was a top 3 player at his position for 5+ years. What do you base these statements on? There must be some level of evidence, whether it is the caliber of the team's defense, individual statistics, individual honors, general recognition by experts/media, etc. I think you are definitely on an island here.
I think Wilfork has already laid the groundwork for HoF induction. If his career ended today, I don't know if he'd get in, but I could say the same thing for Aaron Rodgers. Luckily, neither of their careers are ending today. As a first team AP All Pro in 2012, in fact, I'd say Wilfork's career is still going strong. I don't care about the awards, because as I said, they're biased towards 1-gap penetrators and away from 2-gap defenders... but Wilfork's piled up plenty of awards, anyway. He has five pro bowls in the last 6 years, and that aforementioned 1st team AP All Pro last year. He was a 2nd team AP All Pro in 2007, 2010, and 2011, and he was a 2nd team All Pro from the Sporting News in 2009, which provides a really strong profile of a guy who has been one of the top players at his position for over 5 years now. I've read plenty of reports of him being very highly regarded in the scouting community and media (here's the most recent one that came to mind). I really don't think I'm on an island on this one.

In fact, with his 6 pro bowls and 4 first or second team All Pros, I would challenge you to find me a more highly regarded 2-gap defensive lineman. Casey Hampton? Five pro bowls, no all pros (first or second team). Jamal Williams has 3 pro bowls and 3 all pros. Shaun Rogers had 3 pro bowls and 1 all pro. Kris Jenkins had 4 pro bowls and 3 all pros. Pat Williams (the 2-gapper from the "Williams Wall") had 3 pro bowls and 1 all pro. Ted Washington had 4 pro bowls and 2 all pros. Sam Adams had 3 pro bowls and 1 all pro. Without dipping into the more glamorous 1-gap, penetrating "under tackles" (Warren Sapp, Kevin Williams, La'Roi Glover), the only guy whose resume compares to Wilfork's is Haloti Ngata, with 4 pro bowls and 5 all pros. And I expect Ngata to one day wind up in the Hall of Fame, too.

Seymour's case is similarly solid. 7 pro bowls, 3 first team AP All Pros, 2 second team AP All Pros, first team all-decade DT, the second best player on a team that won three SBs. I think Seymour is a case of should/will. I think Wilfork is a case of should/might.

 

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