White Privilege and Intersectionality (1 Viewer)

[jonessed]

I mean, I agree with you.  But the poster above you stated that this was a white advantage.  I just don't get that.

Seems like he’s saying it’s an overall advantage, but white families tend to stay together more often.  That shouldn’t be attributed to “white privelege”.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I mean, I agree with you.  But the poster above you stated that this was a white advantage.  I just don't get that.

You dont think it's an advantage to have both parents around? 

 

[jon_mx]

I don't mean to be flippant, but live under Jim Crow and watch your leaders get murdered in front of you, and your neighbors lynched.  Tell me what you've got left after a few years. 

Really don't see what you really are suggesting.   There is no way to go back and make everything right from the past.   I suppose the right thing is to give it all back to the native Americans.   Where do we draw the line?  I believe in our current system is about the best there is.   Many people come to America with nothing and still manage to be successful.   Lots of poor people rise up and all have different challenges that must be overcome.  

 

[unckeyherb]

You dont think it's an advantage to have both parents around? 

Of course I do.  Why is that a white advantage?

 

[KarmaPolice]

Seems like he’s saying it’s an overall advantage, but white families tend to stay together more often.  That shouldn’t be attributed to “white privelege”.

It's a piece of the puzzle, and it's part of the white advantage when factors that trend as racially charged such as black Male incarceration rates are a reason for that trend. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Of course I do.  Why is that a white advantage?

Posted bout that just now. 

 

[unckeyherb]

Posted bout that just now. 

That doesn't address why its a white advantage.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

It's a piece of the puzzle, and it's part of the white advantage when factors that trend as racially charged such as black Male incarceration rates are a reason for that trend. 

I don't have the #s.  Is it possible that black males break the law more often than white males ?

 

[jon_mx]

It's a piece of the puzzle, and it's part of the white advantage when factors that trend as racially charged such as black Male incarceration rates are a reason for that trend. 

A large part of the incarceration rate is because of the crime rate.  We really don't seem to understand the root cause because none of the solutions are working very well.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Really don't see what you really are suggesting.   There is no way to go back and make everything right from the past.   I suppose the right thing is to give it all back to the native Americans.   Where do we draw the line?  I believe in our current system is about the best there is.   Many people come to America with nothing and still manage to be successful.   Lots of poor people rise up and all have different challenges that must be overcome.  

We're not just talking about poverty.

I believe when a society spends generations denying and systematically eradicating the societal respect and self-respect (and again, not respect in the self of "high esteem that must be earned" but rather respect in the sense of "intrinsically valued humanity") of a group of people, the important issue is not "who gets the land" but rather "how do we reinstill what we have taken from generations as quickly as possible." 

 

[unckeyherb]

That doesn't address why its a white advantage.

Let me ask it another way, why is single-parenthood so prevalent in Black homes?  Whites are and have been around 24-25% for a very long time.  Asians do better in that respect at around 16%.  Hispanics come in a little higher at 37%.  Blacks are around 67%.  2/3rds of kids born now are to a single-parent household.  Why? 

During the Civil rights era that Henry is talking about-an era of far more overt and actual institutional racism, black kids being born out of wedlock was right down at around 23%.  

 

[jon_mx]

We're not just talking about poverty.

I believe when a society spends generations denying and systematically eradicating the societal respect and self-respect (and again, not respect in the self of "high esteem that must be earned" but rather respect in the sense of "intrinsically valued humanity") of a group of people, the important issues is not "who gets the land" but rather "how do we reinstill what we have taken from generations as quickly as possible." 

So how do you do that?  I think the best way is to empower/encourage them to succeed.  I don't think going around complaining about white privilege accomplishes that, in fact it is probably counterproductive.  

 

[Henry Ford]

So how do you do that?  I think the best way is to empower/encourage them to succeed.  I don't think going around complaining about white privilege accomplishes that, in fact it is probably counterproductive.  

I don't think denying that it exists does that either.  In fact, it definitely does the opposite, by gaslighting people into thinking they had the exact same shot as the next guy.  

Honestly, if everyone would simply acknowledge its existence instead of many people arguing "NO THAT'S NOT REAL" every time it's brought up, a lot of the chatter would fade away.  

Enough respect to be honest with other people and ourselves is a good start to putting people on actually equal footing.  But it seems like the same old story of no respect at all when you tell someone he or she has a completely invalid perspective and to quit whining just because he or she points out something that actually exists.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Let me ask it another way, why is single-parenthood so prevalent in Black homes?  Whites are and have been around 24-25% for a very long time.  Asians do better in that respect at around 16%.  Hispanics come in a little higher at 37%.  Blacks are around 67%.  2/3rds of kids born now are to a single-parent household.  Why? 

During the Civil rights era that Henry is talking about-an era of far more overt and actual institutional racism, black kids being born out of wedlock was right down at around 23%.  

The imprisonment rate of African American men is about six times that of white men for drug offenses, despite similar rates of drug use.

Homicide is the #5 killer for black men - it isn't even in the top 10 for white men.

Those are a good start.

 

[unckeyherb]

Would you say, taking the long view, that the US government has treated persons of African descent equally to how it has treated persons of European descent?

How about Asians?  I mean not long before the Civil Rights era you've mentioned, Asians were not allowed to own land in California.  Like in the early 50's..  They were thrown into internment camps by the tens of thousands during WW2.  25 years later they were earning more than most whites.  They surely were not treated similarly to Europeans, were they?

 

[unckeyherb]

The imprisonment rate of African American men is about six times that of white men for drug offenses, despite similar rates of drug use.

Homicide is the #5 killer for black men - it isn't even in the top 10 for white men.

Those are a good start.

Why?  The top killer for white males is car accidents.  Why is it that if you are a black male that's been murdered there is a 90+% chance that it was at the hands of another black male?  

 

[Dooook]

There are a few facets to wage, wealth, and education disparities that have always been quite interesting to me  (first we must recognize that the history of marginalization of African Americans in this country is more severe than most other groups, just wanted to get that out of the way.)  There are a number of recognized minority groups in the US, African Americans, Jews, Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are perhaps the most recognized.  Throughout the history of this nation, each of these groups faced a period of oppression, none of which rivaled being enslaved, yet there have been serious social barriers placed in front of these minority groups.  In many areas, at a point in time, Asian immigrants were forced into ghettos or moved out of neighborhoods, we essentially banned the entry of Chinese into this country for about 60 years.  We are well versed in the plight of the Native American population of this country, they were displaced and forced onto reservations, losing vast resources and tens of thousands of lives.  Similarly, there was an aggressive anti-Jewish period where their "name" was placed next to the word "N" on signs warning them that they were unwelcome in certain public settings.   Hispanics in the Southwest were treated like slave labor, removed from their lands, and largely segregated from the white hordes that moved into their territory and to this day, many view Hispanics as third class citizens. 

When we break down these ethnic groups/races of people data tells us that by far Native Americans have fared the worse economically with poverty rates of almost 40% for those who live on reservations.  Native Americans experience higher rates of substance abuse than other demographic groups and have the second highest homicide rate...  It is hard to compare the plight of the Native American community to that of any other of the minority groups in the US.  African Americans, statistically, enjoy the second worse rate of poverty at roughly 25%, the highest homicide rates of any minority group (52% of all murders were committed by African American Assailants in 2016), and substance abuse rates of roughly 13%, depending on the data you review.  Hispanics have it fairly rough too with higher homicide and poverty rates than the national average...  Then you have average white people.

But, then the data show that in spite of the prejudice, Jewish households have a median net worth of over $400,000 compared to the $99,500 for the US.  The community has low incarceration rates and I couldn't fond too much on substance abuse.  Asians, broadly, seem to be the most successful group in the US.  In 2017, according to the BLS, Asian men earned 26% more in weekly earnings than white males, 79% more than Hispanic males, and 82% more than African American males (this is across all education levels and industry sectors.)  It is also fairly well known that Asians, on average, score higher on standardized tests, are more likely to hold college degrees and advanced degrees than other demographics. 

I've often wondered what has led to these huge discrepancies in outcomes.  Some of it would seem to be predicated on the degree of past oppression on the individual group, some of it would seem to be based on a "prejudiced" system, and other aspects of it would seem to be based on other social constructs.  To me, certain sociological factors seem play a strong hand, for example, there has been a great deal of discussion regarding single parent households, some sociologists are adamantly fighting against this notion that two parent households make a difference, but Asians, as a group, are the least likely to come from a single parent household, 16%, then non-Hispanic whites, 24%, Hispanics, 42%, Native Americans, 52%, and Blacks, 66%.  There has been a of banter about "cultural bias" in testing, but this seems to fall to the wayside when considering SAT scores among Hispanic and Asian students are higher than those achieved by African American students.  Asian American students also score much higher than Whites. 

With regard to wealth accumulation, one aspect that doesn't get discussed much is savings rates, there are studies Link that show that at the same income levels, African Americans and Hispanics save less than white households, this coupled with larger inheritances, helps for Whites to amass greater wealth than their African American and Hispanic counterparts...

I have literally run out of time...  My question, or position, is it seems there are many factors that drive the success or failure of minority populations.  In the US is prejudice by whites and a system that favors whites above others truly the issue or are there other sociological/cultural factors at work that lead to the outcomes that we see.   

 

[Henry Ford]

How about Asians?  I mean not long before the Civil Rights era you've mentioned, Asians were not allowed to own land in California.  Like in the early 50's..  They were thrown into internment camps by the tens of thousands during WW2.  25 years later they were earning more than most whites.  They surely were not treated similarly to Europeans, were they?

Nope.  Two things though: 

1. We didn't spend hundreds of years enslaving immigrants from Asia, much less dragging them here against their wills from their homelands. In fact, Asian immigrants came here primarily after the 13th Amendment, though there were a couple of decades of living in the free West first.  

2. We actually gave reparations to Asian descendants, and a formal apology from the government in 1988.  The first apology for slavery from the federal government came in 2008, and there have never been reparations granted.  While we had area-specific laws against immigrant ownership at times, we also haven't sugar-coated that history.  We don't pretend there was a system of "benevolent internment camps" and slide that into our social consciousness the way we do slavery, and we didn't have half the country try to secede because we offered to treat Asians as human beings.

Huge, huge difference.  One to two generations, followed by reparations and apology, vs. *gestures around wildly at Louisiana and Mississippi*

 

[Henry Ford]

Why?  The top killer for white males is car accidents.  Why is it that if you are a black male that's been murdered there is a 90+% chance that it was at the hands of another black male?  

Seems like you have some ideas.  Why do you think it is?

 

[unckeyherb]

Nope.  Two things though: 

1. We didn't spend hundreds of years enslaving immigrants from Asia, much less dragging them here against their wills from their homelands. In fact, Asian immigrants came here primarily after the 13th Amendment, though there were a couple of decades of living in the free West first.  

2. We actually gave reparations to Asian descendants, and a formal apology from the government in 1988.  The first apology for slavery from the federal government came in 2008, and there have never been reparations granted.  While we had area-specific laws against immigrant ownership at times, we also haven't sugar-coated that history.  We don't pretend there was a system of "benevolent internment camps" and slide that into our social consciousness the way we do slavery, and we didn't have half the country try to secede because we offered to treat Asians as human beings.

Huge, huge difference.  One to two generations, followed by reparations and apology, vs. *gestures around wildly at Louisiana and Mississippi*

Okay, so we ARE going back to slavery.  I thought you'd established a reasonable look back to the date that MLK was killed.  Regardless, Asians faced racism, bigotry and institutional set backs LAST century, right?  

 

[unckeyherb]

Seems like you have some ideas.  Why do you think it is?

I don't know.  Its your stat.  You explain it.

 

[jon_mx]

The imprisonment rate of African American men is about six times that of white men for drug offenses, despite similar rates of drug use.

Homicide is the #5 killer for black men - it isn't even in the top 10 for white men.

Those are a good start.

But it is black males killing black males.  That is not white previledge.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Okay, so we ARE going back to slavery.  I thought you'd established a reasonable look back to the date that MLK was killed.  Regardless, Asians faced racism, bigotry and institutional set backs LAST century, right?  

Me?  You brought up WW2.  I don't know if you remember, but MLK died about 23 years after WW2.  And the point was the 1988 reparations bill, which has no corollary with African Americans. But if you'd like to constrain the conversation to 1968 and after, that's fine.  Which institutional issues from that date on did you want to talk about with respect to Asians in our society?

 

[Henry Ford]

But it is black males killing black males.  That is not white privilege.  

Why not?

 

[KarmaPolice]

I don't have the #s.  Is it possible that black males break the law more often than white males ?

You can look at incarceration rates and length sentences of black males vs white males for similar crimes (ie the war on drugs), and see the disparity.  

ETA: I see HF posted a similar thing.

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't know.  Its your stat.  You explain it.

No, it's a stat from actual studies by social scientists.  It's not "my stat."  And I'm not in a deposition.  Do you have any thoughts?

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't have the #s.  Is it possible that black males break the law more often than white males ?

A large part of the incarceration rate is because of the crime rate.  We really don't seem to understand the root cause because none of the solutions are working very well.  

You can look at incarceration rates and length sentences of black males vs white males for similar crimes (ie the war on drugs), and see the disparity.  

ETA: I see HF posted a similar thing.

Yup.  At least with respect to drug crimes, an African American man is six times as likely to be incarcerated for a drug crime as a white man, despite similar rates of drug use.  And for the same offense, he will statistically get more time than the white man even if they both get sentenced to jail/prison.

 

[jon_mx]

Why not?

It is a tragedy within the black community.   Makes no sense to call it white previledge.

 

[unckeyherb]

Me?  You brought up WW2.  I don't know if you remember, but MLK died about 25 years after WW2.  And the point was the 1988 reparations bill, which has no corollary withe African Americans. But if you'd like to constrain the conversation to 1968 and after, that's fine.  Which institutional issues from that date on did you want to talk about with respect to Asians in our society?

Thanks for the history lesson.  My point is in response to your assertion that this country treated blacks horribly up to as recently as MLK's death, impacting potentially, the parents of current college students, or one generation removed.  I am pointing to internment during WW2 and Asian's socio-economic status 30 years later, or one generation removed.  

 

[Henry Ford]

It is a tragedy within the black community.   Makes no sense to call it white previledge.

Statistically, does an average white person have to deal with and expect it?

Statistically, does an average black person?

That's pretty decent shorthand for what white privilege is.

 

[unckeyherb]

No, it's a stat from actual studies by social scientists.  It's not "my stat."  And I'm not in a deposition.  Do you have any thoughts?

You posted the stat, is what I should have said.  And I know you aren't in a deposition.  But I asked first.

 

[unckeyherb]

Statistically, does an average white person have to deal with and expect it?

Statistically, does an average black person?

That's pretty decent shorthand for what white privilege is.

how about poor person?  Race be damned.

 

[Henry Ford]

Thanks for the history lesson.  My point is in response to your assertion that this country treated blacks horribly up to as recently as MLK's death, impacting potentially, the parents of current college students, or one generation removed.  I am pointing to internment during WW2 and Asian's socio-economic status 30 years later, or one generation removed.  

The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

 

[unckeyherb]

Yup.  At least with respect to drug crimes, an African American man is six times as likely to be incarcerated for a drug crime as a white man, despite similar rates of drug use.  And for the same offense, he will statistically get more time than the white man even if they both get sentenced to jail/prison.

Is this true?  Serious question.  I was under the impression that "drug crimes" is a sweeping generalization and that the reality is that mandatory minimum sentencing for crack possession, for instance, is far more egregious than standard cocaine.  Or am I wrong?

 

[jon_mx]

Statistically, does an average white person have to deal with and expect it?

Statistically, does an average black person?

That's pretty decent shorthand for what white privilege is.

Statistically drug crimes are only 16 percent of incarcerations and many of those were violent offenses plea bargained down.  The real issue is violence in black communities.   

 

[unckeyherb]

The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

And in just five years Japanese-Americans were earning more than Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Anglo-Americans, German-Americans.  

And Asians in general continue to earn more today.

 

[Henry Ford]

how about poor person?  Race be damned.

How about poor person?

Race tends to have a much more significant correlation with homicide rate than income, poverty rate, median income, etc.

 

[Henry Ford]

Is this true?  Serious question.  I was under the impression that "drug crimes" is a sweeping generalization and that the reality is that mandatory minimum sentencing for crack possession, for instance, is far more egregious than standard cocaine.  Or am I wrong?

You're right that crack possession is far more egregious a sentencing, but it's also true that sentences for the exact same crime get heavier for black men than white men, statistically.

 

[Henry Ford]

And in just five years Japanese-Americans were earning more than Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Anglo-Americans, German-Americans.  

I'd be interested in seeing the statistics, but it wouldn't shock me.  You're bringing over whole families who already have skills.

 

[Henry Ford]

Stattically drug crimes are only 16 percent of incarceration and many of those were violent offenses please bargained down.  The real issue is violence in black communities.   

A real issue is violence in black communities.  Somewhere around 1/3 of all working age non-incarcerated black men are ex-cons.  That's staggering.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Statistically drug crimes are only 16 percent of incarcerations and many of those were violent offenses plea bargained down.  The real issue is violence in black communities.   

The federal Bureau of Prisons reports this is 46%.

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp

typo?

 

[Henry Ford]

The federal Bureau of Prisons reports this is 46%.

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp

typo?

To be fair, those are only federal drug prisoners.

 

[BobbyLayne]

The federal Bureau of Prisons reports this is 46%.

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp

typo?

To be fair, those are only federal drug prisoners.

Sorry but I gotta bounce, have an event at 6:30.

Here's an interesting 538 article

 

[GROOT]

And in just five years Japanese-Americans were earning more than Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Anglo-Americans, German-Americans.  

And Asians in general continue to earn more today.

Asian Privilege

 

[the moops]

Statistically, does an average white person have to deal with and expect it?

Statistically, does an average black person?

That's pretty decent shorthand for what white privilege is.

It is excellent shorthand

 

[jonessed]

The federal Bureau of Prisons reports this is 46%.

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp

typo?

He’s including state prisons?

 

[timschochet]

Similarly, there was an aggressive anti-Jewish period where their "name" was placed next to the word "N" on signs warning them that they were unwelcome in certain public settings.   

But, then the data show that in spite of the prejudice, Jewish households have a median net worth of over $400,000 compared to the $99,500 for the US

I have studied the history of American Jews pretty extensively and I honestly have no idea what you’re referring to. Jews were quietly not allowed to own homes in certain wealthy areas or belong to Christian country clubs; they faced discrimination in some businesses and corporations. But the overt level of Jim Crow bigotry has never existed against Jews in this country. 

Also your $400,000 median income for Jews is complete BS- per Wikipedia, it’s around $150,000. I wonder if this isn’t some sort of crude anti-semitism on your part, since the rest of your post seems to be rooted in anti-black racism. 

 

[jonessed]

I have studied the history of American Jews pretty extensively and I honestly have no idea what you’re referring to. Jews were quietly not allowed to own homes in certain wealthy areas or belong to Christian country clubs; they faced discrimination in some businesses and corporations. But the overt level of Jim Crow bigotry has never existed against Jews in this country. 

Also your $400,000 median income for Jews is complete BS- per Wikipedia, it’s around $150,000. I wonder if this isn’t some sort of crude anti-semitism on your part, since the rest of your post seems to be rooted in anti-black racism. 

His post is neither anti-Semitic nor racist.

 

[Henry Ford]

I have studied the history of American Jews pretty extensively and I honestly have no idea what you’re referring to. Jews were quietly not allowed to own homes in certain wealthy areas or belong to Christian country clubs; they faced discrimination in some businesses and corporations. But the overt level of Jim Crow bigotry has never existed against Jews in this country. 

Also your $400,000 median income for Jews is complete BS- per Wikipedia, it’s around $150,000. I wonder if this isn’t some sort of crude anti-semitism on your part, since the rest of your post seems to be rooted in anti-black racism. 

I think it’s important to recognize that people can question outcomes and statistics and wonder what the possible reasons are - and even get things wrong - without being rampant anti-semites or racists.  It’s hard during current times to hold back and think “huh, maybe I can help him understand” but it’s crucial to start there instead of assuming the worst in my opinion.  I’m not always as generous in reading what people write as I’d like to be, but we should all try.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

But it is black males killing black males.  That is not white previledge.  

A black male might wake up in the morning and his first thoughts are about whether he's going to be shot by some guy from a block over.  A white make wakes up in the morning and his first thoughts are about what to have for breakfast.  That's a pretty big difference, right?  Which of those two people is going to have an easier time focusing on their education, building a good resume, establishing a professional network, and generally getting ahead in life?

In fact, not only is the white guy in this example playing his life on easy mode, but he faces a significantly different set of incentives.  A safe, stable environment encourages long-term investments like education and saving.  If you think you're likely to get killed or incarcerated anyway, why bother wasting time and resources on stuff like that?  So those environmental differences might also result in different group-level outcomes through rational decision making.

(We're obviously engaging in some statistical generalization here.  Not all black males live in south central LA, and not all white males live in rural Nebraska.  But it should be obvious and indisputable that, on average, the typical white guy lives in a safer environment and has a better family situation than the typical black guy.  And that clearly matters).