Tau837
Footballguy
The topic isn't a fantasy football related topic. We're talking NFL perspective here. Try to keep up.
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Who are your top 10 NFL Quarterbacks (in REALITY, not fantasy football (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ghost Rider
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Tau837
Footballguy
[sarcasm]He's better than Brees this year too[/sarcasm]I believe I'm the only other one who has posted here to rank Rivers above Manning.
Chase thinks so. I put Brees #1, Rivers #2. Do you want to contribute something to the discussion?To reiterate other post, Supe's matter to me. Amongst these 3, Manning has won more big games than Rivers and Brees maybe combined.[sarcasm]He's better than Brees this year too[/sarcasm]
Rivers, Brees, and Manning would be my top three, but I'm not sure in what order. They're all quite awesome.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
In that case, scratch fantasy football credentials and substitute man card.The topic isn't a fantasy football related topic. We're talking NFL perspective here. Try to keep up.Imagine that.
Isn't using Manning as an example someone who wins big games a bit ironic?He never won big games until he did -- same as everyone else. But we're not discussing the past in this thread; we're discussing the present. And I think Brees and Rivers have as good a chance to win some big games this post-season as Manning does.
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Tau837
Footballguy
The topic asked to rank the top QBs "right now." Winning the 2006-07 Super Bowl doesn't make Manning better right now.To reiterate other post, Supe's matter to me. Amongst these 3, Manning has won more big games than Rivers and Brees maybe combined.[sarcasm]He's better than Brees this year too[/sarcasm]
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Wouldn't put Rivers ahead of Manning in much of anything, but Rivers has demostrated enough in key games that the lack of a ring is a non-factor.
Tau837
Footballguy
In that case, scratch fantasy football credentials and substitute man card.The topic isn't a fantasy football related topic. We're talking NFL perspective here. Try to keep up.Imagine that.
Yes it does. It's quite well documented how inexperienced quarterbacks do poorly and (obviously) they do better with experience. In the "one win" scenario, the guy that has been there done that has to have an edge IMO.It doesn't mean any of the other non Supe winning QBs couldn't win but this is about choice and I want the one that's won it already
1. Saying Manning has won more big games than Rivers and Brees combined is kinda meaningless when he has PLAYED more games (189) than Rivers (65) and Brees (120) combined.2. Manning has also choked more big games than Rivers and Brees combined.SIX times he's gone to the playoff and come away with ZERO wins.Big Game Manning for sure3. It took P Manning 9 years to win a ring4. Head-to-Head - Rivers is 3-1 vs the Colts and has personally booted Manning from the playoffs 2 years running
All that 'experience' did squat for Manning the last 2 years in the playoffs
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but following this line of thinking Rivers will lose in the big game then go win one. Maybe it was how some in the media portrayed it but for some odd reason Manning I feel like Manning passed all these extra hard tests by defensive cooridinators, where they threw every trick they had at him and now he's seen it all and most importantly mastered it. No QB concerns me more. There's something very cerebral about Manning's game that I find fascinating-and frustrating if I'm rooting for the opposition.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Really? How well documented?I recall Brett Favre losing playoff games after he won a Super Bowl when the other QB was Mike Vick, Daunte Culpepper and Eli Manning. Or Tom Brady losing to Jake Plummer or Eli Manning. Or Ben Roethlisberger losing to David Garrard. Or Joe Montana choking against Wade Wilson. Or, uh, Manning lose to Philip Rivers.
list rookie QBs that have won the Superbowl
I assume your point is that once you won doesn't mean you automatically win again. I hear that it's a good point.This is a choice question and I want the one that has been successful in the big game. I'm much more comfy saying soandso led his team to a Superbowl victory as my rationale than I hope soandso can lead his team to a Superbowl victory. Yes two degrees of hope, one seems less risky.
I snipped some, albeit good points.I'd rather the guy with 189 games here and a ring on his finger. This is similar to other posts, not sure what else I can say that hasn't been said. Yes I want the experience.You also pointed out Rivers knocked Manning out of the playoffs the last two years.If that is an accomplishment then what does that mean you think of Manning? Did Rivers get a ring? Did it mean anything in the end? There's something contradictory here
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Rivers better than Peyton? Nah. No way. Rivers is great (I did rank him 4th), but let's be serious here. Aside from some Chargers fans and a stats nut like Chase, no one in their right mind would take Rivers over Manning. I don't put much stock into Rivers YPA being better than Manning's as a reason why he is better. Indy's running game is so inept, that Manning throws a ton of short passes that go for a lot of short gains that make up for their lack of a running game. SD's running game stinks, too, but the Chargers don't throw tons of short passes like the Colts do.
When Rivers can do what Manning does, basically being his own offensive coordinator, calling many of his own plays at the line, turning no-name wide receivers into playmakers on a consistent basis, and dictating what a defense does for pretty much an entire game, let me know. Not taking anything away from Rivers, who is a great QB in his own right, but I am not ready to call him better than Peyton Manning, much less the best in the league.
When Rivers can do what Manning does, basically being his own offensive coordinator, calling many of his own plays at the line, turning no-name wide receivers into playmakers on a consistent basis, and dictating what a defense does for pretty much an entire game, let me know. Not taking anything away from Rivers, who is a great QB in his own right, but I am not ready to call him better than Peyton Manning, much less the best in the league.
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FallenHero32
Footballguy
If you are gonna go with "how not bad rivers is" you also have to take into account how really really good the other QBs listed are.Passing Rating comes into play over the course of the season:Brees: 112.3Farve: 106.0Rivers: 103.7Rodgers: 102.5Manning: 98.9Big Ben: 98.2I think, given that, listing Rivers above Brees and Farve, not to mention Manning, would be not giving enough credit where credit is due. QB rating isn't everything, but you have to take that into account. Rivers also has the lowest completion percentage out of the QBs listed.
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BlackMagic10
Footballguy
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Philip Rivers
4. Brett Favre
5. Aaron Rodgers
6. Tom Brady
7. Ben Roethlisberger
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Kurt Warner
10. Tony Romo
2. Drew Brees
3. Philip Rivers
4. Brett Favre
5. Aaron Rodgers
6. Tom Brady
7. Ben Roethlisberger
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Kurt Warner
10. Tony Romo
I don't think you grasp the magnitude of the difference between the Colts and the Charger's running games.Colts average 3.8 yards and are ranked 12th in DVOA (4.4%)
Bolts average 3.2 yards and are ranked 30th in DVOA (-13.1%)
And why do you think that is?
He does change the play at the line quite frequently. Norv has often commented that Rivers knows his offense better than he does. They are very much in tune with one another
Vincent Jackson was a very raw 2nd round pick, Gates was undrafted (admittedly came into his own before Rivers), Floyd was undrafted, Naanee was a 5th round pick, Sproles was a 4th round pick *shrug*I must admit to being somewhat puzzled by this argument as Manning has had Marvin Harrison (1st round), Dallas Clark (1st round), Reggie Wayne (1st round) and Anthony Gonzalez (1st round)
What does that even mean? Rivers is clearly the primary focus of all defenses.In the realm of more quantifiable stats:
DVOA:
Rivers #1
Manning #5
Passer Rating:
Rivers 103.7
Manning 98.9
Lowest Rating This Year:
Rivers: 84.5
Manning: 65.6
TD%
Rivers: 5.4%
Manning: 5.8%
INT%
Rivers: 1.7%
Manning: 2.8%
ANY/A
Rivers: 8.3
Manning: 7.4
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That was specifically about 'who has the highest floor?'
I can see ranking Brees and Favre higher
Wait, what? You were using passer rating to justify Brees and Favre above Rivers. But when Rivers has a higher rating than Manning, "QB Rating isn't everything". So on what basis do you think Manning should be ranked higher?
That happens when you throw down the field a lot. The important thing is that his Y/A (and ANY/A) is very high (higher than Manning's by a full yard)
FallenHero32
Footballguy
I'm just saying that it should be a factor. Manning has over 500 attempts so far this season, and his passer rating is still up there in the top 5. He has more yards, a 68% completion, and is second in TDs behind Brees. I'm no manning fan, but I'm just giving credit where credit is due. That being said, I think Rivers is having an phenomenal season and he is higher then Brady/Big Ben in my book, perhaps on par with Manning, but not so far ahead of him it is clear cut (at least to me).
Tau837
Footballguy
You just refuted your own argument. The Colts have more rushing yards and a better ypc, with the same number of rushing TDs on fewer attempts. As you said yourself, the Chargers running game stinks. It is simply a philosophical difference in offensive playcalling... perhaps because Manning's strengths are a better fit for a short and intermediate passing game than a deep passing game, and Rivers is better suited for a deep passing game.
Some valid points here, but the bolded one is off base. Who was Vincent Jackson before Rivers? A no name WR. Who are Malcolm Floyd and Naanee? No name WRs. That is his current WR corps. And they are making plays on a consistent basis.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
It's been a long time that the stats nuts don't see Manning and put him on the top of the throne. Think of what that means when the argument for Manning is no longer that his stats dwarf (or are even better) than everyone else's. Now we're anointing Manning #1 based on intangibles.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
No, we're anointing Manning #1 based on common sense. Now if you and JWB want to use stats like ypa which had Jake Delhomme ranked as the 4th best QB last year, be my guest.It's been a long time that the stats nuts don't see Manning and put him on the top of the throne. Think of what that means when the argument for Manning is no longer that his stats dwarf (or are even better) than everyone else's. Now we're anointing Manning #1 based on intangibles.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
You took the words right out of my next post. I like Rivers, but no way he is better than Manning... or Brees
Tau837
Footballguy
It's not just ypa. How about ypc, ypa, ny/a, any/a, QB rating, interception percentage, and TD to interception ratio? Rivers is better than Manning in all of those statistics this year. Or from Football Outsiders, how about DVOA, which measures value per play? Rivers is #1 in the NFL, Manning is #5. The only rate statistics in which Manning is better this year are completion percentage, which is possibly explained by the different offensive philosophies; TD percentage; and (Football Outsiders) DYAR, which measures total value, meaning Manning is boosted by having 96 more passing attempts (roughly 25%).It's not like this is new. Rivers was better than Manning in ypc, ypa, ny/a, any/a, QB rating, TD percentage, and TD to interception ratio last year. Last year, Manning was #1 in DVOA, Rivers #2.Without looking I doubt you'll be able to find a similar example to your Delhomme ypa example to discount Rivers leading Manning in all those categories. But knock yourself out.That said, I fully understand why people would rank Peyton over Rivers. Manning has done it much longer and has a well deserved reputation as the best QB in the NFL. I personally think that Rivers is playing better, but I know that will be a minority position. I'm just glad Rivers is finally getting some level of the positive recognition he deserves.No, we're anointing Manning #1 based on common sense. Now if you and JWB want to use stats like ypa which had Jake Delhomme ranked as the 4th best QB last year, be my guest.It's been a long time that the stats nuts don't see Manning and put him on the top of the throne. Think of what that means when the argument for Manning is no longer that his stats dwarf (or are even better) than everyone else's. Now we're anointing Manning #1 based on intangibles.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
From an NFL standpoint...Id take Manning over Rivers any day of the week to run my team.Rivers is good, no doubt. But Manning does so much that I just don't think any other QB could actually handle.The topic isn't a fantasy football related topic. We're talking NFL perspective here. Try to keep up.Imagine that.Anyone who has Rivers ahead of Manning just needs to turn in their fantasy football credentials.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
anotherNo, we're anointing Manning #1 based on common sense. Now if you and JWB want to use stats like ypa which had Jake Delhomme ranked as the 4th best QB last year, be my guest.It's been a long time that the stats nuts don't see Manning and put him on the top of the throne. Think of what that means when the argument for Manning is no longer that his stats dwarf (or are even better) than everyone else's. Now we're anointing Manning #1 based on intangibles.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Last year's game.Peyton was 25 of 42 for 310 yards, 1 TD and 0 INTsRivers was 20 of 36 for 217 yards, 0 TD and 1 INTYear beforePeyton was 33 of 48 for 402 yards, 3TDs and 2 INTsRivers was 14 of 19 for 264 yards, 3 TDs and 1 INTthe game was won on a Billy Volek led drive and 1 yard TD run.
So you're saying it's a TEAM game?Then maybe the fact that a QB just happened to be on a SB winning TEAM doesn't mean that much in particular?It's funny how the arguments swing back and forth based on whichever happens to favor Manning at the moment.He's a better QB because he won a SB all by himselfBut when Rivers beats Manning, well he had help so it doesn't count.It all becomes clear.PS Rivers played better than Ben in their playoff game last year, but Ben won a SB, so . . .
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Yes, the Colts have more rushing yards than the Chargers this year...7 more rushing yards. BFD. And do you really think the deep passing game is not a strength of Manning's? Really?
Floyd and Naanee have combined for 49 catches this season. 49 catches in 13 games is averaging less than 4 catches a game between the two of 'em. And they have a combined 3 TD catches? That is making plays on a consistent basis? Meanwhile, Garcon and Collie, completely no-names before the season, heck, coming INTO the season, have combined for 95 catches and 10 touchdown catches. If you want to consider Wayne, Jackson, Clark and Gates all a wash, Manning has done much more this season with his no-name WRs than Rivers has with his, hence my earlier point.
And what about Chris Chambers? He couldn't do a thing with Rivers, yet he went to Kansas City and is doing well with Matt Cassel? I cannot imagine a WR ever being a number 2 or 3 with Manning, being cut mid-season, and then going somewhere else and immediately doing much better with a vastly inferior QB. 
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Who is playing better this year, Rivers or Manning?Who played better last year, Rivers or Manning?No, we're anointing Manning #1 based on common sense. Now if you and JWB want to use stats like ypa which had Jake Delhomme ranked as the 4th best QB last year, be my guest.It's been a long time that the stats nuts don't see Manning and put him on the top of the throne. Think of what that means when the argument for Manning is no longer that his stats dwarf (or are even better) than everyone else's. Now we're anointing Manning #1 based on intangibles.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I think the threat of Manning is what allows the Colts meager running game to do as well as it does; imagine if they actually had a RB who was good. Rivers is great, as I have said, but he doesn't scare the living crap out of a defense and opposing coaches like Manning does. Plus, the threat of Sproles out of the backfield is enough to scare a defense.
Because Rivers isn't as good as Manning (no one is) at constantly changing the play at the line to give himself a favorable matchup that allows for a relatively easy short throw and gain.
I don't doubt it. Regardless, he still isn't given as much responsibility and leeway out there as Manning is (again, no one is). Manning is basically like his own offensive coordinator out there.
Do I actually have to explain that? Have you ever watched Manning play QB in the NFL? Not trying to be a smartass, but really, if you watch Peyton Manning play the QB position, it should be blatantly obvious what I meant by that. Also, I addressed the no-name WR point in my reply to JWB just now.
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BassNBrew
Footballguy
It's not just ypa. How about ypc, ypa, ny/a, any/a, QB rating, TD percentage, interception percentage, and TD to interception ratio? Rivers is better than Manning in all of those statistics this year, and he was better in all of them last year, except interception percentage, in which Manning edged him 2.2% to 2.3%.Without looking I doubt you'll be able to find a similar example to your Delhomme ypa example to discount Rivers leading Manning in all those categories. But knock yourself out.That said, I fully understand why people would rank Peyton over Rivers. Manning has done it much longer and has a well deserved reputation as the best QB in the NFL. I personally think that Rivers is playing better, but I know that will be a minority position. I'm just glad Rivers is finally getting some level of the positive recognition he deserves.No, we're anointing Manning #1 based on common sense. Now if you and JWB want to use stats like ypa which had Jake Delhomme ranked as the 4th best QB last year, be my guest.It's been a long time that the stats nuts don't see Manning and put him on the top of the throne. Think of what that means when the argument for Manning is no longer that his stats dwarf (or are even better) than everyone else's. Now we're anointing Manning #1 based on intangibles.
Rivers is good and deserves to be in the conversation with Brees, Brady, and Manning. He's definately in a tier about Roth, Little manning, and Delhomme.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Manning has a better winning percentage. When was the last time he lost a regular season game? Rivers has a better defense and RBs assisting him. Manning plays in a tougher division. Manning has more responsibility for calling the winning plays.Manning is playing better.Who is playing better this year, Rivers or Manning?Who played better last year, Rivers or Manning?No, we're anointing Manning #1 based on common sense. Now if you and JWB want to use stats like ypa which had Jake Delhomme ranked as the 4th best QB last year, be my guest.It's been a long time that the stats nuts don't see Manning and put him on the top of the throne. Think of what that means when the argument for Manning is no longer that his stats dwarf (or are even better) than everyone else's. Now we're anointing Manning #1 based on intangibles.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Im saying it is a team game...but to say Rivers on his own just outplayed Manning in those two games is not quite accurate.I have not switched any argument here. Seems you are taking other people's arguments to try and make your point to backtrack from one you made yourself.Fact is...the Chargers beat the Colts in those 2 games. Rivers did not just outperform Manning individually at all.I say Manning is a better QB because I think he is a better passer, better thinker, and just all around a better leader.I think he does things at the QB position that no other player in the league could do right now and is actually close to proving to be the best QB in the history of the league.Something Rivers has not come close to doing.
Tau837
Footballguy
Agreed. Manning is great at that. To some degree, it could be OL. To some degree, it could also be that Manning throws a higher percentage of his passes short while Rivers throws deep more often... meaning Rivers has to wait longer for the patterns to develop. And to some degree this is just an area in which Manning is better than Rivers.ETA: ANY/A accounts for sacks and sack yardage, and Rivers is better than Manning in that metric by almost a full yard per attempt... a huge margin.
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Ok, so your definition of a 'playmaker' is 'better than Floyd'Well let's see, Floyd is on track for 638 yards this year.
How many times has Manning turned a 'no-name' receiver into a 'playmaker' (ie more than 638 yards)?
1998: Faulk, Harrison, Small (681)
1999: Harrison
2000: Harrison, Pathon (648)
2001: Harrison, Pollard (739)
2002: Harrison, Wayne
2003: Harrison, Wayne
2004: Wayne, Harrison, Stokely (1077)
2005: Harrison, Wayne
2006: Harrison, Wayne
2007: Wayne
2008: Wayne, Clark
So in ELEVEN years, he was only able to give FOUR 'no-name' receivers better seasons than Floyd (and 3 of them just barely)
Sorry, consistency not found.
Don't forget, your argument was on a consistent basis. One fluke year does not a consistent basis make
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Does no one else find it ironic that Manning's best arguments are team wins and Manning's opponents best arguments are his stats?Manning has a better winning percentage. When was the last time he lost a regular season game? Rivers has a better defense and RBs assisting him. Manning plays in a tougher division. Manning has more responsibility for calling the winning plays.Manning is playing better.Who is playing better this year, Rivers or Manning?Who played better last year, Rivers or Manning?No, we're anointing Manning #1 based on common sense. Now if you and JWB want to use stats like ypa which had Jake Delhomme ranked as the 4th best QB last year, be my guest.It's been a long time that the stats nuts don't see Manning and put him on the top of the throne. Think of what that means when the argument for Manning is no longer that his stats dwarf (or are even better) than everyone else's. Now we're anointing Manning #1 based on intangibles.
This my friends is what we call denial.
Have you conducted a poll recently?
So Rivers can't make the short throws (which are more difficult), and is thus forced to make the 'easy' deep throwWow, just Wow
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Tau837
Footballguy
Since this thread is about "right now", consider that on passes thrown 31+ yards downfield this season, Manning is 5/22 for 226 yards, 2 TDs, and 3 interceptions. Last year, he was 7/28 for 363 yards, 3 TDs, and 4 interceptions. Collectively, that is a QB rating of 46.2 on those throws. He was better in the seasons before that, but it is at least possible that this is an area of his game that has declined in recent years.Meanwhile, Rivers is 11/27 for 520 yards, 1 TD, and 1 interception this year on passes thrown 31+ yards downfield this season (though the ESPN splits where I obtained this data shorts Rivers by a TD in these distance splits, so he might really have 2 TDs... not sure where the missing TD fits in). Last year, he was 10/24 for 465 yards, 4 TDs, and 1 interception on such throws. Collectively, that is a QB rating of 133.2 on those throws according to the FBG tool.As I said, this appears to *currently* not be a strength for Manning and does appear to be a strength for Rivers.As for the rushing yards statement, it is a BFD, because the Chargers have 15% more rushing attempts yet have 7 fewer yards.Might want to check again.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/BQFoM
Rivers and Brees are well ahead of the pack in NY/A over the past two seasons.
Rivers and Brees are well ahead of the pack in NY/A over the past two seasons.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Never said that. Please stop putting words in my mouth. TIA.
Never said that. Please stop putting words in my mouth. TIA.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
You willing to include '09' and/or match that with WR stats under Rivers?
It is ironic.
