Who are your top 10 NFL Quarterbacks (in REALITY, not fantasy football (2 Viewers)

[Ghost Rider]

I don't put much stock into Rivers YPA being better than Manning's as a reason why he is better. Indy's running game is so inept, that Manning throws a ton of short passes that go for a lot of short gains that make up for their lack of a running game. SD's running game stinks, too, but the Chargers don't throw tons of short passes like the Colts do.

You just refuted your own argument. The Colts have more rushing yards and a better ypc, with the same number of rushing TDs on fewer attempts. As you said yourself, the Chargers running game stinks. It is simply a philosophical difference in offensive playcalling... perhaps because Manning's strengths are a better fit for a short and intermediate passing game than a deep passing game, and Rivers is better suited for a deep passing game.

Yes, the Colts have more rushing yards than the Chargers this year...7 more rushing yards. BFD. And do you really think the deep passing game is not a strength of Manning's? Really?

Since this thread is about "right now", consider that on passes thrown 31+ yards downfield this season, Manning is 5/22 for 226 yards, 2 TDs, and 3 interceptions. Last year, he was 7/28 for 363 yards, 3 TDs, and 4 interceptions. Collectively, that is a QB rating of 46.2 on those throws. He was better in the seasons before that, but it is at least possible that this is an area of his game that has declined in recent years.Meanwhile, Rivers is 11/27 for 520 yards, 1 TD, and 1 interception this year on passes thrown 31+ yards downfield this season (though the ESPN splits where I obtained this data shorts Rivers by a TD in these distance splits, so he might really have 2 TDs... not sure where the missing TD fits in). Last year, he was 10/24 for 465 yards, 4 TDs, and 1 interception on such throws. Collectively, that is a QB rating of 133.2 on those throws according to the FBG tool.As I said, this appears to *currently* not be a strength for Manning and does appear to be a strength for Rivers.As for the rushing yards statement, it is a BFD, because the Chargers have 15% more rushing attempts yet have 7 fewer yards.

Interesting numbers, but why is 31 yards the cutoff? Why not 24? Or 38? Or 29? And if the Chargers can't get more rushing yards despite having that many more rushing attempts, then maybe that says something about Rivers not instilling enough fear in defenses to where they loosen up giving SD's RBs more room to run. Maybe? Like I said, Rivers is certainly a great QB, and definitely underrated by a lot of people, but I just don't think he is top 3...yet. But he is getting there.

 

[craxie]

Ok, so your definition of a 'playmaker' is 'better than Floyd'

Never said that. Please stop putting words in my mouth. TIA.

Using whatever definition you desire, list all the 'no-names' Manning made into 'playmakers' before this year

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Does no one else find it ironic that Manning's best arguments are team wins and Manning's opponents best arguments are his stats?

It is ironic.

Is it Ironic that anyone would measure the true success in the NFL with a W/L percentage? Is there any doubt that Manning is a huge contributor to the success of a very strong, winning team?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Ok, so your definition of a 'playmaker' is 'better than Floyd'

Never said that. Please stop putting words in my mouth. TIA.

Using whatever definition you desire, list all the 'no-names' Manning made into 'playmakers' before this year

How about you list what no-names Rivers has EVER turned into consistent playmakers? Has Rivers ever done what Manning has done this year with both Garcon and Collie? I'll help you out...the answer is no.

 

[craxie]

How about you list what no-names Rivers has EVER turned into consistent playmakers?

Smooth move changing your criteria after you got called on it

 

[craxie]

Does no one else find it ironic that Manning's best arguments are team wins and Manning's opponents best arguments are his stats?

It is ironic.

Is it Ironic that anyone would measure the true success in the NFL with a W/L percentage?

I guess you weren't around for all the Manning/Brady debates. The irony is that back then all the Manning supporters relied on stats to show he was the better QB while the Brady supporters pointed to his rings.Now that Rivers has better stats, suddenly stats aren't so important and the ring (singular) is all that matters

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Does no one else find it ironic that Manning's best arguments are team wins and Manning's opponents best arguments are his stats?

It is ironic.

Is it Ironic that anyone would measure the true success in the NFL with a W/L percentage?

I guess you weren't around for all the Manning/Brady debates. The irony is that back then all the Manning supporters relied on stats to show he was the better QB while the Brady supporters pointed to his rings.Now that Rivers has better stats, suddenly stats aren't so important and the ring (singular) is all that matters

Ring? I don't remember mentioning rings. 1 game, the SB is important indeed. But can't be used as the end all of a players ability... It's the average... The W/L percentage... Manning is consistently the better QB, because he wins more.

 

[Tau837]

I don't put much stock into Rivers YPA being better than Manning's as a reason why he is better. Indy's running game is so inept, that Manning throws a ton of short passes that go for a lot of short gains that make up for their lack of a running game. SD's running game stinks, too, but the Chargers don't throw tons of short passes like the Colts do.

You just refuted your own argument. The Colts have more rushing yards and a better ypc, with the same number of rushing TDs on fewer attempts. As you said yourself, the Chargers running game stinks. It is simply a philosophical difference in offensive playcalling... perhaps because Manning's strengths are a better fit for a short and intermediate passing game than a deep passing game, and Rivers is better suited for a deep passing game.

Yes, the Colts have more rushing yards than the Chargers this year...7 more rushing yards. BFD. And do you really think the deep passing game is not a strength of Manning's? Really?

Since this thread is about "right now", consider that on passes thrown 31+ yards downfield this season, Manning is 5/22 for 226 yards, 2 TDs, and 3 interceptions. Last year, he was 7/28 for 363 yards, 3 TDs, and 4 interceptions. Collectively, that is a QB rating of 46.2 on those throws. He was better in the seasons before that, but it is at least possible that this is an area of his game that has declined in recent years.

Meanwhile, Rivers is 11/27 for 520 yards, 1 TD, and 1 interception this year on passes thrown 31+ yards downfield this season (though the ESPN splits where I obtained this data shorts Rivers by a TD in these distance splits, so he might really have 2 TDs... not sure where the missing TD fits in). Last year, he was 10/24 for 465 yards, 4 TDs, and 1 interception on such throws. Collectively, that is a QB rating of 133.2 on those throws according to the FBG tool.

As I said, this appears to *currently* not be a strength for Manning and does appear to be a strength for Rivers.

As for the rushing yards statement, it is a BFD, because the Chargers have 15% more rushing attempts yet have 7 fewer yards.

Interesting numbers, but why is 31 yards the cutoff? Why not 24? Or 38? Or 29? And if the Chargers can't get more rushing yards despite having that many more rushing attempts, then maybe that says something about Rivers not instilling enough fear in defenses to where they loosen up giving SD's RBs more room to run. Maybe?

Like I said, Rivers is certainly a great QB, and definitely underrated by a lot of people, but I just don't think he is top 3...yet. But he is getting there.

31 is the cutoff because ESPN splits into these tiers: Behind the Line, 1-10 yards downfield, 11-20 yards downfield, 21-30 yards downfield, 31-40 yards downfield, and 41+ yards downfield, and IMO 21-30 yards (or less) is not "deep." And none of this accounts for pass interference penalties drawn on deep throws, which wouldn't show up in these splits... without looking, I'd be willing to bet that San Diego has drawn more PI calls deep downfield, and probably by a large margin.Look, it is reasonable to think Manning is a better QB than Rivers, even though I don't think so. But you really cannot argue the fact that throwing deep is currently a strength for Rivers and isn't for Manning. This is a case where the numbers don't lie, and it's backed up by watching the games. You can concede this point without agreeing that Rivers is currently better than Manning.

 

[Tau837]

Does no one else find it ironic that Manning's best arguments are team wins and Manning's opponents best arguments are his stats?

It is ironic.

Is it Ironic that anyone would measure the true success in the NFL with a W/L percentage?

I guess you weren't around for all the Manning/Brady debates. The irony is that back then all the Manning supporters relied on stats to show he was the better QB while the Brady supporters pointed to his rings.Now that Rivers has better stats, suddenly stats aren't so important and the ring (singular) is all that matters

Ring? I don't remember mentioning rings. 1 game, the SB is important indeed. But can't be used as the end all of a players ability... It's the average... The W/L percentage... Manning is consistently the better QB, because he wins more.

Rivers has a higher career winning percentage than Manning in both the regular season and the postseason. And he is 3-1 head to head against Manning. So is winning what you really want to go with here?Granted, the topic is about "right now", and this season Manning obviously has a better winning percentage. But I can't tell if you're talking about "right now" or career-wise. It seems most arguing Manning's side are doing so based on the weight of his accomplishments to date, in which case winning favors Rivers.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Look, it is reasonable to think Manning is a better QB than Rivers, even though I don't think so. But you really cannot argue the fact that throwing deep is currently a strength for Rivers and isn't for Manning. This is a case where the numbers don't lie, and it's backed up by watching the games. You can concede this point without agreeing that Rivers is currently better than Manning.

Are a larger percentage of Rivers throws are down field then Manning's. Might that be more out of necessity? Due to some deficiency in the short yardage game?A 10-20 yard pass is the bread and butter of an offenses passing game. If you can't get that done on a consistent basis you're going to lose games

 

[dgreen]

Rivers has a higher career winning percentage than Manning in both the regular season and the postseason. And he is 3-1 head to head against Manning. So is winning what you really want to go with here?Granted, the topic is about "right now", and this season Manning obviously has a better winning percentage. But I can't tell if you're talking about "right now" or career-wise. It seems most arguing Manning's side are doing so based on the weight of his accomplishments to date, in which case winning favors Rivers.

Rivers stepped into a slightly better situation. Still, if you remove Manning's first season (3-13), his next four weren't quite as good as Rivers these past four years. But, Manning's 7 straight season's with at least 12 wins is extremely impressive. Barring an 18-game season, Rivers will have a tough time doing that.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Rivers has a higher career winning percentage than Manning in both the regular season and the postseason. And he is 3-1 head to head against Manning. So is winning what you really want to go with here?Granted, the topic is about "right now", and this season Manning obviously has a better winning percentage. But I can't tell if you're talking about "right now" or career-wise. It seems most arguing Manning's side are doing so based on the weight of his accomplishments to date, in which case winning favors Rivers.

Obviously if Rivers sat on the bench for his first 2 seasons, you'd have to throw out Mannings first 2 seasons as well... I haven't done the #'s but I find it very unlikely that considering the rookie season factor, Manning wouldn't be on top.But like you said... We're talking "Currently"

 

[craxie]

Are a larger percentage of Rivers throws are down field then Manning's. Might that be more out of necessity? Due to some deficiency in the short yardage game?

It's just hilarious the people trying to paint a strong deep game as a weakness.Talk about streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetching

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Are a larger percentage of Rivers throws are down field then Manning's. Might that be more out of necessity? Due to some deficiency in the short yardage game?

It's just hilarious the people trying to paint a strong deep game as a weakness.Talk about streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetching

Did I say his deep game was a weekness? Or am I saying that Manning manages the field better leaving him less need to go deep?

 

[Tau837]

Look, it is reasonable to think Manning is a better QB than Rivers, even though I don't think so. But you really cannot argue the fact that throwing deep is currently a strength for Rivers and isn't for Manning. This is a case where the numbers don't lie, and it's backed up by watching the games. You can concede this point without agreeing that Rivers is currently better than Manning.

Are a larger percentage of Rivers throws are down field then Manning's. Might that be more out of necessity? Due to some deficiency in the short yardage game?A 10-20 yard pass is the bread and butter of an offenses passing game. If you can't get that done on a consistent basis you're going to lose games

Yes, a larger percentage of Rivers' throws are deep than Manning's. It's because he is a great deep passer, so they call the offense to suit his strengths. Rivers is very good at 10-20 yards and every other split. You people are killing me. It's like no one is willing to admit that Rivers does anything... any single thing... better than Manning.

 

[jonessed]

Alright guys, I know you are getting open deep, but we want to manage the game here. Let's throw it short and cross our fingers on 3rd down conversions. Otherwise, we run the risk of stretching the field and scoring lots of points.

 

[craxie]

Obviously if Rivers sat on the bench for his first 2 seasons, you'd have to throw out Mannings first 2 seasons as well... I haven't done the #'s but I find it very unlikely that considering the rookie season factor, Manning wouldn't be on top.

Years 3-7Manning: 38-26Rivers: 43-18 (with 3 to play)

Did I say his deep game was a weekness? Or am I saying that Manning manages the field better leaving him less need to go deep?

g r a s p i n g at strawsHave you watched Rivers play this year?Rivers doesn't go deep because he has to, Rivers goes deep because he can.

 

[craxie]

Alright guys, I know you are getting open deep, but we want to manage the game here. Let's throw it short and cross our fingers on 3rd down conversions. Otherwise, we run the risk of stretching the field and scoring lots of points.

 

[dgreen]

Rivers doesn't go deep because he has to, Rivers goes deep because he can.

He throws a beautiful deep ball. Of course, all his receivers are 7 feet tall, so he's got that going for him.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Obviously if Rivers sat on the bench for his first 2 seasons, you'd have to throw out Mannings first 2 seasons as well... I haven't done the #'s but I find it very unlikely that considering the rookie season factor, Manning wouldn't be on top.

Years 3-7Manning: 38-26Rivers: 43-18 (with 3 to play)

Did I say his deep game was a weekness? Or am I saying that Manning manages the field better leaving him less need to go deep?

g r a s p i n g at strawsHave you watched Rivers play this year?Rivers doesn't go deep because he has to, Rivers goes deep because he can.

Sorry my friend but the way you keep trying to twist what everyone says and miss quoting the point = "Grasping at straws"And I didn't say years 3-7.. I said total winning percentage excluding the first and most volatile years. For Which Rivers had the luxury of sitting on the bench.. Besides, how are you not going to count Manning current year production in a thread taking about who is "currently" the better QB... If you're only going to count 4 years in a thread stipulating "Current" should be looking at 06, 07, 08, 09 right?You'll twist anything won't you. I'm starting to think you're just fishing...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Alright guys, I know you are getting open deep, but we want to manage the game here. Let's throw it short and cross our fingers on 3rd down conversions. Otherwise, we run the risk of stretching the field and scoring lots of points.

How often does a 10-20 yard completion result in a 3rd down? LOLFor all the greatness that is Rivers' ability to throw deep. And how much better that is than Manning's General Field management, you'd figure Rivers would have more wins and more touchdowns.... hmmm... Go figure...

 

[BassNBrew]

Look, it is reasonable to think Manning is a better QB than Rivers, even though I don't think so. But you really cannot argue the fact that throwing deep is currently a strength for Rivers and isn't for Manning. This is a case where the numbers don't lie, and it's backed up by watching the games. You can concede this point without agreeing that Rivers is currently better than Manning.

Are a larger percentage of Rivers throws are down field then Manning's. Might that be more out of necessity? Due to some deficiency in the short yardage game?A 10-20 yard pass is the bread and butter of an offenses passing game. If you can't get that done on a consistent basis you're going to lose games

Yes, a larger percentage of Rivers' throws are deep than Manning's. It's because he is a great deep passer, so they call the offense to suit his strengths. Rivers is very good at 10-20 yards and every other split. You people are killing me. It's like no one is willing to admit that Rivers does anything... any single thing... better than Manning.

Rivers' beats more AFC West teams each year than Manning. Believe he has more TD passes against them too.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

BTW,

I'm a Rivers Fan. He's a great QB and some day maybe he'll have had a greater career then Manning. My arguments are directed at those who are trying to rank him ahead of Manning. And someone ranked him #1 QB over all? LOL

Solid Top five, flirting with top 3.... #1? sorry...

 

[Ghost Rider]

31 is the cutoff because ESPN splits into these tiers: Behind the Line, 1-10 yards downfield, 11-20 yards downfield, 21-30 yards downfield, 31-40 yards downfield, and 41+ yards downfield, and IMO 21-30 yards (or less) is not "deep." And none of this accounts for pass interference penalties drawn on deep throws, which wouldn't show up in these splits... without looking, I'd be willing to bet that San Diego has drawn more PI calls deep downfield, and probably by a large margin.

Look, it is reasonable to think Manning is a better QB than Rivers, even though I don't think so. But you really cannot argue the fact that throwing deep is currently a strength for Rivers and isn't for Manning. This is a case where the numbers don't lie, and it's backed up by watching the games. You can concede this point without agreeing that Rivers is currently better than Manning.

Well, if Rivers is having more success with the deep pass than Manning this year, then okay, I'll give him that one, but yeah, Peyton is still the better QB. Should I assume you not responding to the other points that I refuted was your way of conceding? If so, we are even. Either way, good discussion we are having here. I love a spirited discussion about things like this.

Obviously if Rivers sat on the bench for his first 2 seasons, you'd have to throw out Mannings first 2 seasons as well... I haven't done the #'s but I find it very unlikely that considering the rookie season factor, Manning wouldn't be on top.

Years 3-7Manning: 38-26

Rivers: 43-18 (with 3 to play)

Did I say his deep game was a weekness? Or am I saying that Manning manages the field better leaving him less need to go deep?

g r a s p i n g at strawsHave you watched Rivers play this year?

Rivers doesn't go deep because he has to, Rivers goes deep because he can.

Sorry my friend but the way you keep trying to twist what everyone says and miss quoting the point = "Grasping at straws"

And I didn't say years 3-7.. I said total winning percentage excluding the first and most volatile years. For Which Rivers had the luxury of sitting on the bench.. Besides, how are you not going to count Manning current year production in a thread taking about who is "currently" the better QB... If you're only going to count 4 years in a thread stipulating "Current" should be looking at 06, 07, 08, 09 right?

You'll twist anything won't you. I'm starting to think you're just fishing...

It is impossible to have a good discussion with someone who is constantly twisting your words. Perhaps he is really a she.

 

[spider321]

1. Peyton

2. Brees

3. Rivers

4. Brady

5. Favre

6. Schaub

7. Rodgers

8. Roethlisberger

9. McNabb

10. Warner

 

[craxie]

And I didn't say years 3-7

Of course not, you wouldn't want a fair comparisonThe stats don't support Manning, so you have to go for winsWhen it's pointed out that Rivers has a better winning %, you decide to selectively throw out yearsIf you want to ignore years 1-2, looking at just 3-7 is perfectly valid and fair . . . which defeats the pointAgain your best argument is his winning % THIS year is better.But that's the only argument you can make, and a weak one at that considering how much better his defense and running game are

And how much better that is than Manning's General Field management, you'd figure Rivers would have more wins and more touchdowns.... hmmm... Go figure...

If you want to argue that Manning is better b/c of 3 more wins with a vastly superior running game and defense, knock yourself outTD passes? Manning is 0.4% better in TD passes, but 1.1% worse in INTs. You realize Manning has twice as many INTs? How does that rate in General Field management?Also if you watched Charger's games, you would know they force-feed LT at the goalline, even when he isn't effective.

 

[Tau837]

I checked, and it appears the Chargers have drawn 8 defensive PI penalties for a total of 147 yards. Only 2 were more than 30 yards, one for 34 and another for 38. Two others were 26 and 29 yards. The rest were on short stuff. Not as many as I expected.

 

[2ksports]

Brady 2 years ago

Peyton this year

Brees this year

Brett Favre 50 years ago

Schaub next year

Jason Cambell 50 years from now

Nate Robinson

Charlie Ward

Chris Johnson

Ronnie Brown 2 months ago

 

[Carolina Hustler]

When it's pointed out that Rivers has a better winning %, you decide to selectively throw out years

If you want to ignore years 1-2, looking at just 3-7 is perfectly valid and fair . . . which defeats the point

Again your best argument is his winning % THIS year is better.

We're arguing who currently is the better QB. Manning Currently has a better W/L %

But that's the only argument you can make, and a weak one at that considering how much better his defense and running game are

If you want to argue that Manning is better b/c of 3 more wins with a vastly superior running game and defense, knock yourself out

LOLRidiculous, The Colts running game is only as good as it is because of Manning and even with that they are 30th in total rushing yards with San Diego at 31st (1144 total rushing yards for Indy, 1137 total rushing yards for SD) 7 yards difference!?!?

DEF? Colts def allows on average, 337 yards and 16.8 pts per game and the Chargers averaged 324 yards and 19.9 pts per game. Not a huge difference there. San Diego's def is actually ranked higher than Indys when looking at the Def rankings I've looked at. And if you're talking fantasy points, they're relatively equal there as well. So yet again, another argument fail on your part.

Vastly? WOW.... ok... guess I will knock myself out then...

TD passes? Manning is 0.4% better in TD passes, but 1.1% worse in INTs. You realize Manning has twice as many INTs? How does that rate in General Field management?

Also if you watched Charger's games, you would know they force-feed LT at the goalline, even when he isn't effective.

TD's: Manning 29 - Rivers 22'09' Wins: Manning 13 - Rivers 10

passing yards: Manning 3905 - Rivers 3583

Pass completions: Manning 342/502 - Rivers 263/406

Int: Manning 14 - Rivers 7

The only thing you've gotten right so far is the Int ratio... And honestly, I'll take the Wins, Yards, TD, and Comp % over a poxy INT % any day...

As I've said, Rivers is a good QB, top 3-5 I'd say... Better than Manning? No....

 

[craxie]

We're arguing who currently is the better QB. Manning Currently has a better W/L %

for 2009 yesfor his career no

if you want to hang your hat on wins this year with a far better team, be my guest

But that's the only argument you can make, and a weak one at that considering how much better his defense and running game are

If you want to argue that Manning is better b/c of 3 more wins with a vastly superior running game and defense, knock yourself out

LOLRidiculous, The Colts running game is only as good as it is because of Manning and even with that they are 30th in total rushing yards with San Diego at 31st (1144 total rushing yards for Indy, 1137 total rushing yards for SD) 7 yards difference!?!?

come on, even you know better than thatit's not total yards, it's how effective they are when they do rush

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff

Rush Offense

IND: 11th (4.6%)

SDG: 30th (-13.7%)

DEF? Colts def allows on average, 337 yards and 16.8 pts per game and the Chargers averaged 324 yards and 19.9 pts per game. Not a huge difference there. San Diego's def is actually ranked higher than Indys when looking at the Def rankings I've looked at. And if you're talking fantasy points, they're relatively equal there as well. So yet again, another argument fail on your part.

again let's not play naivehttp://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

Defense

IND: 8th (-4.7%)

SDG: 25th (10.8%)

coincidentally, some interesting commentary on the subject:

http://footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/...14-dvoa-ratings

Part of the problem is that the entire team is being dragged along by Philip Rivers and his running buddies, Antonio Gates and Vincent Jackson. We see how great those guys are, and maybe we forget just how ordinary the rest of the team has been this year. The Chargers are below-average on defense and special teams, and their running game is horrid.. LaDainian Tomlinson's bust in Canton is already sculpted and sitting in a closet waiting for use, but at this point the guy is so toast that actual toast is considering a lawsuit for libel.

 

[Bri]

When Rivers can do what Manning does, basically being his own offensive coordinator, calling many of his own plays at the line, turning no-name wide receivers into playmakers on a consistent basis, and dictating what a defense does for pretty much an entire game, let me know.

Some valid points here, but the bolded one is off base. Who was Vincent Jackson before Rivers? A no name WR. Who are Malcolm Floyd and Naanee? No name WRs. That is his current WR corps. And they are making plays on a consistent basis.

Floyd and Naanee have combined for 49 catches this season. 49 catches in 13 games is averaging less than 4 catches a game between the two of 'em. And they have a combined 3 TD catches? That is making plays on a consistent basis?

Ok, so your definition of a 'playmaker' is 'better than Floyd'Well let's see, Floyd is on track for 638 yards this year.

How many times has Manning turned a 'no-name' receiver into a 'playmaker' (ie more than 638 yards)?

1998: Faulk, Harrison, Small (681)

1999: Harrison

2000: Harrison, Pathon (648)

2001: Harrison, Pollard (739)

2002: Harrison, Wayne

2003: Harrison, Wayne

2004: Wayne, Harrison, Stokely (1077)

2005: Harrison, Wayne

2006: Harrison, Wayne

2007: Wayne

2008: Wayne, Clark

So in ELEVEN years, he was only able to give FOUR 'no-name' receivers better seasons than Floyd (and 3 of them just barely)

Sorry, consistency not found.

Don't forget, your argument was on a consistent basis. One fluke year does not a consistent basis make

Sooo just ignore the awesome WRs because...well Rivers has 1 or 2 awesome WRs in Harrison(prime) or Wayne's range right? Wow what a reach

 

[Bri]

You also pointed out Rivers knocked Manning out of the playoffs the last two years.

If that is an accomplishment then what does that mean you think of Manning?

It means I think Rivers has done better than Manning in 'big games' that last 2 years running

Did it mean anything in the end?

It means your argument for why Manning is the better choice RIGHT NOW has fallen and can't get up.

Need images?http://bit.ly/6Fqiz5

 

[craxie]

Sooo just ignore the awesome WRs because...well Rivers has 1 or 2 awesome WRs in Harrison(prime) or Wayne's range right? Wow what a reach

No, you missed what the discussion was about.He was claiming that Manning was better because he CONSISTENTLY turned no-names into playmakersI was curious as to which 'no-names' he had in mind.Using a VERY generous definition, i found 4 in 11 years, hardly evidence of consistency.It had nothing to do with the quality of Manning's or Rivers' top receivers

Need images?

That was almost 4 years ago. What does that have to do with right now?If winning a SB suddenly transforms a QB into a transcendent being that is beyond mere mortal QBs, why has he been smacked by Rivers in the playoffs two years running?Manning might have been better in 2006, but since then . . . Playoff wins:Rivers - 3Manning - 0

 

[Donnybrook]

Sooo just ignore the awesome WRs because...well Rivers has 1 or 2 awesome WRs in Harrison(prime) or Wayne's range right? Wow what a reach

No, you missed what the discussion was about.He was claiming that Manning was better because he CONSISTENTLY turned no-names into playmakers

I was curious as to which 'no-names' he had in mind.

Using a VERY generous definition, i found 4 in 11 years, hardly evidence of consistency.

It had nothing to do with the quality of Manning's or Rivers' top receivers

Need images?

That was almost 4 years ago. What does that have to do with right now?If winning a SB suddenly transforms a QB into a transcendent being that is beyond mere mortal QBs, why has he been smacked by Rivers in the playoffs two years running?

Manning might have been better in 2006, but since then . . .

Playoff wins:

Rivers - 3

Manning - 0

Is it me or are the River's fan club exaggerating a wee bit?2007 season – Chargers won after Billy Volek led them on a 78 yard game winning drive.

2008 season – Chargers beat Indy after winning the coin toss in overtime. Sproles runs it in from the 20 in OT. I, for one, thought that Indy would have drove the field if they won the toss. Not sure when the third San Diego playoff win took place.

 

[Bri]

If winning a SB suddenly transforms a QB into a transcendent being that is beyond mere mortal QBs, why has he been smacked by Rivers in the playoffs two years running?

pretty sure you answered your own extreme Q but....Marino never won a supe and heard of it for...well he still hears about it. Elway lost 3? 4? before he won and heard about it for a long time as well. There is a significant value in having already accompished something than wondering why you haven't, what it takes to get there etc.(Along with this it's only about one not about the team line of thinking prevalent in this thread) Rivers...well let's put it this way, he's .500 in the playoffs and when he got to the biggest game in his career(AFCC) he only completed around 50% (14% less than normal) had no TDs and two interceptions. In the very same game, Brady (the model QB?) also played poorly but found a way to overcome it completing 66% and throwing for 2 TDs in addition to his 3 INTs.He'll learn in time but I'm going with a guy that has already learned that lesson.In 06, he struggled vs Pats less than 50% no TDs and one INTIn 08, they had no running game. Tomlinson was out and Sproles had 15 yards rushing. He had a late 62 yard TD reception that pads the stats from the game for him. They had no running game and Rivers did play well but (like Marino) they lost to the Steelers.He'll learn in time but I'm going with a guy that has already learned that lesson.

 

[craxie]

Is it me or are the River's fan club exaggerating a wee bit?2007 season – Chargers won after Billy Volek led them on a 78 yard game winning drive.

After Rivers' 133 rating performance put them in a position to win

2008 season – Chargers beat Indy after winning the coin toss in overtime. Sproles runs it in from the 20 in OT. I, for one, thought that Indy would have drove the field if they won the toss.

A truly transcendent QB wouldn't have let it get to OT in the first place

Not sure when the third San Diego playoff win took place.

Titans the week before

 

[craxie]

There is a significant value in having already accompished something than wondering why you haven't, what it takes to get there etc.

PerhapsBut apparently not enough value to keep Rivers from kicking him out of the playoffs 2 years running

he's .500 in the playoffs

which is better than Manning's .467

and when he got to the biggest game in his career(AFCC) he only completed around 50% (14% less than normal) had no TDs and two interceptions.In the very same game, Brady (the model QB?) also played poorly but found a way to overcome it completing 66% and throwing for 2 TDs in addition to his 3 INTs

You mean the game that came a week after he tore his ACL, had emergency surgery during the week and came back and played?The game where LT was injured and basically out?The game where his top receiving threat (Gates) was injured and a shell of his former self?That's the game you want to point to to prove that Manning is better than Rivers?

 

[Donnybrook]

Is it me or are the River's fan club exaggerating a wee bit?

2007 season – Chargers won after Billy Volek led them on a 78 yard game winning drive.

After Rivers' 133 rating performance put them in a position to win

2008 season – Chargers beat Indy after winning the coin toss in overtime. Sproles runs it in from the 20 in OT. I, for one, thought that Indy would have drove the field if they won the toss.

1) A truly transcendent QB wouldn't have let it get to OT in the first place

Not sure when the third San Diego playoff win took place.

2) Titans the week before

1) How does this apply to Peyton but not to Rivers? Both teams went to OT.2) Huh? When did San Diego beat the Colts for the 3rd time in the playoffs?

These games were very close. I don't think that your evidence is very impressive.

 

[craxie]

1) How does this apply to Peyton but not to Rivers? Both teams went to OT.

The argument is that Manning is better currently because he got a ring 3 years ago.My point is that there is very little evidence that getting a ring has had ANY benefit for Manning.In fact he's winless in the postseason since then.

2) Huh? When did San Diego beat the Colts for the 3rd time in the playoffs?

Sorry if I confused you, I was listing TOTAL post-season wins (not just against the Colts) since 2006

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

craxie is doing the lord's work in here.

 

[Tau837]

craxie is doing the lord's work in here.

 

[Bubbles]

Any discussion of the top-10 QBs that does not include Jay Cutler is flawed.

This is not a list of the 10 best passing offenses.

 

[Tau837]

Any discussion of the top-10 QBs that does not include Jay Cutler is flawed.This is not a list of the 10 best passing offenses.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Sooo just ignore the awesome WRs because...well Rivers has 1 or 2 awesome WRs in Harrison(prime) or Wayne's range right? Wow what a reach

No, you missed what the discussion was about.He was claiming that Manning was better because he CONSISTENTLY turned no-names into playmakersI was curious as to which 'no-names' he had in mind.Using a VERY generous definition, i found 4 in 11 years, hardly evidence of consistency.It had nothing to do with the quality of Manning's or Rivers' top receivers

Need images?

That was almost 4 years ago. What does that have to do with right now?If winning a SB suddenly transforms a QB into a transcendent being that is beyond mere mortal QBs, why has he been smacked by Rivers in the playoffs two years running?Manning might have been better in 2006, but since then . . . Playoff wins:Rivers - 3Manning - 0

And yet you argue that stats should rule the argument?... Now your saying those 2 wins alone rather than the stats in those games that show Manning's superior statistical performance or the fact that Rivers didn't stay in the game to win one of them.. It was actually a backup that drove down and threw the winning touchdown...

 

[craxie]

And yet you argue that stats should rule the argument?

I'm saying pick your poisonIf you think stats are more important, Rivers has better stats this year with a worse team.If you think rings and big wins are important, Rivers has booted Manning from the playoffs 2 years runningDon't say Manning is better today because he won a ring 3 years ago and the last 2 years Rivers beat him don't count because Rivers' stats weren't the greatest.That's just being silly.Again I say the only argument for Manning you can make THIS year is 3 more wins with a far better team.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Manning is the best QB.

He may as well be the Assistant Head Coach, while he is on the field.

All things being equal, and I was asked to pick a QB for a single game - Manning without any hesitation. Others may have stronger arms, and make "prettier" throws, or may be more beloved by their offensive linemen, but none have the ability to manage a game and make decisions and adjustments on the fly like Manning.

 

[Two Deep]

I'll settle this: Those of us who have Rivers as our Fantasy QB would rather have P. Manning.

 

[Ghost Rider]

How is Rivers 2-0 record in the playoffs against Manning relevant? Jake Delhomme is 4-1 vs. Drew Brees since 2006; is Delhomme the better player?

Rivers does, however, get mad props from me for playing in the '07 AFC title game with that injury. That showed major guts. It became much harder to hate the guy after that.

 

[craxie]

Manning is the best QB.He may as well be the Assistant Head Coach, while he is on the field. All things being equal, and I was asked to pick a QB for a single game - Manning without any hesitation. Others may have stronger arms, and make "prettier" throws, or may be more beloved by their offensive linemen, but none have the ability to manage a game and make decisions and adjustments on the fly like Manning.

All nice statements . . . which are impossible to proveIf what you say is true, it should manifest itself somehow as Manning being clearly superior to other QBs. Yet there is no such evidence.

I'll settle this: Those of us who have Rivers as our Fantasy QB would rather have P. Manning.

So the player with the better fantasy stats is always better real-life player?

How is Rivers 2-0 record in the playoffs against Manning relevant? Jake Delhomme is 4-1 vs. Drew Brees since 2006; is Delhomme the better player?

Because that was in the playoffs and Delhomme's games were in the regular season. At least that's what the "he's better because he has a ring" crowd would have you belive: only the postseason matters, the regular season is irrelevant(I'm just telling you what they would say, not necessarily that I agree with it)

 

[sho nuff]

Manning is the best QB.He may as well be the Assistant Head Coach, while he is on the field. All things being equal, and I was asked to pick a QB for a single game - Manning without any hesitation. Others may have stronger arms, and make "prettier" throws, or may be more beloved by their offensive linemen, but none have the ability to manage a game and make decisions and adjustments on the fly like Manning.

All nice statements . . . which are impossible to proveIf what you say is true, it should manifest itself somehow as Manning being clearly superior to other QBs. Yet there is no such evidence.Because that was in the playoffs and Delhomme's games were in the regular season. At least that's what the "he's better because he has a ring" crowd would have you belive: only the postseason matters, the regular season is irrelevant(I'm just telling you what they would say, not necessarily that I agree with it)

Few things...there is evidence to those who watch both play the game.True, there is no on paper stat showing what Manning can do...but if that is all you are looking at is on paper stats...then you are already behind.As for the playoff games...for the stat guys, I posted both player's stats...Its not as if Rivers outplayed Manning in those games.Look at how each actually played...not just who got the W if you want to compare the players.