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So we can't rely on stats to show Manning's greatness because he transcends stats, got it
But . . . but . . . but you just said stats weren't reliable indicators of greatness.I'm all
(Let me just say if you have to look at stats and can't just look at the win, Manning got outplayed by McNair (Manning posted a 39.6, yikes!) AND Brady (barely) during his SB run. Hmmmm)
Im saying watch the guy play. And his stats are pretty darn good too.Do you deny that he does things on the field that Rivers just does not do?I never said stats were not reliable indicators...I said they are not the only things...but for you who keeps going back and forth between stats and wins depending on which argument you are trying to make...I posted the stats earlier for you.You sure are confused given the stance you have taken about Rivers in this manner.You seem to try to be playing all sides on stats vs. wins...and don't even want to consider any factors that are not shown on paper.So we can't rely on stats to show Manning's greatness because he transcends stats, got itBut . . . but . . . but you just said stats weren't reliable indicators of greatness.I'm all
I'll ask a different question. What does it matter?In the end it comes down to results. Do these magical 'things' let him throw for more yards per attempt? Do they keep him from throwing more interceptions? No and no.If these 'things' (which no one can quite prove) don't let him perform at a higher level, what good are they?
I only go back and forth to demonstrate how illogical certain positions are, namely that stats only seem to count when they show Manning in a positive light.It's a no-lose argument.If the stats support Manning, great, and if they don't, well that just proves that Manning is greater than stats.Do you see why others might have a problem with such a line of reasoning?Look, all I'm asking is that when people make an argument for Manning, don't make it self-contradictory
You're the one that keeps flip flopping the argument bro... And you keep harping on this "ring" thing.. I've looked back and.... Is anyone else here even mentioning the ring but you?.. LOLAll you have is Yards per completion, interception #'s, and 2 wins in the playoffs... On all other stats Manning wins...The original question was "Who's better now" Which makes this years stats and wins the determining factor when answering the question.Manning has more yards, TD's, and wins.....You asked for results? Well the win being the #1 most important stat in competition shows results... And the 2 most sought after stats when looking at passers after the win would be TD's and yards... ding ding ding... we have a winner Average yards per completion are nice too. And who wouldn't covet that Rivers interception ratio? But the wins, TD's and yards pretty much cover that argument...
Saying he has more yards and TDs is meaningless because he throws it so much more. I could have more yards and TDs than Manning if you let me throw it enough times.You can only judge by what they do with the opportunities they are given.
Wouldn't you have to throw the ball down field more often if your running game and def was as bad as you say? Wouldn't that account for the yards per completion difference?You're a Chargers fan right? Or just a Rivers fantasy owner....
exactly, DYAR is a cumulative stat, just like total yards
Throwing the ball down field does indeed account for the difference in yards/completion.However I was under the impression that throwing the ball down field accurately is a 'good thing' and is in fact MORE DIFFICULT than throwing it short.You always hear QBs criticized because they don't have the arm to "stretch the field" or that they're a "checkdown king".I must admit this thread is the first time I've ever seen the ability to make plays down the field portrayed in anything but a positive light.Let's put it this way, if Rivers is averaging more yards/play because he throws it deep so often, why don't all QBs throw it deep more often?
What does it matter? Seriously? What does leadership and doing other things matter? Wow. Pretty sure with that answer right there that there is no use even going on with you anymore.I have not made it self-contradictory at all.Manning is better because of a combination of things...stats, wins, leadership, abilities, instinct, football knowledge and so on.He is one of the, if not the greatest QB of all time. And Rivers is not even in the discussion at this point...not even close to top 10 all time at this point.And Manning is playing at that type of level right now.Im glad some of you all support Rivers. He is having a great year. But he simply can't hold Manning's jock.
Because they don't have to.... LOL figure it out man.... You saying Manning doesn't have the arm strength to stretch the field? You weren't watching football during the days Marvin Harrison and Manning played together?The point is.... Not that being able to stretch the field is bad... Don't be ridiculous/intentionally daft.... Shouldn't Rivers have to throw down field more frequently do to your claimed lack of adequate support on def and in the running game? And Doesn't that affect the average yards per completion?Please answer my question. Are you or are you not, one or more of the following:1) A dedicated Chargers fan.2) A Rivers FF owner.3) Phillip Rivers incognito
Exactly. Only a homer would disagree... Manning is at a level that Rivers has yet to achieve. Maybe one day...
Undoubtedly his career is one of the if not the best of all time.But THIS year he has not been better than Rivers
For a career, yesFor this year, no
You misunderstand. Of course overall it matters. But Rivers does not lack in leadership, intelligence, field management or other intangibles either. Not only is it obvious from watching him, these attributes have had a tangible impact on his RESULTS.The argument was that Manning has MORE leadership, MORE (football) intelligence, MORE field management and MORE intangibles.This is of course an argument that's impossible to prove because Rivers obviously has all of those attributes in abundance too.So then the question becomes 'Does any hypothetical intangibles difference between Rivers and Manning make Manning a better QB than Rivers', and right now the evidence says no.
No, obviously he does an excellent job of stretching the fieldHowever, Rivers does it better.
1. Not really2. Even if you accept your premise (which I don't), there is a difference between going deep and going deep successfully.When you can do it as successfully as Rivers, it is no longer something you 'have to do' or are 'forced to do', it becomes something you 'want to do'
Actually...for career and for this year too.And yes...Manning's difference in intangibles when compared to Rivers is quite large. And yes...the evidence suggest Manning is the better QB.Despite your ranting in this topic.
Manning's overall completion % is better than Rivers.... So you're saying it's ok to lose more games and to have a lesser completion % as long as he's completed more long passes? lol... ok whatever"It's ok guys, Rivers only misses the target on his short passes"Maybe he needs a larger window to hit that V-Jaxes larger frame and fleet feet provide better when he's down field. And are you even sure that you're not including yards picked up after the catch in your "My guy has the more accurate arm from long distance" argument?I'll ask againPlease answer my question. Are you or are you not, one or more of the following:1) A dedicated Chargers fan.2) A Rivers FF owner.3) Phillip Rivers incognito ph34r.gifThis time, Try answering all the questions... You seem to dodge most of the argument.
Im not shocked that you don't see it.What evidence?Stats + wins + watching him play.
Completing tons of really short passes is no goodCompleting very few long passes is no good eitherObviously both completion % and yards/completion are important, but either alone is incompleteHow do you balance the two?EasyYards/attemptAnd no I never said it's ok to lose more games as long you complete more long passes.I said winning more games IS an (the) argument for Manning, but I also said he has a better team
What are you talking about?Rivers does very well on short passes too.In fact he has a better rating than Manning in the 0-10 and 10-20 yard splits
The ESPN stats are based on distance in the air
Rivers wins the stats
Football is a team sport
Because I said so
Why? He seems to be doing quite well. I think his evidence has built a stronger case than the other side's argument of intangibles, wins, and naive stats.I am shocked that others who have stuck up for Rivers are letting this guy plead their case now. Or maybe they are like me and have simply lost interest in this conversation, for obvious reasons.
Pack43 said:Why? He seems to be doing quite well. I think his evidence has built a stronger case than the other side's argument of intangibles, wins, and naive stats.Ghost Rider said:I am shocked that others who have stuck up for Rivers are letting this guy plead their case now. Or maybe they are like me and have simply lost interest in this conversation, for obvious reasons.
Aside from that, I'm just happy that it's reached a point where a lot of people acknowledge that Rivers is one of the few best QBs in the league.
Let's put it this way. If Chris Johnson is averaging more yards/rush because he breaks long runs so often, why don't all RBs break long runs more often?Because they don't have to.Carolina Hustler said:
He is fifth in the AFC in Pro Bowl votes -- behind Carson Palmer.Pack43 said:Why? He seems to be doing quite well. I think his evidence has built a stronger case than the other side's argument of intangibles, wins, and naive stats.Ghost Rider said:I am shocked that others who have stuck up for Rivers are letting this guy plead their case now. Or maybe they are like me and have simply lost interest in this conversation, for obvious reasons.
Nice parsing.Notice I said stats + wins + watching him play.Meaning...all put together, not alone...but together, the whole picture not just tiny bits and pieces you want to cherry pick to argue.craxie said:Rivers wins the statssho nuff said:Football is a team sportsho nuff said:Because I said sosho nuff said:
Got screwed last year too.But to say that craxie is doing well? I think is quite misguided.He is fifth in the AFC in Pro Bowl votes -- behind Carson Palmer.Pack43 said:Why? He seems to be doing quite well. I think his evidence has built a stronger case than the other side's argument of intangibles, wins, and naive stats.Ghost Rider said:I am shocked that others who have stuck up for Rivers are letting this guy plead their case now. Or maybe they are like me and have simply lost interest in this conversation, for obvious reasons.
Got screwed last year too.But to say that craxie is doing well? I think is quite misguided.He is fifth in the AFC in Pro Bowl votes -- behind Carson Palmer.Pack43 said:Why? He seems to be doing quite well. I think his evidence has built a stronger case than the other side's argument of intangibles, wins, and naive stats.Ghost Rider said:I am shocked that others who have stuck up for Rivers are letting this guy plead their case now. Or maybe they are like me and have simply lost interest in this conversation, for obvious reasons.
He has established that Rivers wins the stats argument, which you won't concede despite offering no evidence to the contrary.
Exactly, and it has already been pointed out. But the Charger fans, including Craxie as a charger fan although he conveniently disregards the question when he's asked, are also disregarding and not answering for any of the stats that don't stand in Rivers' favor.We have 4 chargers fans pimping Rivers here.... Anyone else on this planet think Rivers is better than manning except Chargers Homers?It's not ridiculous to put Rivers up on a shelf as "A" top QB... But it is certainly ridiculous to say he's better than Manning...
Rivers actually wins the consistency argument (that was actually my first post in this thread)His lowest rated game was 84.5 while Manning has 2 below that mark (65.6 and 83.6)Rivers has produced (thrown or run) at least one TD every game unlike ManningRivers has never thrown more INTs than TDs this year, unlike Manning
I already said I wouldn't argue ranking Brees or Favre ahead of Rivers at the momentJust Manning
I'm one of the Chargers fans, and I ranked Brees #1, Rivers #2.
It basically boils down to whether or not one favors rate statistics or bulk/compiled statistics. Manning has the edge in all bulk/compiled statistics other than interceptions, but he's thrown almost 100 more passes, so that is to be expected. Rivers has the edge in most of the rate statistics. So bulk/compiled statistics favor Manning, and rate statistics favor Rivers.I'm not disregarding the statistics that favor Manning. I just happen to think that rate statistics are better for answering the question of who is better right now... because otherwise there is no way to account for Manning's extra pass attempts. So IMO the statistics favor Rivers with regard to answering the thread question.Aside from statistics, we can look at winning, but, as has been pointed out, wins and losses are not the sole responsibility of the QB, and Manning arguably has a better team around him. I'd still call this an edge to Manning.Intangibles like leadership have been mentioned, but there is no objective way to measure those.So IMO the net result of all that is that Rivers is playing better right now, which was the question of the thread.
Chase isn't a Chargers fan, and he put Rivers at #1 earlier in this thread.
Obviously you don't agree that Rivers is better, and most here don't. But IMO the fact that there has been a solid argument made for Rivers shows that it is not a ridiculous notion.
I don't think Rivers is necessarily better than Manning (or Brees) (it's too close to call), but I do think craxie has made better arguments than his opponents.
Thing is...the argument is not about one stat or one issue...its about the combination of all things.So just "winning" the stat argument (which Rivers does not win every stat category anyway...just the ones some want to cherry pick as being the best indicators) really is not saying much. Its the combination of factors which leads me, and most others, into thinking Manning is better. And he showed it last night too.He has established that Rivers wins the stats argument, which you won't concede despite offering no evidence to the contrary. He's discussed other factors that have contributed to Mannings wins advantageHe's agreed to disagree on the subjective "watching them play/intangibles" argument
The arguments made by Craxie where 2 stat lines and the 2 wins in the playoffs. And everytime he didn't have an answer for the arguement. He either skipped that portion in his response. His arguement was based on why Mannings ring meant nothing for 2 pages whjen nobody was even argueing the SB ring...What is there to argue about. Manning throws more balls at a higher completion rate, gets more yards, scores more touchdowns, wins more games, and the guy might as well be considered part of the offensive coaching staff. If Rivers is better than Manning, and the Chargers def/running game is so much worse than the Colts, Why doesn't Rivers throw the ball as much or more than Manning to make up for it?
What argument?
I've already answered all those 'arguments'. Repeating the same defeated arguments louder is not a winning tactic, just saying.
Well now we finally have an interesting question.Certainly many people are unhappy with the 'Run LT up the gut for half-a-yard every first down' strategy that Norv seems to love, but Rivers bails them out so consistently and they have won 8 straight, so the criticism has been somewhat muted.But let's just say that you're not the only one to wonder why they don't throw more.And of course when they get a lead it's even worse as Norv would try to run out an entire half if he could.Which brings me to what I think is probably the biggest reason. Manning throws it more because he has to because the Colts have been behind late in games. The Colts have tied the record for close wins and have had a huge number of 4th quarter comebacks.The Chargers haven't had as many comebacks because they haven't been behind.Once the Chargers get ahead, Norv pulls the air out of the offense and tries to milk clock.For instance, after the Chargers got a 27-7 lead in the Browns game, the Chargers had 13 rushing plays and just 5 passing plays (and 3 kneel downs)Such conservative play calling allowed the Browns to come back to 30-23, but in the end it worked and the Chargers won.And in the second Denver game, Rivers had a season-low 22 pass attempts because the Chargers were winning 32-3.A lot of Rivers passing attempts indicates a tight game, so in way, his fewer attempts is indicative of the Chargers doing well.That's just the way Norv calls games.edit: went back and looked at the quarter splits and Manning still throws more attempts in the first quarter, so in conclusion I can only shrug and say 'Norv'
Splits for Rivers:Ahead - 154 (38%)What argument?I've already answered all those 'arguments'. Repeating the same defeated arguments louder is not a winning tactic, just saying.Well now we finally have an interesting question.Certainly many people are unhappy with the 'Run LT up the gut for half-a-yard every first down' strategy that Norv seems to love, but Rivers bails them out so consistently and they have won 8 straight, so the criticism has been somewhat muted.
But let's just say that you're not the only one to wonder why they don't throw more.
And of course when they get a lead it's even worse as Norv would try to run out an entire half if he could.
Which brings me to what I think is probably the biggest reason. Manning throws it more because he has to because the Colts have been behind late in games. The Colts have tied the record for close wins and have had a huge number of 4th quarter comebacks.
The Chargers haven't had as many comebacks because they haven't been behind.
Once the Chargers get ahead, Norv pulls the air out of the offense and tries to milk clock.
For instance, after the Chargers got a 27-7 lead in the Browns game, the Chargers had 13 rushing plays and just 5 passing plays (and 3 kneel downs)
Such conservative play calling allowed the Browns to come back to 30-23, but in the end it worked and the Chargers won.
And in the second Denver game, Rivers had a season-low 22 pass attempts because the Chargers were winning 32-3.
A lot of Rivers passing attempts indicates a tight game, so in way, his fewer attempts is indicative of the Chargers doing well.
That's just the way Norv calls games.
edit: went back and looked at the quarter splits and Manning still throws more attempts in the first quarter, so in conclusion I can only shrug and say 'Norv'
Well, I'm a Charger fan and think it's pretty silly for anyone to compare the two... Manning is easily #1 right now and he's never been behind Rivers. I'm sure plenty of people will bash me for ranking Rivers ahead of Brees though. In three full seasons as a starter Rivers has won three playoff games. In seven full seasons as a starter Brees has managed ONE playoff win. I wouldn't even consider trading Rivers for Brees. You put Rivers in an offense where he gets 650+ passing attempts and everyone would be crying "OMG, how did SD let this guy get away!?".Manning - It's not even a race for MVP this year.... he should win it by a mile. I've never one guy carry a team like this. I honestly think IND is a .500 team with an average QB.Brady - Has more jewelry than Manning and people have a short memory. Probably the guy I'd least like to face in a playoff game.Favre - Best supporting cast on the list but has won a ring and changed his game this season for the good of the team.Big Ben - Multiple rings for a young guy that has had some very, very poor pass blocking.Rivers - Has simply produced no matter who gets hurt or declines.Brees - Very likable player but not near the same level as Manning imo. Great story turning around the Saints though.Eli - Inconsistent but won the big one early in his career. Has plenty of time to win another.Rogers - The sky is the limit but hasn't won anything yet.McNabb - Hard to pin down. Wins at an amazing rate but sometimes doesn't seem to be able to throw a football very well.Cutler - The anti-McNabb. Throws the prettiest spiral you've ever seen... all too often to a DB in the endzone. Too many people think he's gone from HOF to bum in less than a year though.
And that disproves yet another Craxie argument. In which the disadvantage for Rivers was that they throw less when ahead... Actually, they've thrown more when ahead than when behind... Higher percentage as well as attempts...Splits for Rivers:Ahead - 154 (38%)What argument?I've already answered all those 'arguments'. Repeating the same defeated arguments louder is not a winning tactic, just saying.Well now we finally have an interesting question.Certainly many people are unhappy with the 'Run LT up the gut for half-a-yard every first down' strategy that Norv seems to love, but Rivers bails them out so consistently and they have won 8 straight, so the criticism has been somewhat muted.
But let's just say that you're not the only one to wonder why they don't throw more.
And of course when they get a lead it's even worse as Norv would try to run out an entire half if he could.
Which brings me to what I think is probably the biggest reason. Manning throws it more because he has to because the Colts have been behind late in games. The Colts have tied the record for close wins and have had a huge number of 4th quarter comebacks.
The Chargers haven't had as many comebacks because they haven't been behind.
Once the Chargers get ahead, Norv pulls the air out of the offense and tries to milk clock.
For instance, after the Chargers got a 27-7 lead in the Browns game, the Chargers had 13 rushing plays and just 5 passing plays (and 3 kneel downs)
Such conservative play calling allowed the Browns to come back to 30-23, but in the end it worked and the Chargers won.
And in the second Denver game, Rivers had a season-low 22 pass attempts because the Chargers were winning 32-3.
A lot of Rivers passing attempts indicates a tight game, so in way, his fewer attempts is indicative of the Chargers doing well.
That's just the way Norv calls games.
edit: went back and looked at the quarter splits and Manning still throws more attempts in the first quarter, so in conclusion I can only shrug and say 'Norv'
Tied - 114 (28%)
Behind - 138 (34%)
Splits for Manning:
Ahead - 258 (48%)
Tied - 93 (18%)
Behind - 181 (34%)
48% of Manning's attempts have come when ahead, compared to just 38% of Rivers' attempts... 258 attempts for Manning vs. 154 for Rivers. That appears to be the bulk of the difference between their attempts (Manning has 126 more attempts on the season, having played in one more game).
Norv calls the plays in SD. And Manning does most of the play calling in Indy... You think Rivers could call the plays and win 14 straight?Offensive Management and play calling: Advantage Manning...Manning has won more games. You say because Manning is on a better team. I say Manning makes his offense better. Obviously there are going to be better opportunities to run when you throw the ball 532 times with such great accuracy. If Indy has a better def then why are the points against totals virtually the same? When it comes to how the def affects the offense the main effect comes from points scored isn't it? The points against.... It doesn't matter how many passing yards the def has given up when it comes to the Offense. Just matters how many points the offense has to make up for... Your def>@ Indy argument is lame...Wins: Advantage ManningMore points, more yards, more attempts, more wins... A product of sustaining drives.. Which is the Job of the "Field General"... Manning keeps drives alive with his ability to prepare for games, honing technique, reading defenses, calling and/or change plays at the line and in the huddle, ability to make accurate reads quickly, strong accurate arm..Bulk stats/sustained drives: Advantage ManningI find it funny though, you think the reason is Norv, and you have the answers. Yet Norv gets paid to make those decisions and you don't... Norv calls the plays the way he does for a reason. He surely knows more about Rivers than you or I. Since you were wrong about Norv taking the air out of the ball when they are ahead, I'll predict you saying "well, they should crank up the passing game more when ahead like the Colts do with Manning" hmmm, very telling that they don't in my opinion. The Chargers know Rivers better than any joe here on the net and yet they disagree with you week after week.... What does that say about Rivers?edit: went back and looked at the quarter splits and Manning still throws more attempts in the first quarter, so in conclusion I can only shrug and say 'Norv'
off on tangent but...I don't understand this one
First off, I suspect most QBs on good teams throw more when ahead than behind... because good teams are ahead more than they are behind.Second, in this comparison, Manning throws much more often when ahead than Rivers does.And that disproves yet another Craxie argument. In which the disadvantage for Rivers was that they throw less when ahead... Actually, they've thrown more when ahead than when behind... Higher percentage as well as attempts...Splits for Rivers:Ahead - 154 (38%)Well now we finally have an interesting question.Certainly many people are unhappy with the 'Run LT up the gut for half-a-yard every first down' strategy that Norv seems to love, but Rivers bails them out so consistently and they have won 8 straight, so the criticism has been somewhat muted.
But let's just say that you're not the only one to wonder why they don't throw more.
And of course when they get a lead it's even worse as Norv would try to run out an entire half if he could.
Which brings me to what I think is probably the biggest reason. Manning throws it more because he has to because the Colts have been behind late in games. The Colts have tied the record for close wins and have had a huge number of 4th quarter comebacks.
The Chargers haven't had as many comebacks because they haven't been behind.
Once the Chargers get ahead, Norv pulls the air out of the offense and tries to milk clock.
For instance, after the Chargers got a 27-7 lead in the Browns game, the Chargers had 13 rushing plays and just 5 passing plays (and 3 kneel downs)
Such conservative play calling allowed the Browns to come back to 30-23, but in the end it worked and the Chargers won.
And in the second Denver game, Rivers had a season-low 22 pass attempts because the Chargers were winning 32-3.
A lot of Rivers passing attempts indicates a tight game, so in way, his fewer attempts is indicative of the Chargers doing well.
That's just the way Norv calls games.
edit: went back and looked at the quarter splits and Manning still throws more attempts in the first quarter, so in conclusion I can only shrug and say 'Norv'
Tied - 114 (28%)
Behind - 138 (34%)
Splits for Manning:
Ahead - 258 (48%)
Tied - 93 (18%)
Behind - 181 (34%)
48% of Manning's attempts have come when ahead, compared to just 38% of Rivers' attempts... 258 attempts for Manning vs. 154 for Rivers. That appears to be the bulk of the difference between their attempts (Manning has 126 more attempts on the season, having played in one more game).
Interesting, that seems to suggest that Manning continues to throw while ahead while Rivers doesn't
You're misinterpreting the stats (which is becoming a common theme).Those are percentages of the TOTAL, not percentages of plays while in those particular situations.
Certainly points scored is important, but so is how they do it. If the defense can't get off the field (and the Chargers were dead last in 3rd down stops for a while, which makes the Dallas game even more miraculous), the offense can't get on the field.
Nothing. Norv is who he is, and that's just his philosophy.
