Who are your top 10 NFL Quarterbacks (in REALITY, not fantasy football (1 Viewer)

[Carolina Hustler]

If Rivers is better than Manning, and the Chargers def/running game is so much worse than the Colts, Why doesn't Rivers throw the ball as much or more than Manning to make up for it?

Well now we finally have an interesting question.Certainly many people are unhappy with the 'Run LT up the gut for half-a-yard every first down' strategy that Norv seems to love, but Rivers bails them out so consistently and they have won 8 straight, so the criticism has been somewhat muted.

But let's just say that you're not the only one to wonder why they don't throw more.

And of course when they get a lead it's even worse as Norv would try to run out an entire half if he could.

Which brings me to what I think is probably the biggest reason. Manning throws it more because he has to because the Colts have been behind late in games. The Colts have tied the record for close wins and have had a huge number of 4th quarter comebacks.

The Chargers haven't had as many comebacks because they haven't been behind.

Once the Chargers get ahead, Norv pulls the air out of the offense and tries to milk clock.

For instance, after the Chargers got a 27-7 lead in the Browns game, the Chargers had 13 rushing plays and just 5 passing plays (and 3 kneel downs)

Such conservative play calling allowed the Browns to come back to 30-23, but in the end it worked and the Chargers won.

And in the second Denver game, Rivers had a season-low 22 pass attempts because the Chargers were winning 32-3.

A lot of Rivers passing attempts indicates a tight game, so in way, his fewer attempts is indicative of the Chargers doing well.

That's just the way Norv calls games.

edit: went back and looked at the quarter splits and Manning still throws more attempts in the first quarter, so in conclusion I can only shrug and say 'Norv'

Splits for Rivers:Ahead - 154 (38%)

Tied - 114 (28%)

Behind - 138 (34%)

Splits for Manning:

Ahead - 258 (48%)

Tied - 93 (18%)

Behind - 181 (34%)

48% of Manning's attempts have come when ahead, compared to just 38% of Rivers' attempts... 258 attempts for Manning vs. 154 for Rivers. That appears to be the bulk of the difference between their attempts (Manning has 126 more attempts on the season, having played in one more game).

And that disproves yet another Craxie argument. In which the disadvantage for Rivers was that they throw less when ahead... Actually, they've thrown more when ahead than when behind... Higher percentage as well as attempts...

First off, I suspect most QBs on good teams throw more when ahead than behind... because good teams are ahead more than they are behind.Second, in this comparison, Manning throws much more often when ahead than Rivers does.

Your post really doesn't make any sense.

Makes plenty of sense. Craxie says the reason Rivers doesn't have as many compiled stats, is due to lacking opportunity. Because He says the Chargers throw less when they are winning than when they are losing. Your stats show that not only have they thrown more when winning than win losing but at a larger percentage/ratio than when they are losing. So you disproved the basis for his argument but pulling the stats.

 

[bulger2holt]

Put Rivers on the Colts and would they be 14-0 ? End of debate.

 

[Tau837]

The Chargers know Rivers better than any joe here on the net and yet they disagree with you week after week.... What does that say about Rivers?

So you're suggesting that it says something negative about Rivers that the Chargers haven't had him throw more often? If you knew anything about Norv Turner's history as a HC and OC, you'd know that he favors a balanced attack.In 16 seasons as HC and OC before taking the HC role in San Diego prior to the 2007 season, his teams averaged 518 passing attempts. This season, San Diego is on pace for 541 passing attempts. IMO it says something that they are on pace to exceed his teams' historical averages, considering the Chargers are 10-3 and have only had to come from behind in the 4th quarter to win 2 of their games so far.The Chargers are in position to secure a first round bye for the playoffs. They haven't had Rivers throw more because they haven't needed that. It has nothing to do with any lack of success in their passing game. That should be obvious given they have the #5 passing offense in the league.Edit to account for Turner's year as OC in San Francisco.

 

[craxie]

Your stats show that not only have they thrown more when winning than win losing but at a larger percentage/ratio than when they are losing. So you disproved the basis for his argument but pulling the stats.

::facepalm::You don't even understand enough to understand why you're wrong

Norv calls the plays in SD. And Manning does most of the play calling in Indy... You think Rivers could call the plays and win 14 straight?

If Rivers + coordinator has better stats than Manning by himself, perhaps Manning should exhibit some leadership and cede some authority back to a coordinator, no?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Let's put it this way. If Chris Johnson is averaging more yards/rush because he breaks long runs so often, why don't all RBs break long runs more often?Because they don't have to.

off on tangent but...I don't understand this one

you aren't supposed toit doesn't make sensejust like the claim that the only reason Rivers throws deep is because he has to and because he's inaccurate on the short-to-mid throws

You say Rivers has a better long distance completion rate. You suggested that makes Rivers superior on long passes. And I know Manning has a better overall completion rate. I think you used the 30yard cut off. Well then Since manning has a better overall completion rate, and if you're right that Rivers has a better completion rate on passes over 30 yards, the math would say that Manning has a better completion rate on the stuff under 30 yards..Using your logic Manning is superior on the passes under 30 yards. What percentage of all the passes either of these 2 QB's throw this year do you think will be over 30 yards? 10%? I'm just guessing... But if that's the case then You claiming Rivers is the superior passer on those 10% would make Manning the superior passer on the other 90% of the passes QB's will need to throw on any given Sunday...Hmmmmm..

 

[Tau837]

...

You're misinterpreting the stats (which is becoming a common theme).

 

[Carolina Hustler]

If Rivers + coordinator has better stats than Manning by himself, perhaps Manning should exhibit some leadership and cede some authority back to a coordinator, no?

What a ridiculous statement. First off, The object is to win.... not have the better stats... get a clue.Second. Manning has more passes at a higher pass completion ratio... More TD's... And more yards... He gets the job done... Rivers doesn't have the better stats....

 

[Carolina Hustler]

...

You're misinterpreting the stats (which is becoming a common theme).

^ = 2 chargers homers petting themselves over their QB...Craxie doesn't even have the decency to admit he's a Chargers fan...Put it to a poll boys, I'd predict Manning wins by a landslide...

 

[Tau837]

You say Rivers has a better long distance completion rate. You suggested that makes Rivers superior on long passes. And I know Manning has a better overall completion rate. I think you used the 30yard cut off. Well then Since manning has a better overall completion rate, and if you're right that Rivers has a better completion rate on passes over 30 yards, the math would say that Manning has a better completion rate on the stuff under 30 yards..Using your logic Manning is superior on the passes under 30 yards. What percentage of all the passes either of these 2 QB's throw this year do you think will be over 30 yards? 10%? I'm just guessing... But if that's the case then You claiming Rivers is the superior passer on those 10% would make Manning the superior passer on the other 90% of the passes QB's will need to throw on any given Sunday...Hmmmmm..

Why are you fixated on completion percentage? You should consider QB rating, which takes completion percentage into account as well as TD percentage, interception percentage, and yards per attempt.ESPN splits the distance of throws into the following: behind the line; 1-10 yards; 11-20 yards; 21-30 yards; 31-40 yards; 41+ yards. I posted the links earlier.Rivers has a higher QB rating on throws in these ranges: 1-10 yards; 11-20 yards; 31-40 yards; and 41+ yards. Manning has a higher QB rating on throws behind the line and from 21-30 yards.And, of course, Rivers has a higher overall QB rating.Hope this helps.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

The Chargers know Rivers better than any joe here on the net and yet they disagree with you week after week.... What does that say about Rivers?

So you're suggesting that it says something negative about Rivers that the Chargers haven't had him throw more often? If you knew anything about Norv Turner's history as a HC and OC, you'd know that he favors a balanced attack.In 15 seasons as HC and OC prior to taking the HC role in San Diego prior to the 2007 season, his teams averaged 523 passing attempts. This season, San Diego is on pace for 541 passing attempts. IMO it says something that they are on pace to exceed his teams' historical averages, considering the Chargers are 10-3 and have only had to come from behind in the 4th quarter to win 2 of their games so far.The Chargers are 10-3 and in position to secure a first round bye for the playoffs. They haven't had Rivers throw more because they haven't needed that. It has nothing to do with any lack of success in their passing game. That should be obvious given they have the #5 passing offense in the league.

#5? I'd think the "#1" QB in the league could do better than #5 passing offense...

 

[Tau837]

...

You're misinterpreting the stats (which is becoming a common theme).

^ = 2 chargers homers petting themselves over their QB...Craxie doesn't even have the decency to admit he's a Chargers fan...Put it to a poll boys, I'd predict Manning wins by a landslide...

No doubt. There are more supporters in this thread of Manning over Rivers than the opposite. But being in the majority does not equate to being right.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

You say Rivers has a better long distance completion rate. You suggested that makes Rivers superior on long passes. And I know Manning has a better overall completion rate. I think you used the 30yard cut off. Well then Since manning has a better overall completion rate, and if you're right that Rivers has a better completion rate on passes over 30 yards, the math would say that Manning has a better completion rate on the stuff under 30 yards..Using your logic Manning is superior on the passes under 30 yards. What percentage of all the passes either of these 2 QB's throw this year do you think will be over 30 yards? 10%? I'm just guessing... But if that's the case then You claiming Rivers is the superior passer on those 10% would make Manning the superior passer on the other 90% of the passes QB's will need to throw on any given Sunday...Hmmmmm..

Why are you fixated on completion percentage? You should consider QB rating, which takes completion percentage into account as well as TD percentage, interception percentage, and yards per attempt.ESPN splits the distance of throws into the following: behind the line; 1-10 yards; 11-20 yards; 21-30 yards; 31-40 yards; 41+ yards. I posted the links earlier.Rivers has a higher QB rating on throws in these ranges: 1-10 yards; 11-20 yards; 31-40 yards; and 41+ yards. Manning has a higher QB rating on throws behind the line and from 21-30 yards.And, of course, Rivers has a higher overall QB rating.Hope this helps.

TD percentage means very little if you're undefeated.... Obviously they threw enough and more than the chargers. Why should they have had to throw more? Obviously the true #1 stat of a passer is his completion percentage. That is a pure passer stat. All other stats are heavily affected by coaching, wether they're winning or losing, the running game, def....It's obvious isn't it? They throw the necessary TD passes to win the game. Manning has done that consistently this year. Rivers has failed to do so on at least 3 occasions in '09'...

 

[Tau837]

The Chargers know Rivers better than any joe here on the net and yet they disagree with you week after week.... What does that say about Rivers?

So you're suggesting that it says something negative about Rivers that the Chargers haven't had him throw more often? If you knew anything about Norv Turner's history as a HC and OC, you'd know that he favors a balanced attack.In 15 seasons as HC and OC prior to taking the HC role in San Diego prior to the 2007 season, his teams averaged 523 passing attempts. This season, San Diego is on pace for 541 passing attempts. IMO it says something that they are on pace to exceed his teams' historical averages, considering the Chargers are 10-3 and have only had to come from behind in the 4th quarter to win 2 of their games so far.The Chargers are 10-3 and in position to secure a first round bye for the playoffs. They haven't had Rivers throw more because they haven't needed that. It has nothing to do with any lack of success in their passing game. That should be obvious given they have the #5 passing offense in the league.

#5? I'd think the "#1" QB in the league could do better than #5 passing offense...

Passing offense rank is a bulk statistic, based on yards. Manning has thrown 31% more passes than Rivers this year. One would expect him and his offense to have more passing yards. And I haven't said I think Rivers is the #1 QB in the league. Nor has craxie as far as I know.You might be right in your opinion that Manning is better. But you seem to have a real problem with reading comprehension and forming coherent arguments. So I'm going to stop participating in this discussion with you.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

The Chargers know Rivers better than any joe here on the net and yet they disagree with you week after week.... What does that say about Rivers?

So you're suggesting that it says something negative about Rivers that the Chargers haven't had him throw more often? If you knew anything about Norv Turner's history as a HC and OC, you'd know that he favors a balanced attack.In 15 seasons as HC and OC prior to taking the HC role in San Diego prior to the 2007 season, his teams averaged 523 passing attempts. This season, San Diego is on pace for 541 passing attempts. IMO it says something that they are on pace to exceed his teams' historical averages, considering the Chargers are 10-3 and have only had to come from behind in the 4th quarter to win 2 of their games so far.The Chargers are 10-3 and in position to secure a first round bye for the playoffs. They haven't had Rivers throw more because they haven't needed that. It has nothing to do with any lack of success in their passing game. That should be obvious given they have the #5 passing offense in the league.

#5? I'd think the "#1" QB in the league could do better than #5 passing offense...

Passing offense rank is a bulk statistic, based on yards. Manning has thrown 31% more passes than Rivers this year. One would expect him and his offense to have more passing yards. And I haven't said I think Rivers is the #1 QB in the league. Nor has craxie as far as I know.You might be right in your opinion that Manning is better. But you seem to have a real problem with reading comprehension and forming coherent arguments. So I'm going to stop participating in this discussion with you.

So, you conceded to Manning "might" be better in the process of hurling insults....Well, I guess that just means it hurts you to consider the reality... Sorry if I've caused you to have poor manners...

 

[Chase Stuart]

I have no idea why JWB is still arguing in this thread.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

You say Rivers has a better long distance completion rate. You suggested that makes Rivers superior on long passes. And I know Manning has a better overall completion rate. I think you used the 30yard cut off. Well then Since manning has a better overall completion rate, and if you're right that Rivers has a better completion rate on passes over 30 yards, the math would say that Manning has a better completion rate on the stuff under 30 yards.

No, that doesn't follow. It may be true in this case (I haven't looked), but it doesn't have to be.Consider:Quarterback A: 4/5 on short throws, 15/25 on long throws.Quarterback B: 15/20 on short throws, 10/17 on long throws.Quarterback B has the better completion percentage overall. And yet Quarterback A has the better completion percentage on both long throws and short throws.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

You say Rivers has a better long distance completion rate. You suggested that makes Rivers superior on long passes. And I know Manning has a better overall completion rate. I think you used the 30yard cut off. Well then Since manning has a better overall completion rate, and if you're right that Rivers has a better completion rate on passes over 30 yards, the math would say that Manning has a better completion rate on the stuff under 30 yards.

No, that doesn't follow. It may be true in this case (I haven't looked), but it doesn't have to be.Consider:Quarterback A: 4/5 on short throws, 15/25 on long throws.Quarterback B: 15/20 on short throws, 10/17 on long throws.Quarterback B has the better completion percentage overall. And yet Quarterback A has the better completion percentage on both long throws and short throws.

Good point... But I've gone back to check, and Manning does have better comp percentage on all the under 31yard stuffAlso since passer rating was brought up earlier, I can't wait to see which has the better overall after this week. Anyone wanna wager?Manning also wins in 3rd down completions. Both in bulk and in percentageAlso in pass completions resulting in 1st downs....