rockaction
Footballguy
Let's go, folks. The real stuff starts tomorrow. No more shoddy competition. No more unlevel playing surfaces. Just everyone testing in constant. Oooh, it's a ceteris paribus's dream!
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WHO IS THE AS AMPLIFIED FOR THE COMBINE AS ME?! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rockaction
- Start date
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
I’ve always found it boring. Each season I find myself shocked that professional football teams actually care about this.
Ooh, Player X has given us some pause. I realize he was 9th in the country in receiving but, did you see how slow his shuttle time was? I mean, he made up for it a little bit with his great broad jump, but I’m just not sure we can use him.
Ooh, Player X has given us some pause. I realize he was 9th in the country in receiving but, did you see how slow his shuttle time was? I mean, he made up for it a little bit with his great broad jump, but I’m just not sure we can use him.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Maybe they could jazz it up by making it where everyone is running and jumping and lifting at one time, more of a head to head event.
I have never understood the hoopla over the combine. It's not football stuff but seems to be more important than what the actual players did as football players. I think it's more that football has been over for a month and it's something to talk about than being of actual meaning.
rockaction
Footballguy
Man, I guess nobody is as excited for the combine as I am!! That just makes me special!
rockaction
Footballguy
Seriously, I think it can be instructive not by figuring out which guys are qualified, but which guys test poorly and are not. I guess I don't get a kick out of that, but it's just more information leading up to the draft, which I find interesting at this point of my fandom still.
I'll probably be really sick of it in a decade, but for now, the novelty hasn't worn off. It's easy when you like fantasy football and aren't following a team that suckers up for the combine like the Raiders used to.
Oof, that brings back bad memories of liking the Raiders and shaking my head over some of their selections under the late Al Davis. Combine is still intriguing for that reason, though. Who jumps at a guy?
I'll probably be really sick of it in a decade, but for now, the novelty hasn't worn off. It's easy when you like fantasy football and aren't following a team that suckers up for the combine like the Raiders used to.
Oof, that brings back bad memories of liking the Raiders and shaking my head over some of their selections under the late Al Davis. Combine is still intriguing for that reason, though. Who jumps at a guy?
smbkrypt24
Footballguy
I love the combine!! I am with you. It is football again....well sort of. I just enjoy the drills and watching the prospects, I don't however put much stock in it.Man, I guess nobody is as excited for the combine as I am!! That just makes me special!
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, I further clarified by saying that I think you can test to reduce the pool of those that would have to be outliers to overcome their testing. They always seem to be done in terms of volume in the league for the most part. That's what you can glean as a FF'er, I think.
I don't put much stock in thinking a guy will be great with a great combine anymore, and I'm interested in teams that fall in love with either measurements or drills. Remember how Jeff Okudah was going to step into the league and dominate because he crossed and chopped his feet really well? Well, not so fast...
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rockaction
Footballguy
Pedantry, I know, but...Mike Mamula says
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/02/26/mike-mamula-wasnt-the-combine-stud-turned-bust-youve-heard/
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
It accomplishes three things
1) The interviews allow teams to figure out is a guy's personality is/isn't a fit.
2) It reveals guys that aren't taking the idea of "professional" seriously. If you show up fat, out of shape, or otherwise unprepared for what amounts to the biggest job interview of your life...what will you do when you are given a pile of cash and are expected to prepare week in, week out?
3) ....okay, there are only two.
1) The interviews allow teams to figure out is a guy's personality is/isn't a fit.
2) It reveals guys that aren't taking the idea of "professional" seriously. If you show up fat, out of shape, or otherwise unprepared for what amounts to the biggest job interview of your life...what will you do when you are given a pile of cash and are expected to prepare week in, week out?
3) ....okay, there are only two.
rockaction
Footballguy
I love the hardened users that hate the combine.
It's a brilliant way of separating out the outliers who have been carried by their recruiting class positioning and teammates for too long and those whose raw physical skills developed maybe a little late or got lost in the recruiting process.
It's a brilliant way of separating out the outliers who have been carried by their recruiting class positioning and teammates for too long and those whose raw physical skills developed maybe a little late or got lost in the recruiting process.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
You can and should get that through film study of on-field performance. I don't think stop watches and measuring tapes should/can do the job that scouts and GMs should do themselves.
rockaction
Footballguy
It's impossible to determine two or three tenths of a second that mean everything from film or studies of on-field performance. You can't tell if a guy is running a 4.4 against inferior competition or if he's running a 4.6 or any of the myriad other quantifiable variables that might measure success than you can get with measurements and tests. Look, I'm all for being skeptical of the predictive weight of forty times and the like; in fact, I think it ought to be replaced with GPS tracking and speed estimates, but saying you can gather predictive notions about speed and acceleration from the naked eye from film seems like wishcasting (when did this word seep into the lexicon, by the way?) and a serious overestimation of human cognitive ability.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
More this year than just about any other., It’s a nice distraction from (gestures wildly all around at everything crappy in the world) and for another, very murky draft, but I would love to see a menu for players I am interested in.
also, the quality of NFL mock drafts typically improves substantially after the combine.
also, the quality of NFL mock drafts typically improves substantially after the combine.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That said, the combine can also produce deceiving results. I recall a few players who performed well at the combine and improved their draft stock only to disappoint.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
-OZ-
Footballguy
really it’s just the #2. 1 reflects 2 for many. The questions and answers are almost all either canned or dumb.
“do you have both your ####?” “do you find your mom attractive?”…
Lehigh98
Footballguy
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
And a 4.4 track speed often days little about a guy's football speed. Just as one example.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
joey
Footballguy
If it’s another hit of football you need in this quiet period, the USFL a starts in about a month 
(Full disclosure: I’m only half joking. I will be watching and giving it a chance as a hopeful spring/farm league for the NFL that had an gain some traction. But with XFL returning the year after, theyll probably just tear each other apart and failing instead of joining forces to be a proper farm league for the NFL)
(Full disclosure: I’m only half joking. I will be watching and giving it a chance as a hopeful spring/farm league for the NFL that had an gain some traction. But with XFL returning the year after, theyll probably just tear each other apart and failing instead of joining forces to be a proper farm league for the NFL)
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Teams are dumb too.And yet lendale white was still drafted.
explain that, sir or madam.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Part of why from an FF view I only pay a certain amount of attention until I know who is stuck going where after the draft. Good players get ruined by bad teams and it takes them 4-5 years to escape or just give in and take the money to stay.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Derrick Henry's combine absolutely changed my opinion of him.
DK Metcalf is a cautionary tale about over relying on one trait.
To me the best use of the combine is to pair it with the scouting reports and understand what kind of guy someone is.
Like if i see Rondale Moore's scouting report saying he's able to do everything and run all over the field and then i see he's 5"7" but has tree trunk legs and awesome gym numbers, i get a sense that he's a playmaker who won't get enough volume to be a fantasy star.
If i see a guy who catches everything and is a contested catch stud but his 40 time sucks and he doesn't get a ton of separation, i want nothing to do with him. If i the same thing but with a good 40 and no mention of separation, I'm interested.
If i see a guy with elite 3 cone and he projects to be a slot guy i want the scouting report to say he's got incredible hands and runs polished routes. But if he's big and fast and can jump i can forgive him for running a limited route tree or having a bad 3 cone.
I like guys with an elite trait that matches their play style. Even better after the draft if that trait matches what the qb does well and who what is in their offense. Everyone wants the fast guy with the big armed quarterback but i like the only tall guy with the accurate quarterback, or the best route runner with the veteran quarterback, or the versatile guy who is pretty good at everything but not great at anything when he goes to a team with a veteran qb and a bunch of one trick ponies at receiver.
Same thing at running back but situation matters so much more at rb than other positions.
DK Metcalf is a cautionary tale about over relying on one trait.
To me the best use of the combine is to pair it with the scouting reports and understand what kind of guy someone is.
Like if i see Rondale Moore's scouting report saying he's able to do everything and run all over the field and then i see he's 5"7" but has tree trunk legs and awesome gym numbers, i get a sense that he's a playmaker who won't get enough volume to be a fantasy star.
If i see a guy who catches everything and is a contested catch stud but his 40 time sucks and he doesn't get a ton of separation, i want nothing to do with him. If i the same thing but with a good 40 and no mention of separation, I'm interested.
If i see a guy with elite 3 cone and he projects to be a slot guy i want the scouting report to say he's got incredible hands and runs polished routes. But if he's big and fast and can jump i can forgive him for running a limited route tree or having a bad 3 cone.
I like guys with an elite trait that matches their play style. Even better after the draft if that trait matches what the qb does well and who what is in their offense. Everyone wants the fast guy with the big armed quarterback but i like the only tall guy with the accurate quarterback, or the best route runner with the veteran quarterback, or the versatile guy who is pretty good at everything but not great at anything when he goes to a team with a veteran qb and a bunch of one trick ponies at receiver.
Same thing at running back but situation matters so much more at rb than other positions.
rockaction
Footballguy
There are movements afoot to say that the really good leagues draft before the draft. Ray G Que, the guy who does Development Devy - is one of the big proponents of it.
rockaction
Footballguy
Love this view. All things viewed in context, with the fullest information possible.
That's part of the combine's allure for me. I view it the same way you do, bostonfred.
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Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
That's what I thought and was my criticism of it. You're locked into the draft as much as the players are. Makes little sense, but those that advocate for pre-draft fantasy dynasty drafts argue that you won't take situation and make too big a deal of it, which will be a good thing when evaluating fantasy potential.
I disagree.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
this is exactly my early fear of Drake London, and why I am very eager to see his 40 time.
I already think he’s underweight for his size. If he’s also slow, he’s gonna be the biggest fool’s gold of this draft.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Mike Evans is my go to guy for contested catch player who actually worked out.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Amon-Ra st brown and Hunter Renfro are good recent examples of guys who aren't necessarily great they're just better than their peers at enough stuff that the qb has to throw to them
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
If it doesn't work out in football for Drake London at least he has a cool name in case he needs to go into adult movies. But the question would still remain whether he can go long and deep.
bostonfred
Footballguy
If you need two inches, I'll give you three
If you need four inches, I'll give you three
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Yeah - he’s also a bully at 6’5 230+
Going up against shorter, lighter corners - the average-to-decent ones just have no chance. The really good DBs haven’t typically fared much better against Evans.
so yeah, unless they’re tall and fast, or tall & built like Evans, just being tall isn’t nearly enough.
It does seem rare that contested catch ability alone gets it done, yet we seem to hear that attribute touted quite a bit. Seems like in college it works out much better against “future insurance salesmen”, but doesn’t usually translate to the NFL. So I’m always weary of that scouting report.
i am a big Evans fan, and it’s preposterous how disrespected he was value-wise in FF. All he did was go out and get 1000+ yards and a bucket of TD:s every year, and I couldn’t give the dude away in a trade to save my life until Brady came to town.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
This. If a team gets too wrapped up in measurables they are guaranteed to get the next Vernon Davis or the next David Njoku.... or more likely something in-between.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
The draft is my favorite part of the season and the combine is an important part of that.Man, I guess nobody is as excited for the combine as I am!! That just makes me special!
I always note the fallers at the combine and note the risers at the Senior Bowl. If a guy falls at the combine it's usually because he's smaller or less athletic or has an underlying health issue or may not have the attitude to deal with NFL coaches in the interviews or fails a drug test. Those are all pretty big red flags. At the Senior Bowl you get a chance to see how small school guys hold up to a higher level of competition and how they react to a higher level of coaching. That matters to me a great deal more than how fast a guy dances around cones. And when some guys drop at the combine it's important to note WHY he's dropping. If a guy moves like a glacier in the 40-yard-dash and he's an offensive lineman..... who cares?
So I enjoy the combine for what it is. It's kind of the last hurdle for your favorite draft prospect to avoid tripping over. Can't think of an instance where I was much higher on a guy coming out of the combine than I felt about him going in. Maybe if a big, route running WR suddenly ran faster than expected I might give him a bump because there is the potential for him to create more separation at the next level.
rockaction
Footballguy
Tyquan Thornton just ran a 4.21
Unofficial times, most of these. First-time stopwatch user on the NFL Network, according to Twitter, so grain of salt here.
Other notables:
Chris Olave - 4.26
Christian Watson - 4.28
Skyy Moore - 4.33
Garrett Wilson - 4.37
George Pickens - 4.40
Jahan Dotson - 4.41
Treylon Burks - 4.50
Sick times. This class is way, way better than people thought.
Unofficial times, most of these. First-time stopwatch user on the NFL Network, according to Twitter, so grain of salt here.
Other notables:
Chris Olave - 4.26
Christian Watson - 4.28
Skyy Moore - 4.33
Garrett Wilson - 4.37
George Pickens - 4.40
Jahan Dotson - 4.41
Treylon Burks - 4.50
Sick times. This class is way, way better than people thought.
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Galileo
Footballguy
Fast doesn't necessarily mean better. Doesn't hurt, but certainly does not guarantee success.
rockaction
Footballguy
I know. It's faster than people thought, though, which will likely lead to increases in draft capital for these offensive guys, who had been denigrated. As Ray Garvin said, don't reevaluate your evaluations. Let the NFL reevaluate and then draft capital will reflect what they think about it.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Jakob Sanderson (RTDB)
@FF_RTDB
·
2h
The winner of the 2022 NFL Scoutint Combine is 2nd round rookie picks.
________________________________________________________________________
No ####. I've got three.
@FF_RTDB
·
2h
The winner of the 2022 NFL Scoutint Combine is 2nd round rookie picks.
________________________________________________________________________
No ####. I've got three.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
i take these times with a huge grain of salt, considering some of the shenanigans - players reportedly cutting weight to run faster, clock manipulation, etc.
Eh. Imma wait for official times & more in-depth analysis. Also, it was always expected to be a deep receiver class, so I’m not seeing how it’s way better than people thought. If the WRs weren't good it would in fact be way worse than people thought.
And relative to other drafts, it still might be kinda meh.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
As far as the combine goes the measurements are at least useful. History has proven over and over again the 40 time does not equate to FF success.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Sure. Some teams overdraft / overvalue speedsters. Doesn’t make the class better. This class brings back memories of 2013. Except the QBs will go higher because the position is even more valuable now.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Important note you made IMO. Easy to get excited at the times but remember this is about playing the game. This class is one of the weaker ones that I can remember in awhile from my viewpoint. From a dynasty standpoint I would happy to convert any of these picks into next year, or at minimum trade down into the early to mid second round.
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