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Who should be the 2021 MVP favorite? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ghost Rider
- Start date
Deamon
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
ya. But I mean this poll was created (and likely most of the votes cast) in the thick of when Taylor was going off and the colts looked playoff bound.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Serious question: prior to Kupp, when it the last time a WR got a vote for MVP (in the AP, which is the one always acknowledged)?
Eh, it’s a fantasy football forum so of course lots of votes for the leading RB who was in the middle of a hot streak at the time. I argued against him and feel pretty vindicated now. He didn’t come anywhere close to the rushing record nor the TD record despite having an extra game in the season. Someone pointed to Taylor’s receiving numbers as some extra kicker but they were pedestrian and he was nearly non-existent in the passing game the last 5 games of the season.Deamon said:
IMO, Taylor lost the race in week 17 when he rushed for over 100 yards and the Colts still lost. The Colts face planting against the Jag’s and missing the playoffs was just the big exclamation point on it.
Taylor had a great year but nothing historic or even approaching historic about it, which is why he also lost the OPOY to Kupp.
The voters might finally be coming around to the fact that RBs are the least valuable position.
Hell, if Taylor had torn his ACL in week 1, what difference would that have made to the Colts? Instead of 9-8 they go 8-9, or 7-10?
Personally, I wouldn't have had Taylor in the top-10 of the MVP race, while fully acknowledging that he was the best RB this season, albeit in an extremely down year for the position.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Titans set the example here.
DH is the best in the game but when he was out the titans still beat the Rams abs 49ers. Of course they lost to the Steelers and Texans, and got smacked by the pats - but at least some of that is attributed to AJ brown’s injury. Which helps show the value of your top WR (and arguably helps show Kupp’a value).
-OZ-
Footballguy
23 years ago. Coincidentally, the same year I got married
which is, imo, entirely too long.
(For the mvp votes, not the marriage.)
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
MVP is more based on a team’s performance than a player’s. When the Colts faded down the stretch, any minuscule chance Taylor had of being MVP faded too. Short of a record breaking season, there was no chance. Rodgers and Brady both posted great numbers and were on top teams. That essentially locked out any other positions. For non-QBs to stand a legit shot, that player either needs to break a record or come really, really close. Taylor was probably DOA even if he set a new record, as voters don’t generally consider players from non-playoff teams. Non-QBs really need a perfect storm where the top NFL teams don’t have QBs with great seasons, perhaps due to injuries. Given the inflated passing totals these days, that’s a tough get for non-QBs. There will usually be guys on food teams n the 5K/40 total TD range, especially with a 16-game season.
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Im upset Henry and JT didn't cancel each other out.Truebluey said:
I was discussing this with some writers and it's wrong. You can't vote for (who others will vote for and) who I think will win. You vote for the MVP and let the chips fall. I was really frustrated at this vote.
I have no doubt I could find 10?20? voters praising Henry when he got injured and how huge a loss it was and the record pace etc. Same with JT and how he was behind Henry but kept churning and was super impressive.
Let's just vote Aaron because others will is so lame.
I llllove the passion of sports and hate whenever people remove it. I don't care who got them all fired up, vote for that guy.
Cowboys radio discussing Parsons and why didn't he get a vote. Totally agree too. They were instantly a top D- debatable statistically but clearly he worried the opposing offense and dramatically impacted the game and oh BTW they were pushovers the year before, at some points people thought they were contenders. I see Watt mentioned, prob with him too. How hard is it for me to find a reporter praising him as one of the best? Aaron Donald talk this week...c'mon vote how ya vote, not this join the masses stuff
Yeah, Henry not getting a single vote last year is not as shocking anymore after seeing D'onta Foreman of all guys put up solid numbers in his absence. Titans were Jekyll & Hyde this year but still were the number 1 seed for the AFC.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The last time a RB even got a vote was five seasons ago. The league is a passing league now, QBs drive the bus, and there usually is no shortage of QBs on good teams with great numbers.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Right. Which makes it surprising to me that no WR had received a vote in 23 years. No TE in over 35 (Bavaro in 86) Clearly QBs dominate, but they need to throw to someone.
more tidbits:
Sixteen MVPs went 0-1 in the playoffs, including Aaron Rodgers in 2021.
Fourteen MVPs won NFL championships, but none since Kurt Warner in 1999.
MVPs are 80-49 (.620) in the postseason.
Twenty-five MVPs advanced to the Super Bowl but more lost (15) than won (10). Nine lost in the conference championship, 13 lost in the divisional round, and three lost in the wild-card round.
Johnny Unitas and O.J. Simpson are the only two MVPs who missed the postseason. Unitas led the Baltimore Colts to an 11-1-2 record in 1964 but did not receive an automatic bid to the playoffs because of an 0-1-1 head-to-head record against the Los Angeles Rams, who also finished 11-1-2. Simpson and the Buffalo Bills finished 9-5 in 1973, losing the AFC East crown to the 12-2 Miami Dolphins and the lone wild-card spot to the 10-4 Pittsburgh Steelers.
Position Breakdown
At least two offensive linemen have received MVP votes: Larry Little in 1972 and Duane Putnam in 1957.
At least three kickers have received MVP votes: Mark Moseley, who won in 1982; Chester Marcol in 1972; and Lou Michaels (who also played defensive end) in 1962. (George Blanda also finished second in voting in 1970, but he was the Raiders’ quarterback as well as their kicker.)
At least one punter has received MVP votes: Ray Guy in 1977.
At least four tight ends have received MVP votes: Mark Bavaro in 1986, Kellen Winslow in 1981, John Mackey in 1968 and 1966, and Charlie Sanders in 1970.
At least 14 wide receivers have received MVP votes, and at least two have received votes more than once: Jerry Rice and Sterling Sharpe.
DropKick
Footballguy
Couldn't agree more. Just rinse and repeat. Rodgers was 10th in the league in passing yards this year. He had 19 TDs in games that were not the Lions, Bears or Vikings. That's your runaway winner? Bunch of sheep voting. Somebody reconcile this for me... With the Offensive Player of the Award, Kupp was recognized as having the most outstanding season. Yet, as expected, he really isn't in the MVP conversation. Is it time to redefine "valuable", especially with 14 teams making the play-offs, and the mediocre post season track record of MVP winners. For the record, with the contribution from his legs, I believe Josh Allen carried his team more than Rodgers.
We need less Aaron and more of this in the NFL
Anarchy99
Footballguy
We can debate this around and around in circles. It's difficult to keep winning if a QB goes down. Great players at other positions can go down and teams can still win. Jerry Rice went down for almost an entire season, and the Niners won more games without him. Derrick Henry this year was having a super human season, yet the Titans earned the #1 seed without him. Gronk blew out his knee, and the Patriots won the SB without him. Edelman blew out his knee, and the Patriots won the SB without him. Sterling Sharpe was on his way to a Rice-like career and suffered a career ending injury. The Packers won two more games without him the next year. Reggie Wayne got hurt, the Colts won the same number games without him.
Peyton had a neck problem and had to miss an entire season. The Colts won 2 games without him. Dan Marino missed almost a full year, the Dolphins missed the playoffs. Tom Brady missed a season, NE missed the playoffs. Aaron Rodgers missed half the year two times, and both years the Packers missed the playoffs.
That's a small sample size and there aren't a ton of situations to consider. But a long term injury to a QB is usually a death knell, while there have been times when an injury to a key non-QB was less impactful. What would have happened this year if Kupp got hurt and Woods didn't? We'll never know, but Beckham has been very productive in place of Woods. Would the Rams be in the SB without Kupp? Probably not, but they had enough pieces on offense that I still think they would have had a strong offense.
Peyton had a neck problem and had to miss an entire season. The Colts won 2 games without him. Dan Marino missed almost a full year, the Dolphins missed the playoffs. Tom Brady missed a season, NE missed the playoffs. Aaron Rodgers missed half the year two times, and both years the Packers missed the playoffs.
That's a small sample size and there aren't a ton of situations to consider. But a long term injury to a QB is usually a death knell, while there have been times when an injury to a key non-QB was less impactful. What would have happened this year if Kupp got hurt and Woods didn't? We'll never know, but Beckham has been very productive in place of Woods. Would the Rams be in the SB without Kupp? Probably not, but they had enough pieces on offense that I still think they would have had a strong offense.
DropKick
Footballguy
Of course, but its also true of 75% of teams in the league. You could say that none of the 14 teams that made the play-offs would have been there if their QB went down in week one.
While I get your overall point, NE missed the play-offs by an eyelash on 2008, and still won 10 or 11 games? And there were years when Gronk got hurt, that NE didn't win a SB. How about Godwin this year? I believe Tampa's season circled the drain after that injury.
And while I am a Kupp advocate, this beef is more about the idea that is virtually impossible for someone other than a QB/RB to win the award. The rare exceptions include true generational talents such as Lawrence Taylor
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I agree that it's both dumb and unfortunate that 98% of the league's players are out of the running for league MVP in August. Like you said, 75% of the teams in the league would be in trouble with a major QB injury. But that only showcases how valuable the QB position is. I am both agreeing with you and acknowledging the voters that nowadays think a team can't win without a QB. While NE missed the playoffs by an eyelash, they also won 5 fewer games with Cassel.
We can't guess what would have happened with Tampa this year had Godwin stayed healthy, but with a better defensive play call in the last few seconds, they could still be playing. They scored 27 points and Brady had 330 yards passing without him. Not having Godwin did not put the Bucs in a 27-3 hole. They were in a position to win even without him. Put another way, they got a lot farther without Godwin than they would have without Brady.
I don't have a solution for this dilemma. Maybe they need to create a Non-QB of the Year Award.
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Tau837
Footballguy
That is exactly the point. The way the game is constructed today, there is no position that comes close to the QB position in terms of value.
Just look at the salary cap. That is market-driven, and the market shows that QB is the most valuable position to which to allocate cap space, and it's not close.
You know this. It is obvious. What you really seem to want is a different award, something like Player with Season that Exceeded Expectations by the Largest Margin. But that's not the same as Most Valuable Player.
DropKick
Footballguy
Do me a favor and avoid putting words in my mouth.
Do I think Kupp was more valuable to his team this season than Rodgers was this season? Without a doubt and that might be proven later today.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
One of the other arguments (that I am not making but am just pointing out) is that a great WR season would not be possible without great QB play. Without Stafford, Kupp wouldn't have had the numbers he ended up with.
Kupp didn't have the same numbers and the Rams did not get as far with Goff. That then potentially makes the case that Stafford was the reason both Kupp and the Rams did better this year, and Stafford was the most valuable Rams player. I don't wholeheartedly agree with that, but I think there is at least some element of truth to that.
DropKick
Footballguy
There are lots of dependencies... Brady (or any QB) doesn't play at the same level when the line doesn't give him time. Some of Gronk's value came from his effectiveness as a blocker, which is also true of Kupp's game. But, yes, no player accomplishes anything by themselves.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Actually, it won't, because what happens in the postseason has ZERO impact on who wins the REGULAR SEASON MVP award, which has now been pointed out to you 44 times in this thread alone.
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Tau837
Footballguy
Do me a favor and lighten up. This is a friendly thread, don't turn it into something it isn't. If you disagree with my characterization, you have yet to provide a good explanation of why you are so stubbornly refusing to concede that QBs are inherently more valuable. Even in this post you quoted, you ignored the point about market forces.
The stance of those who have advocated for Kupp in this thread reminds me of a part of the great Hines Ward debates in this forum many years ago, related to the claim that he is the best blocking WR ever and that is why he should be in the HOF. I disagreed, and eventually broke it down into component parts to illustrate the point. We can do that with Kupp, or any player.
Kupp had 1965 YFS and 16 TDs this season. Credit for that production can be split somehow between:
- Kupp
- Stafford
- McVay and the other offensive coaches
- Offensive line, which held up well enough for Stafford to get the ball to Kupp
- Other targets, like Woods and Beckham, who drew some amount of defensive attention away from Kupp
- Running game, which was 6th in yards and 5th in YPC and drew some amount of defensive attention away from Kupp
- The quality of opposing pass defenses (or, sometimes, the lack thereof)
- Stafford
- Kupp, his primary target, both for his own success and for opening things up for others
- McVay and the other offensive coaches
- Offensive line
- Other targets, including Woods, Beckham, Jefferson, Higbee, and others
- Running game, which was 6th in yards and 5th in YPC and drew some amount of defensive attention away from the passing game
- The quality of opposing pass defenses (or, sometimes, the lack thereof)
Break it down for both of them, and which player between Stafford and Kupp deserves more total credit for the Rams offensive success and winning? It's pretty obvious to me that it's Stafford.
Think about the the game-winning drive against Tampa as one example that occurred in a clutch playoff situation. Stafford was sacked on the first play. He completed a 20 yard pass to Kupp on the second play. He completed a 44 yard pass to Kupp on the third play, despite being under pressure. He then got the offense lined up and spiked the ball with 5 seconds left for the game-winning FG. Which player deserves more credit on that drive, Stafford or Kupp? IMO it is Stafford.
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DropKick
Footballguy
DropKick
Footballguy
So, you want me to give the majority of the credit to Stafford when, on the plays not thrown to Kupp, he was sacked and spiked the ball? You're right, the spike was spectacular.
And, what is this lighten up crap? I simply told you not to words in my mouth. Nobody likes that.
Tau837
Footballguy
On the second play, Kupp ran a great route and Stafford threw a perfect pass to him. Equal credit, or close enough.
On the third play, the 44 yarder, the defense called a zero blitz, and Stafford had 3 guys in his face when he threw a perfect pass that went 50 yards in the air. Meanwhile, it was a blown coverage by Antoine Winfield. Kupp ran a simple go route and caught a ball that was placed perfectly on his hands.
Yes, more credit to Stafford than Kupp on the game-winning play, which was the 44 yarder.
I didn't do that. I said "What you really seem to want is a different award..." That isn't "putting words in your mouth."
-OZ-
Footballguy
If a player repeatedly puts a team on his back and dominates his position relative to peers then I think mvp votes are deservedlyHonestly, those of us who want to see players other than QB win awards will have to settle for D/OROY and super bowl MVP
