Who would you want to QB your team (1 Viewer)

[Reaper]

Stats are great but, I think we're missing perspective and what the league was like when Marino came to town....

I won't vouch for all the stats but here's a post from another board that I thought was great in explaining what Marino did:

When Marino was doing his thing back in 1983-87, the league had simply NEVER seen anything like it. I've have never---then, nor since---ever seen the football world hijacked by a QB's talent for throwing the football like that. It IS such a real shame that whatever he inherited from the 70's was about to expire. And then the Stephenson injury.

He started 9 games in 1983. Had in-season knee surgery. Came back and started the Pro Bowl. I think he played in 11 games that year total-------and threw 20 TDs.

He threw 26? TDs in strike-interrupted 1987. If you pro-rate that over 16 games, that's about 35 TDs. Pro-rate 1983, and you have maybe 32 TDs...

He threw 48 in 1984--------which was eclipsed by a guy in a dome hell bent on breaking it the very year NEW rules further liberated the passing game.

And nobody else has had 5,000 yards passing in a year, yet----and I'm amazed at this because of how fast the game is now and how even more further skewed the rules are for the offense.

He threw 30 in 1985 and 44 in 1986.

His 16-game average his 1st 5 years was about 38 TD passes per year. NOBODY in the history of the NFL had ever thrown more than 36 in a single season before that.

It would be like a batter hitting 60 homers 3 times and 70 twice in his 1st 5 years WITHOUT STEROIDS.

The guy was amazing. I'd put that 5-year run of excellence up against anyone. The fact that his Passer Rating is as high as it is------with no WCO and with everyone KNOWING he had to throw--------is absurd.

You just cited a bunch of stats, the majority of which were reflected in the original post which somehow "was missing perspective."

His 16-game average his 1st 5 years was about 38 TD passes per year. NOBODY in the history of the NFL had ever thrown more than 36 in a single season before that.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Throw those stats away. For starters defenses played a completely different game when Marino wasn't in there.... Defenses were scared ####less when Dan was playing almost like the feeling when playing Manning but worse.

If Manning gets hurt in the pre-season and Jim Sorgi throws for 4,000 yards, 28 TDs and 14 INTs, while Harrison and Wayne rank in the top five at their position and the Colts win 12 games...would you say that has no bearing on an evaluation of Manning's career?

No. Because I've seen Manning's career with my own two eyes and I know how he can read a defense and run an offense. Just like I saw what Marino can do and He's the 2nd best QB I've ever watched, next to Marino.I'd say Sorgi is looking at a Great career and contract upcoming if he performed that well... From what I saw of Mitchell in a far less amount of games you give Sorgi, I thought he was crap. No matter what stats he compliled, as a Jets fan, you could actually breathe while watching the game. There was absolutely no comparison in the way the stats were compiled. I bet Mitchell faced a few more prevent defenses a lot earlier than Dan would have.

I've seen Manning too, but it's hard to separate Manning from Harrison and to a lesser extent, Manning from Wayne. If Sorgi comes in and oVVns and then signs with the Browns and plays terribly, that will be a knock on Manning's career.Don't you think that Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis and Reuben Droughns did is a knock on TD's career? If no RB in Denver had rushed for 1,000 yards since 1998, Davis would probably be in the HOF by now. What Bulger and Green did when Warner was hurt absolutely hurt Warner's legacy, regardless of how many eyes you used to see Warner read a defense and run an offense.

 

[Chase Stuart]

You just cited a bunch of stats, the majority of which were reflected in the original post which somehow "was missing perspective."

His 16-game average his 1st 5 years was about 38 TD passes per year. NOBODY in the history of the NFL had ever thrown more than 36 in a single season before that.

I'm not really sure what the point is here. While slightly misleading, that statistic helps illustrate why Marino is one of the BOAT.

 

[dolfandave]

I found this thread through a really good football stat website and thought I would chime in. That site broke down the numbers pretty well and it showed the Marino has the slight edge in just about every category. So that, along with me being a Marino fan tilts it slightly in Marino's favor. Though you can't go wrong with either. Give me these two guys over anyone.

 

[dgreen]

Here's some evidence for the Favre backers to cite -- look at how Dolphins QBs performed when Marino was injured. In 1993, Marino had 150 pass attempts and averaged 7.76 AY/A that year. Obviously 150 is a pretty small sample size, and Marino's 6.56 and 6.48 AY/A in the years before and after might suggest that a full season out of Marino in 1993 would have produced an AY/A somewhat south of 7.76. Scott Mitchell had 233 pass attempts and averaged 6.58 AY/A that year; Steve Deberg had 188 attempts and averaged 6.74 AY/A. In other words, the second and third string Dolphins QBs in 1993 had higher AY/A numbers than Marino had in 1992 or 1994. Interesting.

Why in the world (other than your obvious Marino hatred) would you compare Mitchell's and Deberg's AY/A in 1993 to Marino's AY/A in 1992 and 1994? You also left out that Marino's '92 and '94 AY/A ranked 4th each year, while Mitchell's 1993 AY/A ranked 7th.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Here's some evidence for the Favre backers to cite -- look at how Dolphins QBs performed when Marino was injured. In 1993, Marino had 150 pass attempts and averaged 7.76 AY/A that year. Obviously 150 is a pretty small sample size, and Marino's 6.56 and 6.48 AY/A in the years before and after might suggest that a full season out of Marino in 1993 would have produced an AY/A somewhat south of 7.76. Scott Mitchell had 233 pass attempts and averaged 6.58 AY/A that year; Steve Deberg had 188 attempts and averaged 6.74 AY/A. In other words, the second and third string Dolphins QBs in 1993 had higher AY/A numbers than Marino had in 1992 or 1994. Interesting.So how good were Mitchell and Deberg? It's not very easy to say, unfortunately. In 1994 Mitchell was terrible, and had -352 adjusted yards. But in 1995 he had 742 adjusted yards, which ranked second in the league behind Brett Favre. For the remainder of his career, Mitchell played at an average (and below average) level. Deberg was nearly 40 years old during the 1993 season, and played poorly with the Bucs in 1992 and even worse for Tampa in 1993. But once he joined the Dolphins in mid-1993, Deberg was much, much better, and was an above average QB (statistically). He and Marino both averaged 8.1 unadjusted yards per attempt that season.That's the biggest chunk of evidence we have as to how much credit Marino deserves vis-a-vis his Dolphins teammates for his statistical success. While it's far from conclusive, it doesn't put Marino in a great light.

Chase, you gave two unbiased nuggets of information. Good job. The one above might not have the correct conclusion though. Marino didn't miss many games in his career and the sample is pretty small and not very statistically valid. Further, you should look at who Miami played and then compare as well. One thing I do remember is thinking that Scott Mitchell was very hot and cold. I am not sure if there were some real lucky plays, but I remember thinking that this guy was really inconsistent. (I watch every Dolphin game) BTW, how do you not take picks and TD's into account? If I remember correctly the Dolphins lost the last 5 games of the year after being 9-2 and didn't make the playoffs without Marino. 1993 stats

| Steve Deberg		 |  5 | 113 188  60.1 1521  8.1  6  7 |   4   -4  0 || Dan Marino		   |  5 |  91 150  60.7 1218  8.1  8  3 |   9   -4  1 |  95.9 passer rating| Scott Mitchell	   | 13 | 133 233  57.1 1773  7.6 12  8 |  21   89  0	84.2 passer rating

The 2nd info you gave surrounded Marino's and Favres best years. While it did show that Marino had more "great" years or a higher percentage, if Favre plays at a high level for another 3 years he should gget credit for that even if they weren't peak years (as long as they are good years)

 

[Liquid Tension]

BTW, I know that everyone has been force fed the Favre intangible argument for the last decade and a half by TV talking heads, but Marino takes a back seat to one in this regard.

I agree. People remember a hobbled Marino at the end of his career with a bad offense around him and forget how dominant he was. His OL was awful in his final year, but if he had some time and people to throw to, he would have still been effective. The Dolphins were so desperate for a RB they were using Cecil Collins. The Dolphins used 5 RB's in 1999 (last year and ONLY year he had more picks that TD's) and not ONE of them could average more than 3.5 yards per carry. I believe that Oronde Gadsden may have been one of his top WR threats as well. ouch!Even in Marino's last 2 years The Dolphins made it to the playoffs with no offense (his defense was solid) and won one game before being knocked out by MUCH better teams. I really don't see how anyone who really watched him play could not put him in the top 5 of all time and as I said, I have him at #2.

I'm pretty sure the Packers used five different RB's in 2005 and the offensive line was really decimated by injuries/Free Agency and Brett's numbers showed that. So if you give Marino a pass with that year, Brett also deserves one for his 2005 outing. You said Marino still had something left and he probably did, but so does Brett and he is still playing.I don't think Marino's or Favre's greatness diminishes the other. I think both are/were great qb's and I'd take either one over almost anyone. I'd would just prefer to have Favre.

Yes, I would agree that the 2005 year the talent around Favre was not good. Now imagine if that level of talent was around favre his entire career. People would not see him as even a top 20 QB and something is wrong with that type of thinking. Point is that people put don't recognize how important the team around the QB is for the success the QB has. QB's with more talented teams are overrated and QB's with less talented teams are underrated.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Throw those stats away. For starters defenses played a completely different game when Marino wasn't in there.... Defenses were scared ####less when Dan was playing almost like the feeling when playing Manning but worse.

If Manning gets hurt in the pre-season and Jim Sorgi throws for 4,000 yards, 28 TDs and 14 INTs, while Harrison and Wayne rank in the top five at their position and the Colts win 12 games...would you say that has no bearing on an evaluation of Manning's career?

I would think it does have some impact as it shows that the team around Manning was so good that "anyone" could step in and dominate. That being said, Marino was better than Mitchell by almost every stat in 93 and was 4-1 in terms of record. BTW, can you imagine what Marino could have done with Harrison and Wayne and Edge playing indoors? Clayton and Duper were just barely better than the amigos, but Marino made them much better. Clearly Harrison is the best of the bunch but I think Wayne was definitely better than Clayton.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Throw those stats away. For starters defenses played a completely different game when Marino wasn't in there.... Defenses were scared ####less when Dan was playing almost like the feeling when playing Manning but worse.

If Manning gets hurt in the pre-season and Jim Sorgi throws for 4,000 yards, 28 TDs and 14 INTs, while Harrison and Wayne rank in the top five at their position and the Colts win 12 games...would you say that has no bearing on an evaluation of Manning's career?

I would think it does have some impact as it shows that the team around Manning was so good that "anyone" could step in and dominate. That being said, Marino was better than Mitchell by almost every stat in 93 and was 4-1 in terms of record. BTW, can you imagine what Marino could have done with Harrison and Wayne and Edge playing indoors? Clayton and Duper were just barely better than the amigos, but Marino made them much better. Clearly Harrison is the best of the bunch but I think Wayne was definitely better than Clayton.

C'mon let's get some discussion; only 232 votes?

 

[Liquid Tension]

Throw those stats away. For starters defenses played a completely different game when Marino wasn't in there.... Defenses were scared ####less when Dan was playing almost like the feeling when playing Manning but worse.

If Manning gets hurt in the pre-season and Jim Sorgi throws for 4,000 yards, 28 TDs and 14 INTs, while Harrison and Wayne rank in the top five at their position and the Colts win 12 games...would you say that has no bearing on an evaluation of Manning's career?

I would think it does have some impact as it shows that the team around Manning was so good that "anyone" could step in and dominate. That being said, Marino was better than Mitchell by almost every stat in 93 and was 4-1 in terms of record. BTW, can you imagine what Marino could have done with Harrison and Wayne and Edge playing indoors? Clayton and Duper were just barely better than the amigos, but Marino made them much better. Clearly Harrison is the best of the bunch but I think Wayne was definitely better than Clayton.

C'mon let's get some discussion; only 232 votes?

237. How much credit should suporting cast be added or taken away when comparing who is better?

 

[Reaper]

237. How much credit should suporting cast be added or taken away when comparing who is better?

How do the "Era's" in the NFL differ?Did Marino have satellite images and Head sets?What were the QB's peers doing at the same time?Were the rules much different? Players Much faster?Farve really hasn't been that good in quite some time and his errors in judgement have been atrocious at the worst times.... Again, I'm shocked this is even close. SHOCKED. But, the Farve love has gone on for quite some time and I think people are trying to remember the good Farve way too much. Funny how Manning has his haters and Farve seems to be above it all to the point where he's compared to the greatest QB's.

 

[pizzatyme]

Marino by a lot! Farve is great but I echo the sentiment that he plays somewhat recklessly.

Marino would dominate given the same players around him as Favre.

Now, if you said it was a team with poor pass blocking, then it tips the scales to Favre.

 

[Challenge Everything]

Favre... by a lot. He has won games that the Packers would have lost... he has also lost game that the Packers could have won but imo he has won more of the games the Packers could have lost than lost the games the Packers could have won.

With Favre the skies the limit... with Marino the limit was the sky.

 

[pizzatyme]

Favre... by a lot. He has won games that the Packers would have lost... he has also lost game that the Packers could have won but imo he has won more of the games the Packers could have lost than lost the games the Packers could have won.With Favre the skies the limit... with Marino the limit was the sky.

Yeah, it's a shame Marino never won any games that his team would have lost without him.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Favre... by a lot. He has won games that the Packers would have lost... he has also lost game that the Packers could have won but imo he has won more of the games the Packers could have lost than lost the games the Packers could have won.With Favre the skies the limit... with Marino the limit was the sky.

 

[phthalatemagic]

Favre... by a lot. He has won games that the Packers would have lost... he has also lost game that the Packers could have won but imo he has won more of the games the Packers could have lost than lost the games the Packers could have won.With Favre the skies the limit... with Marino the limit was the sky.

I think it means Taoists prefer Favre?

 

[Iron Mike Tomczak]

I earlier defended Favre but I must admit, Marino's fake spike against the NYJ was brilliant.

 

[Reaper]

I earlier defended Favre but I must admit, Marino's fake spike against the NYJ was brilliant.

Actually - I think that was the most overhyped player EVER....The Jets held a big lead in that game and Miami and Marino came storming back. Not everyone remembers that Marino was almost letter perfect in the fourth quarter, 15 for 18 with 164 yards and 2 TDs to bring the Phins back...(NO INTS Farve lovers) To me THAT was the story. Finally, Miami and Marino marched all the way down to what the 3 yard line looking to take the lead - As a Jets fan who has seen and respected what Marino does his whole career, the Game was already over - the only question was "The How" for the final blow - THE COMEBACK was the story... Jet fans hearts were already ripped out, it's as if your baseball team just lost due to a game winning Grand Slam in the 9th innning BUT WAIT, check it out, the batter did a pirouette before he touched home plate - Lets' call it the "Pirouette Game".... Not quite but, believe me, that game was OVER. So, it happened a few seconds earlier with "The Fake Spike".. Sheesh, by that time Jet fans already jumped off the bridge.. The Bigger story would have been Marino marching all the way down, coming all the way back, and NOT winning that game.. But, the whole novelty thing was there.... The CB's didn't stop playing, I don't think it was THAT shocking, it was just a play and a play that worked and If it didn't, Jets still lose - no difference to a Jet fan.

 

[Iron Mike Tomczak]

I earlier defended Favre but I must admit, Marino's fake spike against the NYJ was brilliant.

Actually - I think that was the most overhyped player EVER....The Jets held a big lead in that game and Miami and Marino came storming back. Not everyone remembers that Marino was almost letter perfect in the fourth quarter, 15 for 18 with 164 yards and 2 TDs to bring the Phins back...(NO INTS Farve lovers) To me THAT was the story. Finally, Miami and Marino marched all the way down to what the 3 yard line looking to take the lead - As a Jets fan who has seen and respected what Marino does his whole career, the Game was already over - the only question was "The How" for the final blow - THE COMEBACK was the story... Jet fans hearts were already ripped out, it's as if your baseball team just lost due to a game winning Grand Slam in the 9th innning BUT WAIT, check it out, the batter did a pirouette before he touched home plate - Lets' call it the "Pirouette Game".... Not quite but, believe me, that game was OVER. So, it happened a few seconds earlier with "The Fake Spike".. Sheesh, by that time Jet fans already jumped off the bridge.. The Bigger story would have been Marino marching all the way down, coming all the way back, and NOT winning that game.. But, the whole novelty thing was there.... The CB's didn't stop playing, I don't think it was THAT shocking, it was just a play and a play that worked and If it didn't, Jets still lose - no difference to a Jet fan.

Sorry to touch a tender spot there, but I enjoyed your perspective nonethelessMarino / Favre = TomAto , Tomato.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I earlier defended Favre but I must admit, Marino's fake spike against the NYJ was brilliant.

Actually - I think that was the most overhyped player EVER....

The Jets held a big lead in that game and Miami and Marino came storming back. Not everyone remembers that Marino was almost letter perfect in the fourth quarter, 15 for 18 with 164 yards and 2 TDs to bring the Phins back...(NO INTS Farve lovers) To me THAT was the story. Finally, Miami and Marino marched all the way down to what the 3 yard line looking to take the lead - As a Jets fan who has seen and respected what Marino does his whole career, the Game was already over - the only question was "The How" for the final blow - THE COMEBACK was the story... Jet fans hearts were already ripped out, it's as if your baseball team just lost due to a game winning Grand Slam in the 9th innning BUT WAIT, check it out, the batter did a pirouette before he touched home plate - Lets' call it the "Pirouette Game".... Not quite but, believe me, that game was OVER. So, it happened a few seconds earlier with "The Fake Spike".. Sheesh, by that time Jet fans already jumped off the bridge.. The Bigger story would have been Marino marching all the way down, coming all the way back, and NOT winning that game.. But, the whole novelty thing was there.... The CB's didn't stop playing, I don't think it was THAT shocking, it was just a play and a play that worked and If it didn't, Jets still lose - no difference to a Jet fan.

Sorry to touch a tender spot there, but I enjoyed your perspective nonethelessMarino / Favre = TomAto , Tomato.

That would be "toe mate o" or "toe mott o" or for those with children, the movie Cars is "To Mater" without the "ta" I do think there is a difference though and the above by Reaper is a good microcosm of why. I said previously something like Favre was a top notch QB and he was, but Marino is elite in my eyes. While Reaper and many Jet fans knew it was over, if it were Favre, an INT could have still happened (because it did at times like that). They both had comebacks, but Marino did so without the "dumb" picks.

The game was also a good example of Miami's defense putting them in a big hole and with a defense playing almost exclusively in the dime and only worrying about Marino he still delivered. Those situation are where QB's rack of yards, but also int's. Marino was amazing.

The funny thing was there were many times the Dolphins fell behind because they tried to establish the run early. Finally after being down 14-3 or something they would say, OK Dan get it done. One of the few times they let Marino go from the beginning was against the 85 Bears. The amazing thing was that Bears had allowed only THREE points in total over their last 3 games with the last two being shut outs. Marino and the Dolphins put up 38! Man, if Marino has a solid defense he would have had many rings and those who think the rings make a difference would have given him his due. Maybe seeing Manning get a ring when he played just OK in the playoffs will be enough for people to open their eyes and realize that a decent running attack and a defense play a huge role in getting rings. I doubt it though as too many people just don't get it.

 

[Reaper]

I earlier defended Favre but I must admit, Marino's fake spike against the NYJ was brilliant.

Actually - I think that was the most overhyped player EVER....

The Jets held a big lead in that game and Miami and Marino came storming back. Not everyone remembers that Marino was almost letter perfect in the fourth quarter, 15 for 18 with 164 yards and 2 TDs to bring the Phins back...(NO INTS Farve lovers) To me THAT was the story. Finally, Miami and Marino marched all the way down to what the 3 yard line looking to take the lead - As a Jets fan who has seen and respected what Marino does his whole career, the Game was already over - the only question was "The How" for the final blow - THE COMEBACK was the story... Jet fans hearts were already ripped out, it's as if your baseball team just lost due to a game winning Grand Slam in the 9th innning BUT WAIT, check it out, the batter did a pirouette before he touched home plate - Lets' call it the "Pirouette Game".... Not quite but, believe me, that game was OVER. So, it happened a few seconds earlier with "The Fake Spike".. Sheesh, by that time Jet fans already jumped off the bridge.. The Bigger story would have been Marino marching all the way down, coming all the way back, and NOT winning that game.. But, the whole novelty thing was there.... The CB's didn't stop playing, I don't think it was THAT shocking, it was just a play and a play that worked and If it didn't, Jets still lose - no difference to a Jet fan.

Sorry to touch a tender spot there, but I enjoyed your perspective nonethelessMarino / Favre = TomAto , Tomato.

That would be "toe mate o" or "toe mott o" or for those with children, the movie Cars is "To Mater" without the "ta" I do think there is a difference though and the above by Reaper is a good microcosm of why. I said previously something like Favre was a top notch QB and he was, but Marino is elite in my eyes. While Reaper and many Jet fans knew it was over, if it were Favre, an INT could have still happened (because it did at times like that). They both had comebacks, but Marino did so without the "dumb" picks.

The game was also a good example of Miami's defense putting them in a big hole and with a defense playing almost exclusively in the dime and only worrying about Marino he still delivered. Those situation are where QB's rack of yards, but also int's. Marino was amazing.

The funny thing was there were many times the Dolphins fell behind because they tried to establish the run early. Finally after being down 14-3 or something they would say, OK Dan get it done. One of the few times they let Marino go from the beginning was against the 85 Bears. The amazing thing was that Bears had allowed only THREE points in total over their last 3 games with the last two being shut outs. Marino and the Dolphins put up 38! Man, if Marino has a solid defense he would have had many rings and those who think the rings make a difference would have given him his due. Maybe seeing Manning get a ring when he played just OK in the playoffs will be enough for people to open their eyes and realize that a decent running attack and a defense play a huge role in getting rings. I doubt it though as too many people just don't get it.

Not to pick on anyone.. And it Only makes me feel older (we're talking DAN MARINO here, it wasn't THAT long ago) but, I have a feeling the majority of voters here and people in general saw ALL of Brett Farve's career and only the last few years of Dan's...... Chase had his birthdate in his profile and again, not to pick but, no way in hell would I enter a Unitas thread or a Namath thread and try to compare two players from different era's based on numbers....... I'm a Jets fan but, I never saw Namath, except for the Brady Bunch episode so, I'll just take it for what it's worth from someone who saw him....