Why didn't Marino go to more superbowls? (1 Viewer)

[dgreen]

I was just thinking the other day that when a great QB is coupled with a great coach, you get multiple SB wins - IMO, that's the distinction between Manning and Brady. Extend that thought, and it holds true for the most part - the QB's we consider "great" almost always had great coaches...and multiple titles. Except for Marino/Shula. Here is a great QB and a great coach, together for a really long time, and very little hardware to show for it.

Or maybe when we see multiple SB wins, we just assume it's a great coach and great QB.

I give coaches much more credit for wins and losses than QBs. I don't think multiple SB wins should automatically make us think that a QB is great.

Also, this conversation has the problem of where people draw the line for "greatness". Two people could each rank Marino, for example, as the 10th best QB all time and one person will say that makes him "great" and the other will say he's not "great". So they argue back and forth about whether he was "great" or not, all while not realizing they both place him at the same place in history.

 

[Todem]

Mostly bad defenses and mediocre rushing attacks.

I didn't really watch the majority of his career. But looks like he only had 5 defenses out of the top 20 by points and 6 outside of the top 17 and he did have 5 top 10 defenses (again by points allowed). He didn't have top tier defenses, but they were average most of the time. Were they much worse than the numbers or is that more of a narrative because he did worse than we think he should have?

They never had great defenses. Good defenses? Yes. But Super Bowl caliber defenses? Never had one in the Marino years. The Killer Bee's lost their sting after our loss to the Redskins in the 82 Super Bowl. My heart still aches from that Riggins run where Don McNeil slipped while going in motion.....and that was the only reason he whiffed the tackle. Arrrrrr. I hate Theisman......Arrrrrr.

Needless to say, if you watched every game of his career (and I was able to watch every game of his career here in Miami in person I may add) you would have been blown away at the skill set this guy brought to the gridiron. I have never seen a passer like him since. When Jimmy came to town and ran Kareem Abdul Jabbar 42 times a game......I gave up my season tickets. I get Jimmy tried to add balance.....but you can't do it with garbage talent at RB. He handcuffed Marino and wrecked our offense. It was horrible to watch. Just ugly crappy football. And it has been ever since Marino retired.

The closet thing I have seen to Marino in all honesty was Favre. Another giant IMO at the position. And for the record Phillip Rivers reminds me of Marino in how he carries himself on the field and his release. I distinctly remember when Marino was VP of football operations for all of 3 weeks here (maybe it was shorter) he was all over trying to get Rivers in the draft. He loved that kid out of college.

 

[cstu]

cstu Whats a good comparison from todays QB's

I'm thinking to a degree, perhaps Brees...

Obviously New Orleans defense can be scored on and quickly..

So it aint so bad if the Offense puts up a few yards..

Also obviously (imho) Brees plays smarter.. I don't see so much desperation in his play..

OP Did you watch Marino play?

Honestly I wasn't his biggest fan, so I didn't see as much.. I do like Air Shows though!

Two parts:

1984-86 - Peyton Manning at his peak

Rest of his career - Tony Romo

IMO Marino peaked way too early and regressed

 

[cstu]

The closet thing I have seen to Marino in all honesty was Favre. Another giant IMO at the position. And for the record Phillip Rivers reminds me of Marino in how he carries himself on the field and his release. I distinctly remember when Marino was VP of football operations for all of 3 weeks here (maybe it was shorter) he was all over trying to get Rivers in the draft. He loved that kid out of college.

Agree with both Favre and Rivers after 1986.

 

[Todem]

I was just thinking the other day that when a great QB is coupled with a great coach, you get multiple SB wins - IMO, that's the distinction between Manning and Brady. Extend that thought, and it holds true for the most part - the QB's we consider "great" almost always had great coaches...and multiple titles. Except for Marino/Shula. Here is a great QB and a great coach, together for a really long time, and very little hardware to show for it.

Or maybe when we see multiple SB wins, we just assume it's a great coach and great QB.

I give coaches much more credit for wins and losses than QBs. I don't think multiple SB wins should automatically make us think that a QB is great.

Also, this conversation has the problem of where people draw the line for "greatness". Two people could each rank Marino, for example, as the 10th best QB all time and one person will say that makes him "great" and the other will say he's not "great". So they argue back and forth about whether he was "great" or not, all while not realizing they both place him at the same place in history.

I don't care where people rank him number wise. But I think it is widely accepted he is looked at as one of the great all time QB's in the NFL by many inside the game.

 

[Bills_Fan11]

This so called era of the salary cap and "parity" has created unintended consequences. Because the discrepancy of best vs worst rosters was greater back then, QBs could only do so much. Thus it's easier for Luck to overcome being saddled with the ~23rd best roster than it was for Marino.

Also a touch of bad luck. They had a really good team in '90 and ran into a buzzsaw in the snow, even while putting up 30+ pts. '92 was the one year they were as good as the Bills with a decent defense and they pretty much gave away the title game with turnovers and not being able to defend a screen pass. By the time JJ got there he had seen better days.

 

[Godsbrother]

There were rumors in the mid 90s that the Steelers were putting out feelers to Marino's agent about him possibly signing as a FA. Marino, being from Pittsburgh and playing with Pitt was tempted but ultimately chose to the sign an extension with the Dolphins.

Nothing is guaranteed I gotta think that Marino would have a ring had he chosen to play for Cowher's Steelers teams in 1994-1997.

 

[moleculo]

I was just thinking the other day that when a great QB is coupled with a great coach, you get multiple SB wins - IMO, that's the distinction between Manning and Brady. Extend that thought, and it holds true for the most part - the QB's we consider "great" almost always had great coaches...and multiple titles. Except for Marino/Shula. Here is a great QB and a great coach, together for a really long time, and very little hardware to show for it.

Or maybe when we see multiple SB wins, we just assume it's a great coach and great QB.

I give coaches much more credit for wins and losses than QBs. I don't think multiple SB wins should automatically make us think that a QB is great.

Also, this conversation has the problem of where people draw the line for "greatness". Two people could each rank Marino, for example, as the 10th best QB all time and one person will say that makes him "great" and the other will say he's not "great". So they argue back and forth about whether he was "great" or not, all while not realizing they both place him at the same place in history.

That's true. If Marino had a title or two, he would be indisputably regarded as one of the best of all time.

 

[I Am the Stig]

Mostly bad defenses and mediocre rushing attacks.

I didn't really watch the majority of his career. But looks like he only had 5 defenses out of the top 20 by points and 6 outside of the top 17 and he did have 5 top 10 defenses (again by points allowed). He didn't have top tier defenses, but they were average most of the time. Were they much worse than the numbers or is that more of a narrative because he did worse than we think he should have?

They never had great defenses. Good defenses? Yes. But Super Bowl caliber defenses? Never had one in the Marino years. The Killer Bee's lost their sting after our loss to the Redskins in the 82 Super Bowl. My heart still aches from that Riggins run where Don McNeil slipped while going in motion.....and that was the only reason he whiffed the tackle. Arrrrrr. I hate Theisman......Arrrrrr.Needless to say, if you watched every game of his career (and I was able to watch every game of his career here in Miami in person I may add) you would have been blown away at the skill set this guy brought to the gridiron. I have never seen a passer like him since. When Jimmy came to town and ran Kareem Abdul Jabbar 42 times a game......I gave up my season tickets. I get Jimmy tried to add balance.....but you can't do it with garbage talent at RB. He handcuffed Marino and wrecked our offense. It was horrible to watch. Just ugly crappy football. And it has been ever since Marino retired.

The closet thing I have seen to Marino in all honesty was Favre. Another giant IMO at the position. And for the record Phillip Rivers reminds me of Marino in how he carries himself on the field and his release. I distinctly remember when Marino was VP of football operations for all of 3 weeks here (maybe it was shorter) he was all over trying to get Rivers in the draft. He loved that kid out of college.

I hadn't thought of Rivers as a comp to Marino but their mechanics are very similar.

Marino's release always seemed like the wrist flick a catcher would use to throw out a runner at second base.

He never had to move the ball much behind his shoulder. The ball just went up and FLICK!!! It was gone.

 

[VaTerp]

He has no right being mentioned in conversations with names such as Montana, Brady, Elway and belongs more in conversations with guys in the Drew Brees tier.

Ridiculously off base IMO.

People need to look at what Marino did in relation to the era he played in. When he was the first to go over 5,000 yards and threw 48 TDs in 1984 only 2 other QBs even threw for 4,000 yards and only 1 other QB had more than 28 TDs (32 being the 2nd highest). When Brees broke his yardage record nearly 20 years later there were 10 QBs with over 4,000 yards.

Marino is without a doubt a top 5 all time QB IMO and perhaps THE best pure passers the league has ever seen. As discussed above his lack of rings and Super Bowl appearances was due to a combination of things. A lot has to go right for teams to win Super Bowls and its unfortunate that Marino was never on a TEAM that was good enough to win it all.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

People still don't have perspective when it comes to the era these guys played in. In 1984, the year Dan Marino threw 48 touchdowns (3 per game), teams averaged 1.37 touchdown passes per game.

 

[zftcg]

He was overrated

No he wasn't, lol. The reason he didn't go to more Super Bowls is the same reason Peyton Manning didn't go to more Super Bowls with Indy. Their teams stock piled weapons on offense but never really addressed the defense and in Miami's case add the running game to the mix in addition to the defense.

next.

He was a great QB, but he was imho a wee bit overrated for the very reasons\excuses you list for their failure to win championships. Neither were as good as their inflated regular season statistics might suggest and neither were\are as bad as their playoff futility would indicate. Yep, a good part of the reason for their playoff failures was their teams primary focus being on offense, but it was (in part) that very same focus that paved the way for them to produce over inflated regular season stats.

He has never been overrated, in fact he has always been criticized for his lack of championships and championship appearances.

If you are implying that Marino's stats were inflated I suspect you didn't watch much football in the 80's. The game was different then and every bit of Marino's skill set would flourish in todays game. The only thing he lack was mobility but his decision making and quick release more than made up for that. His accuracy is on par with the leagues best today as well.

Marino's best seasons by far were in the 80s.

Marino's legacy is totally linked to his incredible second season. Other than the two seasons following, the rest of his career is more stat compiling than anything. I'm not sure if the early success went to his head or the MIA organization totally hosed him in terms of personnel, but after 1986, he never passed for more than 30 TDs again. For the three year span of 84 thru 86, Marino was amazing, must see TV (I still think about the rollouts vs. Chicago to spoil their bid at 16-0 as one of the greatest coached games I've ever watched) but after that, he was a crankier Drew Bledsoe. You can't take that stretch from him, but he was never as good as he was early in his career.

Yeah, but how amazing is that stretch in retrospect? It's stunning looking at the career stats of all those HOF QBs from the '80s and realizing how rarely they hit 30. Marino threw for 48 in '84 and 44 in '86. Over the next two decades, Warner was the only QB to even reach 40, which he did once in '99. (Then the game changed and we had Peyton '04, Brady '07, Peyton '13, etc.) For Marino to do that in a far more conservative NFL was almost like if Babe Ruth had hit his 60 HRs in the Deadball Era. He was really ahead of his time.

 

[johnadams]

He has no right being mentioned in conversations with names such as Montana, Brady, Elway and belongs more in conversations with guys in the Drew Brees tier.

Ridiculously off base IMO.

People need to look at what Marino did in relation to the era he played in. When he was the first to go over 5,000 yards and threw 48 TDs in 1984 only 2 other QBs even threw for 4,000 yards and only 1 other QB had more than 28 TDs (32 being the 2nd highest). When Brees broke his yardage record nearly 20 years later there were 10 QBs with over 4,000 yards.

Marino is without a doubt a top 5 all time QB IMO and perhaps THE best pure passers the league has ever seen. As discussed above his lack of rings and Super Bowl appearances was due to a combination of things. A lot has to go right for teams to win Super Bowls and its unfortunate that Marino was never on a TEAM that was good enough to win it all.

One thing that needs to happen is that the QB needs to bring his game to the next level in the playoffs. Guys like Montana, Aikman and Brady have better stats almost across the board during the playoffs when they need to. Guys like Marino and Peyton have worse stats. Granted, QBs don't control everything, but they control enough that they should be held accountable when they aren't getting it done in the playoffs.

 

[VaTerp]

He was overrated

No he wasn't, lol. The reason he didn't go to more Super Bowls is the same reason Peyton Manning didn't go to more Super Bowls with Indy. Their teams stock piled weapons on offense but never really addressed the defense and in Miami's case add the running game to the mix in addition to the defense.

next.

He was a great QB, but he was imho a wee bit overrated for the very reasons\excuses you list for their failure to win championships. Neither were as good as their inflated regular season statistics might suggest and neither were\are as bad as their playoff futility would indicate. Yep, a good part of the reason for their playoff failures was their teams primary focus being on offense, but it was (in part) that very same focus that paved the way for them to produce over inflated regular season stats.

He has never been overrated, in fact he has always been criticized for his lack of championships and championship appearances.

If you are implying that Marino's stats were inflated I suspect you didn't watch much football in the 80's. The game was different then and every bit of Marino's skill set would flourish in todays game. The only thing he lack was mobility but his decision making and quick release more than made up for that. His accuracy is on par with the leagues best today as well.

Marino's best seasons by far were in the 80s.

Marino's legacy is totally linked to his incredible second season. Other than the two seasons following, the rest of his career is more stat compiling than anything. I'm not sure if the early success went to his head or the MIA organization totally hosed him in terms of personnel, but after 1986, he never passed for more than 30 TDs again. For the three year span of 84 thru 86, Marino was amazing, must see TV (I still think about the rollouts vs. Chicago to spoil their bid at 16-0 as one of the greatest coached games I've ever watched) but after that, he was a crankier Drew Bledsoe. You can't take that stretch from him, but he was never as good as he was early in his career.

Yeah, but how amazing is that stretch in retrospect? It's stunning looking at the career stats of all those HOF QBs from the '80s and realizing how rarely they hit 30. Marino threw for 48 in '84 and 44 in '86. Over the next two decades, Warner was the only QB to even reach 40, which he did once in '99. (Then the game changed and we had Peyton '04, Brady '07, Peyton '13, etc.) For Marino to do that in a far more conservative NFL was almost like if Babe Ruth had hit his 60 HRs in the Deadball Era. He was really ahead of his time.

Exactly.

And saying Marino never threw for more than 30 TDs after 86 is again not recognizing context.

From 87' 93' there were a grand total of 4 QB seasons with more than 30 TDs. 3 of those 6 years NO QB threw for more than 30. And from 94-99', the last 6 seasons of his career, there was an average of about 2 QBs per season throwing for more than 30 TDs.

Throwing out the 30 TD bench mark in 2015 is very different than it was in the 80s and 90s.

 

[VaTerp]

He has no right being mentioned in conversations with names such as Montana, Brady, Elway and belongs more in conversations with guys in the Drew Brees tier.

Ridiculously off base IMO.

People need to look at what Marino did in relation to the era he played in. When he was the first to go over 5,000 yards and threw 48 TDs in 1984 only 2 other QBs even threw for 4,000 yards and only 1 other QB had more than 28 TDs (32 being the 2nd highest). When Brees broke his yardage record nearly 20 years later there were 10 QBs with over 4,000 yards.

Marino is without a doubt a top 5 all time QB IMO and perhaps THE best pure passers the league has ever seen. As discussed above his lack of rings and Super Bowl appearances was due to a combination of things. A lot has to go right for teams to win Super Bowls and its unfortunate that Marino was never on a TEAM that was good enough to win it all.

One thing that needs to happen is that the QB needs to bring his game to the next level in the playoffs. Guys like Montana, Aikman and Brady have better stats almost across the board during the playoffs when they need to. Guys like Marino and Peyton have worse stats. Granted, QBs don't control everything, but they control enough that they should be held accountable when they aren't getting it done in the playoffs.

Fair point but I would argue that a lot of the statistical success in a function of the teams around them. Its easier to put up better stats in the playoffs when playing with the lead, throwing to the all time leading WR, handing off to the all time leading rusher, and put in good gameflow situations by your defense.

Marino certainly could have elevated his play more than he did in the playoffs and that's why I rank Montana, and begrudgingly Brady, ahead of him. But still doesnt change my opinion that overall strength of team and luck played bigger factors in why he didnt go to more Super Bowls.

 

[dgreen]

but after 1986, he never passed for more than 30 TDs again.

You say that like the rest of the league was piling up 30+ TD seasons and Marino wasn't. There have been 94 QB seasons with 30+ TDs. 67 of the 94 QB seasons have been since 1994. Since 1994, when Marino last hit 30 TDs, someone (and usually multiple someones) has hit 30 TDs every season except 2002. It's a different game since Marino starting showing signs of age.

Between '86 and '94 (Marino's 30+ TD gap), there were a whopping total of 5 QB seasons with 30+ TDs, including Montana's ONLY season reaching 30+.

If we removed all QBs' three year peaks, how many of them would hit 30+ TDs more than once? I'd guess the answer to that question would only include QBs who have played much of their career in the last 20 years.

 

[johnadams]

but after 1986, he never passed for more than 30 TDs again.

You say that like the rest of the league was piling up 30+ TD seasons and Marino wasn't. There have been 94 QB seasons with 30+ TDs. 67 of the 94 QB seasons have been since 1994. Since 1994, when Marino last hit 30 TDs, someone (and usually multiple someones) has hit 30 TDs every season except 2002. It's a different game since Marino starting showing signs of age.

Between '86 and '94 (Marino's 30+ TD gap), there were a whopping total of 5 QB seasons with 30+ TDs, including Montana's ONLY season reaching 30+.

If we removed all QBs' three year peaks, how many of them would hit 30+ TDs more than once? I'd guess the answer to that question would only include QBs who have played much of their career in the last 20 years.

Fair points to be sure. My issue is that there's a perception that he was lighting up the league, but after that stretch, he was pretty average for a long period of time. I wouldn't take anything away from Marino's big stretch as he was AWESOME in that time period and if I could bottle it, I'd say that was the greatest stretch of QB play I'd ever seen much like the career of Bo Jackson was the most dominant I've ever seen a RB play, but the question is why Marino didn't win more SBs and it's because he didn't sustain it.

Fair point but I would argue that a lot of the statistical success in a function of the teams around them. Its easier to put up better stats in the playoffs when playing with the lead, throwing to the all time leading WR, handing off to the all time leading rusher, and put in good gameflow situations by your defense.

Marino certainly could have elevated his play more than he did in the playoffs and that's why I rank Montana, and begrudgingly Brady, ahead of him. But still doesnt change my opinion that overall strength of team and luck played bigger factors in why he didnt go to more Super Bowls.

This argument doesn't really hold water. The statistical success as a function of the team around them is a constant from the season through playoffs unless there are major injuries. From a purely statistical perspective, I would expect that playoff stats would degrade as every opponent is, by definition, a playoff and therefore good team. If it's stat padding you want to do, then it's a lot easier when playing against non-playoff caliber teams during the regular season. (Montana didn't have Rice for the first half of his career when he won two SBs and had to deal with some of the best all time Ds that were geared specifically to stop them).

 

[fantasycurse42]

He has no right being mentioned in conversations with names such as Montana, Brady, Elway and belongs more in conversations with guys in the Drew Brees tier.

Ridiculously off base IMO.

People need to look at what Marino did in relation to the era he played in. When he was the first to go over 5,000 yards and threw 48 TDs in 1984 only 2 other QBs even threw for 4,000 yards and only 1 other QB had more than 28 TDs (32 being the 2nd highest). When Brees broke his yardage record nearly 20 years later there were 10 QBs with over 4,000 yards.

Between 84-86 Marino threw the ball 1,754 times, almost 600 attempts a season. Outside of Warren Moon, I can't think of anyone slinging the ball that much in that era.

 

[dgreen]

but after 1986, he never passed for more than 30 TDs again.

You say that like the rest of the league was piling up 30+ TD seasons and Marino wasn't. There have been 94 QB seasons with 30+ TDs. 67 of the 94 QB seasons have been since 1994. Since 1994, when Marino last hit 30 TDs, someone (and usually multiple someones) has hit 30 TDs every season except 2002. It's a different game since Marino starting showing signs of age.

Between '86 and '94 (Marino's 30+ TD gap), there were a whopping total of 5 QB seasons with 30+ TDs, including Montana's ONLY season reaching 30+.

If we removed all QBs' three year peaks, how many of them would hit 30+ TDs more than once? I'd guess the answer to that question would only include QBs who have played much of their career in the last 20 years.

Fair points to be sure. My issue is that there's a perception that he was lighting up the league, but after that stretch, he was pretty average for a long period of time. I wouldn't take anything away from Marino's big stretch as he was AWESOME in that time period and if I could bottle it, I'd say that was the greatest stretch of QB play I'd ever seen much like the career of Bo Jackson was the most dominant I've ever seen a RB play, but the question is why Marino didn't win more SBs and it's because he didn't sustain it.

After '86, he had 7 straight seasons (with the exception of 1993 when he was injured) finishing top 4 in yards. During those 7 seasons, he finished 2, 2, 6, 8, 4, 2, and 3 in TDs. He continued to be top 10 in yards per attempt and finished 4, 2, and 4 in adjusted yards per pass attempt in '91-94 (with, again, '93 being his injury). Yeah, his years after his peak were down (because that's what a peak is), but I'd hardly say they were average. His numbers in those 7 seasons do look pretty average compared to today's numbers, but he wasn't playing in today's game.

I'd say it was after '94 when he started to enter "average" territory, while still displaying some brief moments of greatness.

 

[Koya]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but lets not forget that pre-salary cap, it was far easier to keep a dominant team - or unit - together. Bears and Giants defense, the niners... who could reload with a HoF QB waiting for the other HoFer to cede the thrown on the fly.

So, without a running game and a weak defense around him, Marino was in the AFC when it seemed all NFC, and other great teams (they all seem NFC, but have to remember the great teams that didnt win, ala Buffalo) could continue to stockpile with high paid aging vets.

 

[cstu]

After '86, he had 7 straight seasons (with the exception of 1993 when he was injured) finishing top 4 in yards. During those 7 seasons, he finished 2, 2, 6, 8, 4, 2, and 3 in TDs. He continued to be top 10 in yards per attempt and finished 4, 2, and 4 in adjusted yards per pass attempt in '91-94 (with, again, '93 being his injury). Yeah, his years after his peak were down (because that's what a peak is), but I'd hardly say they were average. His numbers in those 7 seasons do look pretty average compared to today's numbers, but he wasn't playing in today's game.

I'd say it was after '94 when he started to enter "average" territory, while still displaying some brief moments of greatness.

When I compared him to Romo it wasn't an insult:

Romo's rank in TD's: #2, 6, 10, 5, 6, 5, 4

 

[Dynasty]

What happened to the Dolphins in 85? I remember their huge Monday Night win over the Bears but then the Patriots who were not a good team somehow made it to the Super Bowl that year. Seemed like the Dolphins should have been the class of the AFC with Duper & Clayton, etc but I was only 10 so don't recall what happened in the playoffs other than the Bears destroying everyone.

If I remember right, the game was played in a driving rainstorm which negated the Miami passing attack and play more into the hands of the Patriots who used a running based attack. Then they proceeded to play like the football was greased up, fumbling everything in sight.

Craig James and Tony Collins destroyed our run defense (255 total team rushing yards that day) and yes the ball was squirting out like a watermelon seed all night for the Dolphins. We should have met the Bears for rematch. And it would have been a glorious game. I don't know if we would have beat them again.....but Dan was the only guy capable of doing it to that legendary team. We just had the goods on offense in 84/85.

I watched that game earlier this year on You Tube. It used to be the greatest game in Patriots history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvLXUDZKiC0

 

[elguapo07]

If Ray Finkle hits that chip shot Marino gets his ring and we're not talking about this. Laces out.....

 

[Todem]

After '86, he had 7 straight seasons (with the exception of 1993 when he was injured) finishing top 4 in yards. During those 7 seasons, he finished 2, 2, 6, 8, 4, 2, and 3 in TDs. He continued to be top 10 in yards per attempt and finished 4, 2, and 4 in adjusted yards per pass attempt in '91-94 (with, again, '93 being his injury). Yeah, his years after his peak were down (because that's what a peak is), but I'd hardly say they were average. His numbers in those 7 seasons do look pretty average compared to today's numbers, but he wasn't playing in today's game.

I'd say it was after '94 when he started to enter "average" territory, while still displaying some brief moments of greatness.

When I compared him to Romo it wasn't an insult:

Romo's rank in TD's: #2, 6, 10, 5, 6, 5, 4

With todays rules that Romo has been playing under Marino would be

1,2,1,3,1,1,1

The guy was insane in an age of where DB's could grab, pull, hit and defend WR's.

That is also why I say Clayton and Duper would be incredible as well in todays NFL of no touchy any offensive player down field at all. The rules in the modern NFL are a joke compared to the 70's and 80's and even 90's. Once we hit 2002 it all started changing big time.

Comparing QB's in different era's is futile. Different rules, different game.

 

[massraider]

This is a great question for younger fans to ask, that never saw him play.

The problem is that you run the risk of getting bad information, by people that look to Super Bowl rings, and will cap a players' greatness based on that alone. Their argument generally comes down to the same tired argument: "Yeah, it's a team sport, but STILL, he should've won a couple....."

It's the argument of the obnoxious blowhard at the bar, and frankly, it doesn't recognize how hard it is to win a Super Bowl.

Marino spent his entire career dragging average to well-below average talent across the finish line. Inevitably, in the playoffs, his teams were exposed. He rarely played with a decent defense, and don't think he ever had a good running back.

One of the greatest sports tragedies of the last 40 years is that the Dolphins were never able to build a team around Marino.

You can say that Marino isn't as great as guys like Brady or Montana because of rings, and that's fair, rings obviously count for something. But he belongs in the conversation with all of them.

As to why Marino didn't go to more Super Bowls, the answer is simple: He didn't have a strong front office, and they didn't give him players. Reminds me a little of the path Andrew Luck is headed down.

 

[Dismattle]

It is interesting too hear from his fans.. I mean that I read things like:

This Team is setup for passing... While most every Defense is setup for defending the run? (slight advantage?)

Anyway,,, How much stock should we really put in the Coach? Basically dismantled Butch Cassidy and Sundance ground n pound SB Team..

Yes, I understand it wasn't all the Coachs doing, and there might have been very little he could actually do too.

But, dam Larry was older too OLine was great none the less. Why was it so hard to find a backup plan RB(s)..

I think bottom line is that both the QB and the Coach were pretty darn good.. But that don't mean SB(s) happen

Elway almost ran out of time.. BF didn't exactly see a whole mess of em.. Look at Manning

Personally, I find Terry Bradshaw one of the more interesting QB's ie. 1970 1400 yds! six TDs 24 Picks

Look at 1972 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTe00.htm

More importantly and on point. Consider the Steelers/Cowboys rivalry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboys%E2%80%93Steelers_rivalry

On the offensive side of the ball brought key differences, as the Cowboys had Hall of Fame quarterback Roger Staubach and his aerial attack, as well as his reputation for fourth-quarter comebacks, earning him the nickname "Captain Comeback". The Steelers meanwhile, were powered offensively by the running game, led by Hall of Fame running back Franco Harris.

My point ​isn't that Terry didn't become an awesome QB.. Its that Dallas had both the Coach and the QB but didn't get the W in quite a few games..

(imho) Landry and Staubachs lack of multiple SB Trophys kind of blows major holes in the theory.. Combo of Great Coach n Great QB Wins SB(s)

 

[I Am the Stig]

It is interesting too hear from his fans.. I mean that I read things like:

This Team is setup for passing... While most every Defense is setup for defending the run? (slight advantage?)

Anyway,,, How much stock should we really put in the Coach? Basically dismantled Butch Cassidy and Sundance ground n pound SB Team..

Yes, I understand it wasn't all the Coachs doing, and there might have been very little he could actually do too.

But, dam Larry was older too OLine was great none the less. Why was it so hard to find a backup plan RB(s)..

I think bottom line is that both the QB and the Coach were pretty darn good.. But that don't mean SB(s) happen

Elway almost ran out of time.. BF didn't exactly see a whole mess of em.. Look at Manning

Personally, I find Terry Bradshaw one of the more interesting QB's ie. 1970 1400 yds! six TDs 24 Picks

Look at 1972 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTe00.htm

More importantly and on point. Consider the Steelers/Cowboys rivalry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboys%E2%80%93Steelers_rivalry

On the offensive side of the ball brought key differences, as the Cowboys had Hall of Fame quarterback Roger Staubach and his aerial attack, as well as his reputation for fourth-quarter comebacks, earning him the nickname "Captain Comeback". The Steelers meanwhile, were powered offensively by the running game, led by Hall of Fame running back Franco Harris.

My point ​isn't that Terry didn't become an awesome QB.. Its that Dallas had both the Coach and the QB but didn't get the W in quite a few games..

(imho) Landry and Staubachs lack of multiple SB Trophys kind of blows major holes in the theory.. Combo of Great Coach n Great QB Wins SB(s)

No, all this proves is that people don't take the entire body of work into account in regards to QBs.

Besides, nobody ever accused Staubach as a top five all time QB. His career was to brief. But, he had a widely successful and prolific career that makes him a great quarterback and HOF worthy, he is just not a top 5. He isn't even the top QB of his own team.

 

[gdub]

Just to add a couple of things to the conversation...

85 and 92 sting as a Dolphins fan. Home championship games that Marino didn't take advantage of. Those were good teams along with the 84 team, but talk about bad luck if they went to those Super Bowls. When they did go in 84, the Niners are probably a top 10 all time team. If they went in 85, they would have to beat the Bears (for a second time that year). If they went in 92, the Cowboys were waiting. I think we would be talking how Danny was 0-3 in Super Bowls. It would have been nice for him to go to one and take on a good team rather than all time great ones.

 

[cstu]

This is a great question for younger fans to ask, that never saw him play.

The problem is that you run the risk of getting bad information, by people that look to Super Bowl rings, and will cap a players' greatness based on that alone. Their argument generally comes down to the same tired argument: "Yeah, it's a team sport, but STILL, he should've won a couple....."

It's the argument of the obnoxious blowhard at the bar, and frankly, it doesn't recognize how hard it is to win a Super Bowl.

Marino spent his entire career dragging average to well-below average talent across the finish line. Inevitably, in the playoffs, his teams were exposed. He rarely played with a decent defense, and don't think he ever had a good running back.

One of the greatest sports tragedies of the last 40 years is that the Dolphins were never able to build a team around Marino.

You can say that Marino isn't as great as guys like Brady or Montana because of rings, and that's fair, rings obviously count for something. But he belongs in the conversation with all of them.

As to why Marino didn't go to more Super Bowls, the answer is simple: He didn't have a strong front office, and they didn't give him players. Reminds me a little of the path Andrew Luck is headed down.

I never watched him from 84-86 since I didn't start really paying attention to the NFL until 88 or 89. I imagine if you watched him during those 84-86 years you elevated him to god-like stats even if he never lived up to that afterward.

From the period of 87-92, here are the QB's with the most passing TD's:

Rk From To Draft Tm Lg G GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD ▾ Int Int% Rate Sk Y/A Yds AY/A ANY/A Y/G W L T Att Yds Y/A TD Y/G 1 Dan Marino* 1987 1992 1-27 MIA NFL 92 92 1879 3234 58.10 23325 148 98 3.03 83.2 95 7.21 639 6.76 6.38 253.5 52 40 0 109 98 0.90 4 1.1 2 Jim Kelly* 1987 1992 1-14 BUF NFL 86 86 1539 2544 60.50 19438 139 91 3.58 87.6 158 7.64 1214 7.12 6.26 226.0 60 26 0 166 585 3.52 4 6.8 3 Warren Moon* 1987 1992 OTI NFL 81 80 1614 2711 59.54 20664 135 86 3.17 86.8 147 7.62 1116 7.19 6.43 255.1 48 32 0 252 898 3.56 17 11.1He was basically the same passer as Kelly and Moon yet he did nothing running the ball. In terms of total TD's (passing and running), Marino and Moon are tied with 152 even though Moon started 12 fewer games than Marino.

 

[moleculo]

It is interesting too hear from his fans.. I mean that I read things like:

This Team is setup for passing... While most every Defense is setup for defending the run? (slight advantage?)

Anyway,,, How much stock should we really put in the Coach? Basically dismantled Butch Cassidy and Sundance ground n pound SB Team..

Yes, I understand it wasn't all the Coachs doing, and there might have been very little he could actually do too.

But, dam Larry was older too OLine was great none the less. Why was it so hard to find a backup plan RB(s)..

I think bottom line is that both the QB and the Coach were pretty darn good.. But that don't mean SB(s) happen

Elway almost ran out of time.. BF didn't exactly see a whole mess of em.. Look at Manning

Personally, I find Terry Bradshaw one of the more interesting QB's ie. 1970 1400 yds! six TDs 24 Picks

Look at 1972 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTe00.htm

More importantly and on point. Consider the Steelers/Cowboys rivalry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboys%E2%80%93Steelers_rivalry

On the offensive side of the ball brought key differences, as the Cowboys had Hall of Fame quarterback Roger Staubach and his aerial attack, as well as his reputation for fourth-quarter comebacks, earning him the nickname "Captain Comeback". The Steelers meanwhile, were powered offensively by the running game, led by Hall of Fame running back Franco Harris.

My point ​isn't that Terry didn't become an awesome QB.. Its that Dallas had both the Coach and the QB but didn't get the W in quite a few games..

(imho) Landry and Staubachs lack of multiple SB Trophys kind of blows major holes in the theory.. Combo of Great Coach n Great QB Wins SB(s)

No, all this proves is that people don't take the entire body of work into account in regards to QBs.

Besides, nobody ever accused Staubach as a top five all time QB. His career was to brief. But, he had a widely successful and prolific career that makes him a great quarterback and HOF worthy, he is just not a top 5. He isn't even the top QB of his own team.

I place Staubach as a top 5, and he did win two SB's -XII and VI. in his brief career cut short due to his commitment to the Navy, he had 8 years where he was the primary starter - 2 SB wins, 2 more SB losses, (i.e. he played in the SB half of all of his seasons!), and failed to make the playoffs just once. In terms of yards, his offenses were top 5 in the league every single year. this was all done without uber-talented surrounding offensive casts - Dorsett and Staubach played together for just 3 years, bob Hayes was there for a few years, but that's about it. I guess Rayfield Wright was there the whole time as a tackle.

 

[Koya]

He was overrated

No he wasn't, lol. The reason he didn't go to more Super Bowls is the same reason Peyton Manning didn't go to more Super Bowls with Indy. Their teams stock piled weapons on offense but never really addressed the defense and in Miami's case add the running game to the mix in addition to the defense.

next.

He was a great QB, but he was imho a wee bit overrated for the very reasons\excuses you list for their failure to win championships. Neither were as good as their inflated regular season statistics might suggest and neither were\are as bad as their playoff futility would indicate. Yep, a good part of the reason for their playoff failures was their teams primary focus being on offense, but it was (in part) that very same focus that paved the way for them to produce over inflated regular season stats.

He has never been overrated, in fact he has always been criticized for his lack of championships and championship appearances.

If you are implying that Marino's stats were inflated I suspect you didn't watch much football in the 80's. The game was different then and every bit of Marino's skill set would flourish in todays game. The only thing he lack was mobility but his decision making and quick release more than made up for that. His accuracy is on par with the leagues best today as well.

Marino's best seasons by far were in the 80s.

Marino's legacy is totally linked to his incredible second season. Other than the two seasons following, the rest of his career is more stat compiling than anything. I'm not sure if the early success went to his head or the MIA organization totally hosed him in terms of personnel, but after 1986, he never passed for more than 30 TDs again. For the three year span of 84 thru 86, Marino was amazing, must see TV (I still think about the rollouts vs. Chicago to spoil their bid at 16-0 as one of the greatest coached games I've ever watched) but after that, he was a crankier Drew Bledsoe. You can't take that stretch from him, but he was never as good as he was early in his career.

Yeah, but how amazing is that stretch in retrospect? It's stunning looking at the career stats of all those HOF QBs from the '80s and realizing how rarely they hit 30. Marino threw for 48 in '84 and 44 in '86. Over the next two decades, Warner was the only QB to even reach 40, which he did once in '99. (Then the game changed and we had Peyton '04, Brady '07, Peyton '13, etc.) For Marino to do that in a far more conservative NFL was almost like if Babe Ruth had hit his 60 HRs in the Deadball Era. He was really ahead of his time.

Lets not forget that during those years, DBs could rough up receivers down the field. No five yard rule, etc.

With todays rules, my god what could have been. Todays rules and todays watered down defenses? Yeeks.

 

[cloppbeast]

Same with Unitas. Man, Johnny would dominate today. He had a skillset to succeed in any era, but his skillset would have been elite in today's game.

Unitas had a Nolan Ryan wind up.

 

[FreshiZ]

Because the Raiders passed on him :-(

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

I blame his coke habit

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I was raised a Dolphin fan and spent the Marino era rooting for them. IMO the big problem was Dan never did what Elway did. He never took a pay cut to keep or get some more talent. His salary ate up a ton of cap. It hamstrung the Dolphins. Any time they'd get a good player grown, off he went because they had to pay Dan. Add that to the aforementioned dominant Bills and the vagaries of the NFL you know injuries, some bad bounces and that's why. But he set a lot of records.

he did set a lot of records, but looking at it, his team came up short in the playoffs a lot - much like Manning. I can buy that he never had the defense or the running game, but it seems to me that a coach with Shula's resume should have been able to fix that.

Should Shula take more blame for the Dolphins short-comings than Marino?

Shula did some great things in Baltimore and the early 70s Phins - great running games with great RBs and great defenses.

In the two seasons before Marino arrived the Phins went 19-6-1 with David Woodley. not onlly that, the 82 SB Phins were probably the last team to successfully run a 2 QB system. 1981 MIA went 11-4-1 with Woodley and lost in the divisional playoffs. 1982 MIA went 7-2 (prorate as ~12-4) and went to the SB with Woodley. 1983 MIA went 12-4 and lost in the divisional playoffs with Marino. 1984 MIA went to the SB and lost with Marino.

What was the difference in terms of wins and losses with Marino vs Woodley? None. If Marino was so great (and he was) then why so little difference in how far the team went? Woodley was not good.

Shula won his first SB with Griese throwing 11 passes in the SB (and he got there with old Earl Morrall QB'ing the team). The next SB Shula won with Griese throwing 7 passes. Think about that, even in that era that was a ridiculously low number of attempts.

In 7 seasons in Baltimore Shula had a top 4 scoring defense 5 times. (He had done similar work as DC in Detroit for 3 seasons before that).

In his first 15 seasons in Miami he had a top 10 defense 14 times, he had a top 7 defense 13 times.

After 1984 the only time he had a top-5 defense was 1990.... where he lost to Buffalo 34-44.

And although the great running game of the early years disappeared with the Csonka/Morris/Kiick trio departing, still in 1981-83 the Phins under Woodley/Marino were top-6 in rushing attempts or yards gained and even though there was a decline in 1984 the Phins still had a better run game relatively than any season that followed by a good margin except for one (1994) in the final 11 Shula seasons.

Kelly and the Bills were definitely a roadblock but really what happened is the things that made Shula teams great, defense and running the ball, disappeared. IMO the 4 1981-84 seasons with Woodley and Marino are of a piece, and 1985-95 were just a different era.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I was just thinking the other day that when a great QB is coupled with a great coach, you get multiple SB wins - IMO, that's the distinction between Manning and Brady. Extend that thought, and it holds true for the most part - the QB's we consider "great" almost always had great coaches...and multiple titles. Except for Marino/Shula. Here is a great QB and a great coach, together for a really long time, and very little hardware to show for it.

Or maybe when we see multiple SB wins, we just assume it's a great coach and great QB.I give coaches much more credit for wins and losses than QBs. I don't think multiple SB wins should automatically make us think that a QB is great.

Also, this conversation has the problem of where people draw the line for "greatness". Two people could each rank Marino, for example, as the 10th best QB all time and one person will say that makes him "great" and the other will say he's not "great". So they argue back and forth about whether he was "great" or not, all while not realizing they both place him at the same place in history.

X That's true. If Marino had a title or two, he would be indisputably regarded as one of the best of all time.

So if he would have played with TD, he'd be the GOAT.

 

[BigBlue_RI]

Simple--years of no running game and sound defenses.

 

[DropKick]

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since Marino played so I don't remember all the details.

The judgement on QBs comes down to SB wins and Elway and Marino will remain forever linked. Elway was fortunate enough to win two at the end of his career blessed with a running game in the person of Terrell Davis. That never happened for Dan.

Marino still is #1 to me as a pure QB. Never overly mobile, the achilles injury slowed him further and I remember him playing heavily braced toward the end of his career.

The Marino era Dolphins where fun to watch. I'm talking about 49-47 style shoot-outs. And, as explosive as that offense could be, the defense often struggled. Sometimes the offense put too much pressure on the defense, as a quick 3 and out would only take 20 seconds off the clock and put the "d" back on the field.

I don't think Marino really ever had a great supporting cast. At that time, defense and running games won championships. In '85, after being the only team to knock off the Bears, the Patriots ran all over the Dolphins (250+ yards) in the AFCCG. What better way to win than keep Marino off the field? Maybe those Dolphin teams were a little too one dimensional.

NFL play-offs are one and done venture. You look back at individual plays and see that sometimes the difference between winning and losing can hinge on a single play. One thing I'll always remember is the loss to the Chargers (1994?) With Miami holding a 21-6 lead in the 3rd quarter, the Charger's fumbled on 4th down and the ball went into the end-zone for an apparent touch-back. However, with the rule about advancing the ball on a fumble, the ball was placed on the 1 and a safety immediately followed. The Chargers received and quickly put up a TD and in a moment the game changed from a 15 point lead with the ball to a 6 point lead. Ended up losing that one by a point.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

On that point by BigBlue I'll throw one more item out there: Bill Arnsparger. He was Shula's D-line coach and DC from Baltimore to Miami from the 60s all the way up through 1983. He was HC at the NYG 74-76 whereupon the Phins failed to make the SB and missed the playoffs twice and teh defense crumbled in the final year when the Phins went 6-8. Arnsparger returned so did the defense. They did make the SB in 84 the year after he left. As DC for the Chargers they actually made the SB in 94 with him. He also has the highest winning percentage of any HC in LSU history and forged top-5 national defenses there. Overall he was a big part of Shula's success.

 

[Ghost Rider]

NFL play-offs are one and done venture. You look back at individual plays and see that sometimes the difference between winning and losing can hinge on a single play. One thing I'll always remember is the loss to the Chargers (1994?) With Miami holding a 21-6 lead in the 3rd quarter, the Charger's fumbled on 4th down and the ball went into the end-zone for an apparent touch-back. However, with the rule about advancing the ball on a fumble, the ball was placed on the 1 and a safety immediately followed. The Chargers received and quickly put up a TD and in a moment the game changed from a 15 point lead with the ball to a 6 point lead. Ended up losing that one by a point.

I'll never forget that game either cause I had big bets on Miami +2, under 45 and a parlay with Miami and the under (they lost 22-21). I know, nobody cares, but I just felt like reminiscing for a minute there.

 

[cstu]

If Marino had a title or two, he would be indisputably regarded as one of the best of all time.

No, he'd still be behind Montana.

 

[cloppbeast]

This thread lists a lot of failures of the Dolphins and coaches, seemingly to find any way to shed blame from Marino. Dude has some disparaging efficiency numbers play-off v. regular season; his interception rate stands out. Not saying Marino is a choke artist, but maybe he was built more to pile up stats than to win games.

Play-offs: 6.6 y/a, 4.7% td/a, 3.5% int/a

Regular season: 7.3 y/a, 5.0% td/a, 3.0% int/a

 

[daveR]

Why didn't JJ Watt go to more superbowls?

 

[NCCommish]

This thread lists a lot of failures of the Dolphins and coaches, seemingly to find any way to shed blame from Marino. Dude has some disparaging efficiency numbers play-off v. regular season; his interception rate stands out. Not saying Marino is a choke artist, but maybe he was built more to pile up stats than to win games.

Play-offs: 6.6 y/a, 4.7% td/a, 3.5% int/a

Regular season: 7.3 y/a, 5.0% td/a, 3.0% int/a

You tend to play better defenses in the playoffs.

 

[The Claymaker]

He was overrated

No he wasn't, lol. The reason he didn't go to more Super Bowls is the same reason Peyton Manning didn't go to more Super Bowls with Indy. Their teams stock piled weapons on offense but never really addressed the defense and in Miami's case add the running game to the mix in addition to the defense.next.

He was a great QB, but he was imho a wee bit overrated for the very reasons\excuses you list for their failure to win championships. Neither were as good as their inflated regular season statistics might suggest and neither were\are as bad as their playoff futility would indicate. Yep, a good part of the reason for their playoff failures was their teams primary focus being on offense, but it was (in part) that very same focus that paved the way for them to produce over inflated regular season stats.

He has never been overrated, in fact he has always been criticized for his lack of championships and championship appearances.If you are implying that Marino's stats were inflated I suspect you didn't watch much football in the 80's. The game was different then and every bit of Marino's skill set would flourish in todays game. The only thing he lack was mobility but his decision making and quick release more than made up for that. His accuracy is on par with the leagues best today as well.

Exactly, I don't even bother trying to argue with people that say Marino is overrated or wasn't that great because "he" didn't win Championships. QB's get too much praise when they win and too much blame when they lose. They are usually the most important part of the team, but it is still a team effort. How many games did Marino lose when he put 28+ points up, I am sure the number is staggering. Then he has to see a QB like Dilfer luck out and win a SB because his defense was one of the best ever. Marino is easily one of the best to ever play the game.

 

[flapgreen]

He was ok

 

[DropKick]

This thread lists a lot of failures of the Dolphins and coaches, seemingly to find any way to shed blame from Marino. Dude has some disparaging efficiency numbers play-off v. regular season; his interception rate stands out. Not saying Marino is a choke artist, but maybe he was built more to pile up stats than to win games.

Play-offs: 6.6 y/a, 4.7% td/a, 3.5% int/a

Regular season: 7.3 y/a, 5.0% td/a, 3.0% int/a

You tend to play better defenses in the playoffs.

And you tend to force the ball in when you fall behind...

 

[NCCommish]

This thread lists a lot of failures of the Dolphins and coaches, seemingly to find any way to shed blame from Marino. Dude has some disparaging efficiency numbers play-off v. regular season; his interception rate stands out. Not saying Marino is a choke artist, but maybe he was built more to pile up stats than to win games.

Play-offs: 6.6 y/a, 4.7% td/a, 3.5% int/a

Regular season: 7.3 y/a, 5.0% td/a, 3.0% int/a

You tend to play better defenses in the playoffs.

And you tend to force the ball in when you fall behind...

To be fair a .5% increease is an exceedingly small number even on 100 attempts.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Why didn't JJ Watt go to more superbowls?

Tickets are more expensive now.

 

[Todem]

This thread lists a lot of failures of the Dolphins and coaches, seemingly to find any way to shed blame from Marino. Dude has some disparaging efficiency numbers play-off v. regular season; his interception rate stands out. Not saying Marino is a choke artist, but maybe he was built more to pile up stats than to win games.

Play-offs: 6.6 y/a, 4.7% td/a, 3.5% int/a

Regular season: 7.3 y/a, 5.0% td/a, 3.0% int/a

5th All Time in wins for an NFL QB in the history of the game.

Try again.