Why do they need to know what guns I own? (1 Viewer)

[Opie]

And what's your objection to registering?  Or is it just too much of an inconvenience? So far that's been the only argument. 

....like the argument against voter ID?

My background was checked when I bought them so registering them would be moot.  Why don't they just assume that if I applied to buy a gun...I bought a gun.  How does knowing the serial number of my gun help anyone?

Secondly...how many criminals do you think are going to register their guns?  Why, as a law abiding citizen, would I consent to a law has no benefit and could be used against me at the whim of any administration without having committed a crime?

 

[timschochet]

And you never answered my question at least I believe it was you. 

You said my registering my lawfully purchased and owned guns will help the police enforce the law.

I asked "how"

Isn’t that fairly simple? 

So that if a crime is committed with a gun, it is easier to narrow down who committed the crime. 

Pretty basic. 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

....like the argument against voter ID?

My background was checked when I bought them so registering them would be moot.  Why don't they just assume that if I applied to buy a gun...I bought a gun.  How does knowing the serial number of my gun help anyone?

Secondly...how many criminals do you think are going to register their guns?  Why, as a law abiding citizen, would I consent to a law has no benefit and could be used against me at the whim of any administration without having committed a crime?

Yes. All of this

 

[Amused to Death]

And you never answered my question at least I believe it was you. 

You said my registering my lawfully purchased and owned guns will help the police enforce the law.

I asked "how"

Well for one, if you're registered and later become involved in a violent crime or a felon they'll know you have guns.  Guns involved in crimes can be traced to their owners. The chain of ownership of a gun can traced. Help enforce background checks on gun sales.

There's a few.

 

[Opie]

Isn’t that fairly simple? 

So that if a crime is committed with a gun, it is easier to narrow down who committed the crime. 

Pretty basic. 

Most guns used in a crime and recovered are stolen guns and believe it...when responsible gun owners have their guns stolen...they report it.  They probably don't know who stole it, so how does this help solve a crime...especially if this stolen gun has changed hands a dozen times or more since it was stolen?

 

[Cowboysfan8]

So that if a crime is committed with a gun, it is easier to narrow down who committed the crime. 

How?

If the police find your gun at the scene of a crime... you committed that crime ?

 

[timschochet]

 Cowboyfan and Opie: these laws are not meant to be against you. We want you to help us stop the bad guys. 

 

[Opie]

 Cowboyfan and Opie: these laws are not meant to be against you. We want you to help us stop the bad guys. 

NEWSFLASH:  The bad guys won't register their guns.

 

[timschochet]

Most guns used in a crime are stolen guns and believe it...when responsible gun owners have their guns stolen...they report it.  They probably don't know who stole it, so how does this help solve a crime?

Not everybody reports it. Not everybody knows who they sell their guns to. This allows the police to trace possession, perhaps from the legal owner to the criminal. Will it always work? Of course not. Will it help? Absolutely. 

 

[Amused to Death]

NEWSFLASH:  The bad guys won't register their guns.

So you're against it because you think it won't help and its an inconvenience.  Does that pretty much cover all of the objections?

 

[timschochet]

NEWSFLASH:  The bad guys won't register their guns.

And that’s part of the point. If all law abiding citizens register their guns, that allows the police to isolate and better identify the guns that are NOT registered, helping them catch the bad guys. 

These are not my arguments, they are the arguments of police, sheriffs, FBI, and criminology experts all across the country. I think we need to listen to them, don’t you? 

 

[Apple Jack]

NEWSFLASH:  The bad guys won't register their guns.

Eventually, over time, those guns will be weeded out. Because desired results are not immediately achieved is not a good reason to not do something.

 

[Opie]

Seriously...who the hell has their gun stolen and wouldn't report it??  I dunno...maybe someone who couldn't have legally owned on in the first place?

How does this include anyone who has legally purchased a gun?

 

[pantherclub]

 Cowboyfan and Opie: these laws are not meant to be against you. We want you to help us stop the bad guys. 

It won't 

 

[Opie]

I certainly do not believe, for one second, that some form of "gun confiscation" could NEVER happen....EVER!

I'm guessing that you skipped over this post?

 

[ren hoek]

Just so you know, this paranoia that the government is coming to seize your guns is not only irrational, it makes all of you that express it sound like nutjobs to the vast majority of the public. 

They’re arming local police with Bearcats, used military equipment from Iraq/Aghanistan, sending police to Israel to receive training from racist occupiers, using the FBI to monitor political activists, and have set up a fullbore surveillance state.  The DEA is basically a hardcore paramilitary outfit that gets off on shooting people’s dogs.  People are treated like terrorists before being allowed to board an airplane.  Trump now declaring national emergencies and setting up troops on the border.  

They are constantly blurring the line between police and military.  It’s pretty clear they view civilians in terms of population control, rather than a sworn duty to protect and serve.  Don’t discount how authoritarian things have turned since 9/11.  

Compare that to forcing little Johnny to register his .22 pistol every year.  Compare the justice system police get for shooting people to the justice system for a black guy caught with weed.  The asymmetry of it all is comical.  There should really be equal footing between citizens and police.  I don’t trust that their interest in such a database is for our own good.  

I get that people should be weary about the wrong person getting access to assault weapons.  But it’s alarming how quick people are to discard other people’s privacy for their own perceived security (and then gaslight them about it).  

 

[Amused to Death]

Some reasons for registering:

If the question more broadly asks why firearms might need to be registered as a matter of principle, as opposed to why one must actually do so as a matter of practice and law, a few possible reasons could include:
 

Ensuring owners of firearms are those actually permitted to own them.  For instance, while one might need to pass a background check and complete other steps to purchase a particular weapon, some might feel a lack of registration requirement makes it too easy to transfer weapons from permitted owners to others (such as minors, those with criminal histories, etc).

An individual might be allowed to own certain weapons by being grandfathered in on laws that subsequently banned the sale or transfer of such weapons.  Registration could help ensure ownership is retained by the individual grandfathered-in.

Registration might qualify certain people as exempt from other restrictions (for instance, in CA where active duty military personnel stationed in CA may possess weapons other CA residents would not be able to legally acquire). 

An attempt to provide for some means of tracking and tracing back to owners particular firearms used in the commission of a crime.

 

[Opie]

And that’s part of the point. If all law abiding citizens register their guns, that allows the police to isolate and better identify the guns that are NOT registered, helping them catch the bad guys. 

These are not my arguments, they are the arguments of police, sheriffs, FBI, and criminology experts all across the country. I think we need to listen to them, don’t you? 

for the same reason that the Left won't listen to the same people (included the Border Control) when it comes to border control?

Why not simply require the criminals to register their guns....it will net the same results.

 

[Tom Skerritt]

and I think that registering guns in conjunction with laws requiring locked storage would turn law-abiding gun owners into criminals due to the actions of an 11 year old delinquent.

Will anyone who leaves the keys in their car or fails to secure it in a garage, be prosecuted if that car was stolen and used in a crime?

So you can admit then that cars AND guns can be stolen to commit crimes... in addition to the actual crime of stealing it. 

Wouldn’t you want to be able to track the information on that gun (or car)  to investigate any violent crimes associated with that gun?

 

[Frostillicus]

Why are gun nuts always so unhinged when it comes to the government?  Nobody is going to take your guns, Barney.  

 

[timschochet]

@Cowboysfan8 - earlier I think you wrote, regarding the government, “it’s none of their business.” I suspect this is your real objection: not the inconvenience, not the paranoid fear that they’re going to seize your guns, but the libertarian principle that owning guns lawfully is a private affair in which the government has no place. 

I understand that, and unlike some of the other arguments made, I respect it. But I think you’re going to have to realize that we just don’t live in that kind of society anymore. Terrorism and mass shootings present too many dangers to us, and we have to try and fight them, even if it alters certain things we used to regard as private. Now we wait in line at airports to be searched. Now we allow the NSA to look at our emails and texts. This is the way society has to be in the future. Registering your firearms is a small price to pay for continued public safety. 

 

[Opie]

So you can admit then that cars AND guns can be stolen to commit crimes... in addition the actual crime of stealing it. 

Wouldn’t you want to be able to track the information on that gun (or car)  to investigate any violent crimes associated with that gun?

Absolutely...

And as soon as they start holding car owners responsible for their stolen car....I may believe that there is no other agenda attached to registering guns.

 

[Opie]

Why are gun nuts always so unhinged when it comes to the government?  Nobody is going to take your guns, Barney.  

Again....never...ever?

 

[timschochet]

for the same reason that the Left won't listen to the same people (included the Border Control) when it comes to border control?

If you think the “left” is wrong about border control, how does that help your argument here? 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Absolutely...

And as soon as they start holding car owners responsible for their stolen car....I may believe that there is no other agenda attached to registering guns.

As I said, that was addressed in the gun thread since this is a popular point by SC.  You can be held responsible if your car is stolen and you didn't take precautions.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Again....never...ever?

What is the point of that 25 year old video? 

 

[Opie]

@Cowboysfan8 - earlier I think you wrote, regarding the government, “it’s none of their business.” I suspect this is your real objection: not the inconvenience, not the paranoid fear that they’re going to seize your guns, but the libertarian principle that owning guns lawfully is a private affair in which the government has no place. 

I understand that, and unlike some of the other arguments made, I respect it. But I think you’re going to have to realize that we just don’t live in that kind of society anymore. Terrorism and mass shootings present too many dangers to us, and we have to try and fight them, even if it alters certain things we used to regard as private. Now we wait in line at airports to be searched. Now we allow the NSA to look at our emails and texts. This is the way society has to be in the future. Registering your firearms is a small price to pay for continued public safety. 

 "“Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin

 

[badmojo1006]

It's not that the government is coming to seize anything...it's that we don't want to help them if they did down the road.

I never thought that anyone would consider birthday abortions yet, here we are.

Don't tell me that he Democratic party isn't moving to the left and gun confiscation would never be considered

Birthday Abortions?

Good name for a speed trash death metal band

 

[Opie]

If you think the “left” is wrong about border control, how does that help your argument here? 

I'm pointing out that you pick and choose who to listen to, based on the argument.

 

[timschochet]

 "“Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin

He was absolutely right. Registering your firearms is not giving up essential liberty. 

 

[Tom Skerritt]

Absolutely...

And as soon as they start holding car owners responsible for their stolen car....I may believe that there is no other agenda attached to registering guns.

So you just want an assurance that you won’t be held responsible if someone else uses your guns to commit crimes? Is this a correct assumption?

 

[Opie]

He was absolutely right. Registering your firearms is not giving up essential liberty. 

No...but the government is trying to put even more requirements and conditions on that essential liberty.

This was fun but Boscoe is ready for his drag.

 

[dkp993]

It’s pretty funny.  The same people who think it’s too much of an inconvenience for some citizens to get an ID want people who own guns to register them every year. 

Yet the same people who own deadly weapons with anonymity want people to get an ID to voice their opinion.  

See it works both ways.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Thank you for starting this thread.  When I registered my toaster and my car last year it didn’t even occur to me that it would be to have them taken away. 

 

[Snorkelson]

Ok.  Pretty simple.  If I needed to do it I would easily keep a database.  Just added some mice steak knives at Christmas.  

I’d register my shot gun if I needed to as well.  I have zero fear of the government coming to take it away.

I’ll have my mouse steak medium plus, with a side of jelly beans (of course.) Mice steak knives also work well if you’re a mohel. 

Moil? Moyle? Mohel.

 

[Henry Ford]

Most guns used in a crime and recovered are stolen guns and believe it...when responsible gun owners have their guns stolen...they report it.  They probably don't know who stole it, so how does this help solve a crime...especially if this stolen gun has changed hands a dozen times or more since it was stolen?

But if it’s registered and used in a crime, you reported it stolen, and the police contact you, they can put you on the stand to say it was stolen, and you have the ability to put a charge of “felon in possession of a stolen firearm” on these jerks who use stolen guns.  That’s a huge sentencing upgrade. 

Edit: and that’s just one example.  The ability to prove a gun is stolen is huge to law enforcement.  Guy gets stopped and pulled over and has a gun - run the registration.  Reported stolen? He goes to jail. Isn’t? Fine, go on your way.  

 

[Henry Ford]

No...but the government is trying to put even more requirements and conditions on that essential liberty.

This was fun but Boscoe is ready for his drag.

Did you just start speaking jive?

 

[Jackstraw]

Driving is a privilege, gun ownership is a right.

Very few rights are absolute. 

 

[Henry Ford]

NEWSFLASH:  The bad guys won't register their guns.

Yeah, so if you find a guy with a gun in public and it isn’t registered.... ?

 

[Sheriff Bart]

 Cowboyfan and Opie: these laws are not meant to be against you. We want you to help us stop the bad guys. 

They're trolling alias. That's why they exist. Yet dozens of people respond to them. It's like running over fish in a barrel. 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

They're trolling alias. 

I'm not trolling and I'm no alias.

And frankly, you've brought nothing to this forum that I've seen except pissing and moaning for about a year 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Thank you for starting this thread.  When I registered my toaster and my car last year it didn’t even occur to me that it would be to have them taken away. 

What exactly was the point of this post?

I believe these are the kinds of posts that the owner has asked us all to stop posting 

 

[timschochet]

They're trolling alias. That's why they exist. Yet dozens of people respond to them. It's like running over fish in a barrel. 

This is not true. I absolutely believe that Cowboysfan8 and Opie are 100% genuine in their beliefs here and represent millions of Americans- a minority, but a sizable one. 

Opie sometimes trolls, Cowboysfan8 never does. 

 

[Henry Ford]

What exactly was the point of this post?

I believe these are the kinds of posts that the owner has asked us all to stop posting 

The point was to use irony to make you consider the other possible reasons for registration and the other things we register that we don’t have any belief will be taken away based on that registration. 

Obviously the toaster is only so you can prove your date of purchase.  But the car has a lot of legal responsibilities and rights attached to registration. I then followed that post with explanation posts as to what the registration would be useful for. 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

The point was to use irony to make you consider the other possible reasons for registration and the other things we register that we don’t have any belief will be taken away based on that registration. 

Have I posted that I believe the govt is going to take away anything of mine?

 

[Henry Ford]

Yeah...and it's easier to confiscate guns if you know where they are!

Just so you know, where I've bought my guns, they have a pledge on the wall stating that the day the government requires them to inform them of their sales, they will be in the next day to burn their records (scrub their server).

Exactly who would you expect to obey any law like this....the criminals?

Have I posted that I believe the govt is going to take away anything of mine?

Not that I’ve seen in this thread, but another vocal poster on your side of the debate in here did and he appears to believe that’s the most viable reason for it.  Your question was “why” and I have presented an alternative viewpoint.  

 

[timschochet]

The point was to use irony 

I love the use of irony in argument and discussion, but I’ve noticed that there are some people here who are unable to discern irony, and they take comments seriously, are offended, and report them to the moderators who then, ignoring context, deliver undeserved punishment, at least IMO. So now I try to avoid ironic responses, unfortunately. 

 

[sho nuff]

Really?

Do you read?

Yes because up to that point none of you have actually made an argument against it.

 

[Henry Ford]

I love the use of irony in argument and discussion, but I’ve noticed that there are some people here who are unable to discern irony, and they take comments seriously, are offended, and report them to the moderators who then, ignoring context, deliver undeserved punishment, at least IMO. So now I try to avoid ironic responses, unfortunately. 

I also have seen this.  I have no doubt it will eventually lead to people being unhappy with me and my banning.  

I’m too old to be someone else. It is what it is. 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Yes because up to that point none of you have actually made an argument against it.

This is simply not true