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Why do they need to know what guns I own? (1 Viewer)

timschochet said:
I love the use of irony in argument and discussion, but I’ve noticed that there are some people here who are unable to discern irony, and they take comments seriously, are offended, and report them to the moderators who then, ignoring context, deliver undeserved punishment, at least IMO. So now I try to avoid ironic responses, unfortunately. 
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Meh... When some people do it it's called irony when other people do it it's called trolling.

Is what it is

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
This is simply not true 
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Just for reference sake- obviously you’re opposed to gun registration. Are you also opposed to other gun control ideas that have popular support, for instance: 

background checks on ALL purchases/transfers? 

Making certain firearms, of the “assault” variety, illegal? 

Making Bump stocks and ofher methods to increase firepower without having to reload your weapon illegal? 

For the purposes of background checks, having the government keep a list of mentally ill people (perhaps triggered by the type of medication they are receiving) and making it illegal for these people to own or purchase firearms? 

 
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Cowboysfan8 said:
Meh... When some people do it it's called irony when other people do it it's called trolling.

Is what it is
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I think there are obvious distinctions between the use of irony and trolling: the main one being that a person who is ironic intends for the reader to recognize the irony. 

 
sho nuff said:
Sure it is...we keep gettingbdeflection of the border and voter ID but no actual answer to his question of why not.
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I answered him. 

And it was before you claim it happened. But now you actually claim he hasnt been answered lol so who the hell knows what you're thinking 

 
timschochet said:
Just for reference sake- obviously you’re opposed to gun registration. Are you also opposed to other gun control ideas that have popular support, for instance: 

background checks on ALL purchases/transfers? 

Making certain firearms, of the “assault” variety, illegal? 

Making Bump stocks and ofher methods to increase firepower without having to reload your weapon illegal? 

For the purposes of background checks, having the government keep a list of mentally ill people (perhaps triggered by the type of medication they are receiving) and making it illegal for these people to own or purchase firearms? 
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No

Need more details 

Probably not

No

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
How would anyone go about proving whether my gun that was stolen was stored under lock and key or laying on the kitchen table when it was stolen?
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How would anyone go about proving that I stabbed my wife in the neck and buried her body in my neighbor's backyard?

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
I answered him. 

And it was before you claim it happened. But now you actually claim he hasnt been answered lol so who the hell knows what you're thinking 
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I don’t believe anyone has provided an actual answer...just more “why should I” type questions...or saying “I shouldn’t have to”.  Oh I see you also claimed it a the government sticking their nose in your business.

Thats what you call an answer?

 
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sho nuff said:
I don’t believe anyone has provided an actual answer...just more “why should I” type questions...or saying “I shouldn’t have to”.  Oh I see you also claimed it a the government sticking their nose in your business.

Thats what you call an answer?
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Yes. That is what I call an answer

Sorry it wasn't the answer you were looking for 

 
I do not own a gun. I fall into the "I would probably hurt myself with it" camp, so I really don't have a dog in this fight.

One of the first arguments I would have with this would be the obvious overburdening this would place on law enforcement.  We are going to now cite people for failure to register firearms yearly? Even assuming a 50% compliance rate, how many new courthouses are you going to build to hear these cases? Magically how are you going to pay for all the new enforcement officers? Enforcement would literally have to be the door to door type search that so many anti-gun folks say would never happen, but that is the only way you could prove someone doesn't have a gun. We have a certain vocal portion of our population that complains about the over incarceration rate in the county, but yet we are finding new ways to jail people?. This proposal doesn't do anything but put a burden on law abiding citizens. It is just a layer of the onion type proposal that somehow believes you can reduce the level of gun violence via government bureaucracy. it would be interesting to see what side the ACLU comes down on this one. 

My other concern I would have is the security of the database that is maintained. We can't go a week in the country without hearing about some hack  of supposedly unhackable databases. Talk about an absolute goldmine of info were this information to get out. Criminals, armed with this info, would now be able to target citizens who have desirable gun collections for burglary or worse.

Again just the faults I see with this bill on first blush. 

For those of you interested, Colorado has been going though an interesting debate here with the passage of the Red Flag Gun Bill. It basically allows the courts to remove weapons from people that are deemed a threat to themselves or others upon petition of family members or law enforcement. It is really an interesting subject, which has prompted some counties to declare themselves 2nd Amendment sanctuary counties and saying they will not recognize it. I can tell you most of our local LE are vehemently opposed to this bill and are actively fighting it. 

 
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timschochet said:
Isn’t that fairly simple? 

So that if a crime is committed with a gun, it is easier to narrow down who committed the crime. 

Pretty basic. 
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It is mind blowing to me that this isn’t obvious to everyone.  

American gun culture is so bizarre.  

 
zoonation said:
It is mind blowing to me that this isn’t obvious to everyone.  

American gun culture is so bizarre.  
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It isn't to me. I am not trying to be a jerk, but explain to me how registering a gun would tell LE who did it. 

I have worked it through my head to see if I follow this logic. If a gun is stolen and it is used in a crime later on, that doesn't tell anyone who did the crime. I understand it could impact the person if they were negligent in storing the firearm, but it doesn't solve the crime which is what Tim is suggesting.  If someone is killed on my property by my gun, it still doesn't tell who pulled the trigger. 

Just trying to find the other side of the coin here. The ONLY thing that I see positive about this bill is if people registered their firearms (but this would take 100% compliance by ALL--including criminals) is if LE is dispatched to a location, they could call up the house from the database and see what type of weapons they are up against. Again, this would only be useful if the homeowner complied. 

 
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Cowboysfan8 said:
https://www.wtae.com/amp/article/pennsylvania-firearm-registration-act-would-require-gun-owners-to-register-their-guns-every-year/26840676

I haven't broken any laws. Why would the police need this information?

Fingerprints? Photographs?

Nah...I'll pass
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confiscation in the future - or so they can levy massive taxes/fines for having it ..... or so they can blame you if someone breaks into your home and steals it and uses it in a crime

those are reasons that come to mind

 
Courtjester said:
It isn't to me. I am not trying to be a jerk, but explain to me how registering a gun would tell LE who did it. 

I have worked it through my head to see if I follow this logic. If a gun is stolen and it is used in a crime later on, that doesn't tell anyone who did the crime. I understand it could impact the person if they were negligent in storing the firearm, but it doesn't solve the crime which is what Tim is suggesting.  If someone is killed on my property by my gun, it still doesn't tell who pulled the trigger. 

Just trying to find the other side of the coin here. The ONLY thing that I see positive about this bill is if people registered their firearms (but this would take 100% compliance by ALL--including criminals) is if LE is dispatched to a location, they could call up the house from the database and see what type of weapons they are up against. Again, this would only be useful if the homeowner complied. 
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The idea is that it would put the onus on people to secure their weapons, leading to fewer accidents and fewer guns on the streets. This would therefore reduce gun violence in 2 ways.

As I said before, liability due to improper storage would have to be assigned he and some people would need to be prosecuted if it rose to criminal negligence.

 
Stealthycat said:
confiscation in the future - or so they can levy massive taxes/fines for having it ..... or so they can blame you if someone breaks into your home and steals it and uses it in a crime

those are reasons that come to mind
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You really don't want to lock up your guns, do you?

 
Courtjester, I think you raise some reasonable arguments. They’re not enough for me to oppose the idea of gun registration, but they are issues that we are going to have to work through. 

One issue that I disagree with you on is that I don’t think we’re going to have to spend a ton of money trying to enforce the law. I think most law abiding gun owners will comply with it once enacted. And afterwards, the police doesn’t need to go around making sure people have proper registration; if you’re being investigated for some other reason and you’re found to have a gun without registration then you face a penalty and you could lose the firearm, at least temporarily. That’s all. This needn’t cost the taxpayer a cent; all registration fees and penalties will be paid by gun owners. 

 
Courtjester said:
I do not own a gun. I fall into the "I would probably hurt myself with it" camp, so I really don't have a dog in this fight.

One of the first arguments I would have with this would be the obvious overburdening this would place on law enforcement.  We are going to now cite people for failure to register firearms yearly? Even assuming a 50% compliance rate, how many new courthouses are you going to build to hear these cases? Magically how are you going to pay for all the new enforcement officers? Enforcement would literally have to be the door to door type search that so many anti-gun folks say would never happen, but that is the only way you could prove someone doesn't have a gun. We have a certain vocal portion of our population that complains about the over incarceration rate in the county, but yet we are finding new ways to jail people?. This proposal doesn't do anything but put a burden on law abiding citizens. It is just a layer of the onion type proposal that somehow believes you can reduce the level of gun violence via government bureaucracy. it would be interesting to see what side the ACLU comes down on this one. 

My other concern I would have is the security of the database that is maintained. We can't go a week in the country without hearing about some hack  of supposedly unhackable databases. Talk about an absolute goldmine of info were this information to get out. Criminals, armed with this info, would now be able to target citizens who have desirable gun collections for burglary or worse.

Again just the faults I see with this bill on first blush. 

For those of you interested, Colorado has been going though an interesting debate here with the passage of the Red Flag Gun Bill. It basically allows the courts to remove weapons from people that are deemed a threat to themselves or others upon petition of family members or law enforcement. It is really an interesting subject, which has prompted some counties to declare themselves 2nd Amendment sanctuary counties and saying they will not recognize it. I can tell you most of our local LE are vehemently opposed to this bill and are actively fighting it. 
Click to expand...
Good post.  Some great points I hadn’t thought of here.  Thank you.  

 
As if on cue, I went in my local liquor store tonight and the guy going in front me had a gun tucked in the waste band of his jeans in the small of his back. Had to say it gave me a little pause standing in line behind him. 

 
Courtjester said:
As if on cue, I went in my local liquor store tonight and the guy going in front me had a gun tucked in the waste band of his jeans in the small of his back. Had to say it gave me a little pause standing in line behind him. 
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As it should. He singlehandedly raised the percentage of you dying from a gunshot from 0% to some percentage above that. Good thing you minded your own business otherwise you might not be here to post about it. Guy could have been a freaking lunatic, how would you ever know. This country’s gun mentality is literally stupid. 

 
Amused to Death said:
I think its funny that people who buy items expressly made for killing don't want the government to know who owns them.
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Why is this funny?  A gun that somebody has had for 10 years is suddenly the governments business? 

Stay the #### out of law following citizens bedrooms and gun safes.  How about that? 

 
When I read threads like this I'm thankful the founders didn't think having a horse and carriage was a right. Think about all the unlicenced drivers and cars we'd have today

 
Courtjester said:
As if on cue, I went in my local liquor store tonight and the guy going in front me had a gun tucked in the waste band of his jeans in the small of his back. Had to say it gave me a little pause standing in line behind him. 
Click to expand...
See, even with a permit you shouldn’t be able to plaxico your gun around town. In a holster, on your hip/chest/ankle, not in your sweatpants or stuffed in your sock. What if you were a criminal? You could have just grabbed it out of his waistband and held the place up. 

 
timschochet said:
Just so you know, this paranoia that the government is coming to seize your guns is not only irrational, it makes all of you that express it sound like nutjobs to the vast majority of the public. 
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What about a red dawn scenario, where Russia, China etc invade, they now know who has guns...

 
Snorkelson said:
See, even with a permit you shouldn’t be able to plaxico your gun around town. In a holster, on your hip/chest/ankle, not in your sweatpants or stuffed in your sock. What if you were a criminal? You could have just grabbed it out of his waistband and held the place up. 
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[channeling SC]

You better not turn any of that responsibility on the law abiding gun owner if that happened.  

 
stlrams said:
timschochet said:
Just so you know, this paranoia that the government is coming to seize your guns is not only irrational, it makes all of you that express it sound like nutjobs to the vast majority of the public. 
Click to expand...
What about a red dawn scenario, where Russia, China etc invade, they now know who has guns...
Click to expand...
The irony here is that a Red Dawn scenario is probably more likely than the US government coming to confiscate everyone's guns :lol:

It is absolutely amazing to watch a group of people grip so tight to certain portions of the Constitution and in the exact same breath do all they can to ignore other parts.  In this case it's in the exact same amendment :lmao:  

 
Widbil83 said:
Why is this funny?  A gun that somebody has had for 10 years is suddenly the governments business? 

Stay the #### out of law following citizens bedrooms and gun safes.  How about that? 
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Suddenly?  Shouldn't be...should be their business from the beginning.  Because they haven't done their jobs til now doesn't mean they shouldn't start.

 
Courtjester said:
It isn't to me. I am not trying to be a jerk, but explain to me how registering a gun would tell LE who did it. 

I have worked it through my head to see if I follow this logic. If a gun is stolen and it is used in a crime later on, that doesn't tell anyone who did the crime. I understand it could impact the person if they were negligent in storing the firearm, but it doesn't solve the crime which is what Tim is suggesting.  If someone is killed on my property by my gun, it still doesn't tell who pulled the trigger. 

Just trying to find the other side of the coin here. The ONLY thing that I see positive about this bill is if people registered their firearms (but this would take 100% compliance by ALL--including criminals) is if LE is dispatched to a location, they could call up the house from the database and see what type of weapons they are up against. Again, this would only be useful if the homeowner complied. 
Click to expand...
I would think that law enforcement would have some additional information in trying to solve a case. Example - Firearm licensed to Courtjester was used in a shooting. We know it wasn't him because he was on vacation. But who had acceess to his house? Who robbed him? Was it a family friend? His estranged son in law?

All those little bits of info add up and that is info they would not have if it was just a random gun 

 
Snorkelson said:
See, even with a permit you shouldn’t be able to plaxico your gun around town. In a holster, on your hip/chest/ankle, not in your sweatpants or stuffed in your sock. What if you were a criminal? You could have just grabbed it out of his waistband and held the place up. 
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You could do the same with the guy's socks! You want to ban socks now?

 
I own about 7 guns all of them for hunting purposes. They range from a single shot muzzle loader .50 caliber , semi auto .22, lever action .243, 3 semi auto 12 gauge shotguns(2 of which are family heirlooms from my father and grandfather I no longer use) and a semi auto 30.06. 

It has been 30 years since I belonged to the NRA. I support legislation for more background checks, banning large magazine clips, bump stocks and assault rifles(these are the guns Sen Feinstein was referring to when she wanted to take them all- assault rifles) But I have issues with registering all my guns every year. Right here on FBG there have been those who say I don't need a semi auto for hunting. They like some legislators would support banning all semi autos. That's where I draw the line. One of the most popular shotguns ever is the Browning Auto 5, millions were produced. I own one, so does my brother.

If particular guns were banned (assault rifles, maybe semi auto)and they had been registered why wouldn't the government use this info to confiscate those guns?

 
the moops said:
I would think that law enforcement would have some additional information in trying to solve a case. Example - Firearm licensed to Courtjester was used in a shooting. We know it wasn't him because he was on vacation. But who had acceess to his house? Who robbed him? Was it a family friend? His estranged son in law?

All those little bits of info add up and that is info they would not have if it was just a random gun 
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You people make it sound like guns are consistently left at the scene of a crime.  They aren't.

The chances are that if LE knows the serial # of the weapon, they have already arrested the perpetrator of the crime and the weapon is most likely, stolen.

Locating the weapon is extremely helpful in finding out who commited a shooting because they can match the bullet to the gun then linking the gun to the shooter....not the gun to the owner.

I just wonder how many gun crimes are committed by someone who had legally purchased the gun that was used.

Just as in immigration, some people have trouble with the words, "Illegal" and "legal".

 
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