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Why is a fumble so much worse than an interception? (1 Viewer)

tone1oc

Footballguy
Given Pierce's benching after his first fumble of his NFL career and also Ridley's career being completely stopped in NE over a couple fumbles I wonder why fumble's have seemingly become such a deal breaker.

Of course the notion of fumbles being a bad thing or a player being benched for fumbling isn't new, but it seems odd that two young and promising RBs who have been productive could seemingly be jettisoned so easily. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with positional scarcity and in general the investment at QB is much higher, but it does make me wonder though why a single fumble is the golden sin and a couple INTs is no big deal.

A turnover is a turnover right?

 
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By and large fumbling is a simple, fundamentals mistake. You hold the ball properly and it's very tough to fumble. Into are much more chance driven and not in near as much control of the QB, normally.

 
Given Pierce's benching after his first fumble of his NFL career and also Ridley's career being completely stopped in NE over a couple fumbles I wonder why fumble's have seemingly become such a deal breaker.

Of course the notion of fumbles being a bad thing or a player being benched for fumbling isn't new, but it seems odd that two young and promising RBs who have been productive could seemingly be jettisoned so easily. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with positional scarcity and in general the investment at QB is much higher, but it does make me wonder though why a single fumble is the golden sin and a couple INTs is no big deal.

A turnover is a turnover right?
go find me the coach and qb who says a couple int's are no big deal and then we can continue the discussion

 
Many interceptions come at a long distance so it's basically like a punt. :shrugs:

Qbs are usually the leader/driver of the offense and run the offense. Harder to just sit them.

 
Given Pierce's benching after his first fumble of his NFL career and also Ridley's career being completely stopped in NE over a couple fumbles I wonder why fumble's have seemingly become such a deal breaker.

Of course the notion of fumbles being a bad thing or a player being benched for fumbling isn't new, but it seems odd that two young and promising RBs who have been productive could seemingly be jettisoned so easily. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with positional scarcity and in general the investment at QB is much higher, but it does make me wonder though why a single fumble is the golden sin and a couple INTs is no big deal.

A turnover is a turnover right?
go find me the coach and qb who says a couple int's are no big deal and then we can continue the discussion
True, poor choice of words. Point remains, a QB can throw 10 INTs a year and not be pegged as an INT-machine, yet a RB could fumble twice in a season and get tagged a fumbler.

Many interceptions come at a long distance so it's basically like a punt. :shrugs:

Qbs are usually the leader/driver of the offense and run the offense. Harder to just sit them.
I agree, just interesting to think about the different dynamic for each position. QB definitely has a longer leash.

 
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Cheap labor. They have two jobs, unless your a star you need to move in a forward direction and not drop the ball. If you cant do half your job, your not fit to do it.

 
There is a known risk, even with elite quarterbacks, when you throw a football down the field with potentially 8 pass-catching defensemen.

There should never be a risk of a turnover when the ball carrier holds that ball to his body

It is much worse to fumble a football than to throw an interception, simply because there should be little-no risk when you choose to hand the ball to someone to advance it - normally conceding the big-play potential to guarantee some yardage

 
I generally agree that if a RB coughs the ball up, the team many times will have a much shorter leash and not tolerate it. By comparison, most teams will not elect to move on from a QB very quickly, especially if the QB is a long time veteran. IIRC, Kurt Warner started a season with 8 picks and only 1 TD early in the season in the first three games and the Rams still ran him out there (and then he got hurt). I also seem to remember Daunte Culpepper throwing 8 picks (to go with 3 lost fumbles) in the first 2 games of a season, and the Vikes still kept starting him. Seems like there are different rules.

 
By and large fumbling is a simple, fundamentals mistake. You hold the ball properly and it's very tough to fumble. Into are much more chance driven and not in near as much control of the QB, normally.
Pierce's fumble was not a fundamentals mistake - Burfict would have stripped the ball from anyone on that play.

 
By and large fumbling is a simple, fundamentals mistake. You hold the ball properly and it's very tough to fumble. Into are much more chance driven and not in near as much control of the QB, normally.
Pierce's fumble was not a fundamentals mistake - Burfict would have stripped the ball from anyone on that play.
I agree, it was a great defensive play.

There is a known risk, even with elite quarterbacks, when you throw a football down the field with potentially 8 pass-catching defensemen.

There should never be a risk of a turnover when the ball carrier holds that ball to his body

It is much worse to fumble a football than to throw an interception, simply because there should be little-no risk when you choose to hand the ball to someone to advance it - normally conceding the big-play potential to guarantee some yardage
Very good point, but are we really to expect a RB to never fumble?

 
By and large fumbling is a simple, fundamentals mistake. You hold the ball properly and it's very tough to fumble. Into are much more chance driven and not in near as much control of the QB, normally.
Pierce's fumble was not a fundamentals mistake - Burfict would have stripped the ball from anyone on that play.
Meh, I've never meet a coach that would agree with that. You hold onto the ball properly and fumbles don't happen. Not that I necessarily agree. There are times defenders just make great plays that are hard to ignore. None the less, a RB or ball carrier has far more control over the situation than a QB or passer.
 
Walter Payton had 86 career fumbles, I wonder if he did that today on BB's team would he get benched for a marginal talent that may only get your 2-3 yards a carry but won't fumble.

 
Walter Payton had 86 career fumbles, I wonder if he did that today on BB's team would he get benched for a marginal talent that may only get your 2-3 yards a carry but won't fumble.
Maybe he just learns to not fumble as much and still has a HOF career.
 
Given Pierce's benching after his first fumble of his NFL career and also Ridley's career being completely stopped in NE over a couple fumbles I wonder why fumble's have seemingly become such a deal breaker.

Of course the notion of fumbles being a bad thing or a player being benched for fumbling isn't new, but it seems odd that two young and promising RBs who have been productive could seemingly be jettisoned so easily. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with positional scarcity and in general the investment at QB is much higher, but it does make me wonder though why a single fumble is the golden sin and a couple INTs is no big deal.

A turnover is a turnover right?
go find me the coach and qb who says a couple int's are no big deal and then we can continue the discussion
True, poor choice of words. Point remains, a QB can throw 10 INTs a year and not be pegged as an INT-machine, yet a RB could fumble twice in a season and get tagged a fumbler.
first of all, I'd guess that's either you or some random message board nerd doing the tagging.

secondly, a qb might throw 600x during the year --- how many rb do you expect to carry the ball 600x?

and also, if you want to sit manning for osweiler over a pick I'm sure denver fans are happy you don't run their team

 
Walter Payton had 86 career fumbles, I wonder if he did that today on BB's team would he get benched for a marginal talent that may only get your 2-3 yards a carry but won't fumble.
ohhhh...I see --- you mean just like how he benched hall of fame bound ridley for that marginal talent blount who barely managed 430 yards and 8 td in 3 games?

I see the parallel you're making.

you're really opening my eyes on this.

 
first of all, I'd guess that's either you or some random message board nerd doing the tagging.

secondly, a qb might throw 600x during the year --- how many rb do you expect to carry the ball 600x?

and also, if you want to sit manning for osweiler over a pick I'm sure denver fans are happy you don't run their team
first of all, I don't know why this makes you melty

secondly, I understand that a qb throws the ball much more than rb runs -- I wanted to discuss what to me feels like a relatively new trend of fumbles being a potential career killer. If you just want to be a condescending jerk (as per the usual) could you get your rocks off in another thread?

 
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Not throwing interceptions is really hard -- especially the ones that are the receivers' fault. Not fumbling, at least theoretically, is easy.

 
Not throwing interceptions is really hard -- especially the ones that are the receivers' fault. Not fumbling, at least theoretically, is easy.
I'm a relatively younger fan so my historical viewpoint is limited, but am I off-base when thinking that fumbles in general have become a bigger deal?

 
Fumbles are much rarer than INTs. Alfred Morris led all RBs last year with 5. Eli threw 27 picks. Top RBs have shown it can be done.

 
Walter Payton had 86 career fumbles, I wonder if he did that today on BB's team would he get benched for a marginal talent that may only get your 2-3 yards a carry but won't fumble.
why are we comparing Steven Ridley's situation to HOF Walter Payton?

 
first of all, I'd guess that's either you or some random message board nerd doing the tagging.

secondly, a qb might throw 600x during the year --- how many rb do you expect to carry the ball 600x?

and also, if you want to sit manning for osweiler over a pick I'm sure denver fans are happy you don't run their team
first of all, I don't know why this makes you melty

secondly, I understand that a qb throws the ball much more than rb runs -- I wanted to discuss what to me feels like a relatively new trend of fumbles being a potential career killer. If you just want to be a condescending jerk (as per the usual) could you get your rocks off in another thread?
:lmao: what happened to the shark pool?

I don't know what melty is --- is it anything like this post I quoted?

 
Not throwing interceptions is really hard -- especially the ones that are the receivers' fault. Not fumbling, at least theoretically, is easy.
I'm a relatively younger fan so my historical viewpoint is limited, but am I off-base when thinking that fumbles in general have become a bigger deal?
Yes, you are off base. Coaches have always hated fumbling. From my first practice playing pee wee football in 1985 the coach told all of us that played RB the number one rule is hold onto the ball. And the number 2 rule is hold onto the ball.

It's really not that hard to figure out. Throwing the ball is inherently more prone to turnovers because of everything involved. One of the main advantages of throwing is that you will gain more yards per play with the downside being more risk. One of the main advantages of running the ball is that there is decidedly less risk of turning the ball over with the downside being less yards per play.

So a fumble is worse than an interception and coaches have felt this way since the forward pass was introduced to the game. Look up some quotes from Woody Hayes.

It's nothing new. Football coaches hate fumbles. Always have, always will.

 
Cheap labor. They have two jobs, unless your a star you need to move in a forward direction and not drop the ball. If you cant do half your job, your not fit to do it.
:goodposting:

Basically its easier to replace or bench a RB than a QB.

If QBs were easily replaceable and RBs were difficult positions to fill where the best ones got drafted in the top portion of the draft and tons of salary cap was devoted to them then QBs would be benched if they threw INTs and coaches wouldn't dare pull RBs if they fumbled but would be more forgiving.

 
Fumbling is less common than throwing interceptions, but let's not pretend like it's something that should never happen. How many times did we have it thrown in our face that "omg Benjarvis Green-Ellis never fumbles"? If that were easy to do we wouldn't have constantly had to hear about it.

Let's also not pretend that this is only held against mediocre running backs. Tiki Barber gave up carries to Ron Dayne for years in part due to ball security issues. Not to the extent that he was benched like Ridley/Pierce, but it was still there.

If a guy is fumbling 10+ times a year, then I get it. That's like a QB throwing 20+ INTs. But one of the guys we're talking about here is a guy who had the first fumble of his career. Even Ridley just had a small handful. It seems odd to freak out over something where a "big" variation is something like a 2 turnover increase over the course of a whole season where QBs regularly fluctuate by 5-10 turnovers per season without anyone even mentioning it.

Who is a better quarterback, Cam Newton or Colin Kaepernick? When answering that, how many people considered or, better yet, how many people even knew that Cam Newton throws interceptions at twice the rate that Kaepernick does? How many people knew that Kaepernick has only thrown 11 interceptions in his whole career while Newton has never even had a season where he threw that few?

I agree that interceptions often get overlooked compared to fumbles. A guy can throw 6 in a season or 16 in a season and people rarely even notice the difference. But god forbid a running back fumbles one or two times extra.

 
A turnover is a turnover right?
Wrong.

In football, there are high-percentage, low-risk, low-reward plays...there are low-percentage, high-risk, high-reward plays...and there are plays all along the continuum in between. AND, there are offenses built around these principles, to greater or lesser extents.

In a very general sense, a game built around field position and three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust works because a coach knows that he is going to have success moving the ball X percent of the time...he is going to win the field position battle when he doesn't move the ball all that well...and just about the only thing that can really go wrong is his running back dropping the ball. Happily, that happens fairly rarely.

A game built upon a series of quick slants and short-hitting passes and usage of the backs in space -- e.g., the WCO -- is a little higher risk. But is still fairly low risk. A coach knows that he's going to gain more yards each time a play is successful than he would simply handing the ball off. And there's going to be a slightly greater probability that any given play goes the whole way. But there's also increased chance the play will go absolutely nowhere (incomplete), or that the other team will get the ball (interception).

A game built upon a vertical attack is highest-risk. A coach here knows that he's going to get more yards per successful play. He knows that there's an even better chance any given play will go all the way and/or result in a big play. But he balances this with knowledge that such plays are going to result in a LOT more plays that result in nothing, and a good many more that result in turnovers.

These probabilities are inherent in the very gameplan, and in the offensive system in which an OC or HC designs his playbook. You simply don't WANT a vertical passing attack to have zero or very few interceptions. If you do, it means you're leaving a ton of yards and points on the table, because your QB is not risking plays downfield often enough. This is why it's silly when you see people try to compare a Joe Montana or Steve Young to a Terry Bradshaw, Dan Fouts, or Joe Namath. Those older guys played in offenses designed to generate big plays downfield at high risk. And when those offenses went well, those teams finished at or near the top of the league.

The WCO guys can and should have far greater TD:INT ratios, but should certainly still have their fair share of INT's. If they don't, if they simply rely 100% on the short, easily-completed stuff, the defense can creep up and turn those short plays into blown up receivers and backs. You have to go over the top often enough that a defense can't sit on one plan, and that comes with risk, just as the quick hits in crossing patterns that can scrape off defenders and turn into big gains are the short passes that come with the most risk. It's a "safer" approach than Daryl Lamonica ball, but if you're not seeing some percentage of your passes turned over, you're just not using the plays that can keep defenses honest or turn into big plays often enough to be efficient.

All these kinds of offenses HAVE to use running plays, either so the defense can't over-commit defensive personnel to stopping the passing game, or because the run is the foundation of the whole game. But running plays don't have the same kind of risk/reward balance. There aren't long, high-risk runs. There are only runs that turn into long runs if all goes well. Part of all going well is the idea that the RB is going to hold onto the football. A coach doesn't and can't build an offense around the idea of 80 yard runs. (With the possible exception of Wayne Fontes in the 90's.) Every run begins as the shortest, lowest-risk play the offense can run, and the success of an offense is built upon the idea that while a successful run will most likely generate only a handful of yards, failed ones that result in turnovers will happen very, very rarely.

That isn't to say all interceptions are fine. Interceptions that are the result of bad throws and stupid decisions are the mistakes of the passing game, and every one of those will drive the coach nuts. Just as missed assignments and fumbles are the mistakes of the running game, and every one of those will drive the coaches nuts, too. A QB can have 15 INT's in a season and conceivably have all of them come on good throws, in intelligent plays. Sometimes, good defenders just make plays downfield. The vast majority of fumbles are just sloppy play by the RB's. Not all, but almost all fumbles are deserving of the groans and disgust they receive.

 
tone1oc said:
True, poor choice of words. Point remains, a QB can throw 10 INTs a year and not be pegged as an INT-machine, yet a RB could fumble twice in a season and get tagged a fumbler.
That's because there are very few quarterbacks who can avoid throwing 10 INTs in a season, while there are many running backs who can keep from fumbling twice.

 
tone1oc said:
True, poor choice of words. Point remains, a QB can throw 10 INTs a year and not be pegged as an INT-machine, yet a RB could fumble twice in a season and get tagged a fumbler.
That's because there are very few quarterbacks who can avoid throwing 10 INTs in a season, while there are many running backs who can keep from fumbling twice.
45 RB's fumbled at least twice last year.

23 fumbled 3 or more times.

 
Interesting that Ben Tate wasn't benched with 5 fumbles in 181 carries(1:36) while Ridley is considered a terrible fumbler with 5 in 178 (1:44).

 

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