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Why is the GOP and Joe Biden against cancelling student debt? (1 Viewer)

Zow said:
1. Yeah of course. 

2. That I don't know. 
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I don't either, but IMO that's an important factor as well.    It's not a great solution if during that time it also makes their credit drop and either prohibit them from getting other things or it costs even more in the long run because of higher interest rates because it effects their credit (again, IF it does).  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I don't either, but IMO that's an important factor as well.    It's not a great solution if during that time it also makes their credit drop and either prohibit them from getting other things or it costs even more in the long run because of higher interest rates because it effects their credit (again, IF it does).  
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It depends on a lot of things, but generally the debt load in and of itself makes it harder to qualify for a mortgage.  Late payments hurt a lot obviously, but every late payment that gets reported does.  But the deferment of payments in and of itself doesn't hurt a credit score (sometimes it probably helps in that it shields someone from late payments because it shows the loan as current).

 
Yankee23Fan said:
I did debate work for my Masters.  The idea that law school taught me how to see both sides of an argument isn't a strong one for me at least.  I was already there.  And yes, all of the basic fundamentals were easily taught in Bar/bri.
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Ah, that's probably the difference. 

For me, I needed to get out of the mindset I developed in college where I believed that there was always one right answer that could be derived through reason and critical thinking. I needed law school to teach me that being a lawyer often entails dealing with situations where there is no firm right answer or multiple "right" answers for varying reasons and the skill is to identify them all so you can advance your side's argument while simultaneously anticipating the other side's. 

 
Yankee23Fan said:
It depends on a lot of things, but generally the debt load in and of itself makes it harder to qualify for a mortgage.  Late payments hurt a lot obviously, but every late payment that gets reported does.  But the deferment of payments in and of itself doesn't hurt a credit score (sometimes it probably helps in that it shields someone from late payments because it shows the loan as current).
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Makes sense.  So if I read this correctly - It does because of what you to report for your Debt - Income when you apply for a loan, but it helps more than risking a late payment.  

 
Like most in here, I'm against some overarching plan to forgive student loan debt.

Honestly, I think the concept is actually a bailout of higher education institutions.  If the student loan market crashes, then the golden goose of students borrowing to fund their education dies.  The concept that it costs $40K a year or more to house, feed and teach a single student for 9 months is ridiculous.  They have bloated their budgets and formed what is a net drain on the economic output of our society.  It is similar to the financial markets, where the value added is not as much as the costs associated with the activity.

We need colleges and universities to further drive our country and economy in the future.  What we don't need is a money hoarding monster that entraps young adults before they even start their lives.  There is a happy medium there and letting the student loan market cool down is a decent first step.  The government paying off student loan debt will simply kick the can down the road and exacerbate the root cause of the problem.

 
Zow said:
Ah, that's probably the difference. 

For me, I needed to get out of the mindset I developed in college where I believed that there was always one right answer that could be derived through reason and critical thinking. I needed law school to teach me that being a lawyer often entails dealing with situations where there is no firm right answer or multiple "right" answers for varying reasons and the skill is to identify them all so you can advance your side's argument while simultaneously anticipating the other side's. 
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I get that.  But just thinking back on my law school classes (I actually have my transcript handy)

Civil Procedure was a waste because it focused on federal procedure, nothing New Jersey specific at all (there was another class for that) and in my years of practicing I don't recall more than 2 or 3 times where I ever had to worry about something I was taught being more important that the briefs already on file at the firm I worked at.

Legal writing was absolutely necessary.  No argument there.

Contracts was a waste of time.  So was Property.  In fact the property class was such a waste of time I should get my money back for that class.  It had literally nothing to do with on the ground actual property litigation or transactions at all.  I've written thousands of deeds and litigated hundreds of property cases.  Know how many times the rule of perpetuities has come up....... zero.

Constitutional Law was fun, but nothing that required law school.

Moot court was of course necessary but again, I didn't need law school for that.

My real estate transactions class was a joke.  Nothing they taught is anything close to what actually happens in a real real estate transaction.

Criminal law was all theoretical as to why we have it.  Which..... ok?

Income Tax was interesting but I was never going into tax law so it was a waste of my time - I have an accountant to talk to if I need to know anything and beyond that, I will hire them as an expert if I need them.

My New Jersey Practice and Rules class was worth every penny.  I still use those notes.  I could have taken that as a weekend long CLE though.

My election law class was nothing more than a few cases mixed into my knowledge from my B.A. and Masters.

There are more..... overall, there were maybe 4 classes that I actually learned something in.  And I will hurt my own argument with this last class - my evidence class was simply amazing in every way.  I still use my notes and memory from that class often - but I credit the professor - one of my judges - and not the class itself.  He was just amazing and able to make it something that anyone could understand.  I was in his courtroom once where he lectured 2 attorneys on contract law and evidence for the case they were arguing and I still kick myself to this day for not taking notes once he started talking.  His 15 minute lecture to them was everything law school needed to be.

And all of this I can and could have gotten with maybe 1 year of school training, Bar/bri and an apprenticeship in a court or firm.  Yeah, law school was a waste of time for the most part and absolutely a waste of money.

 
on min wage - In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Typically, labor cost percentages average 20 to 35 percent of gross sales. Appropriate percentages vary by industry, A service business might have an employee percentage of 50 percent or more, but a manufacturer will usually need to keep the figure under 30 percent. However, cutting labor costs is a balancing act.

Increase 80 million workers to $15 which is 30-50% of operating costs for a business WILL increase prices of good and services. So the low income will not see much of a raise since goods/services are going up. Fixed income like elderly and disabled, they'll not be getting raises but will have to pay more so they'll slide backwards. Middle class who won't be getting raises will pay more for goods and services so they too will slide backwards.

I'm sorry, flipping a burger or running a register at Kroger isn't highly skilled and worth $15 an hour. It isn't

on student debt - One problem is a person needs personal responsibility on the debt they take. Another problem is what about all the people that worked so hard to get scholarships and worked jobs in college to pay their bills, that's a massive slap in the face to them. Third problem, the working people of this country without degree's are now shackled with the debt of those who have degree's

nobody tricked anyone into taking debt - they knowingly did it. They are responsible for it and I think low interest debt is fine for college, but nothing is free and for the Fed Govt to pay off large portions with money from hard working Americans? That's wrong IMO

 
So we have two problems. The first one, as others have pointed out, is the high cost of college. 
The second problem is that we have millions of young people in this country with a ton of student debt. Because of that debt, they can’t afford to invest in society, mainly through the purchase of homes, the way their parents and grandparents did. This failure to invest has destabilized our society, shrunk the middle class, and increased the distance between the haves and have nots. 
The main reason I am in favor of some kind of debt relief is because of this second problem. But if people refuse to consider it because it’s inherently unfair, then we had better come up with some other solution. 

 
dawgtrails said:
@Stealthycat

The minumum wage hike doesn't get up to $15 until 2025 if it happens
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The one I read was a 3 year plan to get the min wage there by 2025

none the less, steady increasing in labor costs WILL steadily increase goods and services - its inevitable 

but people KNOW this - they also know that increased labor costs means deduction in hours, layoff's, replacing with automation .... companies WILL find ways to cut costs OR pass them on to consumers - likely both - and those things are all negatives on an economy

 
Stealthycat said:
on min wage - In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Typically, labor cost percentages average 20 to 35 percent of gross sales. Appropriate percentages vary by industry, A service business might have an employee percentage of 50 percent or more, but a manufacturer will usually need to keep the figure under 30 percent. However, cutting labor costs is a balancing act.

Increase 80 million workers to $15 which is 30-50% of operating costs for a business WILL increase prices of good and services. So the low income will not see much of a raise since goods/services are going up. Fixed income like elderly and disabled, they'll not be getting raises but will have to pay more so they'll slide backwards. Middle class who won't be getting raises will pay more for goods and services so they too will slide backwards.

I'm sorry, flipping a burger or running a register at Kroger isn't highly skilled and worth $15 an hour. It isn't
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You seem to be assuming that all hourly employees are making at or near minimum wage.  I think that is a mistaken assumption.

 
timschochet said:
The second problem is that we have millions of young people in this country with a ton of student debt. Because of that debt, they can’t afford to invest in society, mainly through the purchase of homes, the way their parents and grandparents did. This failure to invest has destabilized our society, shrunk the middle class, and increased the distance between the haves and have nots. 
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what other debt keeps them from investing ? auto debt? home debt? boat debt? 

they CHOSE debt short term so they could make better salaries long term right ?  what was their plan and why didn't it work?

 
John123 said:
You seem to be assuming that all hourly employees are making at or near minimum wage.  I think that is a mistaken assumption.
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I googled it and I read it wrong

https://usafacts.org/articles/minimum-wage-america-how-many-people-are-earning-725-hour/

In 1980, when the federal minimum wage was $3.10 ($9.86 in 2019 dollars), 13% of hourly workers earned the federal minimum wage or less. Today, only 1.9% of hourly workers do. The number of federal minimum wage workers has decreased from 7.7 million in 1980 to 1.6 million in 2019. 

Still, the impacts on raising fed min wages effects all hourly wages (at the lower end)

 
timschochet said:
So we have two problems. The first one, as others have pointed out, is the high cost of college. 
The second problem is that we have millions of young people in this country with a ton of student debt. Because of that debt, they can’t afford to invest in society, mainly through the purchase of homes, the way their parents and grandparents did. This failure to invest has destabilized our society, shrunk the middle class, and increased the distance between the haves and have nots. 
The main reason I am in favor of some kind of debt relief is because of this second problem. But if people refuse to consider it because it’s inherently unfair, then we had better come up with some other solution. 
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The first problem and I think you mentioned it earlier is rethinking HS education and preparing students for adulthood.  

 
timschochet said:
So we have two problems. The first one, as others have pointed out, is the high cost of college. 
The second problem is that we have millions of young people in this country with a ton of student debt. Because of that debt, they can’t afford to invest in society, mainly through the purchase of homes, the way their parents and grandparents did. This failure to invest has destabilized our society, shrunk the middle class, and increased the distance between the haves and have nots. 
The main reason I am in favor of some kind of debt relief is because of this second problem. But if people refuse to consider it because it’s inherently unfair, then we had better come up with some other solution. 
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False.  They are telling you they can't afford these things, but in many cases that's just a lie.  They don't want to sacrifice for them.  Like their parents and grandparents did.  That's the difference.

And the better solution is pay your student loan off.  Boom.  There you go.  

 
timschochet said:
So we have two problems. The first one, as others have pointed out, is the high cost of college. 
The second problem is that we have millions of young people in this country with a ton of student debt. Because of that debt, they can’t afford to invest in society, mainly through the purchase of homes, the way their parents and grandparents did. This failure to invest has destabilized our society, shrunk the middle class, and increased the distance between the haves and have nots. 
The main reason I am in favor of some kind of debt relief is because of this second problem. But if people refuse to consider it because it’s inherently unfair, then we had better come up with some other solution. 
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What about the people/familes who were fiscally resposible?  I would have loved to gone to 4 year exoensive university.  I knew right away that my family did not have the resources nor did I.   So I went 2 years to a CC and worked 20+ hours a week saving money.  Then took a year off and worked full time.  Transferred and finished at a university while still working part time.   Ended up only having around 20K total debt that I paid off pretty quickly.  

Now my cousin went right away to a university, changed his major twice, was there 6 years and is in debt over his head and decided he did not like the field his degree is in so went another direction to a job he did not need a degree.  So he will be forgiven 50k for being irresponsible?  What is it it for me?  Tax credits for bering concerned about my future and paying my own way?

 
Where does the money for this program come from?

Or where would the money have gone that now would not be collected?

As several others have mentioned, I think this money could be better used elsewhere.

 
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Summer Wheat said:
What about the people/familes who were fiscally resposible?  I would have loved to gone to 4 year exoensive university.  I knew right away that my family did not have the resources nor did I.   So I went 2 years to a CC and worked 20+ hours a week saving money.  Then took a year off and worked full time.  Transferred and finished at a university while still working part time.   Ended up only having around 20K total debt that I paid off pretty quickly.  

Now my cousin went right away to a university, changed his major twice, was there 6 years and is in debt over his head and decided he did not like the field his degree is in so went another direction to a job he did not need a degree.  So he will be forgiven 50k for being irresponsible?  What is it it for me?  Tax credits for bering concerned about my future and paying my own way?
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Tim has made it clear that that just sucks for you and to deal with it.  

 
Summer Wheat said:
What about the people/familes who were fiscally resposible?  I would have loved to gone to 4 year exoensive university.  I knew right away that my family did not have the resources nor did I.   So I went 2 years to a CC and worked 20+ hours a week saving money.  Then took a year off and worked full time.  Transferred and finished at a university while still working part time.   Ended up only having around 20K total debt that I paid off pretty quickly.  

Now my cousin went right away to a university, changed his major twice, was there 6 years and is in debt over his head and decided he did not like the field his degree is in so went another direction to a job he did not need a degree.  So he will be forgiven 50k for being irresponsible?  What is it it for me?  Tax credits for bering concerned about my future and paying my own way?
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I am just curious, was he being irresponsible in his actions?    Like I said, from my experience it seemed like quite a few of my friends and I did what you described - changed majors, took a year longer than we thought, etc... IMO that is a function of being 18 years old and having this underlying rule that everybody seems to have to go to college.  Also, did you live at home while you went to CC for those couple years? 

I get what you are saying, but I keep going back to a lot of what needs to change is the price of school, the stigma associated with not going to college, more options and paths to jobs that maybe don't REALLY need that college degree, etc.   

 
Summer Wheat said:
What about the people/familes who were fiscally resposible?  I would have loved to gone to 4 year exoensive university.  I knew right away that my family did not have the resources nor did I.   So I went 2 years to a CC and worked 20+ hours a week saving money.  Then took a year off and worked full time.  Transferred and finished at a university while still working part time.   Ended up only having around 20K total debt that I paid off pretty quickly.  

Now my cousin went right away to a university, changed his major twice, was there 6 years and is in debt over his head and decided he did not like the field his degree is in so went another direction to a job he did not need a degree.  So he will be forgiven 50k for being irresponsible?  What is it it for me?  Tax credits for bering concerned about my future and paying my own way?
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Unfortunately, you aren’t who they want to give a handout to here. It’s just those that weren’t responsible. 

 
Vegas Trip said:
Where does the money for this program come from?

Or where would the money have gone that now would not be collected?

As several others have mentioned, I think this money could be better used elsewhere.

 many of these schools have very large endowments, but the taxpayer should bail out the student?  
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One thing I notice in countless threads that really bogs down dialogue is our preconceived notions about a huge group of people.  We really need to try our best to check that stuff at the door.    Feels like in here there is a bit of assuming about the level of "being responsible" of college grads.     

 
Also, to clarify the situation, the schools aren't on the hook for anything with these loans.

The loans pay the school and then some lending institution is holding the note.  I am fairly certain the vast majority of these loans are government backed/subsidized.  As a result they have infused additional cash into the system that has further driven the costs of education up.

While letting these loans fail will hurt the students and the lending institutions in the short term, it will help drive down the costs of education.

 
Jayrod said:
Also, to clarify the situation, the schools aren't on the hook for anything with these loans.

The loans pay the school and then some lending institution is holding the note.  I am fairly certain the vast majority of these loans are government backed/subsidized.  As a result they have infused additional cash into the system that has further driven the costs of education up.

While letting these loans fail will hurt the students and the lending institutions in the short term, it will help drive down the costs of education.
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Seems like we should fix the system instead of putting a band aid on it.

 
I'm all for student loan forgiveness, but want to see it tied to some sort of public service.  

I'm all for a $15/hr minimum wage and am happy paying an extra quarter for my chalupa. 

 
timschochet said:
So we have two problems. The first one, as others have pointed out, is the high cost of college. 
The second problem is that we have millions of young people in this country with a ton of student debt. Because of that debt, they can’t afford to invest in society, mainly through the purchase of homes, the way their parents and grandparents did. This failure to invest has destabilized our society, shrunk the middle class, and increased the distance between the haves and have nots. 
The main reason I am in favor of some kind of debt relief is because of this second problem. But if people refuse to consider it because it’s inherently unfair, then we had better come up with some other solution. 
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The second problem is correct. Student debt relief isn't the answer though, which is why there's a gap in what I bolded.

 
Summer Wheat said:
What about the people/familes who were fiscally resposible?  I would have loved to gone to 4 year exoensive university.  I knew right away that my family did not have the resources nor did I.   So I went 2 years to a CC and worked 20+ hours a week saving money.  Then took a year off and worked full time.  Transferred and finished at a university while still working part time.   Ended up only having around 20K total debt that I paid off pretty quickly.  

Now my cousin went right away to a university, changed his major twice, was there 6 years and is in debt over his head and decided he did not like the field his degree is in so went another direction to a job he did not need a degree.  So he will be forgiven 50k for being irresponsible?  What is it it for me?  Tax credits for bering concerned about my future and paying my own way?
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I’ve already agreed that debt relief as a solution is unfair. I’m not going to argue against any point you made here, that would be wrong and dishonest. 
All I can do is point out that student debt is a serious problem that hurts all of us. We’re all negatively affected by it, more so every year. If we don’t choose to relieve it, what then is the solution? Status quo isn’t working. 

 
MAC_32 said:
On average, that's only the case in 4 states. That average is influenced by the top of the food chain, so the mean is quite a bit less than that. And it only considering sticker price - it doesn't consider institutional aid.
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There are schools that require freshman/sophomore/etc to stay on campus.  That needs to be a full stop especially at non-private institutions.  Schools also need to stop the self serving interest of requiring students to buy new books.  Why do i need a new english/literature/history book...did something change?

At the same time, parents and kids need to help themselves.  I don't have a lot of sympathy for a person with a bunch of debt who attended a private school.  And there are a lot of community colleges that can/should be utilized to get some of the prerequisites completed.  Not to mention kids either living with parents to attend school or renting a house instead of paying room & board 

 
rascal said:
There are schools that require freshman/sophomore/etc to stay on campus.  That needs to be a full stop especially at non-private institutions.  Schools also need to stop the self serving interest of requiring students to buy new books.  Why do i need a new english/literature/history book...did something change?

At the same time, parents and kids need to help themselves.  I don't have a lot of sympathy for a person with a bunch of debt who attended a private school.  And there are a lot of community colleges that can/should be utilized to get some of the prerequisites completed.  Not to mention kids either living with parents to attend school or renting a house instead of paying room & board 
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It's been a few years, but the data said student success and on campus residency as an underclassmen is highly correlated. 

 
Jayrod said:
Also, to clarify the situation, the schools aren't on the hook for anything with these loans.

The loans pay the school and then some lending institution is holding the note.  I am fairly certain the vast majority of these loans are government backed/subsidized.  As a result they have infused additional cash into the system that has further driven the costs of education up.

While letting these loans fail will hurt the students and the lending institutions in the short term, it will help drive down the costs of education.
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That is only true if the loans stop happening.  If loans continue to occur in the future at the same rate, it would not drive down costs.  As the loans are generally backed by the feds, I see no reason to think that just because past loans are forgiven that future loans would start drying up.

 
Shula-holic said:
I agree we should look at education costs, I know I was surprised at how much college costs had shifted from my time in college.  I just see debt forgiveness as picking winners and losers because we are rewarding those who took on more debt than they could afford and not rewarding those who made the right decision or budgeted differently and got by with less.  

I think minimum wage is a totally separate issue.  I think it starts with recognizing the minimum wage in Pasadena CA should be different than that in McComb MS.  Some of the data produced by the CBO just speaks to the issues we all should know would come from it.  You will help some and hurt others.  Maybe the case is valid that you help enough people out of poverty that throwing others to unemployment is worth it, but there have been discussions on these boards before that raising minimum wage wouldn't necessarily raise unemployment.  I think the report that came out shows that basic economics are still valid and there is a demand reaction to increasing the minimum price of labor.  I think it's a valid discussion though if we are better off or not if we raise it, I don't know the answer.  I certainly believe it should be indexed at the least.  But I just think that conversation should take place with realistic economic outcomes considered.
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Sorry...but there isn't a locale in this country where the current minimum wage provides a reasonable standard of living. Not one place where that wage allows for housing AND health care, let alone leaving anything which could be then utilized for say.....a higher education.

 
renesauz said:
Sorry...but there isn't a locale in this country where the current minimum wage provides a reasonable standard of living. Not one place where that wage allows for housing AND health care, let alone leaving anything which could be then utilized for say.....a higher education.
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I didn't say that.  That's the issue with these discussions, you're painting an argument on me I didn't make.

 
supermike80 said:
False.  They are telling you they can't afford these things, but in many cases that's just a lie.  They don't want to sacrifice for them.  Like their parents and grandparents did.  That's the difference.

And the better solution is pay your student loan off.  Boom.  There you go.  
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NO NO NO NO

Study after study is showing that the cost of education, health care, and housing are taking a FAR FAR larger portion of the middle and lower class income then they did 20+ years ago.  The idea that young people are just less willing to sacrifice is a false narrative (or, at best, a misleading narrative that ignores the real problem) 

Wages have STAGNATED, while cost of living has not. Student loan forgiveness may not be the right answer for this, and certainly isn't the whole answer, but this attitude of blaming the lower class and poor is a problem.

 
MAC_32 said:
It's been a few years, but the data said student success and on campus residency as an underclassmen is highly correlated. 
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Yes, this is correct.  The reason why universities usually require underclassmen to live on campus is because administrators believe that doing so leads to better student engagement and better overall academic outcomes. 

As a social scientist, I can't finish this post without noting for the record that correlation does not equal causation, and there is very good reason to think that engaged students who are destined for success choose to live on campus.  I don't know if forcing students to live on campus makes them more engaged -- it kind of stands to reason that it might, but I'm positive there is some causation running in the other direction too.  Regardless, it's not a money grab even if looks that way.  At worst, it's statistically illiterate people misunderstanding how correlation works.

 
renesauz said:
NO NO NO NO

Study after study is showing that the cost of education, health care, and housing are taking a FAR FAR larger portion of the middle and lower class income then they did 20+ years ago.  The idea that young people are just less willing to sacrifice is a false narrative (or, at best, a misleading narrative that ignores the real problem) 

Wages have STAGNATED, while cost of living has not. Student loan forgiveness may not be the right answer for this, and certainly isn't the whole answer, but this attitude of blaming the lower class and poor is a problem.
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Most lower class and poor dont do college.  So thats not it 

 
Mookie said:
I'm all for student loan forgiveness, but want to see it tied to some sort of public service.  

I'm all for a $15/hr minimum wage and am happy paying an extra quarter for my chalupa. 
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Gee if that were only it. But it aint.

The silliest argument by far is that raising the min wage to $15 will only affect what happens inside a McDonald's.   False

 
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Heres the part I don't understand. They were talking about 50k at one point.

Well the way federal loans worked 5 years ago was capped for undergrad. 

First year ~ 6500

Second ~7500

Third ~ 8500

Fourth/fifth ~ 9500

So the most you could take as a dependent on federal loans is 41k and that is if you went for 5 years.

The only way to take out more was for grad school or you could prove you were independently paying yourself.  I just don't get how people are graduating with 200k in federal money allegedly.

Obviously the cost of higher education is ridiculous and I paid my own way through school because I chose a school I could "afford"

 
belljr said:
Heres the part I don't understand. They were talking about 50k at one point.

Well the way federal loans worked 5 years ago was capped for undergrad. 

First year ~ 6500

Second ~7500

Third ~ 8500

Fourth/fifth ~ 9500

So the most you could take as a dependent on federal loans is 41k and that is if you went for 5 years.

The only way to take out more was for grad school or you could prove you were independently paying yourself.  I just don't get how people are graduating with 200k in federal money allegedly.

Obviously the cost of higher education is ridiculous and I paid my own way through school because I chose a school I could "afford"
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Good question, I assume by not making payments responsibly and interest owed snowballs. 

 
Can we break the cycle of auto loan and mortgage debt while we're at it.  People should be able to transport themselves in style and own homes without this burden.

 
djmich said:
Can we break the cycle of auto loan and mortgage debt while we're at it.  People should be able to transport themselves in style and own homes without this burden.
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That’s a good point, maybe us guys that paid off our student debt can get $50,000 towards our mortgage? Let’s not discriminate with these handouts. 

 
Why cancel debt?  Give ALL americans a check for 50K.  If you have student debt, credit card debt, medical debt, put it toward that.  And if you've budgeted or sacrificed you'll be rewarded and kept whole.

 
djmich said:
Can we break the cycle of auto loan and mortgage debt while we're at it.  People should be able to transport themselves in style and own homes without this burden.
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While I'm not necessarily in favor of forgiving student debt, this isn't a particularly good argument.  Bankruptcy already exists to deal with these types of debt, can cannot be used for student debt.

 
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