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Why is the GOP and Joe Biden against cancelling student debt? (1 Viewer)

dawgtrails said:
Really? If we told/encouraged everyone to not take a loan to become a teacher and instead take a loan to become a CPA instead, you don't think that would have an effect of supply?
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I'm not sure what you mean by the term "encouraged" in this context.  I'd say the market already "encourages" people more to become a CPA more than it does a teacher due to monetary reasons already. 

Again, I'm not saying every loan is bad here.  But I would say taking a loan to go to a school like, let's just choose a private and expensive one in Vanderbilt, is a very bad idea if your plan is to become a teacher.  It's not just a mistake, it's a colossal one.  We should absolutely be trying to steer those in college away from making those kinds of financial mistakes.  That has no impact on those who choose to do two year community college first or go to a state school, etc.  But people who aren't from wealthy families probably shouldn't be going to the higher cost schools to make $40K/year jobs, no matter the profession.  It's not to say we discourage anyone from becoming a teacher or getting a loan, but we should be steering them toward the more financially feasible way to get that degree they want to be successful.

 
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Do they have to have a certain grade point to get the loan paid? Or are they going to pay off loans that someone dropped out because they were failing?  I’m all for 0% or low interest student loans, but this complete forgiveness is crazy

 
djmich said:
Except that’s not how things work.

“We” don’t tell people what loans to take for what jobs.  They decide.  And apparently the ####ty pay isn’t stopping them from becoming teachers.
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OK I concede.

But instead of arguing we should just pay teachers more money, yea? Then we could get a whole new crop of people who would be willing to take a loan for a non ####ty paying job

 
dawgtrails said:
OK I concede.

But instead of arguing we should just pay teachers more money, yea? Then we could get a whole new crop of people who would be willing to take a loan for a non ####ty paying job
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I’m not necessarily for paying teachers more or less, just not familiar enough with the market to form an opinion.

Theres also a lot more that goes into a job than just salary.  Summers off?  Crazy holidays?  Pension?  Feeling good about your work?  Less stress than most corporate rat race jobs.

Also the fact that these are government jobs in some ways distorts salaries...I’m sure the best teachers are underpaid and the worst are overpaid.

 
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djmich said:
I’m not necessarily for paying teachers more or less, just not familiar enough with the market to form an opinion.

Theres a lot more that goes into a job than just salary.  Summers off?  Crazy holidays?  Pension?  Feeling good about your work?  Less stress than most corporate rat race jobs.

Also the fact that these are government jobs in some ways distorts salaries...I’m sure the best teachers are underpaid and the worst are overpaid.
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No chance here friend

 
djmich said:
No two jobs/situations the same but I’m pretty sure I’m correct on average.

Are you familiar with tenure?
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Yes. Are you familiar with the first 4 years of teaching when you don't know what the hell you are doing and worry hourly about how much you are ####### up the lives of 100+ teenagers? :)

 
yak651 said:
Do they have to have a certain grade point to get the loan paid? Or are they going to pay off loans that someone dropped out because they were failing?  I’m all for 0% or low interest student loans, but this complete forgiveness is crazy
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Under the Biden plan? Come on , man.  

 
renesauz said:
See.....the same folks who say this are the ones who then say it's poor peoples fault that they are poor because they haven't trained up or learned a better task for a better job.

There's a terrible disconnect that I just don't get. 
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I don't think the two are the same.  A lot of people are born into poverty and it's incredibily difficult to escape.  Poverty and student loan debt/bad paying career choices aren't one and the same. 

You choose to take out a loan.  You sign up for a responsibility.  You should do some research and know that a 60,000$ education for a 32,000$  job isn't the best idea.  

We forgive 100 trillion or whatever amount in student loans now.  And the next several generations repeat the same mistakes.  It doesn't fix the problem

I would support allowing people to file bankruptcy on the loans.  Because that has some negative effect on your life.  Young people need to be taught that your decisions have consequences and we need to put them in a position to succeed. "Hey, we'll make your bad decision go away" doesn't do that.  It allows future students to repeat those bad decisions.  

The process of financing higher education is the problem.  Giving 18 year old kids 10's of thousands of dollars with no real understanding of the repercussions is obviously a bad idea.  We need more emphasis on community college, trade schools, etc.  Forgiving student loans band aids a problem until the next generation is in the same situation and we just keep forgiving loans until the end of time.

 
Sea Duck said:
:goodposting:

I'd also like to hear an explanation of why ex-students who spend their discretionary funds on luxury items should be put into the same category as ex-students who spend their discretionary funds towards paying down their student debt.
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:eek:

2/10/21

I completely agree w Sea Duck. 

 
Sea Duck said:
I oppose debt forgiveness on principle.

I am willing to entertain a limited form of debt mitigation if it's in exchange for some kind of service provided, but only if it prioritizes people who were already making a concerted effort to pay back their loans.
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Fortunately that program is already in place. It's called loan payments.

 
djmich said:
I’m not necessarily for paying teachers more or less, just not familiar enough with the market to form an opinion.

Theres also a lot more that goes into a job than just salary.  Summers off?  Crazy holidays?  Pension?  Feeling good about your work?  Less stress than most corporate rat race jobs.

Also the fact that these are government jobs in some ways distorts salaries...I’m sure the best teachers are underpaid and the worst are overpaid.
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Not all types of stress are the same, but teaching can be very, very stressful.

My wife is a teacher and I'm in the business world.  Neither of us can do the others job.  She'd wilt in the cutthroat environment and I would go to jail after assaulting a horrible parent.

 
Jayrod said:
Not all types of stress are the same, but teaching can be very, very stressful.

My wife is a teacher and I'm in the business world.  Neither of us can do the others job.  She'd wilt in the cutthroat environment and I would go to jail after assaulting a horrible parent.
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My wife and I've had this exact conversation.  She tells me all the time I'd be fired within 24 hours for cursing out some parent because I'd snap and I'm used to just doing whatever I want day to day in business.  She's not wrong.

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
Sea Duck said:
I oppose debt forgiveness on principle.

I am willing to entertain a limited form of debt mitigation if it's in exchange for some kind of service provided, but only if it prioritizes people who were already making a concerted effort to pay back their loans.
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Fortunately that program is already in place. It's called loan payments.
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While I do occasionally experience a certain feeling of satisfaction from aimlessly proclaiming "Pay your bills, deadbeat!" from the comfort of my paid-for couch, the problem with that mentality is that sometimes the deadbeats never pay their bills. Which can mean that the taxpayers -- including me and, presumably, you -- end up eating the bill.

I'd like to find new ways to squeeze some blood from those proverbial turnips.

 
There are already programs in place for people that cant afford to pay their student loans. 

It breaks my heart they have to fill out some paperwork...

 
The left thinks its a great idea for people who couldn't afford to go to college to subsidize someone elses student debt from a unused degree?  Sounds like a winning plan, good lord.

I did hear of a better plan - pay off the used car loans.  That would free up Little Johnnies money so he can pay off his $50K student loan in majoring in kegstands.  While we are at it, lets look at the cost of these colleges.  

 
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renesauz said:
See.....the same folks who say this are the ones who then say it's poor peoples fault that they are poor because they haven't trained up or learned a better task for a better job.

There's a terrible disconnect that I just don't get. 
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Wait a minute..what?  So if someone takes out a 400K on a house and makes 30K a year in income and eventually cant make the mortgage payments what should happen? Should they lose the home?  

That's the disconnect here.  They CHOSE to take out these loans.   Jeez.  

 
supermike80 said:
Wait a minute..what?  So if someone takes out a 400K on a house and makes 30K a year in income and eventually cant make the mortgage payments what should happen? Should they lose the home?  

That's the disconnect here.  They CHOSE to take out these loans.   Jeez.  
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And it ignores the fact that training does not have to equal $200k of tuition.

 
We need to know more about the school district that isn’t paying well.  If you are in a poor area, not many tax dollars coming in for teachers.  My brother and his wife are both HS teachers and do very well.  Heck, they got raises this year thanks to the hot housing market.  

 
A lot of the arguments against student loan relief is that it’s unfair, and that’s true. But let’s be clear: all government spending is inherently unfair. We don’t base spending policy on fairness, we base it on what is good for society, if you want to argue that relieving these loans is bad for society, that’s the discussion we should be having. Not whether or not it’s unfair. 

 
timschochet said:
A lot of the arguments against student loan relief is that it’s unfair, and that’s true. But let’s be clear: all government spending is inherently unfair. We don’t base spending policy on fairness, we base it on what is good for society, if you want to argue that relieving these loans is bad for society, that’s the discussion we should be having. Not whether or not it’s unfair. 
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Board,

Please don't listen to Tim. No one here should be able to dictate what is or is not relevant when it comes to a discussion topic.  I know Tim is not an admin, so feel free to ignore his direction.    I welcome anyone's opinion on the fairness as well as any other reasons...these are all relevant and important items.  Regardless of how Tim feels.

 
supermike80 said:
Board,

Please don't listen to Tim. No one here should be able to dictate what is or is not relevant when it comes to a discussion topic.  I know Tim is not an admin, so feel free to ignore his direction.    I welcome anyone's opinion on the fairness as well as any other reasons...these are all relevant and important items.  Regardless of how Tim feels.
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This is wrong. Let me correct myself: when I wrote “that’s the discussion we should be having” I meant that it’s the discussion we WILL be having. Please ignore the word “should”. As Board Dictator, I declare that anyone who goes against my ruling will be punished. 

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
If you believe this, you're already a Democrat. 
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No, it means I am not a Trump supporter (I honestly don't understand anyone that is unless it is a strictly ends justify the means thought process) or a supporter of the win at any cost mentality that is rampant in Washington.  Both parties do it, Mitch has taken it just a little farther than Reid did and I detest them both.  Neither party gives a crap about the country as a whole anymore, if they ever really did...at least they used to give it lip service and tried to compromise at times.

 
whoknew said:
Canceling student debt is a terrible idea. 

If you want to help people in need, help people in need. Canceling debt across the board does not do that.
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You and I have very different worldviews, but this is one where I think we share common ground on an issue that's really a pretty big deal.  I would love to scrap many of the piece-meal programs that provide support for very specific groups of people and replace those with a BIG or something.  

 
I wish both sides would stop looking at the extremes and focus on the root problem, that the average cost of a college education is wildly out of control and (in many cases) the ROI is simply not there. (and thats coming from an adjunct college professor) 

But that dovetails into the minimum-wage discussion. We have a huge problems in this country where too many people are living in minimum wage positions. We have become a service based economy and minimum wage jobs are the only jobs people sometimes can get. Minimum wage positions were not supposed to be a long term employment option, they were to get you started or for younger workers with no experience. 

The bigger problem is the very large gap in what are considered non-minimum wage office jobs—that require a degree or education—not being too far off hourly from a (soon to be) $15/hr minimum wage, no-skill job. A $45k year job when broken down hourly is only $21.50ish an hour. Then factor in things like benefits, retirement, and now student loans to get that office job and you are well below minimum wage. 

I am very much a republican, but I am concerned about the widening gap in pay for CEOs and higher level executives and their general workforce. Granted, the individual workforce value is set by the market, but that market is controlled by people who are making 100x their mid level employees and companies that are profiting in the millions-to-billions. 

 
dawgtrails said:
Really? If we told/encouraged everyone to not take a loan to become a teacher and instead take a loan to become a CPA instead, you don't think that would have an effect of supply?
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So you should be pushing for raises for teachers instead of retroactively giving them free college

 
timschochet said:
A lot of the arguments against student loan relief is that it’s unfair, and that’s true. But let’s be clear: all government spending is inherently unfair. We don’t base spending policy on fairness, we base it on what is good for society, if you want to argue that relieving these loans is bad for society, that’s the discussion we should be having. Not whether or not it’s unfair. 
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Sweet.  Cancel my mortgage and car payment while you're at it.  I'll make it good for society

 
I oppose cancelling of the student loan debt. I think that money would be better spent on infrastructure packages to help these people with college degrees get a job.

Or even better, just not spend that money at all so our grandkids have to pay for less of our expenses.

 
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rascal said:
I'm against eliminating debt but for raising minimum wage.  Nobody forced them to go to college.  I paid ny debt, so can they.
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These arguments make me cringe a bit - I did _____, so why can't everybody??    

That said, no- nobody "forces" anybody to go to college.  But I think it's ignorant to say that it's not the unwritten idea for most people in HS.   It's baked into the HS experience and most jobs we think of and want for our kids involve going to college.    Back when our old asses went to school, the income to debt ratio was a lot more manageable too, so that is a factor in the equation as well.  

Anyway, I am against the idea of just wiping away the debt.  I would rather us tackle the the problem of the exploding college fees, and IMO we should treat student loans the same way we do other debt in that you are able to declare bankruptcy, etc.   I am guessing part of the exploding tuition is baked into that part.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
You and I have very different worldviews, but this is one where I think we share common ground on an issue that's really a pretty big deal.  I would love to scrap many of the piece-meal programs that provide support for very specific groups of people and replace those with a BIG or something.  
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Welcome to the party pal.

We have 2.

Have some work to do.

 
supermike80 said:
Board,

Please don't listen to Tim. No one here should be able to dictate what is or is not relevant when it comes to a discussion topic.  I know Tim is not an admin, so feel free to ignore his direction.    I welcome anyone's opinion on the fairness as well as any other reasons...these are all relevant and important items.  Regardless of how Tim feels.
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Why is it so hard for you guys that ##### about him the most to hit that ignore button and follow your own advice?

 
I actually come down on the side of canceling student loan debt . The fairytale that is propagated in middle and high schools that going to college is the way to nirvana needs to be changed. Too many buy into this . The system is a hamster wheel 

 
KarmaPolice said:
These arguments make me cringe a bit - I did _____, so why can't everybody??    

That said, no- nobody "forces" anybody to go to college.  But I think it's ignorant to say that it's not the unwritten idea for most people in HS.   It's baked into the HS experience and most jobs we think of and want for our kids involve going to college.    Back when our old asses went to school, the income to debt ratio was a lot more manageable too, so that is a factor in the equation as well.  

Anyway, I am against the idea of just wiping away the debt.  I would rather us tackle the the problem of the exploding college fees, and IMO we should treat student loans the same way we do other debt in that you are able to declare bankruptcy, etc.   I am guessing part of the exploding tuition is baked into that part.  
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What makes it worse now is many schools closed trades classes.   Kids are kind of forced to go to college now.  Not everyone is cut out for the business world.  Not only will they drop out at a higher rate, they will have no job skills, and saddled with debt.

 
Kal El said:
Debt cancellation won’t solve the problem of college being stupidly expensive for a degree that won’t always help the student in the future. There should be a focus on cheaper alternatives like trade schools and such, so students can find careers that don’t start them in a massive financial hole.
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I understand this sentiment, but I think what really always gets overlooked with the college/university experience are the intangibles such as the personal growth the environment instills in the person attending. In other words, while I personally don't use every aspect of my liberal arts degree in my day to day life (although it'd be fun to start writing for fun again or pontificate over differing religious and cultural philosophies), I very much value the growth being at a university and engaged with a lot of what it had to offer has afforded me and I think that holds real value and probably isn't something I would have gotten at a trade school. 

The above said, while I'm still paying for my student loans nearly 20 years later after I started my freshman (HFS), of my monthly bills that isn't a payment I mind at all making and would probably pay 3x the tuition to be able to return again. So, personally, I think this debt cancellation push is unnecesary and unfair to other taxpayers who didn't attend because I think the cost of college is reasonable (i.e. not "stupidly expensive") and therefore the one benefiting should pay for it. But, based on my conversations with others and my fb newsfeed, I recognize my thinking is likely the minority viewpoint. 

In looking at this in terms of a nationwide stimulus plan as opposed to some correcting of an injustice, I do see some merit in it that freeing up student loan debt from a lot of us (presumably with decent paying jobs) would infuse more expendable funds into the buying community and may help jumpstart the economy and encourage people to attend college who may not otherwise (arguably an overall good think for the country as a whole). In that sense, I sort of see it like the farm subsidy policies we have instated to help keep local agriculture going and food costs somewhat down. I should note that I don't agree with farm subsidies in terms of the political theory behind it so I similarly remain philosophically opposed to student debt cancellation, but I can see the argument for both policies from a practical economic standpoint. 

 
HellToupee said:
I actually come down on the side of canceling student loan debt . The fairytale that is propagated in middle and high schools that going to college is the way to nirvana needs to be changed. Too many buy into this . The system is a hamster wheel 
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FairWarning said:
What makes it worse now is many schools closed trades classes.   Kids are kind of forced to go to college now.  Not everyone is cut out for the business world.  Not only will they drop out at a higher rate, they will have no job skills, and saddled with debt.
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I agree with these couple posts.   

I am getting old and cynical, but I also know a lot (me included) of people that went to college that honestly didn't know what they wanted to do, it was just what was next.   It's odd that we make 18 year olds decide what they want to do with the rest of their life and make it really expensive and they are Fd if they choose incorrectly.    How many of us know people that changed majors a few times, took 6 years to graduate, ended up going to school but not finishing or not using the degree, etc, etc..  Yes, I get the argument that nobody is "forcing" them to do this after HS, but if we don't have honest dialogue and give HS students other choices like trade schools, etc.  while not forcing them we are for sure tilting the system toward that route for most of them.  

 
Karma - I get more Cynical by the day.  I remember my HS offered wood shop, welding, and metal working.  The next school from me had a auto garage. The students could take classes at each other’s school.  I knew it wasn’t for me.  What if it wasn’t offered and I never tried it?   

 
Reflecting on the experience of both attending college and law school, I think what I found most lacking about the process is that nobody ever talked to me or explained to me the impact of a student loan and/or what I was actually "buying." In other words, it's almost as if colleges - especially liberal arts schools - need a re-branding so that the intrinsic and intangible values are placed more in the forefront. I do remember in law school some classmates of mine taking out the max in student loans (you could always tell which ones did because they were buying the group rounds at the bar) and it was pretty clear they hadn't given a single thought to the long-term implications of doing so and how that compound interest would come back to bite them on it one day. So, yeah, I do wish either high schools or some other mechanism would do a better job of explaining to those undertaking these econonic endeavors will cost later on. 

Somebody earlier posted that if the sole goal of going to college is to make money it may wind up being a -EV proposition for many to pay the full price and live on campus and pay for that using loans. I don't disagree (although I haven't actually run the numbers to confirm). But, I think the college/post-graduate experience should be looked at as much more than a money-making endeavor and potential students should both understand that and be informed enough to understand that such value is also what they are paying for. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
I agree with these couple posts.   

I am getting old and cynical, but I also know a lot (me included) of people that went to college that honestly didn't know what they wanted to do, it was just what was next.   It's odd that we make 18 year olds decide what they want to do with the rest of their life and make it really expensive and they are Fd if they choose incorrectly.    How many of us know people that changed majors a few times, took 6 years to graduate, ended up going to school but not finishing or not using the degree, etc, etc..  Yes, I get the argument that nobody is "forcing" them to do this after HS, but if we don't have honest dialogue and give HS students other choices like trade schools, etc.  while not forcing them we are for sure tilting the system toward that route for most of them.  
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I don't know if I fully support but just outright debt forgiveness, but I have said before I will never use as an argument against it that I paid mine so they should have to pay theirs.

They should be dischargeable in bankruptcy.  They used to be.  That only changed recently.  That is enough a debt relief system and is already in place.

Beyond that though, we need to have a serious debate in this country about education in general.  One of the underlying causes of the Trump factor was a complete destruction of a way of life for many people and the elimination of what they were told was the American dream.  It's almost impossible for a husband to work and care for his family on his income alone in a blue collar job these days.  And those jobs are only going to go away faster and faster.  We need more trades people, more people trained for the new economy that is coming and a truly hard look into the national security ramifications of not having enough of a trained workforce to do those things.

I would say we need to seriously consider most trade schools to be significantly low or no cost.  We need to look into state college being free as well, especially for STEM related degrees and training.  We need to revamp the way we do education because it's based on an economy and society that don't exist anymore.  All our colleges and universities are doing is pumping out a ton of people that get a great experience and are exposed to liberal arts, but have no actual skills for the current and future economy and world.  They are playing with old rules, old systems and pumping billions into them to make them flashier without any change to substance.

 
I think alot of people who identify themselves as R's simply feel "if it didn't happen for me, it shouldn't happen for (usually) these younger people".  

D's floating the narrative of a BIG might syphon a good portion of those people over to their side. 

 
Thunderlips said:
I think alot of people who identify themselves as R's simply feel "if it didn't happen for me, it shouldn't happen for (usually) these younger people".  

D's floating the narrative of a BIG might syphon a good portion of those people over to their side. 
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I do see that argument a lot in the threads about education, poverty, and race.   

 
Zow said:
Reflecting on the experience of both attending college and law school, I think what I found most lacking about the process is that nobody ever talked to me or explained to me the impact of a student loan and/or what I was actually "buying." In other words, it's almost as if colleges - especially liberal arts schools - need a re-branding so that the intrinsic and intangible values are placed more in the forefront. I do remember in law school some classmates of mine taking out the max in student loans (you could always tell which ones did because they were buying the group rounds at the bar) and it was pretty clear they hadn't given a single thought to the long-term implications of doing so and how that compound interest would come back to bite them on it one day. So, yeah, I do wish either high schools or some other mechanism would do a better job of explaining to those undertaking these econonic endeavors will cost later on. 

Somebody earlier posted that if the sole goal of going to college is to make money it may wind up being a -EV proposition for many to pay the full price and live on campus and pay for that using loans. I don't disagree (although I haven't actually run the numbers to confirm). But, I think the college/post-graduate experience should be looked at as much more than a money-making endeavor and potential students should both understand that and be informed enough to understand that such value is also what they are paying for. 
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And that's another thing - I don't know what other professionals would say about their education experience, but my B.A. was basically worthless for the career path it set me on.  My Masters helped a lot more and cost twice as much as my undergrad degree.  But my law degree is fundamentally worthless.  There isn't a single thing that law school taught me about being a lawyer.  Not a single thing.  It is a complete and total waste of money, time and resources.  All of which could be better spent going back to an apprentice system of training in the law which would reduce the cost of litigation for people thereby giving lower income people more access to the system to begin with, and actually train us better in being an actual lawyer and not someone who had to listen to law professors talk about theoretical cases from a century ago that simply don't matter for 90% of us on a daily basis.

 
Zow said:
There's also deferment (which, as I understand it, isn't that hard to qualify for).
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Probably isn't hard to qualify for because the juice is still running on the loan, and the lender know the student has to pay for it eventually, right?  

How does that effect a person's credit?

 
KarmaPolice said:
Probably isn't hard to qualify for because the juice is still running on the loan, and the lender know the student has to pay for it eventually, right?  

How does that effect a person's credit?
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1. Yeah of course. 

2. That I don't know. 

 
Yankee23Fan said:
And that's another thing - I don't know what other professionals would say about their education experience, but my B.A. was basically worthless for the career path it set me on.  My Masters helped a lot more and cost twice as much as my undergrad degree.  But my law degree is fundamentally worthless.  There isn't a single thing that law school taught me about being a lawyer.  Not a single thing.  It is a complete and total waste of money, time and resources.  All of which could be better spent going back to an apprentice system of training in the law which would reduce the cost of litigation for people thereby giving lower income people more access to the system to begin with, and actually train us better in being an actual lawyer and not someone who had to listen to law professors talk about theoretical cases from a century ago that simply don't matter for 90% of us on a daily basis.
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Oh come on, you seriously believe that? 

Law school absolutely taught me to see both sides of a coin and that lesson has been very valuable to me in my practice. Also, it does help to have a general idea about other areas of law such as general contract principles, equity principles, how income is defined, jurisidictional issues, etc. - although I will concede that probably could be more efficiently learned through something like the Bar/bri program instead of three years of in person Socratic method learning. 

 
Zow said:
Oh come on, you seriously believe that? 

Law school absolutely taught me to see both sides of a coin and that lesson has been very valuable to me in my practice. Also, it does help to have a general idea about other areas of law such as general contract principles, equity principles, how income is defined, jurisidictional issues, etc. - although I will concede that probably could be more efficiently learned through something like the Bar/bri program instead of three years of in person Socratic method learning. 
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I did debate work for my Masters.  The idea that law school taught me how to see both sides of an argument isn't a strong one for me at least.  I was already there.  And yes, all of the basic fundamentals were easily taught in Bar/bri.

 
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