Doubtingthomas
Footballguy
Because when your on a driveway you are on your way to driving and while on a parkway you are on your way to parking.
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Why should 0 yards and 0 points score 4 points? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Leonidas
- Start date
It seems to me there are two ways of interpreting the question, "Why should a player get four points if he had four catches for no yards and no touchdowns?"
1. Given that it's a PPR league, why should four receptions be worth four points?
2. Given that four receptions are worth four points in PPR leagues, why would anyone want to play in a PPR league?
The answers, respectively, are:
1. Because that's what PPR means.
2. Some people think it's fun. (If you're not one of them, feel free to join a league with different rules.)
Maybe the OP's point was that although many people think that PPR leagues are fun, there are about a zillion possible scoring systems out there, and many of them are likely fun as well, so why is PPR so popular? Why shouldn't we award points for first downs instead of for receptions, or why shouldn't we award points for receptions only if they're for positive yardage, or why shouldn't we award points for touchdowns only if they're not scored in garbage time, or why shouldn't we subtract points for an interception only if it was the quarterback's fault, or why shouldn't we award points for staying in bounds to force the defense to use a time out? And so on ad infinitum.
There might be a zillion different answers to those zillion different questions, but a decent default answer to most questions of that sort is that such complications would be tedious, would probably seem arbitrary, and would likely appeal only to certified public accountants.
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Buffaloes
Footballguy
If something's fun, that's not a good reason to do it?
Why are any of us playing fantasy football?
some of us play fantasy football ... others play ppr
Like in the school yard some kids play football some play jump rope
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
we arent talking FF or this hobby.
PPR is the discussion. Nobody is doing (relatively nobody) the ppr aspect for "fun".
its exactly why you have to divert to the hobby or FF in general because its a garbage reply.
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Reminds me of people who think they're so clever when they point out that white South Africans who emigrate to the US like Charlize Theron are technically "African Americans". Wow, you discovered that the terms we use for racial classification aren't 100-percent precise. You get a cookie. And because of this one anomaly, should we throw the whole term out stick to more accurate words like "black" and "white"?
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Buffaloes
Footballguy
actually, that's exactly what we are talking about.we arent talking FF or this hobby.
These guys are exactly right, its an arbitrary hobby based on an arbitrary game. But i'll give you a bit more if it helps you sleep at night- years ago RBs dominated fantasy football and with so few RBs and RB slots and so many receivers, somebody came up with the idea that it balanced the positions to award points per reception, making the game more interesting than seeing who drafted Marshall Faulk #1 and automatically won the league. Got it?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
more coy garbageactually, that's exactly what we are talking about.we arent talking FF or this hobby.
PPR aspect is exactly what we are talking about.
ok. So why 6 points for a 1yd touchdown?more coy garbageactually, that's exactly what we are talking about.we arent talking FF or this hobby.no, it's not. isn't that the reason ppl play this hobby?
PPR aspect is exactly what we are talking about.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Exactly... its NOT based on FUN. And anyone trying to convince you it is just pushing a sell job.ok. So why 6 points for a 1yd touchdown?more coy garbageactually, that's exactly what we are talking about.we arent talking FF or this hobby.
PPR aspect is exactly what we are talking about.
People choose scoring methods for perceived balance or fairness. Nobody says "lets do ppr for fun" or "lets do solo tackles at half point for fun".
I assume the implication is that you balance a league to make it more fun. Not for aestetic virtue.Exactly... its NOT based on FUN. And anyone trying to convince you it is just pushing a sell job.ok. So why 6 points for a 1yd touchdown?more coy garbageactually, that's exactly what we are talking about.we arent talking FF or this hobby.
PPR aspect is exactly what we are talking about.
People choose scoring methods for perceived balance or fairness. Nobody says "lets do ppr for fun" or "lets do solo tackles at half point for fun".
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Sure. <_<I assume the implication is that you balance a league to make it more fun. Not for aestetic virtue.Exactly... its NOT based on FUN. And anyone trying to convince you it is just pushing a sell job.ok. So why 6 points for a 1yd touchdown?more coy garbageactually, that's exactly what we are talking about.we arent talking FF or this hobby.
PPR aspect is exactly what we are talking about.
People choose scoring methods for perceived balance or fairness. Nobody says "lets do ppr for fun" or "lets do solo tackles at half point for fun".
But that doesnt change anything. Its an ingredient. Dont try to say that salt is fun because it makes the cake better. That's a sell job.
Is eating a tasteless cake fun? And if its not fun to eat cake, why would you eat it?Sure. <_<I assume the implication is that you balance a league to make it more fun. Not for aestetic virtue.Exactly... its NOT based on FUN. And anyone trying to convince you it is just pushing a sell job.ok. So why 6 points for a 1yd touchdown?more coy garbageactually, that's exactly what we are talking about.we arent talking FF or this hobby.
PPR aspect is exactly what we are talking about.
People choose scoring methods for perceived balance or fairness. Nobody says "lets do ppr for fun" or "lets do solo tackles at half point for fun".
But that doesnt change anything. Its an ingredient. Dont try to say that salt is fun because it makes the cake better. That's a sell job.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Hoss Style
Footballguy
Is this for real? I might be getting fished here, but here goes...Exactly... its NOT based on FUN. And anyone trying to convince you it is just pushing a sell job.ok. So why 6 points for a 1yd touchdown?more coy garbageactually, that's exactly what we are talking about.we arent talking FF or this hobby.
PPR aspect is exactly what we are talking about.
People choose scoring methods for perceived balance or fairness. Nobody says "lets do ppr for fun" or "lets do solo tackles at half point for fun".
Dont try to say that salt is fun because it makes the cake better. That's a sell job.
You say he's "selling" it. How so?
Taste = fun in this comparison. Take the salt out of the cake and it doesn't taste as good to as many people. Most couldn't explain why until they tried a cake with no salt - then they'd see. Those who liked the salt in the cake would go back to it.
Same with PPR. Most on these boards have played in more than a few leagues, I would think. Many of us enjoy the leagues with the "salt" as opposed to without it. It "tastes" better.
So if it's more fun to many of us with PPR, how in the heck is that "selling" it? In fact, most of us seem to have stated that we could care less whether you like PPR Leagues or not - hardly a sell job. Each to their own, in other words.
It sounds like you're using semantics to try to break down the PPR argument - and I just don't see it working. Trying to tell us that the reason we add PPR into our leagues isn't because it makes it more fun is silly. How the heck do you know?
And that's totally disregarding the real reason why PPR should be used - increased stats are always going to reflect what effect a player had on a game better than decreased stats. If PPR is imbalanced it's more because of the point value assigned to the reception instead of the fact that you give it value at all. What we should be hoping for is that FF Sites start to give us more indicators of a players value to score every week. Taking away a value we have makes absolutely no sense.
Unless it's fun for you that way - which I would totally understand. And I'm not trying to sell you on that.
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PPR was added to roughly equate the value of WRs and RBs in the FA pool and at the FLEX. Many leagues have gone down to 0.5PPR (incl. the ones I play in). As the real world evolves to be even more passing, I can see PPR going back away. I already play WRs at the FLEX in all 12-team leagues.
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Hoss Style
Footballguy
I play in leagues with a variety of scoring for PPR as well. I think leagues should adjust point totals for everything, not just receptions, on a regular basis. But I'm never in favor of removing a stat totally. If we think RBs are lagging then we look for a stat to add that will help them, or we can increase (or decrease) scoring for certain stats. Removing an indicator of a players performance is never a good idea, though.
With the automated tracking of scoring these days it's no more work to try to find another stat to support positions that may need it, or to adjust the scoring.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
CBS and MFL, a couple of the heavyweight sites, both support PPFDR.SaintsInDome2006 said:
Pasquino's article was nothing short of genius as PPFDR is by far the superior system. Yes, he's a quirky, cranky genius who toys with us mere mortals through the guise of various aliai.
John 14:6
Jesus is Lord!
Do players get credit for a first down on TD plays that are longer than ten yards?
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Why did Larry Fitzgerald score 14.80 points this week? He had 4 catches for 48 yards and a TD. That should only be 7 points (4 for the yardage and 3 for the receiving TD). Anyone who plays in a league where Fitzgerald got anything other than 7 points this week needs to email his commissioner and get this changed immediately since you're doing it wrong.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
Why doesn't the first round of every fantasy football draft include Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers?
Why is a top defense like KC this year not worth as much as a guy like Maurice Jones-Drew?
Fantasy football isn't meant to mirror reality. It's meant to make the games more interesting to people when you don't have a rooting interest. When I growing up for the most part football fans watched their local team and that was it. Nowadays you watch the Packers game because you need Aaron Rodgers to throw for 300 yds and 4 TDs even though you're a lifelong Bears fan.
Why is a top defense like KC this year not worth as much as a guy like Maurice Jones-Drew?
Fantasy football isn't meant to mirror reality. It's meant to make the games more interesting to people when you don't have a rooting interest. When I growing up for the most part football fans watched their local team and that was it. Nowadays you watch the Packers game because you need Aaron Rodgers to throw for 300 yds and 4 TDs even though you're a lifelong Bears fan.
cstu
Footballguy
It's not that it's perfect but an improvement over PPR.John 14:6 said:
While 22 points for 80 yards, a TD and 8 1st downs seems like a lot it's better than the 21 points Edelman got week 2 for catching 13 passes for 78 yards with no TD in regular PPR. Only 3 of Edelman's 13 catches were for 1st downs.
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ragnarok628
Footballguy
RE: using more stats, rather than fewer stats, necessarily means we are getting a better picture of how a player is doing, as an argument for PPR.
i've heard this argument a few times now ITT, and it's a complete fallacy. Any stats used to reflect football success would have to be impactful to football success in order for them to present a better picture. In standard leagues, the success of an 8 yard catch is already rewarded with (typically) 0.8 points. There's no need to add anything on top of that because the fact that it was a reception doesn't change how successful the receiver was, it only classifies that success. An 8 yard rush would have had the exact same impact on the game. The impact of an X yard reception is exactly equal to an X yard rush from the football perspective, always.
PPR makes the argument that an 8 yard catch should be worth more than an 8 yard run. If you want to make the argument that this is needed in order to balance RB vs. WR scores, well fine. It could be that Standard Scoring Fantasy Football, as a system, has a balance problem that is solved by implementing a PPR scheme. i could see that discussion bearing fruit. but there's no actual football reasoning for why X yard receptions should be more valuable than X yard rushes.
RE: you deserve a PPR for catching it instead dropping it.
this has also come up a few times... makes no sense either. you drop the ball, you get no points. you catch the ball, you do get points for the yards. the reward for catching the ball is built into the system already. the PPR only serves to inflate the value of receptions. Again, if the argument is from the game mechanics perspective, this is tenable. If the argument is that adding some PPR does a better job reflecting football success, it is not.
i've heard this argument a few times now ITT, and it's a complete fallacy. Any stats used to reflect football success would have to be impactful to football success in order for them to present a better picture. In standard leagues, the success of an 8 yard catch is already rewarded with (typically) 0.8 points. There's no need to add anything on top of that because the fact that it was a reception doesn't change how successful the receiver was, it only classifies that success. An 8 yard rush would have had the exact same impact on the game. The impact of an X yard reception is exactly equal to an X yard rush from the football perspective, always.
PPR makes the argument that an 8 yard catch should be worth more than an 8 yard run. If you want to make the argument that this is needed in order to balance RB vs. WR scores, well fine. It could be that Standard Scoring Fantasy Football, as a system, has a balance problem that is solved by implementing a PPR scheme. i could see that discussion bearing fruit. but there's no actual football reasoning for why X yard receptions should be more valuable than X yard rushes.
RE: you deserve a PPR for catching it instead dropping it.
this has also come up a few times... makes no sense either. you drop the ball, you get no points. you catch the ball, you do get points for the yards. the reward for catching the ball is built into the system already. the PPR only serves to inflate the value of receptions. Again, if the argument is from the game mechanics perspective, this is tenable. If the argument is that adding some PPR does a better job reflecting football success, it is not.
Pots
Footballguy
PPR is a joke of a scoring system, however it caught popularity at a time where RBs dominated the fantasy box scores and people who didn't get two good RBs felt they were at a competitive disadvantage even if they tried to supplant that hole with top players at other available positions (WR/TE). This was before the recent rise in the NFL passing game and rise in RBBC trends. To compensate, a simplistic approach of adding a point per catch was presented and caught on with the main focus of bringing WR and TE values up to their RB counterparts and a more complete team would be able to compete against one with two stud RBs. The effect it had on pass-catching RBs at the time was an afterthought, and for the time when it was implemented, it did it's job of increasing the value of top receivers closer to that of the top RBs. It was also was easier to keep track of than other stats since most places with box score and live stat tracking information had the number of receptions per player easily found and calculated.
However, with advancements in stat tracking capabilities, the growing popularity of fantasy football, increase of prevalence of the NFL passing game and RBBCs, people need to re-evaluate this now out-dated scoring system. People cling to PPR because it's what they know, they're used to it, and they think it's more sophisticated than the even more simplistic scoring system it replaced. In reality, some of the reasons it became popular are the same reasons why it should be altered today. Fantasy football has always been about fielding a team of individual players that perform the best for their team quantified by the stats people felt best represented these performances. Yards and Touchdowns are undeniably positive contributions to a player's team (although the exact quantitative significance of either can be debated) while receptions are not. There are times when dropping the pass is actually more beneficial to the team than catching it. Should a 7 yard loss on a catch equate to the same as a 3 yard run? Or in the Sproles example, should 4 catches for 0 yards be the same as a 40 yard gain?
I agree that scoring systems that are more depictive of a players actual success on the field (like the proposed Point Per First Down Reception) should be explored and eventually will be the new standard in leagues.
However, with advancements in stat tracking capabilities, the growing popularity of fantasy football, increase of prevalence of the NFL passing game and RBBCs, people need to re-evaluate this now out-dated scoring system. People cling to PPR because it's what they know, they're used to it, and they think it's more sophisticated than the even more simplistic scoring system it replaced. In reality, some of the reasons it became popular are the same reasons why it should be altered today. Fantasy football has always been about fielding a team of individual players that perform the best for their team quantified by the stats people felt best represented these performances. Yards and Touchdowns are undeniably positive contributions to a player's team (although the exact quantitative significance of either can be debated) while receptions are not. There are times when dropping the pass is actually more beneficial to the team than catching it. Should a 7 yard loss on a catch equate to the same as a 3 yard run? Or in the Sproles example, should 4 catches for 0 yards be the same as a 40 yard gain?
I agree that scoring systems that are more depictive of a players actual success on the field (like the proposed Point Per First Down Reception) should be explored and eventually will be the new standard in leagues.
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Fariq
Footballguy
Depends on the fantasy league rules. I have never playedin a league where first downs count for points.
I was only stating that under NFL scorekeeping offensive touchdowns are scored as first downs.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Yes. I'm not sure why you are asking this question.
Scoring first down receptions serves the same general purpose as PPR, though in a more limited fashion -- not all receptions are for first downs. In today's pass-centric offenses, it's a system that has very adequately narrowed the value gap between receivers and RBs without being adversely affected by rewarding catches that have little or no value (catch for no yardage or three-yard catch on third and five). A catch for a first down definitely has value.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
But no more value than a run for a first down. So why score it differently?
Fantasy football is not the same as real football, nor does it have to try to be. It's a game people play for fun with mutually agreed-upon rules. If people want to give a point per first down reception, fine. If people want to give a point for every reception, fine. If people want to give 40 points for post-sack celebration dances, fine. WTF cares how other people choose to score magic football? Find a league you like and be done with it.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
These days, with receivers rolling up bigger yardages than RBs, that's actually under consideration in our league (first down runs).But no more value than a run for a first down. So why score it differently?
Fantasy football is not the same as real football, nor does it have to try to be. It's a game people play for fun with mutually agreed-upon rules. If people want to give a point per first down reception, fine. If people want to give a point for every reception, fine. If people want to give 40 points for post-sack celebration dances, fine. WTF cares how other people choose to score magic football? Find a league you like and be done with it.
Of course people are free to choose the system they like best. I've been suggesting PPFDR as a method that keeps the best balance IMO. I realize that not everyone has been exposed to the brilliance of Jeff Pasquino like I have. I've actually been close enough to hand him a beer. :belch/genuflect:
cstu
Footballguy
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Right, that illustrates the point. You score fantasy football in a way that makes fantasy football enjoyable. It has nothing at all to do with how much real football value a play has. Otherwise first down runs would have always scored the same amount of points as first down catches, rather than being something your league is just now considering.
All of these arguments about how it's "better" to implement scoring that more accurately captures on-field value, etc., are specious. That's not what fantasy football is, or ever has been, about. Fantasy league rules are designed (and sometimes changed) to make the game fun for the people who have come together to play it. Sometimes, the goals of "being fun to play" and "accurately representing on-field value" overlap, so it's easy to confuse the two, but it's useful to recognize the difference.
Maurile nailed it upthread. Why should 4 catches for 0 yards equal 4 points in PPR leagues? Because that's what "PPR" means. Why do people play in PPR leagues? Because they think it's more fun that way. It's really no more complicated than that.
Army Eye
Footballguy
PPR has never made any sense to me, and yes I understand, if you don't like it, don't play a PPR league, blah blah, but it's getting harder to harder to find these leagues that don't use it.
This PPFDR stuff makes my head hurt. NO. It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Anything a receiver produces is already reflected in his yardage based on PERFORMANCE SCORING. And you are adding more complexity to a game that is thriving on the participation of very casual players. When you introduce a stat that means you cannot determine how many points your player has by looking at the box score, you've gone too far.
This PPFDR stuff makes my head hurt. NO. It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Anything a receiver produces is already reflected in his yardage based on PERFORMANCE SCORING. And you are adding more complexity to a game that is thriving on the participation of very casual players. When you introduce a stat that means you cannot determine how many points your player has by looking at the box score, you've gone too far.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
sdp1226
Footballguy
Hoss Style
Footballguy
I believe Ignoratio and I are on opposite sides of whether PPR should be used or not, but that's not really the point here - and I agree with him. Play what's fun for you.
As for the few posters above who say PPR doesn't actually reflect value on the field - that's wrong. Are we really trying to say that a catch is not impactful in a passing play? I know you're talking for FF purposes, and I still disagree.
There are two great posts above about how PPR makes no sense. This might shock both of you, but I actually agree with you in the scenarios you present. If you just drop PPR into a standard scoring league, with the way the passing game is piling on yards these days, then it's probably not a fair scoring system.
But I've never been a proponent of that either. A question asked earlier was why 8 yards by a WR is different than 8 yards by a RB. Do you play in a league where your QB gets the same point-per-yard as a RB or WR? I'd guess no. Yet you subscribe to "a yard is a yard."
But it's not. Because in FF we aren't actually getting any yards. We are just trying to find values for "real life" happenings in a game. QBs get TONS of yards, so we usually don't give them one point per 10 yards, like many leagues do for WRs. An INT doesn't get points in a real game without a score, but we give it points none the less. I don't know the type of league that you're in, though, so I could be wrong. Maybe you're in a league where the "a yard is a yard" theory is used, and you enjoy it. Cool - that's the point of FF.
Either way, it's absurd to say that more info doesn't provide you a more accurate depiction of what happens on the field. Arguing against that is futile. If you add in more info, like receptions, then you should adjust point values accordingly. PPR is not a "joke" as one poster put it - but it can make things unbalanced if you just drop it into your league without any thought put into it.
If you think WRs are getting too many points in a PPR league, then adjust points per yard for them (or the RBs). Or better yet, maybe someday they'll start tracking a stat that favors RBs - maybe "broken tackles" or something along those lines that RBs would have more of. Or maybe we just have to admit that WRs are getting more points now because they are more important to the passing game in this pass happy league. The game will change in 10 years and maybe another position will start getting boosted in points.
If so, we adjust our scoring to balance our leagues. Or we don't. Whatever is fun.
As for the few posters above who say PPR doesn't actually reflect value on the field - that's wrong. Are we really trying to say that a catch is not impactful in a passing play? I know you're talking for FF purposes, and I still disagree.
There are two great posts above about how PPR makes no sense. This might shock both of you, but I actually agree with you in the scenarios you present. If you just drop PPR into a standard scoring league, with the way the passing game is piling on yards these days, then it's probably not a fair scoring system.
But I've never been a proponent of that either. A question asked earlier was why 8 yards by a WR is different than 8 yards by a RB. Do you play in a league where your QB gets the same point-per-yard as a RB or WR? I'd guess no. Yet you subscribe to "a yard is a yard."
But it's not. Because in FF we aren't actually getting any yards. We are just trying to find values for "real life" happenings in a game. QBs get TONS of yards, so we usually don't give them one point per 10 yards, like many leagues do for WRs. An INT doesn't get points in a real game without a score, but we give it points none the less. I don't know the type of league that you're in, though, so I could be wrong. Maybe you're in a league where the "a yard is a yard" theory is used, and you enjoy it. Cool - that's the point of FF.
Either way, it's absurd to say that more info doesn't provide you a more accurate depiction of what happens on the field. Arguing against that is futile. If you add in more info, like receptions, then you should adjust point values accordingly. PPR is not a "joke" as one poster put it - but it can make things unbalanced if you just drop it into your league without any thought put into it.
If you think WRs are getting too many points in a PPR league, then adjust points per yard for them (or the RBs). Or better yet, maybe someday they'll start tracking a stat that favors RBs - maybe "broken tackles" or something along those lines that RBs would have more of. Or maybe we just have to admit that WRs are getting more points now because they are more important to the passing game in this pass happy league. The game will change in 10 years and maybe another position will start getting boosted in points.
If so, we adjust our scoring to balance our leagues. Or we don't. Whatever is fun.
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roadkill1292
Footballguy
ebsteelers
Footballguy
know your league rules before signing up is what i always say.
its not like its just standard for you and ppr for everyone else
its not like its just standard for you and ppr for everyone else
ebsteelers
Footballguy
its the reason wes welker is great in ppr or danny amendola
when they go for 10 catches for 63 yards but look like they had a great day but didnt do much outside of all the catches.
either way you know or should know what your signing up for when you start playing if you dont like ppr dont join that league style
when they go for 10 catches for 63 yards but look like they had a great day but didnt do much outside of all the catches.
either way you know or should know what your signing up for when you start playing if you dont like ppr dont join that league style
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
ragnarok628
Footballguy
Your comments suggest that factoring more information into the formula for calculating a player's FF points will necessarily provide a 'more accurate' reflection of how well a he did, and this is where your fallacy lies. This is absurd on the face of it, because obviously you wouldn't promote scoring every meaningless gatherable statistic... points per sip of Gatorade? Points per congratulatory pat on the butt? I'm not saying you couldn't find some new stat that we could both agree should play a factor, but a reception in and of itself has no value beyond the yards gained as a result of that reception, period.Hoss Style said:
I suppose it is technically accurate to say that more info provides a more accurate depiction of what happened on the field. That's great for when you're looking at the box score and you want to see who is most involved in the passing game or whatever. That's great to have an interest in how the game went as a football fan. But that extra info doesn't mean that we should award fantasy points for every piece of information we get, or that doing so will somehow more accurately model a football player's value on the field. In fact, it would be quite the opposite. Football is a game where teams have to advance the ball down the field and score. Ergo the only meaningful success one can have is to make progress down the field. All of the other pieces of information that you could gather which represent events that happened along the way (receptions, broken tackles, whatever) might reflect in greater detail what happened, and will have had their influence on the action on field, but measuring these things doesn't measure the success of the play. Only thing that does this is yards gained. Adding points for this and that incidental thing can ONLY serve to distort the relationship between fantasy points and actual success.
I wonder how many complain about kickers getting more than 3 points for 60 yard fieldgoals.
Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
Huh, much ado about nothing.
In one of my PPR leagues Sproles got me a big fat goose egg because we don't start awarding a single PPR point until the 5th reception, then 1 point per after that. 4 receptions = 0 points, 5 receptions = 1 point.
Many flags blowin' in the wind when it comes to variations on this fun hobby.
In one of my PPR leagues Sproles got me a big fat goose egg because we don't start awarding a single PPR point until the 5th reception, then 1 point per after that. 4 receptions = 0 points, 5 receptions = 1 point.
Many flags blowin' in the wind when it comes to variations on this fun hobby.
