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Why should 0 yards and 0 points score 4 points? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Leonidas
- Start date
ragnarok628
Footballguy
i bet coaches love this line of thinking... every play is brilliant! even when it goes for -2 yards!
You must really love this thread, what with bumping it 15 hours since the last reply.
Any particular reason you like it so much?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
I must confess the "fun" aspect MT bullspitted everyone with is starting to grow on me.
My long standing league will be voting to add in an extra bonus point to any player that plays a game wearing a eye-shield/visor. Why? Its fun!
My long standing league will be voting to add in an extra bonus point to any player that plays a game wearing a eye-shield/visor. Why? Its fun!
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Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
FWIW, I mentioned earlier in the thread the two very different local leagues I play in. They're both a lot of fun for different reasons. One of them uses antiquated rules and scoring from the early 90s, the other uses more "modern" features like PPR, flex positions, etc. The result is that an average weekly score in the former league is like 70-62, while the average score in the latter leagus is more like 135-124. Strictly from a scoring standpoint (and this is just my opinion, and nothing more), the higher scoring league is more fun. When my TE catches an 8 yard TD, in one league that's worth 3 points, in the other league it's worth 7.8 points. It's purely psychological, since my opponents are benefiting equally from the inflated scoring, but getting more points for the same play is more exciting IMO. But that's entirely subjective and YMMV (which is exactly the point).
The fact is that every scoring system has "flaws" if your goal is to simply to represent actual on-field value. Even in non-PPR, if a QB connects with a WR on a 30 yard TD pass, why does the WR get more points than the QB? That's not an accurate representation of their value contributions on the field.
QBs get fewer points per yard (and often per TD as well) than RBs and WRs not because they're worth less on the field, it's because fantasy football is a game wholly separate from on-field value, and people long ago decided almost universally that fantasy football is more fun if you give QBs fewer points per yard than you give to RBs and WRs. So anyone who plays in a league that awards WRs twice as many points per yard as QBs, for example, and then argues that PPR is "wrong" because it inaccurately represents on-field value, is being silly.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
If I made this topic, I'd want it to sink to the bottom too.Leonidas said:
ragnarok628
Footballguy
It is OK and reasonable and in some cases desirable to balance the relative value of the positions. I've never denied this; That's all that is happening when the QB scores less on a 30 yard pass than the WR does. This is not a flaw in representing on-field value, it's just a scaling factor. The QBs are on a different scale to prevent the position dominating the fantasy game too much. The relative value among players at the QB position remains consistent with onfield performance. PPR is not a scaling factor, it is a flawed mechanic that pollutes the scoring system by allowing an accumulation of points representing no value.
John 14:6
Jesus is Lord!
I've thought it might be fun to have a fantasy league where teams can't have players with duplicate jersey numbers on their teams...
Dentist
***Official FBG Dentist***
Why should a TD from a team that's behind 35-0 in the 4th quarter against a prevent defense:
a) count the same as an important TD in a closer game.
b) count against the defensive team when they no longer need to play shut-down D so they've given up and that score is not a reflection on their skill level in any way shape or form?
There are an INSURMOUNTABLE amount of problems with fantasy football. It's an EXTREMELY flawed game.
But there is no way to perfect it. It's like what they say about Democracy... it's the absolute worst form of government... except for all the others.
Come to terms with the fact that stats never tell the whole story and that the game is HUGELY luck based regardless of what people tell you and you'll enjoy life much better.
a) count the same as an important TD in a closer game.
b) count against the defensive team when they no longer need to play shut-down D so they've given up and that score is not a reflection on their skill level in any way shape or form?
There are an INSURMOUNTABLE amount of problems with fantasy football. It's an EXTREMELY flawed game.
But there is no way to perfect it. It's like what they say about Democracy... it's the absolute worst form of government... except for all the others.
Come to terms with the fact that stats never tell the whole story and that the game is HUGELY luck based regardless of what people tell you and you'll enjoy life much better.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
ragnarok628
Footballguy
if we were talking about doing the same thing, you'd have a point. But we're not, so you don't.
ragnarok628
Footballguy
Well if you believe that fantasy points are supposed to represent the players' skill level above all else, then it would make sense to not count 'easy' touchdowns. In my view fantasy points represent onfield success without regard to the 'difficulty' of said success. A 4th quarter TD in a game you're losing by 30 points may be a hollow success, but it still counts. I concede that there is no way to be perfect in reflecting success, but that doesn't lead me to a path where you just disregard whether or not how you're calculating fantasy score makes any damn sense with respect to whether or not the plays have value.
to those of you for whom this state of affairs DOES lead you down that path, fine. thats how you do it and good for you, just don't pretend that the PPR DOES make sense from the aforementioned 'reflection of success' perspective, because it doesn't. from that perspective. i'm reiterating this in the hopes you won't continue to ignore the premises from which i make these statements.
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ebsteelers
Footballguy
this thread is still going?
play in the scoring system you like,
no scoring system is perfect
no scoring system is exactly like the nfl
end thread
play in the scoring system you like,
no scoring system is perfect
no scoring system is exactly like the nfl
end thread
A good defensive coach will pick up on this and allow the offense to turn their negative play into a huge gain therefor throwing off the rest of the offensive script.
Jeremy
Footballguy
Yeah, every time I see a completed pass for no yards or negative yards, I think "well, it's a positive play in PPR leagues". A swing pass for no gain is the same as a 10 yard run. I can't get past it enough to play in PPR leagues. It just bugs me. I might be able to get behind giving points for receptions that result in first downs, but not for just catching the ball.
You may just be making a point for the sake of making a point, but if you're truly interested in finding a more effective way to value what happens on the field, given the context of time/score/down/distance etc, you should look at what's being done with advanced metrics like EPA and WPA. Having a fantasy league that's scored using one of these metrics would be fascinating (IMO).
In the WPA world, a 10 yard run @ midfield late in the fourth quarter of a tie game might be worth more than an 80-yard TD on the first play of the game. (Not sure if that's true, but in principle it could be.) That 10 yard run would definitely be worth more than that garbage-time TD in your hypothetical 35-0 game.
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ebsteelers
Footballguy
would be an interesting league... how the hell it would be scored would be interesting as well.. i guess those metrics decide what is more important than what?
The bolded is most certainly not true. Fantasy football is clearly trying to mimic the value of what happens on the field. The point is, awarding points per reception is a poor way to do so.
As to your point about the relative value of yards from different positions, it's obviously done to weight the positions such that their relative value is in the same ballpark, thereby making all positions valuable, thereby making the game more enjoyable. If all yards (passing, rushing, receiving) were worth the same points, then most years the league would be won by whomever drafted Peyton Manning. Pretty anti-climatic, huh?
Both WPA (Win Probability Added) and EPA (Expected Points Added) are based on an analysis of reams and reams of historical data. Here's more. On WPA:
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/01/win-probability-added-wpa-explained.html
And EPA:
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/01/expected-points-ep-and-expected-points.html
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
The last hurdle you need to complete is to admit that the first and second paragraphs you wrote are contradictory. Then you are set!
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
This is directly refuted by the fact that PPR is widely used, which you claim doesn't mimic the value of what happens on the field. Fantasy football is not "clearly trying to mimic the value of what happens on the field" because that's not how millions of people play fantasy football.
Once again you contradict yourself. Is the point of fantasy football to "mimic the value of what happens on the field?" If so, then you and everyone else on earth that plays fantasy football is doing it wrong. The point of fantasy football, as it turns out, isn't to accurately represent on-field value. It's to play an enjoyable game with other people. That's why people generally use scoring systems that weight positions in such a way that makes the game of fantasy football more enjoyable to play, rather than using scoring systems that more accurately mimic the value of what happens on the field.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Every time a QB falls 6 inches into the endzone and gets 6 points vs tossing a perfect fade into the back corner of tge endzone from the 9 yardline for 4 points... I break something valuable in my home.
What I said was, receptions are a poor way to mimic the value of what happens on the field.PPR scoring persists in large part because of a widely held misconception that there is intrinsic value in a reception. The fact is that the value of the reception is defined by the yards it gains, and we're already counting that part.Ignoratio Elenchi said:
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There's no contradiction, because mimicking the value of what happens on the field and making the game more enjoyable by making all positions relevant don't need to be mutually exclusive.PPR scoring isn't useful for the former purpose, and isn't necessary for the latter purpose.Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Sure. And yet millions of people play in fantasy football leagues that award points per reception. Therefore, fantasy football is clearly not trying to mimic the value of what happens on the field.
No it doesn't. PPR persists because many people think PPR makes fantasy football more enjoyable. This idea that there's a "widely held misconception that there is intrinsic value in a reception" is purely an invention on your part. Do you imagine you're part of some elite minority of fantasy football players that possess the rare insight that a catch for no yards has no real-world value? Do you actually think it's a widely held belief that an NFL player who makes a catch for zero or negative yards should be rewarded because the simple act of catching the ball has intrinsic value? People aren't as stupid as you'd like to pretend.
No, they're trying, they're just going about it poorly.
When the simple act of catching the ball is awarded fantasy points, it pretty clearly follows that its because of a belief that there's some intrinsic value in that act.If you say PPR exists purely, 100% for the added enjoyment it provides, period, end of story, then we will have to agree to disagree, because I think it's beyond obvious that there's more to it than that.
Hoss Style
Footballguy
Well, maybe we just disagree in principle. It seems you want points only for plays that produce a positive result for the actual NFL team on the field. I look at FF with no real life team aspects at all - I'm drafting my own team and want each player graded on how he performs individually, regardless of how it affects the team he plays for. I'm looking to grade how the player performs at his position (and the skills that normally go along with that) and then translate that to points to help my FF Team.
Just a difference in philosophy, I guess. Either way works and can be fun, I would think.
Hear that folks? You're fantasy footballing wrong. Tighten it up.
Hoss Style
Footballguy
Hey, I must of missed the mailing - when is the vote for FF World President? I'd like to vote davearm out. No offense, dave - I just don't think ruling the Fantasy Football world is your thing.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Just to clarify, are you unaware how obnoxious your position is here? Or are you aware and comfortable with it?
No it doesn't. If you think it does, you should request a refund from your Logic 101 professor.
So you believe that PPR was invented and became wildly popular because at some point, people thought, "We aren't adequately reflecting the real-world value of receivers with standard scoring - in addition to being rewarded for yards and touchdowns, players should also be rewarded simply for the act of making a catch because making a catch has intrinsic value separate from the yardage gained on the play?" That's both silly and ignorant of the history of fantasy football.
Essentially, your position is that PPR is stupid and people are stupid and people use stupid PPR scoring because they are stupid. You sure that's what you want to go with?
The position you're attempting to shoehorn me into may be obnoxious, I'll grant you that. But of course you're misconstruing what I'm saying, either intentionally or out of poor comprehension.
People can do PPR because they think it's fun or adds enjoyment or whatever. I'm cool with that. Knock yourself out.
My point here is, the other common reasons for having PPR are misguided (reflect real-world values) or unnecessary (balance scoring amongst positions). You seem to think there are no other reasons; that PPR came into existence purely and strictly to "spice things up".
I reject that premise. Frankly, I think it's laughable.
Haha no worries Hoss. I don't want to be the commissioner of my league, let alone FF World President
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Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
I'm not shoehorning you into anything. You said:
davearm said:
Are you now backing down from those claims, or do you still believe that you are the arbiter of what fantasy football is and how people play it?
You haven't actually demonstrated that's a common reason for having PPR. You've simply set up the strawman that that's why people use PPR. You're arguing that people use PPR, not because it makes fantasy football more enjoyable, but instead because they're dumb and they think that a catch, in and of itself, has intrisic value and should be rewarded with points in fantasy football. Surely you realize that's a pretty obnoxious claim, and as I said it's ignorant of the history of fantasy football. PPR didn't become popular because, as you seem to believe, people are stupid and they're trying to mimic on-field value and doing it poorly. Most would likely agree that it became popular because under old-school standard scoring, and with the state of the NFL play at the time, people found that RBs were too dominant in fantasy football, and they found that this made fantasy football less enjoyable, so they changed some scoring rules to make fantasy football more enjoyable. And it turns out, lots of people found that PPR did make fantasy football more enjoyable, so it stuck.
On the contrary, you seem to misunderstand the reasons for PPR, and perhaps the reasons for any fantasy football rules at all. Their primary goal is to make the game of fantasy football fun. There are other objectives that inform those decisions - e.g. "I think it would be fun if we try to accurately reflect on-field value" or "I think it would be fun if we auctioned off players instead of drafting them in a serpentine order" or "I think it would be fun to award a point per yard and fifty points per TD so that our fantasy football scores will be in the thousands" - but the point of any of those decisions is "how would we prefer to set up our league such that it will be fun to play." Different people find different sets of rules enjoyable, that's why there's a lot of variation in scoring rules. Nobody's sitting there, miserable, subjecting themselves to a set of arbitrary fantasy football rules they hate just because they believe it's a noble pursuit.
What is laughable is the idea that there are leagues full of people who are genuinely attempting to create a system primarily designed to most accurately reflect on-field value (even at the expense of the enjoyment of the fantasy football game itself), but are so stupid that they believe a catch is ipso facto worth a point in addition to the yardage gained. That's effectively the argument that you are making, whether you realize it or not.
ragnarok628
Footballguy
@Ignoratio:
What i would object to here is that you are yourself making huge assumptions about why people play PPR. It's absurd to think that everyone does it for the same reasons. There certainly are those who, like you, take the very detached from reality view that all scoring boils down to meaningless evaluations based on whatever stats the league has a whim to consider. I know for a fact not everyone who plays PPR ascribes to that philosophy. I would guess that a large majority of people who play fantasy football of any kind feel as though the scoring is or should be meant to reflect their athletes' performance on field, even though many of them recognize that the abstraction is not and never will be a 'perfect' reflection of reality. People play PPR for all kinds of reasons, some of which may have nothing to do with whether they actually like PPR or have given any thought toward whether PPR is good or makes sense. If the first league you ever joined was PPR it might be all you ever knew. Just because a lot of people are doing something a certain way doesn't make that a good idea. I've had IRL discussions with people who think a catch really is 'worth something' and to them PPR makes sense. Those people are wrong, that is the point of myself and other anti-PPRers. There are a lot of them, they are out there, and they are wrong.
What i would object to here is that you are yourself making huge assumptions about why people play PPR. It's absurd to think that everyone does it for the same reasons. There certainly are those who, like you, take the very detached from reality view that all scoring boils down to meaningless evaluations based on whatever stats the league has a whim to consider. I know for a fact not everyone who plays PPR ascribes to that philosophy. I would guess that a large majority of people who play fantasy football of any kind feel as though the scoring is or should be meant to reflect their athletes' performance on field, even though many of them recognize that the abstraction is not and never will be a 'perfect' reflection of reality. People play PPR for all kinds of reasons, some of which may have nothing to do with whether they actually like PPR or have given any thought toward whether PPR is good or makes sense. If the first league you ever joined was PPR it might be all you ever knew. Just because a lot of people are doing something a certain way doesn't make that a good idea. I've had IRL discussions with people who think a catch really is 'worth something' and to them PPR makes sense. Those people are wrong, that is the point of myself and other anti-PPRers. There are a lot of them, they are out there, and they are wrong.
Of course you're shoehorning. You've ascribed terms like "stupid" and "dumb" to me. I've never said any of those things, or cast the sort of aspersions you're attributing to me.
To repeat:
Yes, fantasy football scoring is clearly trying to mimic the value of what happens on the field. That this is even up for debate argues strongly that you're just trolling here. Stating such an obvious truth doesn't anoint me "arbiter of what fantasy football is and how people play it". People can play however they wish. Those that use PPR purely for fun, good on 'em. If you're one of those folks, rock on. But those that use PPR in part out of a sense of fairness, or to better reflect the value of on-field production are misguided, because PPR doesn't advance either of these.
I reject your notion that no such person or league exists. That's ridiculous on its surface.
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MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
No he isn't. And he's being pretty patient with you too. Maybe you should say thank you once in a while.
ebsteelers
Footballguy
who does a hobby that isnt fun or bring them some enjoyment?
isn that a big part of fantasy football, obviously the goal is to win cash also
isn that a big part of fantasy football, obviously the goal is to win cash also
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
To repeat: It clearly isn't, because by your own claim PPR does not mimic the value of what happens on the field, and yet PPR is a widely used feature in fantasy football. So you're either taking the position that you know what fantasy football is and millions of people are doing it wrong, or you're mistaken about what fantasy football is. I'll leave that for you to decide which of those is the case.
PPR being fun is a necessary and, more importantly, a sufficient condition for people to use PPR in their fantasy leagues. Why do people think it's fun? It doesn't matter. Why do people think auction leagues are more fun than serpentine drafts? The NFL uses neither. Why do people assign 3 points for field goals from 30-39 yards and 4 points for field goals from 40-49 yards and 5 points for 50+ yard FGs? Are they all so "misguided" that they don't realize all FGs are worth 3 points in the NFL? Are they fantasy footballing "poorly?"
The point is that you can ascribe whatever motivations you want to the various rules we've all invented for fantasy football. But all of those motivations are secondary to the primary goal of fantasy football, which is to play a fun game. Find me one person who hates PPR but uses it anyway because they think it more accurately represents on-field value, and you have a point. But I don't suspect such a person exists. You are, of course, welcome to disagree.
Hoss Style
Footballguy
Oh man. Just when I thought we had come to an understanding that there is no "wrong" way to play FF, you have to add in this :
I'm gong to let Ignoratio take on the "PPR is wrong" argument, because he's doing a great job at it.
I'm just going to return to the "catch not being worth something" discussion. You seem like a reasonable guy, Rag. Maybe you're just having trouble seeing outside the box a bit? Look at it from my (and lots of other's) perspective - We are NOT trying to mimic what happens on the field as it relates to NFL Teams. Some of us are ONLY trying to guage individual performance of a position player, like a WR, where a catch most definately has value, and then apply it to our teams - not the real NFL teams. A guy has crappy hands? He gets less yards, less TDs, less catches, less looks from the QB and less plays run for him in the gameplan. To MANY of us, this is a very fun complexity to try track and predict, and then draft, waiver wire and trade on those observations made. In my humble opinion, FF is so far off from being accurate at determining a players actual value to a NFL team that it's useless to say that all FF Leagues must strive for that.
The "catch" stat is easily accessible. AND most FF Sites will track it. So we use it to see if the WR will catch the balls coming his way. And it makes the drafting of WRs even deeper because you have to factor in if the WR is looked to in the Redzone, or if he is just a high volume guy on short routes, or is a speedster who will get fewer targets but will pay off with another stat that non-ppr guys love - yards. Lots more strategy added in (which is fun for many of us) - all by just adding in a point value for receptions.
Personally, I think it's silly for people to say that players should score only according to how much they help their real-life NFL team and not solely the player himself. It might be silly to me - but it sure ain't wrong. It's right for some people out there.
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Nobody has said one way of playing is wrong. That's just more reading what you want to read, and not what's actually being said.
Play however you want to play, for whatever reasons you wish.
But if you think adding a point per reception makes your team's fantasy score better reflect real world value, just understand that you're incorrect about that. And there are people that think this way, despite ignoratio's unsubstantiated insistence to the contrary.
That's all anyone is saying.
Play however you want to play, for whatever reasons you wish.
But if you think adding a point per reception makes your team's fantasy score better reflect real world value, just understand that you're incorrect about that. And there are people that think this way, despite ignoratio's unsubstantiated insistence to the contrary.
That's all anyone is saying.
Hoss Style
Footballguy
Just to be clear, dave (I edited out that last line as you were posting) - I just have a problem with people saying PPR is wrong and that FF is anywhere close to reflecting what happens on the field - PPR or not. Not really the same discussion as you and Ignoratio are having.
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Nobody has said PPR is wrong. At least I haven't read it as such.
I hope we can agree that reflecting what happens on the field is one of several objectives. Two others (and there are surely more) are to make scoring across positions equitable, and to make the game fun to play.
On the first (reflecting what happens on the field), awarding a point per reception is of no use.
On the second (equitable scoring), the need to award a point per reception is no longer necessary, as the NFL has evolved. Uber-backs like Marshall Faulk and LT are no longer dominating leagues.
On the third (making it more fun), have at it. :thumbsup:
I hope we can agree that reflecting what happens on the field is one of several objectives. Two others (and there are surely more) are to make scoring across positions equitable, and to make the game fun to play.
On the first (reflecting what happens on the field), awarding a point per reception is of no use.
On the second (equitable scoring), the need to award a point per reception is no longer necessary, as the NFL has evolved. Uber-backs like Marshall Faulk and LT are no longer dominating leagues.
On the third (making it more fun), have at it. :thumbsup:
Hoss Style
Footballguy
Earlier in the thread people called PPR stupid, useless, etc. Basically saying it's the "wrong" way to play FF.
As for a catch not reflecting what happens on the field - when guaging individual performance it's useful to assign values to it. When guaging how it helps the actual NFL team the player is on - it's not as useful (although a player who catches zero passes sure would hurt the yardage totals).
As I've said in almost every post I've made - I enjoy the individual player performance - not how the player affects his NFL team. If that's still not clear than I'm not explaining it properly or I'm preaching to deaf ears (blind eyes?).
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